Identify scroll change

[Moose]

Just noticed that you can no longer use an identify scroll to identify a scroll of identify.

Not a huge deal, but just a little more annoying for those of us who read every unidentified scroll as soon as we come across it.

[Pereza0]

I don't get it?¿?¿?¿

If you already know something is identify, just inscribe it and don't waste a scroll. Even better, use it on an unidentified item

[BlackSheep]

I know that a scroll targeting fix or two went in recently. This is probably a result of that. It fixed a bug I reported where you can target a known scroll of identify at itself, wasting the scroll, but yeah, I can see how it messes you up if the scroll itself is your only unidentified item. It doesn't even work if you're carrying nothing but a stack of scrolls of identify. Just tells you you have nothing you can target with a scroll. That's a bug.

(FR: if you identify any two of the targeted scrolls, auto-id the third scroll)

[Moose]

Yah the scenario I'm painting is if the first item in the game you pick up is a scroll of identify, but you don't know that. You read it, and it asks you to select an item. Previously, you could select the scroll itself, thus identifying it as a scroll of identify. Now, you can only target an identified item, and you wont know that the scroll you just read was a scroll of identify.

What this boils down to, is that for the first 1-2 dungeon levels, I need to make sure I keep an unidentified mcguffin on me at all times in case I happen to read an unidentified scroll of identify. Only slightly bothersome, but seems kind of pointless.

If the intent of this change was to increase the difficulty of the scroll-id mini-game, then I guess it makes it a bit tougher.

[BlackSheep]

The intent was to fix other issues like targeting melded equipment while transformed.

[galehar]

Now, you can only target an identified item

You mean an unidentified item, right? Targetting an identified item doesn't do anything and doesn't id the scroll. There has been several tweak, the main change is that the selection screen is filtered to only contain stuff which can be affected by the 3 targetted scrolls: unidentified items, enchantable armour enchanted and wands.
The fact that you cannot select the scroll you just read isn't new. I just tested it in 0.11 and it was the same. It makes sense if you have only one scroll, because you read, it crumbles to dust, then you get the effect. However, it can be argued that you should be able to select it if you have more than one.
But this isn't related to the recent change. All it does it prevent you from doing stupid mistake and select items which are guaranteed to have no effect.

[BlackSheep]

The fact that you cannot select the scroll you just read isn't new. I just tested it in 0.11 and it was the same.

The scroll doesn't show up on the menu that appears when you read it, but it's still selectable by letter in 0.11.

[Tiber]

(FR: if you identify any two of the targeted scrolls, auto-id the third scroll)

In addition to that, I still think the last unidentified item of each type should auto-identify. Also, if you've identified one of the two healing potions and a monster drinks the one you don't recognize, it should identify.

[Moose]

Now, you can only target an identified item

You mean an unidentified item, right?

In the scenario I spun above, how could you possibly have a targetable unidentified item in your inventory other than the unidentified scroll you just picked up and read?

I had always thought that the targetable-but-unlisted thingy was just a bug that I had become used to, but it seems to have been "fixed", and the scare-quotes mean that by fixing it, they have made scrolls of identify unable to target scrolls of identify, period.

I haven't tested this, but I wonder what happens if you have a stack of two unidentified scrolls of identify, and read one. Is the other, then targetable?

And overall, is it the desire of the design team that the scroll that is actively being recited cannot be the target of its targeting effect?

[Pereza0]

Yah the scenario I'm painting is if the first item in the game you pick up is a scroll of identify, but you don't know that. You read it, and it asks you to select an item. Previously, you could select the scroll itself, thus identifying it as a scroll of identify. Now, you can only target an identified item, and you wont know that the scroll you just read was a scroll of identify.

What this boils down to, is that for the first 1-2 dungeon levels, I need to make sure I keep an unidentified mcguffin on me at all times in case I happen to read an unidentified scroll of identify. Only slightly bothersome, but seems kind of pointless.

If the intent of this change was to increase the difficulty of the scroll-id mini-game, then I guess it makes it a bit tougher.

But there is plenty of stuff to identify in the early game! In fact, trying to Id potions/scrolls with scrolls of identify with scrolls i often a good idea to avoid wasting them by quaff IDing them
Anyway, in that situation I always use it on armour or useful wands, that means the scroll might not be wasted if it was not identify.

I also think having able to target the scroll might lead players to think they had two scrolls when they only had one (or is the scroll being read hidden), leading to the possibility of wasting the scroll of they had already guessed it was ID.

[BlackSheep]

I haven't tested this, but I wonder what happens if you have a stack of two unidentified scrolls of identify, and read one. Is the other, then targetable?

And overall, is it the desire of the design team that the scroll that is actively being recited cannot be the target of its targeting effect?

If you're carrying a stack of one or 12, when you read the scroll you can't target the inventory slot it occupied. It makes sense for 1 scroll since as soon as you read it, it crumbles, but if you have more left, it should be able to target them.

[galehar]

(FR: if you identify any two of the targeted scrolls, auto-id the third scroll)

In addition to that, I still think the last unidentified item of each type should auto-identify. Also, if you've identified one of the two healing potions and a monster drinks the one you don't recognize, it should identify.

I disagree. While it might seem desirable that the interface shows whatever the player knows, going too far in that direction just introduces a lot of complexity. And new players wouldn't understand why some items are magically identified for reasons they don't understand.

[Pereza0]

I haven't tested this, but I wonder what happens if you have a stack of two unidentified scrolls of identify, and read one. Is the other, then targetable?

And overall, is it the desire of the design team that the scroll that is actively being recited cannot be the target of its targeting effect?

If you're carrying a stack of one or 12, when you read the scroll you can't target the inventory slot it occupied. It makes sense for 1 scroll since as soon as you read it, it crumbles, but if you have more left, it should be able to target them.

Yup, agree with this. As long as the game told you that stacks belongs to the item you are currently using

[Moose]

Perhaps make this a config setting that is defaulted to false? What I often end up doing is manually inscribing the targetable scrolls that are unidentified. eg:

1) Read a scroll, target an potion, and realize you just read a scroll of identify, and the game identifies it as such for you. YAY!
2) Read another scroll called ECHNARA, and it asks for a target. You choose your robe, and nothing happens. You now know that a scroll called ECHNARA is a scroll of recharging, but the game doesn't let you know that sooo...
3) You find a scroll named ECHNARA {tried on a robe}, and you have to either accept that clumsy label to read "scroll of recharging", or to make it easier on your eyes, you inscribe it, which is annoying to have to do.

if you had this flagged, folks would have smoother gameplay, and new players wouldn't be utterly confused by the auto-identification system.

[mumra]

I implemented the "fix" that caused this secondary issue. In some ways this goes to show the problems that too much nannying and hand-holding of the player can cause (For instance I'm of the opinion that autotargetting does not need to get any more sophisticated than it currently is, whereas others would like to see, for instance, area spells selecting a target that takes in the maximum number of enemies in the blast radius, or figuring out what coordinate is likely to cause the highest amount of damage, or knowing which monsters are highest-priority targets, etc. Do we really want the player to never have to make a targetting decision? I could ask: for folks that play FPS games, do aimbots improve your enjoyment of the game?)

Sorry, that was getting slight off-topic. The two relevant things that changed were:

1. When reading an unidentified scroll, if it brings up the inventory menu, that list is now filtered to only things that are possibly valid scroll targets: armour, wands/rods, and any unidentified items. There is an additional clause that the scroll you are reading gets filtered out. Previously everything in your inventory was listed even though a lot of items would never have a reason to use any scroll on them.

2. Previously you could press the letter of something that wasn't in the list, and the scroll would get burned up anyway (but not identify). Now you are completely restricted from selecting non-list items. This change applies to all inventory selection menus, not just scrolls - so it fixes a few slightly strange messages and cases that could result from mis-hitting a key etc.

Some other consequences (like the melded equipment thing) were just additional issues that I fixed while I was working on this.

The contentious part of this then is whether a scroll can be used on itself. I can see the argument that if it's a stack you should be able to use the scroll on the other copy that you have. On the other hand this is actually wasting a scroll anyway. This early in the game you are sure to a fairly high probability now that this is an identify scroll, so allowing you to use it on its own type doesn't really add up to much difference. I generally don't read-id scrolls until I have some other items I could use them on anyway (surely you had armour you could use it on ... or did you already identify enchant armour? ... in which case you're now even more certain that this was an id scroll...)

Looking again at BlackSheep's report (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5868) I realise that it did specify "Singleton un-ID'd scrolls". The thing here is that this doesn't fully fix the issue described in the report because it means if you have a stack you can easily waste the scroll by accidentally double-pressing the letter as BlackSheep did.

If we go with ">1 scroll and it can target itself" then probably the solution is a "Really use [scroll] on itself?" prompt.

[mumra]

I should add here that it's very easy to justify identify scrolls always self-identifying when you read them regardless of whether you even have an item to use them on, even if it's inconsistent with other scrolls - after all they are scrolls of identifying, surely self-identification is the first thing they'd do...?

[nicolae]

I should add here that it's very easy to justify identify scrolls always self-identifying when you read them regardless of whether you even have an item to use them on, even if it's inconsistent with other scrolls - after all they are scrolls of identifying, surely self-identification is the first thing they'd do...?

This definitely seems like the least complicated solution.

[galehar]

I should add here that it's very easy to justify identify scrolls always self-identifying when you read them regardless of whether you even have an item to use them on, even if it's inconsistent with other scrolls - after all they are scrolls of identifying, surely self-identification is the first thing they'd do...?

This definitely seems like the least complicated solution.

To a non-existent problem. Read'iding a scroll without at least an unknown potion is dumb anyway, should we really bother?

[dpeg]

galehar: Yes, probably. It's a minor bit, but someone who is really new to this will (a) not be confused, and (b) quickly learn that blowing the scroll only to identify Identify is not worth it.

[Tiber]

(FR: if you identify any two of the targeted scrolls, auto-id the third scroll)

In addition to that, I still think the last unidentified item of each type should auto-identify. Also, if you've identified one of the two healing potions and a monster drinks the one you don't recognize, it should identify.

I disagree. While it might seem desirable that the interface shows whatever the player knows, going too far in that direction just introduces a lot of complexity. And new players wouldn't understand why some items are magically identified for reasons they don't understand.

*Shrug* doesn't seem that complicated to me. You already compile a very nice list of all unidentified item types. Just count the number unidentified for that type whenever an item is identified, and identify if there's only one remaining. And a new player will figure out quickly enough that there are only two potions that can heal, so if a monster drinks a potion it must be one of the two. It doesn't seem any more complicated than weapon enchantments being identified once the player's skill reaches a secret number. I think players can figure this one out on their own.

[BlackSheep]

The problem may be small, but it's not nonexistent. The decision to change it is balanced against... what? Preserving the fun that is the scroll ID game?

[Bim]

To be honest, the amount of times that people have brought up the tedium of the scroll ID game, the more I think it should just be gotten rid of once and for all (as in, after you use any scroll, it automatically tells you what it is). Most scrolls do that now (I think a few more didn't use too), and it's only an annoyance to new players, as most moderately experienced players will already be able to broadly guess what a scroll is by quantity. I can see however that accidentally using a scroll of recharging (or even enchant armour) is a bit of a gamble, but it's not exactly an fun or tactical choice, it's just that if you want to absolutely be safe you use it on an unidentified non-randart armour, and one out of three it'll be a recharge.
The straightforward way of doing it would be to just have all scrolls identify on use, or, to make a smaller jump, it makes a lot of sense (as it is their job :p) to have the identifying scrolls identify themselves.

[nicolae]

it makes a lot of sense (as it is their job :p) to have the identifying scrolls identify themselves.

Even Nethack managed to get that right.

[dpeg]

nicolae: Now, you have opened the box and come up with the reason to end all reasons. Won't take long before identify scrolls identify themselves upon reading.

[adozu]

when i was learning i enjoyed the identify scroll game :\

[nicolae]

when i was learning i enjoyed the identify scroll game :\

Back when I played Nethack I used to look at the identify game as like a little mini-logic puzzle, but then I realized I wasn't really enjoying it in the roguelike context and if I wanted a logic puzzle I could play Spacechem.

[galehar]

There are already pre-identified unrandarts. I don't think it'd be that weird to new players.

It's hardly the same thing. Unrandarts are consistently pre-identified. With this proposal, scrolls would still be unid, but when you identify ?EA, suddenly this scroll inscribed with {tried on a robe} becomes a scroll of recharging. Or maybe it auto id when you use it, but in another game it doesn't. New players don't even know that there are 3 scroll types which target an item, so they would certainly not understand the behaviour. And it would make it harder for them to understand the system.

People often ask why weapons identify when they pick them up with throwing skill, but have you ever heard someone complain about it?

Well, I certainly don't like this inconsistency. But if you require to wield them to id them, it gets complicated (and off-topic).

Then there's the option of just, you know, telling them about it in-game.

What do you mean? Saying "You deduce that the scroll of foo is a scroll of recharging."? doesn't explain much. Still seems better to learn by experimenting, like so many other things.

I don't see how you can argue against interface improvements on grounds of internal complexity - there's not a clarity cost here, it's just doing work the player would otherwise have to do for themselves. Implementation difficulty would be an argument against it but I can't see how this could possibly be difficult to implement.

I didn't say internal complexity, I think it makes the interface more complex and the game harder to learn. And the improvement is not worth it IMO.

There is one specific behaviour that would have to change along with this: amulet autopickup. It currently picks up amulets if they are unidentified and otherwise doesn't. However, this is flawed as-is anyway (it picks up multiple copies of the same unidentified amulet) so it's probably due for a change regardless.

How often does that happen that you find a second identical amulet without having identified the first? And how annoying is it? You have to manually drop the second one?!? The system works fine as it is, I don't see a reason to rewrite it for such an insignificant problem.

if manual inscriptions worked on all copies of an item instead of just one stack, this would be lessened a lot

Indeed. This would be a welcome change. It should be relatively simple to implement and would address much of the complaints raised in this thread. Should apply only to potions and scrolls I think.

[Bim]

I don't think players would be confused with scrolls of identify self identifying. It could easily be done with a line which just says 'The scroll of identify also identifies itself!' or 'the powerful identifying magic written shows you the scrolls meaning'.

As far as recharge and enchant go with inscribing, to me inscribing was always a bit of a chore which would be helped by inscribing across all stacks although a "as this is the last scroll of it's kind, you realise it is a foo' wouldn't be too bad really, as after a few games you'll know there are only 3 scrolls with that mechanism, so it's just more tedium to ask the player to remember to inscribe.

[nicolae]

I don't think players would be confused with scrolls of identify self identifying. It could easily be done with a line which just says 'The scroll of identify also identifies itself!' or 'the powerful identifying magic written shows you the scrolls meaning'.

Nethack's phrase of "You have found a scroll of identify!" seems pretty simple and clear.

[BlackSheep]

New players don't even know that there are 3 scroll types which target an item, so they would certainly not understand the behaviour. And it would make it harder for them to understand the system.

Isn't this the very definition of a spoiler? The first thing I would tell someone asking about scroll identification is that only three scrolls prompt you for a target. Once someone knows which those are, it's absolutely trivial to deduce the identity of the third scroll.

Honestly, rather than introducing contorted or even trivial logic into the scroll ID system, scrolls should just ID when you read them. That's the direction we're already headed, isn't it? Enchant/vorpalise weapon scrolls don't require a weapon anymore, nor do scrolls of fear require a monster in LOS. We're left with the three curses, the three targeted (two of which you can identify by keeping an unidentified animal skin on you), amnesia, remove curse and sometimes random uselessness.

[Tiber]

With this proposal, scrolls would still be unid, but when you identify ?EA, suddenly this scroll inscribed with {tried on a robe} becomes a scroll of recharging. Or maybe it auto id when you use it, but in another game it doesn't. New players don't even know that there are 3 scroll types which target an item, so they would certainly not understand the behaviour. And it would make it harder for them to understand the system.

They might not know why it identified initially, but they'll figure it out quickly. That there are only 3 scroll types that require you to target items is not. exactly. a difficult concept. And what about my other idea, where if they have every scroll type identified but one, the last one auto-ids? I don't even see how a new player could be confused by that.

Saying "You deduce that the scroll of foo is a scroll of recharging."? doesn't explain much. Still seems better to learn by experimenting, like so many other things.

"By process of elimination, "RANDOM LETTERS" must be a scroll of recharging." Okay, that might not fit the game, but it's not hard to explain. It takes barely any experimenting to learn this, and after that, remaining unidentified serves no purpose since it's obvious what it is.

I didn't say internal complexity, I think it makes the interface more complex and the game harder to learn. And the improvement is not worth it IMO.

The game doing something for you makes the interface more complex? I disagree. It reduces the number of times I inscribe something, and makes the identify game more straightforward.

if manual inscriptions worked on all copies of an item instead of just one stack, this would be lessened a lot

Also would be great.

[Kate]

Honestly, rather than introducing contorted or even trivial logic into the scroll ID system, scrolls should just ID when you read them. That's the direction we're already headed, isn't it? Enchant/vorpalise weapon scrolls don't require a weapon anymore, nor do scrolls of fear require a monster in LOS. We're left with the three curses, the three targeted (two of which you can identify by keeping an unidentified animal skin on you), amnesia, remove curse and sometimes random uselessness.

Sounds about right to me. I just removed some unnecessary complication in jewellery identification, and would definitely agree that just identifying scrolls on use would be better than adding similar logic here.