Discussion: Improving Okawaru

[Davion Fuxa]

Just a simple idea I had for Okawaru, maybe Okawaru should be inclined to like it when you have a chance to gain permanent allies. Find a Bottled Efreet? 100% chance that a Friendly Efreet will pop out to join you. Get a chance to Hire a Mercenary? Okawaru Pays the fee for you and you automatically get the Mercenary. Maybe even go so far that if you don't have an ally you can use an Okawaru ability to gift you an ally similar to how the Mercenary Card works but based on your Invocations.

Maybe for gaining the allies you get an initial boost to your piety for having them with you, and when killing stuff you don't suffer that much of an experience penalty when they get the kills. The flipside is that Okawaru still puts you under penance if you attack your allies for any reason, and if they die you suffer a considerably loss to your piety as opposed to now where it really doesn't matter when your friends die.

[some12fat2move]

We already have Beogh.

[Davion Fuxa]

There a distinct differences from Beogh (and Yredelemnul for that matter) with this idea on Okawaru:

A matter of scarcity - decks of defense with a mercenary card or bottled efreets are extremely limited
A matter of god gifts - this ability should probably be on demand and be closely related to the concept revolving Ashenzari's cursed gear
A matter of quality - your Invocations skill would determine how good a follower you would be calling to your side
A matter of quantity - one or two mercenaries versus a horde of followers
A matter of principle - letting your mercenaries die results in a substantial loss of piety

Basically you aren't a general or messiah leading a legion of throw-away followers like with the other gods under this proposal, but rather you are acting as a leader of a few irreplaceable troops, or if you wish you aren't leading any - the idea doesn't conflict with the current Okawaru playstyle where you could opt to lead no irreplaceable troops.

[brendan]

We avoid no-brainers.

An efreet might be hostile, unless you have high evocation. This gives the player a decision.
A buff for Okie is a nerf for evocation in this regard.

Additionally, there's overlap with Beogh's permanent allies schtick. His win rate over all versions is 0.4%. Okie's win rate is 1.8%, and Sif Muna's is an incredible 2.1%. There's no reason to buff Okie in this regard.

[danharaj]

It's definitely not fair to compare win rates between a god without a starter and a god that has a starter background.

[prozacelf]

I may be wrong, but I suspect that was meant as "Beogh is the god the layer had in 0.4% of total wins over all versions, vs. Okie's 1.8%, etc." Not "0.4% of all instances Beogh was taken were wins."

In the former case I see no problem with the comparison, as it would only take into account the last god anyway. I'm sure brendan can clarify that if he wants.

[Kate]

Why would the god who hates you having allies approve of you having allies?

[dpeg]

I have another problem with the proposal: many gods already rely in some form on allies (Beogh, Jiyva, Makhleb, The Shining One, Trog, Yredelemul, in a weaker sense you can also count Elyvilon, Lugonu, Nemelex, Xom). Furthermore, the only smidgen of flavour that Okawaru has is the ally conduct. Combining these two, you'll agree that allies shouldn't be added lightheartedly to Okawaru.

[Davion Fuxa]

We avoid no-brainers.

An efreet might be hostile, unless you have high evocation. This gives the player a decision.
A buff for Okie is a nerf for evocation in this regard.

Additionally, there's overlap with Beogh's permanent allies schtick. His win rate over all versions is 0.4%. Okie's win rate is 1.8%, and Sif Muna's is an incredible 2.1%. There's no reason to buff Okie in this regard.

The bottled efreet still poses a risk to your character in that if it dies you lose a sizable amount of piety under the suggestion. The idea here is to change the decision matter from one of the hostile/non-hostile summon to that of gaining a Mercenary on hand that could die and make you lose a lot piety or be left alone to avoid that happening. If desired too, you could just make Invocations or Piety influence the chance that the efreet won't be hostile much like Evocations would if Invocations or Piety is higher.

As for overlap with Beogh (and again Yredelemnul) you are dealing with permanent allies, but it is of a far lesser scale and scope to it.

Why would the god who hates you having allies approve of you having allies?

Why does Okawaru hate you having allies but care so much about you attacking or losing them when they are around? It doesn't really scream to me that Okawaru has to hate you for having allies just because he dislikes it when you attacking them or let them die, and it does more to make Okawaru's bad side show which it currently really never does in most games.

I have another problem with the proposal: many gods already rely in some form on allies (Beogh, Jiyva, Makhleb, The Shining One, Trog, Yredelemul, in a weaker sense you can also count Elyvilon, Lugonu, Nemelex, Xom). Furthermore, the only smidgen of flavour that Okawaru has is the ally conduct. Combining these two, you'll agree that allies shouldn't be added lightheartedly to Okawaru.

The thing though is that none of these God's really care however if you let those allies die. With this idea you have a god that encourages you to bring allies to your side but at the risk that should you let those allies die he will take piety away from you. Of course though, if there is really a big problem with it, the idea could be mixed with one of those Gods - like maybe make it so The Shining One has some of these concepts - though he'd need to be redesigned in a few ways to make it work (like gaining piety is a problem and losing a sizable amount would not be a good thing).

In regards to the problem that this proposal combines Okawaru's main weakness with an ability that is subject to that weakness - I see it as more of a decision making concept. Do you risk losing piety by carting around an ally that can help you kill stuff and potentially keep you alive or do you forgo it? It sort of blends with the ideas behind Makhleb and Ashenzari in this context - those gods have restricts with possible hostile demons or having to deliberately restrict yourself to gain benefits. The only thing really different is that this really comes back and hits you in your piety - though gaining piety on Okawaru isn't that hard which is part of the reason I make the suggestion for him as the concept might see some use.

If all else fails, I should note that I guess maybe this could be used in the making of a new god or part of a new god for the randomly generated set.

[Davion Fuxa]

That would only be true if the benefits for having the ally in the first place don't outweigh having it die. In the case of Beogh Worshipers or Yredelemnul you have to worry about a hefty loss of experience from your followers killing everything and slowing down your characters progress; here it would not really be so since I'm also suggesting you obtain full experience when your ally kill things. If that isn't enough then perhaps your ally could get other benefits such as shared Heroism and Finesse (or whatever abilities on other Gods) which could improve your Mercenaries in combat and make up for the added penalty on losing your ally - another active choice you could have full control over and keeping to the theme of this idea (Beogh and Yred are completely passive benefits in regards to followers for the most part).

[BlackSheep]

what

[mumra]

That would only be true if the benefits for having the ally in the first place don't outweigh having it die. In the case of Beogh Worshipers or Yredelemnul you have to worry about a hefty loss of experience from your followers killing everything and slowing down your characters progress; here it would not really be so since I'm also suggesting you obtain full experience when your ally kill things. If that isn't enough then perhaps your ally could get other benefits such as shared Heroism and Finesse (or whatever abilities on other Gods) which could improve your Mercenaries in combat and make up for the added penalty on losing your ally - another active choice you could have full control over and keeping to the theme of this idea (Beogh and Yred are completely passive benefits in regards to followers for the most part).

Maybe you don't realise how extremely overpowered permanent allies already are and how there are already plans to nerf summons and allies in general because of this?

Honestly we have enough "ally-support" gods already and if there's a way to improve Okawaru's theme it's not this.

[dpeg]

Off topic but as we're discussing Okawaru anyway, let me regurgitate this old idea: instead of (just?) letting armours and weapons fall from the sky, Okawaru could improve your items. A simple approach: from time to time, apply a divine Enchant Foo scroll. In other words, if you commit to some item, then it'll become quite good in the long run.
Here's the kicker: Oki could do this also to artefacts! (If you think that's too bad flavour-wise, then we could restrict to artefacts with "Okawaru" in the name, which some/many/all of his gifts could get -- but I believe it'd be more interesting when working on all artefacts.) This would mean that under Okawaru, enchantmentally handicapped items with interesting properties will become useful, if tended to long enough.

That would keep Okawaru's current image as the god of trinkets, but it'd actually produce more interesting decisions that the current choice between "drop right now", "drop later", "oh, a keeper".

[rebthor]

I have another problem with the proposal: many gods already rely in some form on allies (Beogh, Jiyva, Makhleb, The Shining One, Trog, Yredelemul, in a weaker sense you can also count Elyvilon, Lugonu, Nemelex, Xom). Furthermore, the only smidgen of flavour that Okawaru has is the ally conduct. Combining these two, you'll agree that allies shouldn't be added lightheartedly to Okawaru.

You missed Fedhas.

Everyone always misses Fedhas

[dpeg]

rebthor: Oh, indeed! And it hurts all the more, as I am one of the godfathers for the plant god

[Jeremiah]

Off topic but as we're discussing Okawaru anyway, let me regurgitate this old idea: instead of (just?) letting armours and weapons fall from the sky, Okawaru could improve your items. A simple approach: from time to time, apply a divine Enchant Foo scroll. In other words, if you commit to some item, then it'll become quite good in the long run.
Here's the kicker: Oki could do this also to artefacts! (If you think that's too bad flavour-wise, then we could restrict to artefacts with "Okawaru" in the name, which some/many/all of his gifts could get -- but I believe it'd be more interesting when working on all artefacts.) This would mean that under Okawaru, enchantmentally handicapped items with interesting properties will become useful, if tended to long enough.

That would keep Okawaru's current image as the god of trinkets, but it'd actually produce more interesting decisions that the current choice between "drop right now", "drop later", "oh, a keeper".

I agree with this post because I like the word "enchantmentally."

Not a bad idea either...

[dpeg]

minmay: Interesting idea about passive Heroism -- I'll bring it up on the dev channel.

Good point about enchantment targets, too. I had passive selection in mind, but as you say, scumming is a threat. Here are some options I've been thinking about:

• When Okawaru decides that it's enchantment time, you get to pick an armour/weapon item. Advantages: simple, works, and player choice whether to go for the lesser enchanted, safer target (like with Enchant Foo scrolls). Minor drawback: Feels a bit awkward to direct your god's finger.
• An item becomes an eligible target for passive Okawaru enchantment if you carry if for long enough. When it becomes eligible, there should be a message "Okawaru notes your dedication to the plastic plate mail." and an inscription "plastic plate mail {Okawaru approved}". Advantages: passive, now with choice of what to carry. Drawback: there might be scumming potential I fail to see.
• Ability: "Take care of this item." Advantage: only one prompt (whenever you change target).

[galehar]

Nice, I like the enchantment idea too.
About heroism, I don't like the idea of making it permanent, it looks too much like Ash. Why not raise the cost instead?

[dpeg]

galehar: Yes, that's the other approach. If the cost is too low, so that the ability is spammed, we're better off with a passive effect. Alternatively, make the cost high enough so that players will not spam it anymore. Okawaru players would have to tell me if the two powers are generally used in unison. Are they?

[dpeg]

minmay, what's that? No way to unthank on the forum.

[nicolae]

Possibly stupid idea: Heroism passively builds when you kill something beefy enough to count for piety, like +1 skill per kill, building to the +5 cap. Or, you can go straight for the +5 cap by invoking Heroism before the fight but at a big piety cost, so if you run into a crowd and are confident you can deal with enough of the weaker enemies first you don't have to spam Heroism.

[nago]

galehar: Yes, that's the other approach. If the cost is too low, so that the ability is spammed, we're better off with a passive effect. Alternatively, make the cost high enough so that players will not spam it anymore. Okawaru players would have to tell me if the two powers are generally used in unison. Are they?

No, they don't: heroism is so a cheap that is used against every non-trivial enemy, while finesse has a quite high cost and it's used only against exceptionally dangerous enemy/situation. Obviously, when one uses finesse, uses heroism too.
For instance, the TrSu of minmay used heroism 249 times, while 23 times finesse. For other similar examples, the last 3 runes victories with Oka had: 287 heroism / 7 finesse (GhMo), 181/5 (MuHu), 289/19 (CeMo).


Anyway, I don't think increasing the cost of heroism is the best idea: now it's good because it's really cheap. If its cost is raised, up the point that it isn't no more possible to spam it, it would loses much of his appeal, because the bonus it grants aren't so huge to justify an actual piety cost.

Generally speaking, I believe Oka is good and still a decent alternative to stronger gods (Trog, Makheleb, ...) only because you can spam heroism early on. when the game is harder and +5 to fighting skills is a significant bonus, while later on is a nice thing to use but nothing transcendent (sure, you can save to train some skill up to 27, but the benefits are much less significant).

If this ability is nerfed, Oka became quite a crappy God - who cares if finesse can be used later on - a source of haste, which is still better than finesse in 95% of the situations, is usually found by the time you can use frequently finesse - and his gift are totally random and usually crap anyway, so nobody consider them when choosing the god.

Ninja'ed by minmay, but I explained things a little more so whatever.

[dpeg]

nicolae: I like that! When I suggested my preferred Okawaru remake (and got it all wrong, as usual, by promoting two new mechanics), one part was fluctuation. Your proposal captures that nicely -- it reminds of chaining in arcade games and would fit very well with a killing god, in my opinion.

nago: Thanks for explanation. Then again, nothing's fixed and if something like my enchantment idea goes in, then that's a buff again. (I'll concede right away that Okawaru needs a strong tactical appeal and gifts/enchantments are the strategic component of that god, which is less relevant.)

[nago]

nicolae: I like that! When I suggested my preferred Okawaru remake (and got it all wrong, as usual, by promoting two new mechanics), one part was fluctuation. Your proposal captures that nicely -- it reminds of chaining in arcade games and would fit very well with a killing god, in my opinion.

That would mean to manipulate every fight, to kill first low-threatening enemies and keeping stronger last: eg. I'd have to circle around pillars/corridor to kill first one-head ogre, then two head and then finish the ogre mage (ok, provided he hasn't spell for which I can't leave him at last) - I'd rather going to worship Makheleb every time, he's stronger and wouldn't cause me to play like a silly dancer.

nago: Thanks for explanation. Then again, nothing's fixed and if something like my enchantment idea goes in, then that's a buff again. (I'll concede right away that Okawaru needs a strong tactical appeal and gifts/enchantments are the strategic component of that god, which is less relevant.)

[little provocative mod on] Yes, but I don't think adding other silly mechanics to Oka is going to make him better: he is already picky about kills (only case in Pantheon) - but it's an automatic things, so ok - but giving him fancy way to activates his main and almost only good power, plus other fancier way to make his crap randart somewhat decent after somewhat times(should I carry this useless -4 cloak, this -2 hat or this -5 boots so in 50k turns became something decent?) isn't going to make him better, but only the God of headache and junk dealer. [/end rant]

[dpeg]

nago: Again, thanks for your comments. You have a lot more wins than I do, but statements like yours are what made me stop discussing designs with most players: strength is never fixed -- changing two numbers here and there, and Makhleb ends up much weaker than Okawaru. The question is not at all about power.

[nago]

nago: Again, thanks for your comments. You have a lot more wins than I do, but statements like yours are what made me stop discussing designs with most players: strength is never fixed -- changing two numbers here and there, and Makhleb ends up much weaker than Okawaru. The question is not at all about power.

I shouldn't have mentioned power - I've made the comparison because I won't like the idea to have Oka with absurd mechanics, like chain-killing to increase ability power and to have to carry useless junk only to make it viable at some point. I believe that would make "Oka's" uselessly complicated and would favorite scumming behavior.

[danharaj]

BTW, Finesse can be used way more often than you normally see with the piety change that went in like a year ago. IMO remove corpse saccing for Okawaru since there is already enough piety from kills.

[Davion Fuxa]

Off topic but as we're discussing Okawaru anyway

I changed the thread topic title to broaden it to just flat out improving Okawaru.

Anyhow, something to note about Okawaru is that he comes off as a mix of Active Combat Abilities and Passive Item Management Abilities. I'd be against this mix being changed with Heroism becoming passive but it is a tactical ability for combat that requires you to make a strategic decision on when to activate - same with Finesse. They should retain their active feature.

Talking about Finesse - something that I had sort of hinted to in the 'Proposal: remove scBlink and cBlink (except for Chei)' thread was perhaps to improve Finesse (and nerf Haste) we could swap their effects. Basically, make it so that Okawaru's Finesse ability works as the Haste effect does now while making the Haste spell works as the Finesse effect does now.

Also note that I am in favor if removing sacrificing of corpses from Okawaru - too many Gods have that as a piety gaining ability and Okawaru and Mahkleb are probably the first Gods where it could be limited.

[galehar]

I don't think nerfing heroism is a good idea. Without it Okawaru would do almost nothing.

Nerfing is not the same thing as removing. Current base cost for Heroism is 1. It's 4 for Finess. I believe we can try raising the cost to 2.

About heroism, I don't like the idea of making it permanent, it looks too much like Ash.

As I said, it's already like Ash because you have it on during all the times when it's relevant. Maybe you should have thought of this problem when you introduced the Ash skill boost a full version after Heroism!

It was differentiated from Heroism buff by being passive. But this is irrelevant anyway, we don't design the game by calling dibs on features. A passive buff fits Ash better than Oka.

[prozacelf]

Galehar: how is "cost" defined?

I'm not arguing Heroism, per se--I like it now. But how is Finesse a 4 and Heroism a 1? And how do things like Mushroom and Corpse Delivery rate?

If there's a site that I can look at, cool, but I had no idea that god powers had ratings in the least.

[Sandman25]

Galehar: how is "cost" defined?

I'm not arguing Heroism, per se--I like it now. But how is Finesse a 4 and Heroism a 1? And how do things like Mushroom and Corpse Delivery rate?

If there's a site that I can look at, cool, but I had no idea that god powers had ratings in the least.

You can see it in wiki (like http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Okawaru#Given_Abilities) or in source (especially if you are comfortable with C++) http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/ ... bl-show.cc (search for Ability_List)

[dpeg]

I won't like the idea to have Oka with absurd mechanics, like chain-killing to increase ability power and to have to carry useless junk only to make it viable at some point. I believe that would make "Oka's" uselessly complicated and would favorite scumming behavior.

I'd be against this mix being changed with Heroism becoming passive but it is a tactical ability for combat that requires you to make a strategic decision on when to activate - same with Finesse. They should retain their active feature.

And there is more. All of you are completely entitled to their opinions and I know that Okawaru is a popular god, at least in part because of the simplicity.

However, if I would listen to you guys, then there would have never been a healer god that pacifies monsters, nor the curse god. For both of these the initial reactions by many players have ranged between non-plussed and hostile, with reasoning really close to "absurd mechanics" and "should retain their feature".

As I keep trying to point out, the argument about power (minmay: "...of course is another huge nerf to an ability that I don't think should get one") is never one. The real questions are: is Okawaru an interesting god? (For this you have to decide for yourself what makes a god (un)interesting.) What effect will this proposed mechanic have on the actual game? Will it create more decisions? Will it increase or remove tedium? Please don't answer the question: is Okawaru a strong god?
For me, Okawaru has little appeal because of his pointless gift shower (that's why I brought up the enchantments idea) and tactically, the god is just a slot machine. Something like chaining (in any form) has a chance to make the god part of tactical battle instead.

And as always, new stuff can horribly go wrong. In which case it will be addressed, most of you have seen that. But sitting here and defending status quo without actual arguments is the no-risk/no-win approach, and I believe that the past has shown that Crawl can do much better.

[dpeg]

minmay: I have no idea what you're trying to say. We look at balance all the time, and the 0.6 heavy armour debacle got corrected in the very next version.

[snicka]

**** !!For brainsorming purpouses only!! ****

Increase heroism piety cost, but add another god power which is unlockable at max stars, has a hudge piety cost, and works as a manual (think of it as learning from warmaster okawaru) for a given skill, however, heroism stops affecting that skill afterwards?

Power / number of uses / it's existence whatsoever - debatable as I said, these are just my 2 pennies for brainstorm purpouses.

[galehar]

Yes, other balance elements can be adjusted to compensate but in the case of raising Heroism's piety cost, nobody has actually come up with such an adjustment yet.

Well, I suggested this nerf after dpeg's enchantment proposal. So there's that. Also, we can reduce finesse cost to 3 to compensate.
The claim that Okawaru can't be balanced with a cost 2 heroism seems dubious to me.

[Bim]

Regardless of the discussion on power and balance and whatever, the passive heroism and selectable enchantment makes Oku much more interesting. I may say that as I'm a long term player and have used Oku for about 15 million games, but I feel that a change is needed. I've always hated the random god gifts mechanic, as I feel as though I spend my entire game having to try on lots of mostly junk, which gets a bit tedious (trog is ok, because he just drops weapons/ammo). My only feeling is that Oku could very, very rarely drop a weapon or piece of armour as well (say 1/5 times of intervention) - I don't think this would hurt the balance and would keep his original flavour.

Passive heroism is great. Yes it conflicts with Ash a bit, but the mechanics are totally different and as mentioned, it's pressed before pretty much everything that isn't popcorn which makes it a bit of a no-brainer. Increasing it's cost is fine either, but I feel it'd still be spammed/a no brainer, it'd just be slightly less of one (as in, you'd probably just increase the threshold by a tiny bit - you'd still use it for all meaningful fights)

[Davion Fuxa]

The real questions are: is Okawaru an interesting god? (For this you have to decide for yourself what makes a god (un)interesting.) What effect will this proposed mechanic have on the actual game? Will it create more decisions? Will it increase or remove tedium? Please don't answer the question: is Okawaru a strong god?

A God can be made to be as interesting as the player wants it to be, but eventually developers should take into account if players will use it. Regardless of what questions you put forward here, you should eventually add on the 'real' question: Will Players even bother using the God?

Players have a fairly broad choice comprised of the other Gods as well so some direct comparison needs to be taken at all times. Specifically once you reach the Temple you have a selection of altars to choose from. If Okawaru fails to match up to other Gods in benefits and penalties (changed or not) for following him then players aren't going to pick him.

[cjo]

What dpeg is saying about power makes perfect sense to me. It isn't that devs shouldn't consider power. It's that if a core mechanic is good, the power can always be balanced one way or another. Pick the mechanic first, then adjust for balance.

I don't like the "chaining" mechanism because of the potential for tedious management of who you fight first. I don't hate heroism as a passive ability, but I prefer it as an activated one, for flavor reasons and to make Oka more different from Ash. Maybe heroism piety cost can be increased, but piety from kills could be also increased. Then players would have a choice between spamming heroism or racking up piety for gifts. Even with no other adjustments, I think that could work--some players like the gifts. But this could also go along with a rework of gifting.

I think it would be really neat if Okawaru gifts received progressive enhancements, as follows: At gift time: Oka rolls to decide upon weapons, armour, launcher, or ammunition (ammo only with skill>8).

Weapons:
1. If you are not wielding or carrying an Oka weapon gift, Oka will gift an unbranded +0/+0 weapon tagged/named as "Okawaru's <whatever>." Weapon type is based on your highest skill, or is random if you have no weapon skills. If you drop it, you become eligible for another weapon gift. If you carry it, Okawaru will progressively enchant it.
2. Oka applies a random brand. You can still drop the weapon to become eligible for a different one (unbranded +0/+0).
3. Oka applies progressive accuracy/damage enhancements. You can still drop the weapon to become eligible for a different one (unbranded +0/+0).
4. Okawaru "perfects" the weapon by making it an artifact. After this, you will no longer receive weapon gifts, ever.

Launchers: as weapons.

Ammunition: straight up ammo gift, no change from current system except that you will receive it less often.

Armour: some differences from weapons. Unlike weapons, you only ever get one gift per equipment slot. (It is reasonable to hold out for a good weapon base type, but not so much for every char to end up with boots of running.)
1. Roll for equipment slot.
2a. If you have not yet received an Oka gift for that slot, you get a +0 item. Body armour is biased toward heavy/med/light based on stats.
2b. If you have received an Oka gift for the slot, and are carrying/wearing an Oka item, Oka applies an enchantment bonus.
3. After the armour's enchantment cap is reached, Oka will apply a random bonus, from the same possibilities as floor drops (i.e., cloaks can get rPoison, body armour can get various resistances, etc).
4. Okawaru will "perfect" the armour by making it an artifact.

Optional: Wrath: you lose the gifts if you leave Okawaru. Alternately, they revert to non-artifact gear.

Flavor-wise, I like the idea of awarding long term service by progressively enhancing gear. This guarantees you neat gear, but doesn't gift overpowered items early on. It provides more tension between using heroism and maxing your gear.

EDIT: shortly after I posted this, I realized that it has a nasty dependence on spoilers. If a new player hung on to a hand axe and didn't realize it was shutting down the chance at a better base type, that's no good. I still love the idea of progressive enhancements, but this doesn't quite work as is.

[jejorda2]

How about this: If you defeat an enemy whose HD is high enough, there is a chance that Okawaru offers to destroy a piece of the enemy's equipment and give an equivalent piece of equipment in your inventory the brand or enchantment or base type of the enemy's weapon. If you say no, you can pick up the loot from the floor as normal.

You might see a prompt like, "To celebrate your defeat of the orc high priest wearing a +1 robe of resistance, Okawaru offers to forge your +3 plate mail into a +3 plate mail of resistance. Do you accept? Y/N" or "In commemoration of your glorious battle with The Ettin, Okawaru offers to take the -1 giant spiked club and replace your +4 whip of electrocution with a +4 giant spiked club of electrocution. Y/N"

[cjo]

How about this: If you defeat an enemy whose HD is high enough, there is a chance that Okawaru offers to destroy a piece of the enemy's equipment and give an equivalent piece of equipment in your inventory the brand or enchantment or base type of the enemy's weapon. If you say no, you can pick up the loot from the floor as normal.

You might see a prompt like, "To celebrate your defeat of the orc high priest wearing a +1 robe of resistance, Okawaru offers to forge your +3 plate mail into a +3 plate mail of resistance. Do you accept? Y/N" or "In commemoration of your glorious battle with The Ettin, Okawaru offers to take the -1 giant spiked club and replace your +4 whip of electrocution with a +4 giant spiked club of electrocution. Y/N"

Oh, very cool! Flavor-wise, I like the idea of linking gifts to defeated enemies. Gift timeout could still apply, and refusing a gift could reset the timeout the same as accepting it. But your example of a giant spiked club raises a concern: getting a branded giant spiked club is currently very rare. This is the one case I can think of where the unbranded item is very common, but the branded one very rare.

[Davion Fuxa]

I think the biggest problem with dpeg's idea stems from the fact that because it deal with a players inventory or equipment - the chance for scumming occurs as a result. It manages to eliminate the chance for scumming because players can't do anything to influence how the god works other then gaining piety faster or slower - outside of Amulets of Faith which make Okawaru like you more.

If Okawaru's gift giving is viewed as lucklustre then maybe the answer to making it better lies in improving his gift giving. Maybe have it so that players can request for or against certain types of gear to appear from Okawaru which in turns makes him gift that gear (so if you don't want darts, Okawaru won't give darts, and if you desire a pair of gloves for your empty slot, he'll only gift you that).

Another idea might be to make it so that Okawaru gives you a menu with a choice of items you can pick to use on your character, where you can select 1 and the rest are discarded.

[nicolae]

I think the biggest problem with dpeg's idea stems from the fact that because it deal with a players inventory or equipment - the chance for scumming occurs as a result. It manages to eliminate the chance for scumming because players can't do anything to influence how the god works other then gaining piety faster or slower - outside of Amulets of Faith which make Okawaru like you more.

If Okawaru's gift giving is viewed as lucklustre then maybe the answer to making it better lies in improving his gift giving. Maybe have it so that players can request for or against certain types of gear to appear from Okawaru which in turns makes him gift that gear (so if you don't want darts, Okawaru won't give darts, and if you desire a pair of gloves for your empty slot, he'll only gift you that).

Another idea might be to make it so that Okawaru gives you a menu with a choice of items you can pick to use on your character, where you can select 1 and the rest are discarded.

I think if Okawaru's gift giving needs to be improved it would be simpler to start by making sure that Okawaru doesn't gift you The -12 Gloves of Some Dumb Bullshit, rather than adding yet more menus and prompts. A baseline minimum value for gifts, however shop value is calculated for things, might increase the probability of getting a thing that a person might conceivably want.