Allow more vaults to place in Zot

[sgrunt]

While tinkering with my latest batch of vaults, I observed that Zot has a lot of vaults and minivaults that I've never really encountered in normal play (either my own play or through observation of others). This struck me as kind of odd - if we have so many memorable vaults, why is Zot:1-4 so often thought of as unmemorable?

Part of the answer might relate to some aspects of vault placement - right now, anywhere that's not D:20-27 has an 83% chance of not placing a main vault (those D levels have successively greater chances of placing such a vault, ending at 100% with D:26-27) and all levels that can place minivaults have a minimum of a 50% chance of not placing a minivault (with some exceptions having to do with purely decorative vaults).

Since Zot is supposed to be climactic, we want it to be memorable, yes? So why not let it place chunks of levels that aren't the bog-standard layout more often, especially when the end of D already does so?

If we really wanted to go all-out, we could have Zot:1-4 place main vaults 100% of the time (Zot:5 already has a 100% vault - the hall of Zot itself!), and possibly increase the probability of minivaults getting generated. Some quick testing on my part suggests that doing so would not generally burden the player too much above and beyond what they normally expect (though the chance of getting a stair vault would, of course, increase as a result of this), but that they will see at least part of a vault or minivault during their trip through Zot - something that should stand out to them.

What do you think - something worth doing or not?

[Davion Fuxa]

Stair Vaults in Zot deserve a lot more respect - anything that increases their appearances will add a lot more burden to the player. This could be tampered though by simply reducing the chance of vaults concerning stairs to appear though so I'm mostly all for this idea.

[dpeg]

More burden is good! In my humble opinion. I am all for the 100% Zot vault proposal. We can always dial back, if need be, but along the way we'll get useful vault feedback.

[tcjsavannah]

I would enjoy more mini vaults in Zot or really more mini-everything (I ran into the "Ancient Lich Garden" in my last game and thought it was a nice breakup of the ordinary Zot) but I'm a little skeptical of entire vault levels on Zot. Zot is already different than the main dungeon in look and feel and to see a vault in Zot that I've seen elsewhere on d:26 or d:27 would just seem odd.

[sgrunt]

entire vault levels

Encompass vaults don't place outside of the main dungeon and some branch endings.

I'm not talking about tagging vaults that normally generate elsewhere to generate in Zot; I'm talking about making the vaults that normally generate in Zot generate more often.

[njvack]

I didn't know it was called the "Hall of Zot." I like that name.

Moar vaults == moar good, IMO. Zot:1-4 as they are are surprisingly anticlimactic, especially after the generally super awesome content that preceeds it -- you've just done vault ends and the last few levels of D are generally very very pretty.

Speaking of Zot vaults... I was sad to see the commit removing vault-specific Oklob casters. Because, awesome.

[BlackSheep]

While you're at it, make that cage vault appear less frequently.

[mumra]

I'm working on some ideas for new Zot layouts. This is only part of the picture of course but having some unique layout generators helps make a branch more distinct and memorable.

[tcjsavannah]

entire vault levels

Encompass vaults don't place outside of the main dungeon and some branch endings.

I'm not talking about tagging vaults that normally generate elsewhere to generate in Zot; I'm talking about making the vaults that normally generate in Zot generate more often.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. In that case, I wholeheartedly endorse the idea. For what that's worth.

[Swiss]

I don't actually think the plain Zot:1-4 are entirely bad, but probably Zot could use a few more vault placements. I doubt that just increasing the number of vault spawns would have the intended effect by itself, though. It seems like it would be more important to ensure that the vaults are really really good and in line with the intent here, and I know that to me several of them just seem more irritating or pointless than difficult or exciting (For example, vaults of deep water are a terrible way to make Zot seem more climactic because of how wimpy the enemies spawning in it are for any character that's in Zot, and I know there's at least one of those). In fact, I've cleared quite a few levels of Zot, and I can't really think of all that many vaults that -do- have the intended effect here, although that's definitely in part because of the low number of vault placements to begin with.

Maybe more vault feedback is a good reason to do this, on that note; I know one of the reasons that (apparently) there wasn't much feedback on the now-removed oklob summoner Zot vault is that almost nobody even knew it existed in the first place...

[Guppyfry]

I vote yes to more zot vaults.

[danharaj]

Hi I wanted to rant about how much I hate Zot but I don't have the energy to do it right now. Short of it is: I don't want more vaults in Zot because that means more possible ways for me to get held up in the most annoying area of the game with the most annoying monsters in the game. Seriously why does almost everything in Zot have a gimmick it spams every other turn? Also I do not think the game should force Zot to be "climactic" because "climactic" just means "I got stuck at the end of the game doing tedious cleanup instead of winning."

[cerebovssquire]

...the last time I checked that was what "anticlimatic" meant. I'm not convinced that layouts and vaults alone are enough to make the admittedly quite bad ("tedious cleanup" describes it pretty well) Zot 1:4 interesting, but I think new layouts, vaults and monster overhaul would be better than monster overhaul alone. I would definitely appreciate effort going in that direction.

ending at 100% with D:26-27

first they brought us grunt_profane_halls, then this! or was it the over way around? either way, you are all horrible people

[evilmike]

ending at 100% with D:26-27

first they brought us grunt_profane_halls, then this! or was it the over way around? either way, you are all horrible people

It's been a 100% chance to attempt to place one for quite a while now. It's up to the game to actually choose what to put in the level though, this can range from encompass vaults to ones which only take a small part of the level.

[danharaj]

Oh, I should add that I actually like evilmike_ambush in Zot. It is quick, the game likes to spawn things that aren't draconian packs (making the fights much less annoying), and you can bypass it at your own peril if you want to. There's also the sauna vault which is cute. That one doesn't pose a challenge or try to be climactic.

[mumra]

Can I get some feedback on layout ideas:

Zot currently uses a very small set of the D generators - layout_basic, layout_misc, layout_rooms, layout_loops. These are all fairly similar in terms of architecture/density in that they produce lots of chaotic single-width corridors and junctions with occasional small rooms but mostly very little open space (they are each quite different overall of course, but in terms of what is in LOS at any given time you're mostly in narrow corridors). Contrast the open space of the final Zot vault.

This means Zot largely features the same corridor tactics and layout as most of the dungeon. And at a point when you're likely to have got some big spells online there aren't many open spaces to use them in.

What I'm working on are layouts consisting of quite large, geometrically regular/symmetrical shaped rooms with very little or no chokepoints. I'm wondering how people feel these kind of spaces will affect the branch.

If anybody wants to test the layout work I've been doing, check out the "new-layouts" branch in the Crawl repository, there are already a lot of new generators for most branches; and although it should mostly be considered work-in-progress any feedback would be great.

[crate]

just what i want, terrain to make me lose even more consumables to item destruction in zot

[mumra]

just what i want, terrain to make me lose even more consumables to item destruction in zot

Let me clarify with some screenshots (attached).

I'm not saying every level should be one massive homogenous room, nor even be as open as the Zot:5 vault. I'm not even saying there shouldn't be 1-tile-width corridors, just that they shouldn't be literally everywhere. There should always be some interesting structures which you can use tactically. The handful of layouts in these screenshots are output from some algorithms I'm playing with.

[Davion Fuxa]

Those examples feel too open for Zot. One of the blessings with 1-tile Corridors is that it gives you room to retreat from stuff - Orbs of Fires will get stuck behind stuff, or stuff chasing you will have difficulty catching you. Another Blessing is that it makes it possible for a Melee centred character to survive in Zot since everything has to fight you 1 on 1 in melee - ignoring all the Bolts that get flung through the enemy your in Melee with of course.

I'd be against removing 1-tile corridors like your examples seem to imply would happen - it will make 3-rune wins near impossible because it would skyrocket the difficulty of the Realm of Zot through the roof; not to mention it would making Melee Centred characters extremely hard to play.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Those layouts look pretty awesome, if you ask me. Except for that bottom middle one as it seems pretty bland in comparison. I hate the narrow corridors of Zot, particularly since those Hellfire spamming Draconians can sit behind a row of other Draconians and there isn't a lot you can do about it without certain spells. That and it turns the whole branch, except the end, into the same tactical situation over and over again. Plus it'd better prepare the player for the openness of the orb vault, which, presently, is a pretty jarring change.

But seriously, it's the Realm of Zot. It's supposed to be the final dungeon. It needs layouts that are much more impressive than narrow corridors with a few boxes here and there and five of those fit the bill pretty well.

[crate]

i guess my complaint is really about zot enemies and item destruction and not the layouts per se but yes every single layout in those posts will lead to significantly more item destruction simply because you can get hit by more than 1 drac breath at a time

[dpeg]

mumra: Your work is excellent, in purpose and in execution. I suggest that you freely share what you're about to do but don't care too much about the responses

For example, your new layouts get negative criticism when those folks really mean something else. Of course, you know (and crate should know too) that everything is up to changes. If new layouts make some monsters too aggravating, that will be felt by many, including developers, and it will be addressed.

[mumra]

Those examples feel too open for Zot. One of the blessings with 1-tile Corridors is that it gives you room to retreat from stuff - Orbs of Fires will get stuck behind stuff, or stuff chasing you will have difficulty catching you. Another Blessing is that it makes it possible for a Melee centred character to survive in Zot since everything has to fight you 1 on 1 in melee - ignoring all the Bolts that get flung through the enemy your in Melee with of course.

I'd be against removing 1-tile corridors like your examples seem to imply would happen - it will make 3-rune wins near impossible because it would skyrocket the difficulty of the Realm of Zot through the roof; not to mention it would making Melee Centred characters extremely hard to play.

Note that one of the examples actually contains 1-tile corridors (and the top-left layout has a ton of chokepoints as well) so I certainly don't want to imply that they would never exist. Here I'm showing some of the more open examples, these generators can make narrower spaces as well (and they're not even the final versions; I do want more intricate features). But I feel there should be a healthy mixture - corridor tactics are a valid option but if that's your only option by Zot then you'll have a hard time regardless (some Zot layouts can already be fairly open sometimes, it's just that corridors are much more the norm). I think "it will make 3-rune wins near impossible" is an exaggeration, but I do realise that more open layouts can significantly change balance and if necessary a lot of factors can be tweaked. Monster improvement is certainly never out of the question; but to differentiate monsters and give them more interesting tactics, better spaces are a bonus - how well would the new V or Abyss monsters work in layouts made entirely of corridors?

Anyway I do appreciate all feedback and I try to take everything into account - and look at how many iterations the V layouts went through before we got there

[dpeg]

I forgot to mention one thing: of the four cool example layouts (let me ignore bottom middle and bottom right, because I like them less), three are "not open" in the sense that you can provide tunnels for yourself by digging. The one with concentric circles does not have this feature, but that one is also less open than the others.

What I am trying to say, I guess, is that players have tools to counteract the "evil layout". It can easily happen that the layouts are still too evil, and that will certainly not go unnoticed, but I don't think that looking at them and saying "a-ha! no chokepoints, so abysmally cruel, ergo dismissed" does them justice.

[crate]

In seriousness I think that mumra's layouts are more interesting than what we currently have in zot. I would still dive zot because the enemies are annoying and dangeous.

Fighting in not-single-wide-spaces in zot is completely doable for any character that actually fights things in zot. You pretty much have to do it in Hall of Zot if you are fighting the things there, for instance.

[SchwaWarrior]

Let me clarify with some screenshots (attached).

Dear God Those dungeons are so beautiful they bring a manly tear to my eye. The upper left one is my faaaaaaaaaaavorite! If my Zot looked like that it would be the absolute most epic experience, I really would feel like This Is The Final Battle.

[galehar]

i guess my complaint is really about zot enemies and item destruction and not the layouts per se but yes every single layout in those posts will lead to significantly more item destruction simply because you can get hit by more than 1 drac breath at a time

By the time you reach Zot, you're quite likely to have found conservation. Maybe try wearing it?

Anyway, those new layouts look pretty awesome and will bring a welcome change to those boring room/corridor layouts.

[cerebovssquire]

Well the annoying thing is that in Zot you often, in a single fight, have to choose between wearing rCorr (and having items destroyed and being mutated), wearing rMut (and having items damaged and armour corroded) and Cons (having armour corroded and being mutated). Even if only two of these things could happen in one fight, then one amulet will often not help you, and in open layouts this will become even more of a problem. It's just that all three of these effects are really annoying and they (or a couple of them) should really be toned down in Zot. Sometimes you don't even have more than one of these amulets.
edit:
In addition, sometimes your amulet is your only usable source of rElec, or second pip of some other resistance, etc.

The new vaults would be great if the monsters were changed so that it was actually rewarding to do Zot 1-4. Right now, more often than not, you arrive in Zot:5 as a complete wreck after you do 1-4, and would have been better off just diving.
In my opinion, yellow draconians should be removed both as a player species (completely useless) and as a monster (one of the main reasons why doing Zot 1-4 is undesirable). That alone would help a lot.

@mumra Aside from the problems I named above, I like most of your layouts a lot, but I'm not a fan of the one at the bottom right (where it looks like two layouts have been squashed into each other). IMO you should focus on the symmetrical ones, they are great.

[mumra]

Thanks everyone, this is all very useful, especially hearing which ones people specifically like or don't like as this helps me focus on good features and tune the parameters.

It's probably interesting to note that these are all basically the same generator except the bottom middle. As I indicated this is just a small handful of stuff it can produce already and I'm only half finished, but I decided to pick a small set to show just some typical results.

Anyway this should start going in trunk once .12 is branched (and a ton of stuff I have for other branches too) so people who play unstable can try them out first hand. Ongoing feedback will be very much appreciated; e.g. layouts that work particularly well or particularly don't work for any reason, take a screenshot and give me your comments, this will be extremely helpful.

[Davion Fuxa]

In my opinion, yellow draconians should be removed both as a player species (completely useless) and as a monster (one of the main reasons why doing Zot 1-4 is undesirable). That alone would help a lot.

Even though I personally hate the Acid Blast quite a bit when I haven't found Corrosion Resistance, the bigger problem I see is that Draconians and Dragons breath at you too often. The Yellow Draconians do cause issues with armor being corroded, but if their breath attack (and every other Draconian and Dragon) was made to occur less I would personally be happy with them staying in (as well as the more open layouts being used) - I mean the fact that every monster in Zot has a gimmick is what makes it interesting; it just isn't interesting when they spam that gimmick.

[danharaj]

The other problem with draconian caller is that it summons so often that the battlefield gets swarmed with l's, many of them death drakes and fire drakes. Zot might as well be filled to the brim with clouds because it's hardly an exaggeration that every fight with draconians results in every visible square being occupied by a d, an l, or a cloud.

Draconians heavily discourage exploring Zot. I honestly don't know if that's a bad design. You're in Zot. The game is about to end. Why are you fighting dudes to get stronger? If you can get to Zot you can get the orb. Go win.

As for new layouts: Those layouts are aesthetically pleasing but I am skeptical that they are functionally much different from wide open spaces. The more open the space, the less control the player has over tactics, spacing, line of sight. The only layout I think I would like to try out is the first one. Everything else looks like "open space with some corners between them and sometimes you will get flanked from every direction". The new vaults layouts are great because they have a lot of interesting confined spaces and corners, the directions from which monsters can show up are constrained, and the new enemies make terrain more relevant. Any new Zot layouts should be designed in that direction.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Well, Zot has amazing amounts of XP if you do clear it and, you never know, a couple of skill points or an extra level or two could mean the difference between life and death when attempting to grab the Orb. Hence, I usually clear it if my character is capable of safely doing so (keyword: safely, before anyone jumps on me and says I'm a bad player because I don't dive). And even better, there's enough XP in Zot that, if you have a character who can handle it very easily, it can be worthwhile to clear it before working on the extended endgame (without touching the Orb, of course). My 15-rune DEVM did just that (including the Orb chamber itself) before going to Pan, Hells, or Tomb and there was enough XP there for me to be better prepared for those branches.

But then again, I'm that guy who went and played a FeVM of Jiyva in the tournament for fun, not for points, so I can't say with a straight face that my play style and, consequently, my experience in-game correlates well with whatever the norm is.

Anyway, on the other hand, some characters perform very poorly in Zot and should just dive for the Orb (I've been there too). But that can apply to pretty much any rune branch as well.

Also, at least for the top three and bottom-right, there's choke points, pillars, and/or corners for the player to take advantage of. Not as easily as the ever-convenient single-tile corridor, but the options are there. The bottom-left, with the exception of what appears to be a mini-vault, is much more functionally identical to open space, except not quite if you're outside of the center circle (nowhere to hide, but there's still only two real directions to travel except at junctions). The bottom-middle looks pretty much like those regular dungeon floors that's essentially a big spare filled with empty rooms, except the empty rooms are solid. So that one really isn't that new.

Regardless, it's Zot. I'm of the opinion that it should be more tactically challenging than "hide in corridor and pummel monsters one-by-one" since it's, well, the game's climax. And I'd certainly be happy if there was at least the possibility each floor's layout could force you to adjust your tactics accordingly simply because the terrain is much different rather than repeating the same thing over and over for four floors.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Who says it has to be one or the other?

[Mankeli]

Well the annoying thing is that in Zot you often, in a single fight, have to choose between wearing rCorr (and having items destroyed and being mutated), wearing rMut (and having items damaged and armour corroded) and Cons (having armour corroded and being mutated). Even if only two of these things could happen in one fight, then one amulet will often not help you, and in open layouts this will become even more of a problem.

What? If the problem is choosing between the amulets then isn't this actually good design? You are forced to make a choice between options on the basis of what is most important for you. I mean, I think mutations, corrosion and item destruction are all pretty useless if you can always just block them 100 %.

I have a different issue with Zot and it is the constant swapping of amulets. It's not that I can't help being mutated or corrored too heavily it is that you can avoid a great deal of this by constantly swapping amulets which is annoying.

About item destruction: I do think that sticky flame is a bit too much.

[cerebovssquire]

I think that good design means that there is a choice between good and bad that isn't necessarily easy to make, not between "screw you", "screw you even more", and "you should probably just quit at this point".

[dpeg]

To me, it seems that most people project their unhappiness with the Zot monster set on the layout proposals. Once we all have a good feeling how well the new Vault monsters work, it may be time to think about the Zot populace. As far as the layouts go, I believe that Zot is the place to aim for more openess.

[eeviac]

I won't have a problem with opening Zot up if the monster annoyances are addressed. As is, I map/dig/dive irrespective of dieselness.

[mumra]

Some of the generators are now in trunk. They're weighted quite low and I haven't removed the standard layouts - at least until there are a lot more new layouts and they've seen plenty of playtesting, and once they are coming up with a better range of spaces. I do agree with minmay that having every floor consist of huge open spaces wouldn't be any better than the current situation, there should be a good mixture, but overall I think more openness can work. I should note: if you are diving then you're likely to find the stairs quicker in open area without mapping (in a statistical sense). I'm not convinced every issue raised in this thread will actually play out the way people are saying, since the experiences are based on what happens in the existing cramped spaces, but we'll see...

[eeviac]

I'll attempt clearing newZot before extended on this DrJr I currently have in vaults, and see how it goes.

[danharaj]

To me, it seems that most people project their unhappiness with the Zot monster set on the layout proposals. Once we all have a good feeling how well the new Vault monsters work, it may be time to think about the Zot populace. As far as the layouts go, I believe that Zot is the place to aim for more openess.

Layout is meaningless except as context for enemies.

[eeviac]

ok this dude just cleared all of newZot as a 4runer (plus 10 or so XP cards/potions). I got 2 open floors - one grunt said was layout_basic, basically one big room with walls placed sporadically, and then I got a big stairs vault with moths of all kinds. It wasn't that bad because I didn't see an orb of fire on the open floors, and because I had the three important swap amulets. Had I been missing one of them, I would have been much worse for wear. I do not enjoy fighting drac packs outside of corridors.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-70-g45b42a8 (console) character file.

eeviac the Petrodigitator (DrJr)                  Turns: 107888, Time: 07:29:28

HP 241/255       AC 22     Str 14      XL: 27
MP  10/48        EV 24     Int 29      God: Nemelex Xobeh [*****.]
Gold 2299        SH 13     Dex 16      Spells: 17 memorised,  7 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +   w - staff of earth {!p}
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   (armour unavailable)
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +   q - +1 dwarf buckler
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   R - +0 mask of the Dragon {MR Acc+3 Dam+3 SInv
Res.Elec. : +       Clarity    : .   f - +2 cloak of Mental Paralysis {Int+2}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   o - +2 pair of gauntlets {Dex+3}
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   s - +2 pair of boots {run}
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   J - amulet of conservation
Saprovore : . . .   Flight     : .   E - ring of Guleub {+Fly rElec rF+ MR Int+3, !
                                     l - ring of Vitality {Regen HP+15, !p}

@: quick, incredibly resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: breathe noxious fumes, unfitting armour, stinger 1, poison resistance, AC +13
a: Breathe Noxious Fumes, Draw One, Peek at Two, Triple Draw, Deal Four, Stack
Five, Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, gossamer


You are on level 27 of the Dungeon.
You worship Nemelex Xobeh.
Nemelex Xobeh is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 74 of its levels.
You have visited 2 bazaars.
You have also visited: Labyrinth (2 times), Trove, Bailey and Wizlab.

You have collected 9863 gold pieces.
You have spent 7355 gold pieces at shops.


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can breathe blasts of noxious fumes.
Your lurid green scales are hard (AC +13).
Your body does not fit into most forms of armour.
Your cold-blooded metabolism reacts poorly to cold.
Your tail ends in a poisonous barb.
Your system is resistant to poisons.


   Skills:
 - Level 18.0 Fighting
 - Level 14.7 Staves
   Level 4.6 Crossbows
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 - Level 16.3 Dodging
 - Level 0.8 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Shields
 - Level 7.0 Traps
 + Level 23.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 12.0 Conjurations
 - Level 12.0 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Summonings
 - Level 14.0 Translocations
 O Level 27 Earth Magic
 + Level 19.1 Evocations


You have 7 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      #########.   0%          2    None
b - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      #########.   1%          6    None
c - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None
d - Phase Shift           Tloc           ########..   1%          5    None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #########.   0%          5    None
f - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      ########..   1%          4    None
g - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #######..    1%          1    None
h - Summon Elemental      Summ           #######...   1%          4    None
i - Shatter               Erth           #########.   3%          9    ######.
j - Flight                Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          3    None
r - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          2    None
s - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          2    None
y - Apportation           Tloc           ########..   0%          1    None
B - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          0%          2    None
C - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          2%          7    #......
D - Dig                   Erth           #########    0%          4    None
F - Haste                 Chrm           ########.    1%          6    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (27/27)            Temple (0/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:7
    Elf (3/3) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:9           Swamp (5/5) Lair:4
 Spider (5/5) Lair:3        Slime (6/6) Lair:8       Vaults (5/5) D:15
  Blade (1/1) Vaults:4      Crypt (5/5) Vaults:2       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3
    Zot (5/5) D:27       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Okawaru
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:9: *  D:13: (  D:15: ==+[%  D:17: (  D:21: (*/*  Orc:3: *  Orc:4: [/[*?
Elf:2: (

Portals:
Hell: D:21 D:22 D:23 D:24 D:25 D:26 D:27*
Abyss: D:24 D:25
Pandemonium: D:24
Ziggurat: D:15 (3610 gp)

Annotations
D:2 Terence
D:3 nulllogic's ghost, weakling MiBe
D:26 exclusion: 2 oklob plants

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - an uncursed short sword of distortion {Sonja, !w}
   (You took it off Sonja on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
Armour
 f - the +2 cloak of Mental Paralysis (worn) {Int+2}
   (You found it in a wizard's laboratory)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
 o - a +2 pair of gauntlets of dexterity (worn)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 q - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn)
   (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)
 s - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Crypt)
 R - the +0 mask of the Dragon (worn) {MR Acc+3 Dam+3 SInv, !p}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your accuracy (+3).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+3).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It enhances your eyesight.
Magical devices
 b - a wand of hasting (5)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 d - a wand of teleportation (9) {!p}
   (You found it on level 20 of the Dungeon)
 x - a wand of heal wounds (9)
   (You found it in a treasure trove)
 y - a wand of heal wounds (9)
   (You found it in a treasure trove)
Comestibles
 n - a chunk of black draconian flesh
 M - 4 meat rations
Scrolls
 h - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 p - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 r - 2 scrolls of identify
 u - 2 scrolls of silence {!r}
 O - a scroll of fog
Jewellery
 e - the ring of Tesyer Uze {+/*TELE rC+}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)   
   
   [ring of teleportation]
   It protects you from cold.
 l - the ring of Vitality (left hand) {Regen HP+15, !p}
   (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   It affects your health (+15).
 E - the ring of Guleub (right hand) {+Fly rElec rF+ MR Int+3, !p}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 J - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 K - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
   (You found it on level 4 of the Vaults)
 Q - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
   (You found it on level 23 of the Dungeon)
 W - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 Y - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
   (You bought it in a shop on level 15 of the Dungeon)
Potions
 a - 2 potions of agility
 i - 9 potions of curing
 j - 3 potions of speed
 z - 2 potions of resistance
 H - a potion of might
 I - 9 potions of heal wounds
 Z - a potion of cure mutation {!q}
Magical staves
 m - an uncursed staff of channeling {!a}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)
 w - an uncursed staff of earth (weapon) {!p}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
Miscellaneous
 g - a legendary deck of escape {drawn: 2}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 k - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 1 of the Vaults)
 t - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 v - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 20 of the Dungeon)
 B - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)
 C - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)
 D - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 4 of the Vaults)
 F - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 2}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 G - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 1 of the Crypt)
 L - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 N - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 2}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
 P - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 S - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 1}
   (Nemelex Xobeh gifted it to you on level 23 of the Dungeon)
 V - a crystal ball of energy
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)


..#.......#......#####.#####.####
#...#.%##...#.[..................
##.##%.###.##[######...#...#.####
 ####............................
  ###..####.....########...#...##
  #....######.........#####....#
  #............#####...........#
  #....###....##...##.#####...###
#####.........#.d...#............
..............#..\..'............
..#...#######.#.....#...#########
..#...#     #.##...##...#
..#####     #..#####[...#
###         #......[...##
            ########...#
                   #####


There are no monsters in sight!

Message History

The black draconian scorcher is almost dead.
The black draconian scorcher completely misses you.
You closely miss the black draconian scorcher.
The black draconian scorcher is almost dead.
You momentarily phase out as the black draconian scorcher's attack passes through you.
You closely miss the black draconian scorcher.
The black draconian scorcher is almost dead.
You hit the black draconian scorcher but do no damage.
You kill the black draconian scorcher!
You are firmly grounded in the material plane once more.
Things that are here:
a dagger; a cloak; a black draconian corpse
Things that are here:
a dagger; a cloak; a black draconian corpse
You start butchering the black draconian corpse with your knife.
You continue butchering the corpse.
Your repel missiles spell is about to expire...
You finish chopping the black draconian corpse into pieces.
n - a chunk of black draconian flesh
Things that are here:
a dagger; a cloak
(D) Dungeon        (T) Temple         (O) Orcish Mines   (E) Elven Halls   
(L) Lair           (S) Swamp          (N) Spider Nest    (M) Slime Pits     
(V) Vaults         (B) Hall of Blades (C) Crypt          (W) Tomb           
(U) Hell           (Z) Zot           
Where to? (Enter - D:27, ? - help)
Things that are here:
an orcish war axe; a cloak; a black draconian corpse
Things that are here:
a trident; a cloak; a grey draconian corpse
You feel less protected from missiles.
Things that are here:
a mace; a glowing cloak
Things that are here:
a halberd; 18 stones; a runed cloak
Things that are here:
a dwarven morningstar; a cloak; a yellow draconian corpse
There is a gate leading back out of this place here.
You see here a scroll of recharging.
You go up through the gate. Welcome back to the Dungeon!
There is a gate to the Realm of Zot here.
Drop what? (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, eeviac the Green Draconian Jester.
Nemelex Xobeh says: It's all in the cards!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Char dumped successfully.
Unknown command.
Save game and exit?


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Quarterstaff      |   104 |   168 |   366 |  1030 |  2092 |   899 |       |       |       ||  4659
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |       |   905 |  1958 |  1661 |  3555 ||  8079
       Unarmed           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    13 |    43 ||    56
 Fire: Blowgun           |       |       |       |    30 |     1 |       |       |       |       ||    31
Throw: Pie               |       |     2 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     2
 Cast: Flight            |       |       |     1 |     4 |     1 |     4 |     2 |     2 |    74 ||    88
       Blink             |       |       |       |     8 |    14 |    11 |     5 |     2 |     8 ||    48
       Apportation       |       |       |       |     1 |     5 |     1 |     1 |     1 |     5 ||    14
       Fire Brand        |       |       |       |       |    13 |       |       |       |       ||    13
       Summon Butterflie |       |       |       |       |    12 |     3 |       |       |       ||    15
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |   109 |    64 |    42 |    94 ||   309
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |       |       |    31 |    22 |    39 |    61 ||   153
       Phase Shift       |       |       |       |       |       |    16 |    25 |    47 |    92 ||   180
       Haste             |       |       |       |       |       |     5 |     6 |    13 |    23 ||    47
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |       |       |    42 |   101 |   620 ||   763
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     7 |    18 ||    25
       Dig               |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |    18 ||    21
       Stoneskin         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    41 ||    41
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    11 ||    11
Invok: Draw One          |     1 |    10 |     3 |    44 |    70 |   128 |    52 |    13 |    19 ||   340
       Triple Draw       |       |       |       |     2 |     8 |     9 |     9 |    19 |    26 ||    73
       Peek at Two       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     1 |       ||     2
 Abil: Breathe Noxious F |       |       |    11 |    20 |    39 |    17 |    14 |     9 |     4 ||   114
       Evoke Berserk Rag |       |       |       |     2 |     7 |       |       |       |       ||     9
       Evoke Invisibilit |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     1 |       ||     4
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |    12 |    11 |    19 |     3 |     4 |     1 |     8 ||    58
       Deck              |       |       |       |    19 |    39 |       |       |    24 |   118 ||   200
       Miscellaneous     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   568 ||   568
  Use: Scroll            |     3 |     7 |    18 |     7 |    14 |     7 |     5 |     9 |    26 ||    96
       Potion            |       |     1 |       |     2 |     5 |     3 |     6 |     2 |     8 ||    27
 Stab: Paralysed         |     1 |       |     7 |    15 |       |       |       |       |       ||    23
       Confused          |     2 |       |     4 |    31 |    41 |    32 |    12 |     8 |     9 ||   139
       Sleeping          |     1 |     4 |     1 |     4 |     4 |     4 |     4 |     2 |     9 ||    33
       Petrifying        |       |     1 |     1 |    12 |       |       |       |       |       ||    14
       Distracted        |       |       |     2 |     1 |     2 |     2 |     2 |       |     2 ||    11
       Petrified         |       |       |       |     3 |     6 |       |       |       |       ||     9
       Betrayed ally     |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Invisible         |       |       |       |       |       |       |     6 |    33 |       ||    39
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4



[mumra]

ok this dude just cleared all of newZot as a 4runer (plus 10 or so XP cards/potions). I got 2 open floors - one grunt said was layout_basic, basically one big room with walls placed sporadically, and then I got a big stairs vault with moths of all kinds. It wasn't that bad because I didn't see an orb of fire on the open floors, and because I had the three important swap amulets. Had I been missing one of them, I would have been much worse for wear. I do not enjoy fighting drac packs outside of corridors.

First up - sorry about this, but the version you were playing didn't have the new layouts - my commits went in after the nightlies, I should really have made it clear what I meant by "in trunk". So these open floors were definitely just standard layouts.

This is interesting in itself since it shows that Zot already can have a lot of openness, at the behest of the RNG. Changing to more open layouts would therefore not be such a huge change to begin with.

There's another point to make which is that if we make things generally more open then we can balance the monster set around this, rather than them being a challenge in corridors but a complete nightmare if you get an open Zot and don't have the right amulets.

I note you had Shatter - was it still preferable to stay in corridors and use Iron Shot?

[eeviac]

The clear was 100% earth staff/iron shot/mp channeling. Shatter ruins your cover while calling the whole floor down on your head.

[mumra]

Well, I've just watched two different players melee their way through some of the new layouts in Zot. These were some of the slightly more open versions. Both characters did absolutely fine, only at one point getting slightly overconfident with tab did one of them get down to low health against a group of dracs and they still made it out alive. I realise these were strong characters and Crawl has a lot of variance so not everyone would get the same experience but it seemed to me these levels could definitely have been quite a bit more dangerous and still been fine.

It's worth noting they cleared these floors much quicker than the more enclosed corridor-based levels that generated on some alternate floors.

The players were using what terrain there was to their advantage, instead of defaulting to corridor tactics for every encounter. This seemed interesting to me.

I'll definitely carry on observing to get a better understanding of how these kind of changes affect different people's games, and I'm very interested in hearing feedback when people encounter the layouts (helps if you take a screenshot or give me a footv query so I can reference which layout it was and how it generated); but so far it seems like a number of issues might be getting ever so slightly overblown

Note: I have actually already been taking the comments here into account; the versions in trunk are tuned to tend more towards narrower corridors and more enclosed spaces than the originals.

[a9qd0wf]

zot:1-4 is simply the most tedious thing after roaming abyss for rune and Wnscumming