Bad defaults


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 15:27

Bad defaults

I'm not going to bother with a long rant about why bad defaults are bad. You can probably google for one if you need the concept explained to you. This thread is just for listing current bad defaults, with suggestions for fixing them.

I'll get things started with:

autofight_stop = 30
Should be at least 50, if not higher...

hp_warning = 10
Much too low, and often you'll just go directly from 11+% HP to dead. I suggest 40%

auto_eat_chunks = false
show_inventory_weights = false
duh..

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 16:24

Re: Bad defaults

These are numbers you can look at yourself you know... and regardless of how high your HP are, if you are holding down Tab (as opposed to tapping the key rapidly) you're in for some trouble. Also I think auto_eat_chunks gives nausea. That usually isn't a problem but it is still very annoying on most races. I'm not sure on this one though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 17:03

Re: Bad defaults

I agree that show_inventory_weights should probably default to true. Why would a player explicitly choose to turn them off? They just hate having a tiny little bit of text with useful information in a usually empty part of the inventory screen?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 17:14

Re: Bad defaults

auto eat only gives nausea only if you also have easy_eat_contaminated. I don't see why it should be default anyway. It would just confuse new players (hey, where did my chunk went?).
I know many think show_weight should default to on, but I don't. Weights are mostly irrelevant in the early game, no need to burden (!) new players with them. There are enough information to show. Besides, in tiles show weight prevent wrapping of long names so enabling it isn't without a cost (could probably be fixed but the inventory code is messy). I think the default should be smart. Only show weights when encumbrance is >90%.*
I don't have any opinion regarding autofight_stop and hp_warning, but obviously, it's quite subjective and depends on how you play (hold tab or tap it?). The fact that you like a different setting doesn't mean it'd be better for everyone. You didn't give any argument anyway.
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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 17:23

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:I know many think show_weight should default to on, but I don't. Weights are mostly irrelevant in the early game, no need to burden (!) new players with them. There are enough information to show. Besides, in tiles show weight prevent wrapping of long names so enabling it isn't without a cost (could probably be fixed but the inventory code is messy). I think the default should be smart. Only show weights when encumbrance is >90%.*


Maybe only show weights on the drop menu? This is the only screen where I actively look at the weights of items.

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 17:27

Re: Bad defaults

Perhaps a better solution would be to work a text editor into local versions of the game that can be accessed from the start menu, so new players can easily find and change their own options. I'm not sure if the local documentation is enough to really understand what's going on though. (this might be more work than it's worth)

Bim

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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 17:42

Re: Bad defaults

I agree with eeviac, but I do think that a proper options screen would be really useful. I know that text file options are a RL standard and that it's not really that difficult to access it yourself, but some of the names are a bit unclear for what the option does, and an option screen would make it more accessible (and allow for new players to turn off some of the more annoying defaults for their play style without ferreting around for it in text files)
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Post Saturday, 6th April 2013, 19:50

Re: Bad defaults

Runes not defaulting to auto-pickup.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 00:50

Re: Bad defaults

Rast: Thanks for startin this, it's a great idea. Hopefully, some defaults will be better in due course!

I'll trust you on the others, but I have to second galehar on the inventory weights. While everyone who comments here is experienced enough to ignore item weights without even thinking about it, a new player is presented with a list of (at that point) completely pointless numbers. I think that making the game easily accessible for new players is important, and overloading on numbers is not helpful.
galehar's suggestion of a smart default is, well, smart. Might make a nice implementable?

Regarding an in-game options editor: that's much, much easier said than done. We're happy to finally have the autopickup list within the game, which in my opinion is the most relevant part in this regard. Instead of coming up with a full-fledged editor [1], I'd like to use this thread to ask you something related instead: which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally? Allowing players to toggle (or choose values for) these particularly "un-fixed" options seems a lot better to me than an actual editor.

[1] To quote developer Haran: "We're not developing emacs, but a game."

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 01:50

Re: Bad defaults

dpeg wrote:which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally? Allowing players to toggle (or choose values for) these particularly "un-fixed" options seems a lot better to me than an actual editor.


Travel delay maybe? There are times when -1 delay can be nice, but I wouldn't want it that way all the time.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 01:58

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:auto eat only gives nausea only if you also have easy_eat_contaminated. I don't see why it should be default anyway. It would just confuse new players (hey, where did my chunk went?).

There's a message when you autoeat.

I think the default should be smart. Only show weights when encumbrance is >90%.

Fergy wrote:Maybe only show weights on the drop menu? This is the only screen where I actively look at the weights of items.

Both of these are reasonable.

eeviac wrote:so new players can easily find and change their own options.

The whole point of having good defaults is so that new players don't have to all change the same old bad defaults to the correct options.

Tiber wrote:Travel delay maybe? There are times when -1 delay can be nice, but I wouldn't want it that way all the time.

This is more of a personal preference. I have mine set to -1 all the time, but I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what the "right" option is.

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 02:34

Re: Bad defaults

dpeg wrote:which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally? Allowing players to toggle (or choose values for) these particularly "un-fixed" options seems a lot better to me than an actual editor.

The benefits of a facility to present and change options would go beyond ease of making frequent changes. Exposing all the options in-game would make it simpler for new players to learn about the various things they can customize (and would hopefully prompt an overhaul of the options guide, as I'd hope to see help text incorporated into an options menu).

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 08:45

Re: Bad defaults

Blacksheep: You see, there is asking for the maximal possible feature, or starting with more palatable chunks. Some options are extremely convoluted. Others are just binary or ask for a number. If we identify some options of the latter type that players actually *do* change during a game, then that'd be a way of improving the game that's guaranteed to be useful and a reasonable amount of work. Personally, I'd rather not see a developer spend oodles of time on an in-game editor -- much more interesting to see new content.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 09:56

Re: Bad defaults

Rast wrote:
galehar wrote:auto eat only gives nausea only if you also have easy_eat_contaminated. I don't see why it should be default anyway. It would just confuse new players (hey, where did my chunk went?).

There's a message when you autoeat.

Which is extremely easy to miss when auto_eat happens during autoexplore (which is most of the time). Also, manually eating is a way for new players to get a feel for the hunger thresholds and nutrition value of food. Forcing auto_eat on them would make it much harder for them to learn this things.

BlackSheep wrote:The benefits of a facility to present and change options would go beyond ease of making frequent changes. Exposing all the options in-game would make it simpler for new players to learn about the various things they can customize (and would hopefully prompt an overhaul of the options guide, as I'd hope to see help text incorporated into an options menu).

I can only agree that an in-game option menu with online help would be an awesome feature. But it's quite a bit of work and interface and options are the kind of features the least fun to code...
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Bim

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 10:35

Re: Bad defaults

I don't feel all the options need to be in game (as some are convoluted/don't seem to do anything obvious) just some of the main ones which are either (as mentioned) changed in game, or ones which a player could easily discern the use of and want to change (like auto eat chunks).

My suggestions for in-game options:
    auto eat chunks
    auto pick up
    auto fight stop limit
    default manual/auto skills
    full screen toggle
I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

I think it's also fair to say that most people have a lot more trust and are more happy using in-game options, whereas editing text files can seem as though it might break something. Also, in game options can have a 'set back to default' mode for if you mess them up!
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 13:32

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:I can only agree that an in-game option menu with online help would be an awesome feature. But it's quite a bit of work and interface and options are the kind of features the least fun to code...

Yeah, this is totally true. You're not generating content, just making pretty menus. I wish I understood the menu code better after working on the high score thing, but it's still pretty mysterious to me.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 17:33

Re: Bad defaults

Bim wrote:I think it's also fair to say that most people have a lot more trust and are more happy using in-game options, whereas editing text files can seem as though it might break something. Also, in game options can have a 'set back to default' mode for if you mess them up!


In current versions you can clear the options file to reset everything to default.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 20:30

Re: Bad defaults

Another bad default: automatic skill training (why is this even still in the game?) instead of manual.
Instead, there should be an option (default true) to pop up the skill screen every time the player gains a level.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 20:39

Re: Bad defaults

Rast wrote:Another bad default: automatic skill training (why is this even still in the game?) instead of manual.

Why? You understand that we chose default options based on what is better for a new player right? How is manual training better when you're trying to learn the game?

Rast wrote:Instead, there should be an option (default true) to pop up the skill screen every time the player gains a level.

That doesn't make any sense and would be quite annoying. It would teach players that they can (or have to) change their skill training only on level up.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 21:00

Re: Bad defaults

While on the argument, another bad default is the fact that the training of many different skill is active: melee background should have just the skill relative to the weapon of choice, while mage background the relative magic school. Hybryd background maybe 2 skill active.

Btw, is there a way to disable in the rc file the training of some skill at beginning of the game? I couldn't find anywhere the option.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 21:22

Re: Bad defaults

But a new player has no idea which skill to train. Default option should make the game easier to play and learn, not easier to win. New players are trying to learn how to play the game and they can't learn everything at once. Please, stop suggesting that optimal settings should be default.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 21:51

Re: Bad defaults

As I mentioned, that's the distinction between the new player and the power user. I am fine with stating that our defaults are tailor-made for new players, and nothing else. Shall we do that, galehar?

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 22:55

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:
Rast wrote:Another bad default: automatic skill training (why is this even still in the game?) instead of manual.

Why? You understand that we chose default options based on what is better for a new player right? How is manual training better when you're trying to learn the game?

The default options typically involve training up four different skills at once, which is not good. Much worse though, is that automatic mode switches skill training around while you're playing, according to what it thinks you are or should be doing. That's why one of the first things vets tell new players is "switch to manual", even before "turn off everything except your weapon/spellcasting".

galehar wrote:
Rast wrote:Instead, there should be an option (default true) to pop up the skill screen every time the player gains a level.

That doesn't make any sense and would be quite annoying. It would teach players that they can (or have to) change their skill training only on level up.

Right now, the new player never sees that skill training screen at all (probably its in the tutorial).

When the skill training screen automatically pops up, it could have a line at the bottom (there's room) "you can hit 'm' any time to bring up this screen"

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2013, 23:23

Re: Bad defaults

Saying that all the skills are on by default is specious. Many of them are "on" in the sense that they're receiving less than 1% of your experience, whereas the more important ones are receiving the lion's share. Yes, not optimal; yes, fine for the neonate player.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 00:01

Re: Bad defaults

dpeg wrote:I'd like to use this thread to ask you something related instead: which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally?


As I've noted recently elsewhere, AUTO EAT.

Worst thing to happen ever is running from something, turning a corner having finally gained distance, and auto-chowing down and losing the gain.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 00:27

Re: Bad defaults

XuaXua wrote:
dpeg wrote:I'd like to use this thread to ask you something related instead: which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally?


As I've noted recently elsewhere, AUTO EAT.

Worst thing to happen ever is running from something, turning a corner having finally gained distance, and auto-chowing down and losing the gain.

How can this happen? I've only seen auto-eat occur when auto-traveling or resting.

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 06:11

Re: Bad defaults

I believe darts/javelins/needles/stone should be included in default autopickup also. It's unfortunate we have no way to autopickup first blowgun/sling. The former greatly improves survivability before lair even with thorwing 0, the latter can be very useful vs jellies when you have no way to run.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 06:32

Re: Bad defaults

I don't know about that. That stuff can pretty quickly weigh you down if your strength is low.

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 06:34

Re: Bad defaults

prozacelf wrote:I don't know about that. That stuff can pretty quickly weigh you down if your strength is low.


I disable autopickuping stones/darts/needles when I have about 50 each.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 06:37

Re: Bad defaults

Yeah, but it's been expressly stated that the defaults should be geared toward a new player, and a new player may not realize just how much all that little crap is bogging them down when they try to figure out what they should be dropping, or how many of them is reasonable to carry.

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 06:50

Re: Bad defaults

prozacelf wrote:Yeah, but it's been expressly stated that the defaults should be geared toward a new player, and a new player may not realize just how much all that little crap is bogging them down when they try to figure out what they should be dropping, or how many of them is reasonable to carry.


Yes, I agree.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 07:52

Re: Bad defaults

easy_open = false

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 15:05

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:But a new player has no idea which skill to train. Default option should make the game easier to play and learn, not easier to win. New players are trying to learn how to play the game and they can't learn everything at once. Please, stop suggesting that optimal settings should be default.


What about setting the default weapon to * focused?

This would still train every skill, but their weapon skill would be much better... This would intuitively teach them "train your weapon more!"

Maybe prompt user when they reach min delay: "Weapon is at min delay, adjust skills?"
Y = skills screen
N = null

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 16:36

Re: Bad defaults

Automatic skill training is fine, i would not recommend changing the default to manual nor messing with how it works.

Personally I recommend to new players to use automatic skill training because it is simple and it is very rare that it does very bad things.

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Post Monday, 8th April 2013, 21:14

Re: Bad defaults

minmay wrote:autofight_stop should be 0 IMO

I think that 0 is better than 30. Personally I have mine set really high (50 or 60 IIRC) because it trained me to stop and reassess the situation when I got to that point where you really need to see, can I continue to swing or do I need to start thinking about escape. 30 is too low (IMO) for that to save you the majority of the time. If it had been 0, then I wouldn't have the crutch but at least it wouldn't be a bad crutch!

I also agree that HP warning of 10 is way, way too low. I think mines at 40.
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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:39

Re: Bad defaults

jejorda2 wrote:
XuaXua wrote:
dpeg wrote:I'd like to use this thread to ask you something related instead: which are the options you'd really like to change in-game occasionally?


As I've noted recently elsewhere, AUTO EAT.

Worst thing to happen ever is running from something, turning a corner having finally gained distance, and auto-chowing down and losing the gain.

How can this happen? I've only seen auto-eat occur when auto-traveling or resting.


I get out of view, feel safe enough to auto-travel, then I ctrl-G to somewhere else or click on a staircase to auto-travel, especially when I know it's not going in the direction I came from, but instead NOM NOM NO- oh hey nice to see YOU again!

An easier solution would be if Auto-Eat kicked in after maybe the 20th tile auto-traveled or something instead of the first.
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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:43

Re: Bad defaults

prozacelf wrote:I don't know about that. That stuff can pretty quickly weigh you down if your strength is low.


If your strength is low, you're going to want that blowgun.
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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:44

Re: Bad defaults

XuaXua wrote:I get out of view, feel safe enough to auto-travel, then I ctrl-G to somewhere else or click on a staircase to auto-travel, especially when I know it's not going in the direction I came from, but instead NOM NOM NO- oh hey nice to see YOU again!

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:50

Re: Bad defaults

XuaXua: do you realize that autoexplore and G can make you turn around and go towards that enemy you have been fleeing from? If you know you need proper control of your movement, don't use the auto-movement features! Click-travel in tiles is essentially X-travel, I think that's the only case where auto_eat could cause significant problems.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:51

Re: Bad defaults

Thought this snippet would be useful considering the topic, I stole this from rwbarton. It makes your skill window open automatically when creating a new character so you may adjust your skills without telling the game yourself to open the window each time.
  Code:
{
local need_skills_opened = true
function ready()
  if you.turns() == 0 and need_skills_opened then
    need_skills_opened = false
    crawl.sendkeys("m")
  end
end
}

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 00:27

Re: Bad defaults

XuaXua wrote:
prozacelf wrote:I don't know about that. That stuff can pretty quickly weigh you down if your strength is low.


If your strength is low, you're going to want that blowgun.



Sure. But even darts pile on the weight a lot quicker than needles. I just don't find it that obtrusive to go pick up the ammo I want in the first place, but maybe that puts me in a minority.
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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 12:43

Re: Bad defaults

Galefury wrote:XuaXua: do you realize that autoexplore and G can make you turn around and go towards that enemy you have been fleeing from? If you know you need proper control of your movement, don't use the auto-movement features! Click-travel in tiles is essentially X-travel, I think that's the only case where auto_eat could cause significant problems.


I'm usually only running away from something encountered during auto-explore, which means when I ctrl-g somewhere, it's generally away from the unexplored area and the creature I'm running from. Most often than not, it's X,<,<,< (or >; whichever one is up-stairs) and then select the correct stairs, double-check the map and hit enter.

Also, keep that up BlackSheep and it'll help remove all the blue from your complexion.
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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 12:50

Re: Bad defaults

If you insist on using autotravel for fleeing, maybe disable auto_eat. Otherwise, I don't know what to say. BlackSheep is right, there's nothing to fix, you're just using it wrong.
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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:14

Re: Bad defaults

caleb wrote:Thought this snippet would be useful considering the topic, I stole this from rwbarton. It makes your skill window open automatically when creating a new character so you may adjust your skills without telling the game yourself to open the window each time.
  Code:
{
}


You should probably add a
  Code:
crawl.sendkeys("/")
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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 14:41

Re: Bad defaults

Or just set default_manual_training
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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 17:54

Re: Bad defaults

galehar wrote:Or just set default_manual_training

I think that the point of the lua above is that it also opens your skills up right away so that you can turn off things like stealth / spellcasting / whatever.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 17:57

Re: Bad defaults

The point of adding "crawl.sendkeys("/")" is to turn on manual training, which is unnecessary if you use set the option to true.

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