Radical Ogre Proposal


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 01:17

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Well, if the one thing dpeg as a dev is open to is increased racial HP, then let's work on that.

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 04:29

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

minmay wrote:Graying out challenge/bizarre species on the selection screen is a great idea. It's immediately obvious to new players what it means.

I've heard a lot of people say that when they were new, they thought grey items on the species/background selection screen were banned entirely.

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 04:32

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

MarvintheParanoidAndroid wrote:
minmay wrote:Graying out challenge/bizarre species on the selection screen is a great idea. It's immediately obvious to new players what it means.

I've heard a lot of people say that when they were new, they thought grey items on the species/background selection screen were banned entirely.

It would be a good idea to add a line that says "greyed out selections are considered expert mode" or something to that effect.

There's no indication on screen what it means for something to be greyed out.

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 04:35

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

brown or magenta or red unrecommended species/roles/combos out or something and save grey for banned combinations
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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 06:19

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

The more I think about it, the more I feel that acvar's opinion (about ogres not being the best candidate for a challenge race because they're too well-defined) is true.

Ah well, whatever.
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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 19:16

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I have NO problems with having challenge Races.
(My signature is proof of this, Losing is fun!)

However, It is a BIG mistake to have Ogres fill in that gap. (It is by far the worst design choice made by the devs for this game IMHO)
In the CrawlWiki guide to Ogre wanderers it states.
Run from kobolds until you reach lv2.

A lone Kobold should never be able to take down an Ogre.
I mean even in Crawl's arena this kind of thing doesn't happen.
(respawn ogre v kobold- Each ogre can take down an average of 5-10 kobolds before going down)


I think that if changes are made (and they should be)
Then a new Challenge race should be thought up that would be similar to the ogre how it is now.... ONLY HARDER!

So far all i've been getting from the opposing argument is a fear of change.
Thats not a good enough reason for me to be happy.
See when i think of Ogres I think of this.
Image

It seems like Ogres in DC:SS are more like this right now.
Image

Why not have the current ogre class renamed to Big Kobolds?
Thats an in game Mob that no one cares about. It would definatly shut me up, AND i would not demand a new Ogre Race to be inserted.

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Post Tuesday, 1st March 2011, 23:16

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Modifying racial hp seems to be something that everyone can agree on here. If its done right, it could probably go a long way towards addresing peoples grievances with ogres.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 00:51

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I would argue that Crawl ogres are more like this:

Image

I bet I'm not the only one with fond memories of this sort of ogre. It's perfect! You spend most of the early game getting your butt whupped repeatedly by small furry animals and midgets with sticks. Just like in the show!

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 06:59

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

minmay wrote:Another thing: Transmuter should be a recommended background for ogres. It's a lot easier than wizard, that's for sure.


What god goes good with this build? I've been playing a few Ogre Transmuters in 0.72 lately and using Kiku to some degree of success. I've had a hard time choosing between pain brand on my giant spiked club or the Necrominon to eventually take away the hunger clock with Lich form.

On topic I think a feasable way to buff Ogre's would be to buff their signature weapon; The giant spiked club. It is already pretty damn good, but perhaps a borderline broken weapon could counterbalance the inability to take a hit.

Another very minor improvement would be to make them 'Orcish'. The game calls them a relative to the Orc, and they sure as heck show up in the mines a lot already. Why not give them the bonus to whatever Orcish gear they can use, and allow them worship and be recruited by Beogh?

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 07:28

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

new okawaru seems pretty good for ogtm since it gives them an effective 5 extra UC skill (and some more but that's the highlight) on demand (nice with their mediocre apt), but really most builds (ogtm included, imo) don't even need a god.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 11:04

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

minmay wrote:- A not inconsiderable number of vocal people complain about ogres being weak.
- Almost nobody complains about mummies being weak.

Now, I find ogres in gameplay to be plenty enjoyable, and they don't need a change there. Same with mummies. However, mummies are immediately expected to be pretty weak: monster mummies are slow, weak, and only threatening because of their death curse (which obviously doesn't matter for player mummies). Added to this, in popular culture mummies are only one step above zombies. Ogres...well, as you can see, people have different expectations.


That's not all there is to it. As I said, Mummies have character - yes, they're weak, but if you succeed in making the most out of their unique advantage, you can have a hell of a game. By comparison, ogres' only real distinction is using large rocks - if you want to use GSC and the shield advantage, you're better off with the superior melee fighter troll. And large rock, while good, is still just a missile weapon - lots of races do missile weapons as good if not better, and still have less worries about brittleness.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 11:53

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

"mummies don't have to worry about hunger, but hunger is mostly irrelevant anyway, and especially so for far more proficient spellcasters"
"deep elves are good at casting but so are other races and they aren't near as fragile"
"demigods have good stats but other races are just fine and can also take gods"

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 14:10

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

MrMisterMonkey wrote:"mummies don't have to worry about hunger, but hunger is mostly irrelevant anyway, and especially so for far more proficient spellcasters"
"deep elves are good at casting but so are other races and they aren't near as fragile"
"demigods have good stats but other races are just fine and can also take gods"


Well, it seems that this was supposed to be a sarcastic post, but as far as I understand from discussions around here and the wiki, both demigods and mummies are slated for some buffs to address these very issues. As for deep elves, casting is a much broader field of expertise than 'large rocks and giant spiked clubs'. So all things considered, the quoted post is more of an argument for a radical ogre change than against.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 18:29

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

vintermann wrote: As I said, Mummies have character

^ Get that.

Challenging =/= Characterless

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 18:46

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

(ogres have character too. everyone has character except for maybe some of the middling strength races like minotaurs vs mountain dwarves. that or I don't know what you mean by character.)

(also the quotes weren't in support of any ogre proposal; they were simply to refute a silly point by applying a similar line of reasoning to other races)

(also this is stupid and I'll kindly shut up if you kindly shut up)
((and maybe even if you don't; who knows))
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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 19:06

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

MrMisterMonkey wrote:(ogres have character too. everyone has character except for maybe some of the middling strength races like minotaurs vs mountain dwarves. that or I don't know what you mean by character.)

(also the quotes weren't in support of any ogre proposal; they were simply to refute a silly point by applying a similar line of reasoning to other races)

(also this is stupid and I'll kindly shut up if you kindly shut up)
((and maybe even if you don't; who knows))

Being a challenge race doesn't mean they have character. "Challenging" isn't a character, because it's too general.

The fact that people remember Ogres only as a challenge race is enough proof that their character isn't strong enough.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 19:25

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

A level 5 OgFi with Fighting 2 has 48 HP. And they level very quickly. Sure, they're not sturdy, but they live up to the beefiness expectations.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 19:41

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I know ogres for more than that, but I simply haven't been emphasizing it here, as I don't find it a strong argument. Since you seem to need this, I'll say that, off the top of my head, I find them notable in character for being outstandingly squishy but beefy, the clubs&rocks aspect indeed contributes to character (even if nothing else), and their unique dabbling in magic.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 19:59

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

What's so fun with squishy and beefy? I don't think "squishy" is a "character" people usually expect from something they play as. I don't think it's such a cool thing to boast about how squishy your favorite race is. But to boast about how Mummies don't need to eat at all....

While Ogres may look cool with clubs and rocks, clubs and rocks aren't really the factors that draw people into playing them. Surely you don't play them because you want to bash things with GSC (unless you're a total newbie who thinks that Crawl's Ogres aren't squishy)? You want to play them to seek for challenges. Bashing things with GSC is hardly a memorable thing at all when you play Ogres with some dedication.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 20:12

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

As far as I see it, everything has been told.
To get a more detached point of view, I never play humans, ghouls, mummies. But I have never campaigned for removing or renaming any of these species. Ogres have a distinguished niche among species and that is what matters to us.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 20:36

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

dpeg wrote:A level 5 OgFi with Fighting 2 has 48 HP. And they level very quickly. Sure, they're not sturdy, but they live up to the beefiness expectations.


A HuFi at the same level has 40 and levels just as quickly, while a MD or HO Fi has 43. That's not a difference that would have anyone go "hey, those ogres sure are beefy like you would think".
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Post Wednesday, 2nd March 2011, 20:54

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

@dpeg:
The only really worthwhile thing about Crawl's Ogres is that they're challenging. What a broad "niche" it is.

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Post Thursday, 3rd March 2011, 18:53

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

my ogre wizards turn into ogre summoners
(ogre summoners are good (I'd recommend them) but it might be better to actually start as ogsu, depending on style)

the draw to ogbe, as I see it, is potential for giant spiked clubs of speed
(and having berserk to substitute for defenses before getting that and dragon armours and whatever else)

ogre transmuters are also great, yes, but perhaps not intuitive enough for recommendation
(yet trwz is recommended now; I'd recommend ogtm)

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Post Thursday, 3rd March 2011, 18:58

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

pratamawirya wrote:
evktalo wrote:Going against expectations (esp. new players') is a very good point.

It is... as long as the player finds it to be cool and fun. :)

Trying a race which is normally big, bad, and mean but finding it to be rather crappy instead... now that's not really cool. :)


I meant to say it was a good point to bring it up, not that going against expectations was a good thing in itself, in this case or in general.

--Eino
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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 01:57

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

omndra wrote:I have NO problems with having challenge Races.
(My signature is proof of this, Losing is fun!)

However, It is a BIG mistake to have Ogres fill in that gap. (It is by far the worst design choice made by the devs for this game IMHO)
In the CrawlWiki guide to Ogre wanderers it states.
Run from kobolds until you reach lv2.

A lone Kobold should never be able to take down an Ogre.
I mean even in Crawl's arena this kind of thing doesn't happen.
(respawn ogre v kobold- Each ogre can take down an average of 5-10 kobolds before going down)


I think that if changes are made (and they should be)
Then a new Challenge race should be thought up that would be similar to the ogre how it is now.... ONLY HARDER!

So far all i've been getting from the opposing argument is a fear of change.
Thats not a good enough reason for me to be happy.
See when i think of Ogres I think of this.
Image

It seems like Ogres in DC:SS are more like this right now.
Image

Why not have the current ogre class renamed to Big Kobolds?
Thats an in game Mob that no one cares about. It would definatly shut me up, AND i would not demand a new Ogre Race to be inserted.


Heh, did you know that its actually possible to use the doll editor in tiles to make your Ogre look exactly like Shrek? :D

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 4th March 2011, 12:32

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

If they're Shrek, shouldn't they at least get the racial skill Summon Donkey? It would help with those pesky kobolds...

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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 05:59

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Ogres have an awesome niche not shown by other roles. Get one to xl20 and you'll see what that is: it comes from extremely unbalanced magical aptitudes which while being a lot more challenging than humans is great fun in its own regard.

Ogres are fine as they are. Go to crawl and there are two things you need to know: Ogres are hard, and mummies are hard.

I agree with the proposal that difficulty should be on represented somehow on the race selection screen.

Spriggan, Deep Dwarf, Centaur, Troll -- very easy
Merfolk, High Elf, Human, Demonspawn -- easy
...
...
Ogre, Mummy -- very hard

this would be a great way to say yes, your ogre has hp, but it's not very good at holding attacks.

Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.
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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 10:25

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.


What makes you think that?

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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 10:35

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Curio wrote:
casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.


What makes you think that?

Well, they do have the 2nd highest HP of the game.
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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 11:10

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Some suggestions, riffing off seth's comment.

At present the species/background selection screen allows you to pick a "viable" species/background. I think that this is meant to choose among the species not grayed out by the selected background, or vice versa. This is misleading for species when no background is selected. This feature could be disabled when for species when no background is yet selected, and vice versa. Or, it could be replaced with "Pick a strong species" (strong probably isn't the right word), which could exclude ogres, humans, mummies, vampires or whatever races are more challenging.

Give ogres +2 or +3 to throwing. Right now they have +1. I think they'd still be a nice challenge.

Change ogre's description....
from: "Large and strong, they're mostly seen as brutes. Ogres are very comfortable with the basics of magic, however."
to: "Large, strong and deadly with hurled boulders, but surprisingly frail. Though unintelligent brutes, Ogres nonetheless can successfully dabble in any school of magic."

Hints mode to steers new players toward the easier characters. I'd suggest that the first time a player start DC, it loads hints mode. And add the following text to hints mode: "Below are just three of many possible species-background combinations that you can play. To see all possible combinations, press SPACE". This would appear only the first time DC is selected.
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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 12:47

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

galehar wrote:
Curio wrote:
casmith789 wrote:Ogres get a lot of hp but low defences. If you think about this, you should expect it.


What makes you think that?

Well, they do have the 2nd highest HP of the game.


True. But they have only 30 hp more than mundane humans. So, statement that humans "get a lot of hp too" becomes also true.

Eh...I promised to myself, that I stop rambling about ogres and just put the cross over this specie. So I'll just shut tp :?
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 05:31

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

smock wrote:Change ogre's description....
from: "Large and strong, they're mostly seen as brutes. Ogres are very comfortable with the basics of magic, however."
to: "Large, strong and deadly with hurled boulders, but surprisingly frail. Though unintelligent brutes, Ogres nonetheless can successfully dabble in any school of magic."

That could work. :)
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 07:33

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I want to know why we can't just rename Ogres to Hobgoblins and then make a new and improved race for Ogres.

Is it because some of the older guys here who have been playing this game sense v0.3 and think that Crawls Ogres are special?
Because they are not.

P.S. I also REALLY like the Treat the Ogres as an Orc subrace idea.
I wanna play as Ogre Jesus because Orc Jesus just got old.
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 09:00

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Ogres are not frail, they have a lot of HP. But they are awful at EV and bad at armours and shields. That's what make them fragile. Also, thematically I think they are fine. Ogres are known to be big brutes, not great heroes who go on quests.
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 10:48

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Personally, I think this discussion is finished. Some people are not happy with ogres as they are. Okay. Ignoring all the comments about "Ogre Runts" and "Hobgoblins" (come on folks, you can do better), what remains is that ogres are somewhat weaker than your powerhouse species. Okay! I've player and divine warnings about removing all challenge species, too. Cannot please them all, and I think that a number of players and all developers who commented on the issue agree that Ogres have a niche.
They will benefit a lot from making Fighting give species-dependent HP, and we can talk about aptitudes. (By the way, there was some idea about changing recommended combos -- can you wikify that or come to crawl-dev?)
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 16:48

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

dpeg wrote:Personally, I think this discussion is finished. Some people are not happy with ogres as they are. Okay. Ignoring all the comments about "Ogre Runts" and "Hobgoblins" (come on folks, you can do better), what remains is that ogres are somewhat weaker than your powerhouse species. Okay! I've player and divine warnings about removing all challenge species, too. Cannot please them all, and I think that a number of players and all developers who commented on the issue agree that Ogres have a niche.
They will benefit a lot from making Fighting give species-dependent HP, and we can talk about aptitudes. (By the way, there was some idea about changing recommended combos -- can you wikify that or come to crawl-dev?)


Why should you Ignore the comments about just changing the name?
And if you don't like changing the name to Hobgoblin then how about changing it to something like "Fat Hobo"

(I mean Ogres are so bad already that they are pretty much already a Joke Race, they just need a stupid name.)
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 18:42

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

That's enough. Locked.
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