[Proposal] Some DS mutations irrelevant in end game

[LordLovebone]

I have been playing heavily for a few weeks, got a 15 rune 27 zig win and have been only playing as a Demonspawn.

I have noticed though that some of the DS mutations become irrelevant during the end game portions mainly because of demons. I am going to list some that I feel are an issue and make some suggestions -- I would love to have some feedback whether it is for or against.

Powered By Death -
Issue: End game corpses become very rare. You'll only see use of this ability in the odd Holy Pan, a zig or from the rare corpse in hell.
Suggestion: For creatures that NEVER leave a corpse, have it trigger an X% chance to reap their essence/power which gives the same effect+duration as a single corpse. Even a demon has a type of life force/essence that could be fed upon. Undead need not apply.

Blood Fire - (Mutation that causes spilled blood to light on fire)
Issue: This ability is very useful but it also suffers in the end game since many creatures don't spill blood. Your character spills blood but not very frequently, when it happens it usually just lands on the square you're standing on.
Suggestion: Not really sure what to suggest for this, giving demons a slightly lower chance than normal to spill blood would even this ability out.

Will appreciate any feed back. Perhaps these changes shouldn't be made but I think that demons become such an integral part of the end game that some of our mutations should get a slight chance to be of use.

[nicolae]

I think the response is probably going to be along the lines of "it's okay if some mutations aren't useful in some parts of the game". Some new sort of demon-related mutation might be interesting but I don't think it's necessary to change existing ones to be more demon-oriented.

[LordLovebone]

Aye, I agree to an extent.

I just thought that since pretty much all the other muts and other racial specials are relevant end game that this may have been an oversight on three of the most unique tier 2 abilties (Miasma (to a lesser extent), PbD, Blood fire) having very little use in the end game which is longer than the 3 runer game.

I am fine on either way this goes, just figured I would see the thoughts of the community after noticing this.

[crate]

I'm not sure I'd say that "end game which is longer than the 3 runer game" is true:

  Code:

<Sequell> 92 games for crate (won urune=3): avg(dur)=6:36:18; avg(turn)=93839.17
<Sequell> 16 games for crate (won urune>=13): avg(dur)=10:03:52; avg(turn)=126444.31

<Sequell> 5027 games for * (won urune=3): avg(dur)=10:17:17; avg(turn)=105433.29
<Sequell> 2530 games for * (won urune>=13): avg(dur)=20:18:01; avg(turn)=222819.76

Also you can argue the opposite thing about at least the rN/rtorm mut ... if you were doing a 3 rune game it was basically the same as not having a mutation.

[Lafaros]

As an avid player of demonspawn myself, I'm not really sure this is a problem. The demonspawn mutations you listed may not be relevant for a 15-rune game, but they're fantastic all throughout a 3-rune, which is the standard. The way I always thought of it was - if it helped my character survive to the extended-game in the first place, then it was worthwhile to have it even its usefulness dips thereafter.

[Grimm]

groupthink - easy to start, difficult to stop

[WildSam]

I'm not sure I'd say that "end game which is longer than the 3 runer game" is true:

  Code:

 avg(turn)=105433.29
avg(turn)=222819.76

?

Also rN is somewhat (orcs! shadow dragons!) useful in 3rune. Subject mutations practically arent at all after some point.
Especially ignite blood. Epsecially when it requires definite playstile (pure casters usually dont have many ways to spill blood). I think its already kinda strong drawback.
Also not sure if midgame-oriented mutations are good for ds. Always thought ds' overall idea is "rise slower, adjust, shine later".

[crate]

?

Actually let me refine the query; I forgot that there are several games which are excessively long because they are trying to be excessively long:

  Code:

<Sequell> 5026 games for * (won urune=3 turn<300000): avg(dur)=10:16:39; avg(turn)=105168.31
Sequell> 2481 games for * (won urune>=13 turn<400000): avg(dur)=19:39:59; avg(turn)=164615.38

<Sequell> 1092 games for * (recent won urune=3 turn<300000): avg(dur)=9:33:46; avg(turn)=95614.85
<Sequell> 563 games for * (recent won urune>=13 turn<400000): avg(dur)=18:42:07; avg(turn)=150825.33

As you see excluding excessively long games doesn't really change 3 rune wins at all, but it makes it clear that the 12 runes afterward do indeed take fewer turns.
(For the record excluding 13 and 14 rune games doesn't change the stats very much)

Anyway I don't see a problem with some ds mutations not being great in extended. Certainly I think this is less of a problem than e.g. getting demonic guardian after you worship okawaru, or getting nightstalker when you don't want it (since it is an exceedingly annoying mutation in some ways).

[Bim]

?

Anyway I don't see a problem with some ds mutations not being great in extended. Certainly I think this is less of a problem than e.g. getting demonic guardian after you worship okawaru, or getting nightstalker when you don't want it (since it is an exceedingly annoying mutation in some ways).

This is the truth. I don't mind the draconian 'mutation' being random, as it has no harmful (see annoying) effects other than possibly needing to reskill, but if you get demonic guardian after Oka, you're pretty much screwed, and (depending on play style) oka can have a pretty bad wrath. I think the best way would just be to special case demonic guardians.

I don't mind that not everything is useful throughout every part of the game, as long as it doesn't damage you directly, as part of the trade off for having bad aptitudes is having all useful mutations.

[Bomanz]

Yeah the Okawaru thing is annoying and 'spoilery' in the sense that newer players won't know not to choose Okawaru until later, if at all. Especially when Okawaru seems to be good for hybrid playstyles, which suit DS very well.

I think that the game should give you an inclination that you are going to eventually get the demonic guardian (and nightstalker?) mutations very early on, like by level 3.

[nicolae]

A commit just went in, if you're worshipping Okawaru you won't receive any demonic guardians. (You can still have the mutation, it just won't do anything.)

[dassem]

By "27 zig" do you really mean 729 zig floors or one complete zig?

I think nicolae is right - in my opinion new mutations would be likely to be more interesting than modifying existing ones.

In any case, I think I disagree with the idea of modifying PBD in that way. It seemed to me that where it worked, this effect was already a little overpowered. As such, the fact that it doesn't work everywhere serves to balance it out nicely. If one added demon kills to PBD, then it would definitely be overpowered unless the rate was nerfed. However, I think I personally like the idea of mutations that are really good in specific circumstances but may be useless in others, rather than just fairly useful all the time...


Well, having said all that, one idea that just occurred to me is that a really nasty twist to this mutation (or a new, related one) could be to make it stronger and apply to everything, but otherwise cut your natural regeneration rate. You could ultimately make it so the only way to heal would be by killing things.

[red_kangaroo]

Well, having said all that, one idea that just occurred to me is that a really nasty twist to this mutation (or a new, related one) could be to make it stronger and apply to everything, but otherwise cut your natural regeneration rate. You could ultimately make it so the only way to heal would be by killing things.

That would be great! Feeling pretty demonic.

[cerebovssquire]

Well, having said all that, one idea that just occurred to me is that a really nasty twist to this mutation (or a new, related one) could be to make it stronger and apply to everything, but otherwise cut your natural regeneration rate. You could ultimately make it so the only way to heal would be by killing things.

I don't like how this is exactly like playing a DD of Makhleb. I think Ds mutations should add something unique to the game, instead of functionally making you randomly play some other race.

[dassem]

I don't like how this is exactly like playing a DD of Makhleb. I think Ds mutations should add something unique to the game, instead of functionally making you randomly play some other race.

I think you're right on both counts.
I'd forgotten about DD and was liking the way my suggestion was different from vampires.
Anyway, that sounds like another good reason to keep the PBD mutation the way it is.

[sanka]

Thinking a little while reading trough the proposals I start to feel that coming up with enough game changing mutaions are hard, so unlikely to lead anywhere soon.

Personaly I like the "move nightstalker to halflings" idea the best (of course severly nerfing aptitudes). I would like both halflings and demonspawn much more than now - I could play with a game changing mutation when I feel so, I can play DS without the annoyance that random nightstalker mutation would annoy me, and nightstalker (which is a very powerful mutation) can be balanced much much better (we can make new halflings as fragile as we wish).

[cerebovssquire]

I'd forgotten about DD

I understand and envy you, I myself would love to forget the masochistic torment I endured while playing DDs

Flavourwise, doesn't nightstalker seem to fit a kobold much better though? Not only is nightstalker pretty much the last thing I would attribute to a hobbit (let's not kid ourselves here, they are hobbits ). Gameplay-wise, halflings are the race I associate most with ridiculous stats and defensive aptitudes. I think they are further into this niche than kobolds (see: dex gain, tloc aptitude, shields aptitude), and that they should keep it. Additionally, kobolds fit the "dark and evil" trope I would associate with nightstalker better. Not to mention that a race with positive tloc (halflings do have +2 tloc or +1 tloc, right? I forget - disregard this point if I'm wrong) shouldn't have an ability that conflicts with translocations.

[LordLovebone]

After taking into consideration the responses here and comparing it to the game, I now agree that some mutations shouldn't be relevant for pan etc. Making pan more difficult is a good thing in my opinion -- having mutations not work there isn't a bad thing.

Thanks for your insight!