Nightstalker

[sanka]

Some players seems to think that nighstalker can be annoying on a demonspawn, some even quit when they get it. I think it's a very strong mutation, just it's can be annoying. I think this is unique amongst the DS mutations - demonic guardian with Oka comes close, but I think that one can be fixed with simply not count the guardians death with Oka or whatever - and you can just not worship Oka with a demonspawn.

On the other hand, I really like it, and sometimes I have killed a lot of DS chars just to try it out with some builds.

Do you think it would be a good idea to remove nightstalker from the random mutation list and give it to a new race? I think Nighstalker would work better on a race than as a random mutation. Since it's strong it would be possible to balance it somewhat, and since it can be annoying players who do not like it won't get it randomly ruining their day.

[Wahaha]

I don't understand how it can be annoying. Smaller LOS is annoying? In what way? I honestly cannot imagine any way of finding this mutation annoying. I think most people who don't like it don't understand the importance of LOS and don't understand just how good this mutation is. Many inexperienced people just think it's useless really, and ctrl+q because they got a "useless" mutation.

I think it's a great Ds mutation flavor-wise. But it could be a significant aspect in making a new race unique and interesting too. I don't have any preference.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I find reduced LOS good on some characters but decidedly bad on others. Yes, I know less enemies can affect you if there's less LOS. But here's the thing, sooner or later you're gonna wander into LOS of a monster, even with vision down to 3. When that happens, my glassier glass-cannons with powerful ranged conjurations? They much prefer having the range to hurt them from and to easily escape. I'd much rather *not* avoid 3 orbs of fire, than find one of them three squares away from me.

For primarily melee characters or people trying stealth/stab builds? Totally different story.

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

Smaller LOS is annoying? In what way?

Characters that kill things at range want as much range as possible between themselves and their targets.

[Wahaha]

When that happens, my glassier glass-cannons with powerful ranged conjurations?

I don't find that characters using powerful ranged conjurations are much more "squishy" than other characters, unless you intentionally choose to not get any defenses for some reason. There's nothing preventing them from wearing decent armor and having good EV and training fighting, just like any other character. Nightstalker doesn't make it harder to escape things either. It makes it much easier in fact. If you find an orb of fire 3 squares from you, or rather 5 because 5 is nightstalker los I think, I recommend doing the same thing as you would do if it were 8 away.

Smaller LOS is annoying? In what way?

Characters that kill things at range want as much range as possible between themselves and their targets.

Well I guess it can be annoying to have less range for people who want to fight things at range. I thought people found it annoying for some kind of more general reason.

That said, I would gladly take nightstalker on any character. Yes that includes characters that use storm spells or bows or whatever.

[crate]

Mainly I don't like nightstalker because it makes exploring take longer. It's definitely very rare that it's bad but I would also never want to have it.

[Abominae]

Nightstalker is really good. I would hate to see it removed, being able to both engage and disengage an enemy three turns sooner is very powerful.
Then again, I also actually like Monstrous Ds, so what do I know?

[sanka]

I think I did not express myself clearly. I think that Nightstalker is a great mutation, just it's not the best *random* mutation on a DS. Partially because some find it unfun (so it can spoil their DS), and partially because some found it so fun that they can start a lot of DS just to try it. I am not aware of any other DS mutations with these properties.

[dpeg]

The idea of Demonspawn is that you adapt to what you get. All mutations are positive if adapted to. Now I know that many Crawlers have a concept of the character in mind (I do too), including Demonspawns. In this sense, Nightstalker is a good DS mutation, design-wise. On the other hand, players quitting when getting it is horrible (same for monstrous).

I see three potential reactions:

• Do nothing. In other words, we assume players strive to win every character they start. Adapting to Nightstalker when it comes up (e.g. by incorporating stabby-ness on what was planned to be a ranged damage character) is part of the game.
• Make Nightstalker switchable: "You slip in [out of] the shadows." This has advantages and drawbacks of its own, which I won't discuss here.
• Remove Nightstalker. For me, this is the worst option but I am certainly interested in the opinions of others.

On the first one (do nothing): This is a problem that also comes up elsewhere (there was a lengthy discussion about this in the Brogue forum recently). Basically, it is: Who to design the game for? As a designer, you'd like to assume that players give their fullest in every single game. As a player, you know that that's just not the case, barring special people or special circumstances (like tournaments or streaks). So when a player tells you that she rage-quits over something (wrong DS mutation, desired altar not found until and in the temple, etc.), it is not clear at all how to react. My first instinct would always be to not give in to player complaints.

It occurs to me that another option for Nightstalker might be to make it up-front (but that's a partial help, as it lets player quit earlier).

[adozu]

make it a special case where if your stabbing is less than 2 (or another arbitrary value) when you would get nightstalker the game rolls to give you a different mutation? that could be a possible solution i think.

[dpeg]

Skills influencing mutations was the case for old DS, and it wasn't good.

[Jeremiah]

What if getting the Nightstalker mutation either gave a better aptitude for stabbing, or a passive bonus to stabbing depending on Nightstalker level? Maybe one of the reasons players don't like having to adapt to that playstyle is that Ds have a pretty low stabbing aptitude, especially compared to the species that you would normally choose to play as a stabber like Ko or Sp.

[adozu]

and stabbing playstyle doesn't take advantage of the bonus to demonic weapons either.

[njvack]

The only way I can see NS being bad is if you've made a huge skill investment in a character build that Nightstalker is problematic for. If it manifests early, you have plenty plenty plenty of time to adjust your character so they work together.

crate's comment about exploration is a valid one, too, though perhaps harder to fix.

[Lasty]

I'm not sure where these complaints are coming from. NS is only arguably bad for a small handful of conjurations (Shock, lightning bolt, magic dart, and Veh-boosted Storm spells, other bolt spells used against single targets), ranged combat, and maybe summoners. For all other conjurations, melee combat, stealth, stabbing, and everything else, it's a positive in every circumstance: Monsters have a harder time spotting you, you get in range to fight while giving monsters less time to use ranged powers, monsters lose track of you faster, and fewer monsters can be in sight at a time.

Even for the few playstyles where NS is arguably bad, its benefits probably make up for the drawbacks in the majority of cases.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I know that it's not the main topic, but based on comments here (mainly from Lasty, Abominae, and Wahaha) I'm starting to think that maybe I *don't* get Nightstalker at all.


To give a concrete example. Say I'm playing my "usual" conjurator build - a Deep Elf of average speed with some powerful long-range spells (including poison arrow) which are capable of reaching far into my LOS.

Case 1a (full LOS): I autotravel and find myself onscreen with an executioner.
+ I am still as close to the stairs as I could possibly hope to be and as far from him.
+ If I'm gonna run, I benefit from being able to use blink scrolls to get the full distance away.
+ I can utilize the *full* range of my long-range conjurations, including with veh+1, magic dart, lightning bolt, poison arrow, firestorm (ie: available at every level); and in this manner get at least one extra shot in before he reaches me.
+ If I activate a teleport scroll, I'll have enough turns that he won't be able to reach me.
- If I choose to run into the 'known' area, I'm more likely to accidentally run into new enemies.
+ If I'm running into the unknown area, I'm vastly more likely to find an up/down staircase, emergency hatch, teleport trap, or *something* of use.

Case 1b (restriced LOS): I autotravel and find myeslf with an executioner on screen.
- Further from the stairs by LOS-tiles.
- Can't cBlink as far.
- Lessened advantage of range.
- Shorter time till attacked.
+ Less likely to encounter new enemies in the first place . . . BUT:
- if you're trying to clear floors for EXP, this is a BAD thing.
- if you *do* run into a new enemy while running he's going to be at spitting-distance instead of full range, vastly reducing your time to react/ change direction.
- Levels take more to explore.


While it's true that you can't be attacked by enemies that can't see you, I've definitely also noticed that the enemies who are generally most dangerous to my casters are those that I can't outrun. Well if I can't outrun them at long range, it's gonna be that much more lethal trying to outrun them at short range.

This is not to say that nightstalker mutation isn't a perfect fit for high-stealth characters interested in stabbing; after all *they* actually have a shot at shaking off pursuit of monsters who fall out of LOS. They benefit from dealing a devastating close-range melee attack and so getting the distance closed quickly. They aren't using super-loud spells as a matter of routine like a well built conjurer. And getting saddled with a mutation you don't like is part of the territory of playing Xom/Demonspawn/Jiyva/ anything-that-lets-the-RNG-control-that-aspect-of-your-game.

But people are making it sound like reduced LOS is a strictly good thing, for any character in the overwhelming majority of situations and frankly I just don't see it.

-AHMAD

[Tiber]

I'm not sure where these complaints are coming from. NS is only arguably bad for a small handful of conjurations (Shock, lightning bolt, magic dart, and Veh-boosted Storm spells, other bolt spells used against single targets), ranged combat, and maybe summoners. For all other conjurations, melee combat, stealth, stabbing, and everything else, it's a positive in every circumstance: Monsters have a harder time spotting you, you get in range to fight while giving monsters less time to use ranged powers, monsters lose track of you faster, and fewer monsters can be in sight at a time.

Even for the few playstyles where NS is arguably bad, its benefits probably make up for the drawbacks in the majority of cases.

You're forgetting any smite targeted spell, any spell that affects the entire screen, wands, and many more. Honestly, Nightstalker hinders just about all forms of ranged combat except Earth Magic (and even then it hurts LRD). Between that and the exploration issue, I usually quit when I get it. Why? Because it doesn't matter if it helps me or not; I play the game to have fun, and I personally find that it just makes the game more tedious.

[crate]

The idea of Demonspawn is that you adapt to what you get. All mutations are positive if adapted to. Now I know that many Crawlers have a concept of the character in mind (I do too), including Demonspawns. In this sense, Nightstalker is a good DS mutation, design-wise. On the other hand, players quitting when getting it is horrible (same for monstrous).

I see three potential reactions:

• Do nothing. In other words, we assume players strive to win every character they start. Adapting to Nightstalker when it comes up (e.g. by incorporating stabby-ness on what was planned to be a ranged damage character) is part of the game.
• Make Nightstalker switchable: "You slip in [out of] the shadows." This has advantages and drawbacks of its own, which I won't discuss here.
• Remove Nightstalker. For me, this is the worst option but I am certainly interested in the opinions of others.

On the first one (do nothing): This is a problem that also comes up elsewhere (there was a lengthy discussion about this in the Brogue forum recently). Basically, it is: Who to design the game for? As a designer, you'd like to assume that players give their fullest in every single game. As a player, you know that that's just not the case, barring special people or special circumstances (like tournaments or streaks). So when a player tells you that she rage-quits over something (wrong DS mutation, desired altar not found until and in the temple, etc.), it is not clear at all how to react. My first instinct would always be to not give in to player complaints.

It occurs to me that another option for Nightstalker might be to make it up-front (but that's a partial help, as it lets player quit earlier).

My main problem with nightstalker is it is very gamechanging in a way that no other ds mutation is. It's basically changing your ds into an entirely different race (and one that I happen to strongly dislike). There is no other mutation that is anywhere close to this.

If there was a ds mutation that turned you into a permanent lich, that would be also really awful and would make me quit in exactly the same way that nightstalker does. I don't like mutations that change my race.

[dpeg]

crate: I know you don't mean it like that, but I have a fundamental problem with the reasoning in this thread: "We don't like Nightstalker, to the extent that we quit when it comes up. Change it!" Seeing players not having fun is horrible, but there's always something that will make some players quit. In a sense, I feel pressured into taking action, although I am not convinced about the issue. After all, quitting after getting a DS mutuation never occurred to me. I guess that in this case the only solution is to ask oneself (i.e. the devteam) if the feature under question is fun or not. I know for myself, and I'll ask on ##crawl-dev.

[Lasty]

(paraphrase) Executioner on screen.

If you do decide to teleport away, you should be able to with or without Nightstalker, as long as you walk away from the Executioner after reading. Granted, you have slightly less time than you would otherwise, but it should be plenty in most cases. After the teleport resolves, you're less likely to have new monsters in LOS, and less likely to be noticed by monsters near LOS.

In terms of walking away, unless you were already right by the stairs, you weren't going to successfully escape from the Executioner that way anyway.

If you're going to duke it out w/ spells, you have slightly fewer turns to throw stuff at it before it closes to melee range (1 fewer, given Executioner speed, IIRC), and that's not nothing, but it only applies if a) it notices you immediately and b) you're using one of the conjurations which actually hits full LOS.

Having Nightstalker means that Earth conjurations and Vehumet-unsupported conjurations are probably already in range if you can see a target, and so you're not losing anything against the Executioner in that example. It also means that there's a better chance that the monster hasn't noticed you when it enters LOS, meaning you're more likely to be able to just take a step away and not have to fight it at all.

(paraphrase) But it's fine for stabbers.

Aside from the stealth bonus and the decreased number of turns in which to get noticed, stabbers aren't in better shape than conjurors. Hexes have full LOS range, meaning that if the Executioner has noticed you, you do have fewer turns to confuse it or escape, and stabbers are about equally likely to have escape options as conjurors are.. That said, I think the benefits outweigh that issue, as they do for most conjurors.

(paraphrase) You forgot a bunch of full-LOS ranged effects.

You're right, I did. There are still a large number of spells that either don't hit full LOS or hit full LOS only with Vehumet boosts, and those spells effectively get a boost from Nightstalker aside from the standard not-being-noticed-so-much boost.

[galehar]

Say I'm playing my "usual" conjurator build - a Deep Elf

Good for you, this build is quite unlikely to get Nighstalker.

Anyway, maybe Lastly is exaggerating a bit, but you are too, and this isn't bringing the discussion anywhere. Of course NS is bad if you rely exclusively on ranged attacks with full LOS range. Especially against a fast melee enemy. It's obvious.
The point is that NS is very good for some builds and very bad for others. Which in my book, makes it a very good DS mutation. If you're unwilling to adapt, I don't even know why you're playing a DS to begin with.
Regarding exploration, yes it's tedious, this is why there's autoexplore! NS makes it a bit slower to explore a level. You can reduce explore_delay to compensate (or set it to -1).

[Mankeli]

A race that, at least to a certain extent, is supposed to be about randomness and adaptation actually has a mutation that forces to adapt and has an actual effect. How is this bad?

Firstly, I think nightstalker is much nicer than the "interesting choices" that PC draconians face (oh no, my char is a white draco even though I've started as an FE, this will maybe have some noticeable difference).

Secondly, reducing LOS is not overused by any means IMO. I can only think of the lantern and darkness spell (of course you can block LOS with fog, steam breathe and the like too).

Thirdly, eventhough autoexplore takes a little bit more effort it is not too big of a deal for me and galehar already gave some tips for that too.

Fourthly, unlike monstrous, nightstalker is probably actually desirable for the majority, or at least great share, of chars powerwise.

[dpeg]

Unrelated quick comment: as Darshan once pointed out, white colour on a DrFE is actually great, because you can use a ring of fire without exposing yourself elementally!

Apart from this, I agree that DS is better at the adaption game than current Dr.

[Bim]

After this topic came up I've been playing a lot of DS. I've just managed to get a DSWa with NS2 going quite well (I was going for a medium armour build with demonic polearms and moderate utility spell casting). I've found NS a bit of an annoyance, but mostly not actually dangerous so far - Mainly, it just means you need to be a bit more careful (especially with retreating), luckily though I've got plenty of escape options as a warper, if I didn't it might be a bit more annoying.

However, my main problem with it is that it's the only demonspawn mutation with an actual downside for some chars. Admittedly, some of the monstrous mutations (and if you roll a monstrous DS) are annoying in some circumstances, but you're assured to get at least one bodyslot change so that's a sort of given going into a DS, and you can normally tell quickly if you're going to be monstrous or not. The problem with Nightstalker is that it can come late on, and then you're stuck with it after you've already spent (possibly significant) xp on one play style which utilizes full LOS often.

[prozacelf]

I don't use DS very often, but I've had a couple of occasions when I got Nightstalker on a DsFE or DsCj and even then, I did not find that it forced me into something I just really hated to have to do. As far as I'm concerned, stealth and stabbing can be effective on just about any build that isn't totally melee focused. Full disclosure--I prefer Enchanters and Assassins.

[mikee]

I once brought up the issue of nightstalker being unfun for me with the developer who coded it. He said something like, "Well, you need to adapt!" and shrugged it off. I think he either didn't understand my complaint or did but didn't understand why it was important. The complaint is not about the ability to build a character or to win with the nightstalker mutation. I have never lost a ds with nightstalker (it is very strong!), but I have also never fully enjoyed playing one. This is because there is adapting and there is adapting. I am very used to a LOS with a radius of 8 tiles; it's a good size and I am comfortable with how to do pretty much everything within it. But with nightstalker, for me - it's like a strong mutation that has the side effect of turning the screen permanently purple. Why would I enjoy that?

[Wahaha]

I'll attempt to explain for some people in this thread that nightstalker isn't bad for characters with ranged attacks.

Alright so you can't use the full range of your attacks. Enemies appear 3 tiles closer to you.

1. With full LOS enemies still very often appear "3 tiles closer to you" because corners and doors exist.
2. Your attacks don't do less damage at lower range or something.
3. Enemies might get into melee range more often if 5 tiles (5 spells (that's a lot)) isn't enough to kill them.
4. If you have trouble with enemies being next to you a tiny little bit more often, well I don't know what to say. Again, corners are pretty common in this game so you'd be having problems even without nightstalker.
5. No, nightstalker is not a disadvantage for screen-wide spells. Fighting less things at once is a good thing.
6. If you see a strong enemy and want to escape and your escape plan would work from 8 tiles away but not 5, there's something very wrong with your escape plan.

7. You get the advantages of nightstalker that were already mentioned in this thread. These advantages are really good, for all types of characters.

8. Legitimate complaint: Can't blink as far.


On-topic question: would people who dislike the nightstalker mutation like or dislike a race with nightstalker?

[crate]

Race with nightstalker is fine. You choose the race knowing you will get nightstalker, and if you don't want it you just don't choose that race.

[Baldu]

I'm wondering if this could be turned into an ability that takes say 5 turns to turn on or turn off. That would turn it into a purely positive thing and might be so strong as to make people restart their demonspawns until they got it though.

[starless]

Well, that is the gamble with mutations. I am surprised that people complain about the random mutations they get, provided that they purposely picked a Demonspawn.

Simply go with another race if you don't want to take chances. I personally love Nightstalker, it is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

[crate]

I am surprised that people complain about the random mutations they get, provided that they purposely picked a Demonspawn.

There is no other mutation that demonspawn get that changes the game anywhere near as much as nightstalker does. In fact every other demonspawn mutation still has you feeling like you're pretty much playing the same race. Playing a nightstalker demonspawn feels like a different race entirely.

[prozacelf]

crate wrote:

There is no other mutation that demonspawn get that changes the game anywhere near as much as nightstalker does. In fact every other demonspawn mutation still has you feeling like you're pretty much playing the same race. Playing a nightstalker demonspawn feels like a different race entirely.

While it's been brought up before, this is probably one of the most straightforward arguments against nightstalker. Not that it's bad, as such, but that it does require you to play in a specific way--and differently from the other mutations. Powered by Pain is the only other demonspawn mutation I can think of that is even close in terms of changing the feel of the race, and even it can be handy for most builds. So I can understand the complaint. I still happen to like nightstalker, and would not like to see it removed entirely, but I can see why it is unpopular among a subset of players.

Just to blow some smoke out of my ass, it might be interesting to make a shadow race that had nightstalker as a starting mutation, but I suspect that it would have too much overlap with vampire and spriggan in terms of aptitudes and such to make much sense to actually include.

[starless]

I don't necessarily agree that it feels like a different race.
Most of DS's abilities are unavailable to other races, including Nightstalker, so I don't see how this is a bad thing. It is in fact quite desirable for a melee or a stealthy character.

[galehar]

crate wrote:

There is no other mutation that demonspawn get that changes the game anywhere near as much as nightstalker does. In fact every other demonspawn mutation still has you feeling like you're pretty much playing the same race. Playing a nightstalker demonspawn feels like a different race entirely.

While it's been brought up before, this is probably one of the most straightforward arguments against nightstalker.

Or not. From a design point of view, this can be seen as an argument in favour of NS. The point of demonspawn mutations is to change the gameplay so it succeeds. It's also fine that the gameplay impact is not the same for all mutations. It's fine that one of them as a stronger impact than any other. Is it too much? Is there a limit to how much the game can be changed by a DS mutation? It's debatable, so to each his own opinion.

Now, I'm hearing various complaints about how it's annoying or how it's inappropriate as a DS mutation, any idea how to improve it? Removal isn't considered for now. Moving it to another race? Maybe, but which one (I'm skeptical)? Making it toggleable doesn't sound great to me. Anything else?

[crate]

From a design point of view, this can be seen as an argument in favour of NS.

The biggest problem I have with this is that it's the only mutation like this. If demonspawn had more mutations that radically changed the way you play perhaps I would find nightstalker more acceptable (even if only because it's not such an outlier). But right now the only thing that comes close is being monstrous. All the other mutations just make your character better in some way, and you can completely ignore them and feel like you're pretty much playing a human.

So personally I think that if the devteam wants this to actually be a design goal then demonspawn mutations should be overhauled to actually make it clear you're not a human with some bonuses.

[sanka]

Crate expressed my feelings much better than me.

I agree that either nightstalker could work on a separate new race and removed from DS, or other DS mutations should be heavily overhauled to have much stronger effets on gameplay. I would not like to see Nightstalker removed from the game.

[dpeg]

Seconding all what galehar said.

One potential "fix" would be to make the other DS mutations more substantial, too. (I am serious on this one.)

Regarding Nightstalker itself: perhaps you should be able to explore dungeon features as in full LOS (or at least more than what Nightstalker gives you), but you only see monsters (and they see you) within Nightstalker radius? I have to admit that I don't fully understand the annoyance complaint (I like having Nightstalker, and I never felt annoyed), but perhaps this addresses some of the problems?

[Psieye]

So personally I think that if the devteam wants this to actually be a design goal then demonspawn mutations should be overhauled to actually make it clear you're not a human with some bonuses.

This is it I think. Most other demonspawn mutation packs are just a list of perks that don't bring much to the adaptation game compared to Nightstalker. The other facets just make you think "oh this is nice, but I'm still going to do pretty much what I planned on doing before with minimal adjustments". Frankly, I get more 'can you adapt to this?' decision pressure from the loot I find off the floor or from worshipping Sif/Kiku/newVeh than some of the Ds facets. Nightstalker is getting a lot of comment because it's the only facet that's successfully meeting the design goal.

I'll spin this off into another thread.

[prozacelf]

I think I'm looking at Ds mutations from the opposite side of crate really.....and maybe it's because I'm a relative noob. I don't *like* getting monstrous Ds mutations, but I deal with it. I happen to like nightstalker so I work with it well. I don't see the problem, but if someone wants to separate nightstalker from the other mutations I wouldn't argue.

EDIT: More importantly: I DON'T see the problem--I don't feel like I got screwed if I don't get NS, but I like it when I do. And I think being someone who isn't an expert at the game actually gives some weight to my opinion in this case. Ds is fun BECAUSE of the randomness.....

[Jeremiah]

If you did decide to move Nightstalker to another race, what about halflings? I know it doesn't fit with their current flavour very well, but that could be changed (and if necessary change the name as well.)

People often complain that Ha are insufficiently distinguished from Ko, and this would be one way to make them more distinct. It wouldn't work so well with the high Slings aptitude as it would reduce the effective range, but maybe the aptitudes could be juggled as well (better stabbing, worse ranged weapons.)

Another alternative would be Ghouls, but IMO they already have enough to make them unique.

[Styro]

Here some possible options:

1. Make the LOS effect of NS one-way so that it only affects enemies. Probably way too overpowered.
2. Put the NS effect into a cloak instead of having it as a DS mutation. Perhaps replace cloak of darkness. This leaves the effect still in the game, but makes it optional.
3. Make the effect toggle-able like Tengu's flight (suggested by Baldu). Personally I like this solution the best. If NS is so powerful you could give it an added food cost while it is on like regeneration.
4. Do not change exploration LOS, but only monster visibility LOS (suggested by dpeg). This way it does not affect things like Abyss exploration or finding timed portals. It also reduces the claustrophobia effect.

I really like the idea of NS because it is so novel and because I like playing stabbers. I don't tend to play DS much, though because I do not like having to make large adjustments to my game plan. If I were in control I would probably allow the player to choose the DS mutations he wants at the beginning of the game, perhaps with a point buy system or something.

[njvack]

2. Put the NS effect into a cloak instead of having it as a DS mutation. Perhaps replace cloak of darkness. This leaves the effect still in the game, but makes it optional.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=robe+of+night

[Bim]

I quite like the idea of Demonspawn mutations being more varied, but the annoyance is that they can come quite a long way down the line. I think if they were too game changing (more so than NS) then you would either force people to choose Ash or become a bit of a challenge class . I'd rather DS stay as 'moderately bad attributes but nice mutations, with the chance to become monstrous' and put NS on another class which needs variation. I would second Halflings, but I feel they may need to be changed in other ways (possibly completely gotten rid of and replaced my a more interesting class). It would be nicely thematic for ghouls, but as has been said, it might make them a bit overpowered.

[Bomanz]

My favorite solutions are:

1. Let the player know early on that he will be getting nightstalker mutation, like monsterous.

2. Make it toggleable. I think this is more an annoyance issue than a balance one?

Somewhat related are the antannae mutation and the demonic guardian mutation. If you worship Ashenzari antaennae means a wasted mutation slot, or conversely somewhat wasted god power. And worshipping okawaru as a DS is a crapshoot because demonic guardian can get you killed by wrath.

[jejorda2]

And worshipping okawaru as a DS is a crapshoot because demonic guardian can get you killed by wrath.

From the change log:

b325f11 | Raphael Langella | 2013-03-26 21:52:53 +0100

Don't spawn demonic guardians when worshipping Oka.
There should probably be a message about that but I'm not sure when and how
to flavour it. Probably not each time the mutation is suppressed as it would
be uselessly spammy. So when gaining the mutation or starting to worhsip Oka
whichever comes last.
The message should convey that the mutation is only suppressed and that it
would work again if the player leaves Oka.

[nicolae]

Is there a message for that yet? How does "You sense Okawaru telling your demonic guardians that a warrior such as yourself needs no assistance." sound?

[Bim]

Is there a message for that yet? How does "You sense Okawaru telling your demonic guardians that a warrior such as yourself needs no assistance." sound?

hahaha that's great! I love it!!

As far as antennas/suppressing DG for Oku, I think it's fine to be for them to be just suppressed, as they'd become useful again if you change gods, and in fact getting DG 3 would probably be good for changing from Oku late game!

[Bloax]

While I haven't played this game in ages, I don't like how "adaptation" is thrown around like you can just adapt your character to the newly restricted LOS in a couple of floors.

Building up a character that's going to win is something that takes quite a big chunk of the game, unless one applies some trickery into the mix.
Suddenly getting your cards scrambled because now your DsFE you rushed to make proficient at firestorming suddenly can't do it as much without toasting itself isn't something that takes a couple of floors to adapt to.

Because you rushed for firestorm without that much investment in backup (because hey, if one firestorm doesn't work, another will!) and now one of your tires burst all of a sudden. And now you gotta invest in backup.
And while of course that's not impossible, it would still be annoying to all of a sudden hit a roadblock that says "NO YOU MUST PLAY THE GAME SO AND SO".
Adaptation in a situation like that wouldn't just mean playing differently (less LOS to 'storm the buggas to death in), but also considerable investment in other skills for enemies that are resistant to fire. (Less LOS = less time to wear them out.)

And while I'm not proving anything you aren't saying (I'm actually agreeing in that it certainly doesn't wreck the game), I don't like the "adaptation" flinging. Because character buildup is a very long part of the game.
Changing this buildup somewhere towards the end of it is no easy task (that can probably make people quit), and again - with the other Demonspawn mutations being various buffs, this one mutation stands out like a very sore thumb.

One thing that could be done is more pronounced mutation effects, which would be nice if you ask me - but another would be either making Nightstalker a mutation that appears early, so that you're guaranteed time to adapt.

[Kate]

I'm not sure what this example of a non-existent situation is meant to demonstrate. What kind of characters are these that "rush Firestorm" and somehow don't notice their first level in Nightstalker and then are somehow shocked when they get three levels of it later (and also how does this actually make Firestorm bad even if you suddenly get max Nightstalker without noticing)?