Magic 27

[danr]

So it seems there is some mystical draw toward 27 - 27 levels in the main dungeon, 27 gods, 27 backgrounds have all been expressed as goals.

Backgrounds are just about there, there are now 28 in trunk. What should go?
The following are the ones that have the least going for them from my perspective, but I haven't played them a lot either:
- Artificer (though this is the only class based on evocations)
- Stalker - Do we need two classes with fulsome dist and evaporation?
- Arcane Marksman? as much as I like the idea of it, they are also a bit redundant between hunters and crusaders.

Also, to achieve 27, we need three more species!

[zasvid]

I think Death Knights should be removed. Yredelemnul doesn't seem appropriate as a starting god, as there's very little playstyle definition.

Yredelemnul is useful for a starting background. He provides necromantic abilities to fighter types and any new players which might be inspired to play a character based on a popular trope of death knights will immediately recognise how to achieve it, because of the obvious name. Plus, Yred is more fun than his description suggests him to be and without a starting background players might be wary of trying him out in the temple (I know I was).

Also, rushing into adding new stuff to reach the number 27 will only cause that stuff to be replaced and/or brutally mutated later. This might or might not be a good thing -> you get more testing, but a bad idea already implemented might repel a better idea that would have to replace it to keep stuff at 27 for a significant time, due to inertion.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I'd vote the Conjuror. They feel a bit... redundant. They start with (as Humans) 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 4 Conjurations. Fire gets Magic Dart, Throw Flame, Conjure Flame, Stone Arrow, Bolt of Magma, and Fireball. Ice gets Magic Dart, Mephitic Cloud, Static Discharge, Bolt of Bold, and Freezing Cloud.

In comparison, (Human) Wizards get 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 3 Spellcast, 1 Conjure, 1 Transloc, and 1 in your chosen school. Fire book has Magic Dart, Spammals, Blink, Throw Flame, Conjure Flame, Mephitic Cloud, and Slow, three of the same starting spells, much more utility, and all are usable early on, whereas Fireball and Freezing Cloud are way down the road. Ice book has Magic Dart, Blink, Throw Frost, Sticks to Snakes, Ozocub's Armor, Meph Cloud, and Slow. Again, same situation. Wizards can also choose to start with Summonings, Conjurors only get fire and ice.

Also compare the Fire Elementalist, who has access to the same spells and simply moves three points from Conjure to Fire. Ice Elementalist is the same stat-wise, but has Magic Dart, Throw Frost, Oz's Armor, Throw Icicle, Summon Ice Beast, and Freezing Cloud. And not to mention, there's also Air, Earth, and Poison Elementalists (aka Venom Mage on the latter). Again, Conjurors only get fire and ice.

Basically, there's very little differentiation between Conjureors and Elementalists. Wizards are, in my opinion, just plain better with more accessible spells, more utilitarian spells, and having their starting skills invested in a skill that's important for all magic and hard to train. That same skill also gives them more starting mana, so they can pop off more than two magic darts without running dry.

I also have another alternative, though the current direction things are going the devs disagree with me on this one. But, I'd say clean up the clutter on the classes and merged some. All elementalists are pretty much identical other than starting book. Fire Ele, Ice Ele, Air Ele, Earth Ele, and Venom Mage can all be rolled into an "Elementalist" class and the player simply chooses which book they start with. You still have the same options, but the backgrounds are cleaned up. However, based on what I'm seeing with the religious classes, the devs want one class for each other, so they may not like that idea.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Sounds like I need to update my Trunk copy then. My other idea still stands, though I don't think the devs will agree with it. It always seemed silly that each Elementalist had their own class when they're all essentially the same besides starting book/magic school.

Edit: Ok, I see the new wizard and I'm not sure I like it...

[KoboldLord]

Cut non-magic backgrounds to two, one ranged and one melee. Cut conjurors, because half the magic backgrounds are actually conjurations-focused. Refocus the four elementalists so they have a couple decent conjurations without typecasting it entirely (fire elementalist, I'm looking at you). Rename healer as priest, cutting the Zin version.

Then we have room to add some more distinct ones to get back up to 27, if that's a goal.

[Sealer]

Why in the name of holy should any class go...

The biggest offenders are:

Conjurers - should definitely stay, especially after the changes, feel very distinct from other classes. There is overlap in FE/ Cj(fire) but it's not huge.

Death Knights - Yred is most fun as a starting God, as his abillities diminish in usefulness later on in game.

If anything, remove fighters. They suck.

(the last part is a joke)

[KoboldLord]

Cut non-magic backgrounds to two, one ranged and one melee.

What about assassins?

No problem. Picking the Archer background prompts you for a choice of ranged weapon, of which one choice is blowgun. The blowgun comes with the former assassin's needles. The Archer does not get a prompt for melee weapon, of course; that's the domain of the Warrior which gets staves and unarmed combat in addition to the options shared by fighters and gladiators in the current list.

[Sealer]

Yred is most fun as a starting God, as his abillities diminish in usefulness later on in game.

This simply isn't true. Pain mirror and bone dragon gifts are awesome throughout.

How often do bone dragon gifts come in? Not very often last I played Yred (which is admittably quite a long time ago)

Pain mirror is great, but it sucks piety dry very fast. Room draining is great too, but suffers from big piety costs too.

So far I have yet to gain any interest in Yred again...

[MrMisterMonkey]

Yred gifts are better now.

As for arguing for keeping Yred as a starting god, I'd say it both does the ally playstyle quite well (both simpler and more synergistic (drain life) early on than a reanimating necromancer, with more powerful allies too (bone dragons); my only worry here is that it overlaps with beogh, but I'd still like to keep it) and is a good for new players (simple, nice for learning to use panic buttons, meat/bone/maize shields for damage absorption and escape). If I had any other points I probably forgot them.

Maybe I'm weird but I rather like Yred except for the ally herding, which drove me crazy. No interlevel autotravel (lest you abandon your precious bone dragons) and recalling and waiting at every staircase is quite painful. This isn't really a problem until later, though, when you actually get bone dragons, so I still like Yred as a starting god.

[OneTrueFelid]

To be fair, Yred does significantly drop off in value later on. His piety comes in less frequently, he uses it up very quickly on panic buttons/danger buttons like Drain Life and Pain Mirror, Enslave Soul uses up a ton of it if you want a neat unique/powerful ally, and zombies become less and less useful as the enemies get tougher and tougher. You could argue that your zombies get tougher as well, since you're making them from enemy corpse and all, but that doesn't hold up well when, say, you're in Zot and you have three draconian zombies against a draconian shifter, a draconian annihilator, and a draconian caller. Bone Dragons won't always be the toughest things around, even if you cast Haste on them. Basically, Yred doesn't give piety for everything you kill (like Okawaru and Makhleb) and uses it up much, much faster than either of them.

[MrMisterMonkey]

That's irrelevant to Yred's position as a starting god, though.

[OneTrueFelid]

I think he should stay as a starting god. I like him there. D: It puts him in the environment where he shines instead of leaving him as a bad option for play later that nobody will ever touch.

[danr]

Some comments in light of the above:

- Death Knights were only recently added back in (albeit perhaps as a result of the cleaning up of priests) so I doubt devs would be keen on taking them out. But the analogy to Makhleb is a good one I think.

- I don't think the devs would be receptive to merging melee classes into one superclass and ranged into another. To preserve all the different types of starts you would have to add a lot of options to this class - and that is one thing they are trying to reduce.
- Having just have one generic fighter package without options would close that one background off to a lot of species that don't have good aptitudes for the particular generic build that is chosen - shields vs no shields makes a big difference (Yes it does).

- With the above approach, it would be easier if anything to collapse all the elementalists into one superclass and just provide a choice of starting books.

[MrMisterMonkey]

elementalists are more different from each other than the melee classes

[TwilightPhoenix]

All stats are humans.

Fire Elementalist: 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 1 Conjurations, 3 Fire Magic
Flame Tongue, Throw Flame, Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame, Bolt of Fire, Fireball

Ice Elementalist: 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 1 Conjurations, 3 Ice Magic
Freeze, Throw Frost, Ozocubu's Armor, Throw Icicle, Summon Ice Beast, Freezing Cloud

Air Elementalist: 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 1 Conjurations, 3 Air Magic
Shock, Swiftness, Repel Missiles, Levitation, Mephitic Cloud, Static Discharge

Earth Elementalist: 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 1 Conjurations, 3 Earth Magic
Sandblast, Stone Skin, Passwall, Stone Spear, Petrify, Lee's Rapid Desconstruction

Venom Mage: 2 Dodge, 2 Stealth, 1 Spellcasting, and 4 Poison Magic
Sting, Cure Poison, Poison Weapon, Mephitic Cloud, Venom Bolt


Actually, all the Elementalists are quite similar with the exception of the Venom Mage. All have the exact same stat distribution, all have the same starting number of spells, all have spells that appear to emphasis spellcasting over melee/missiles, and all follows a basic spell pattern. The only difference is the starting spell book, but they follow a similar pattern (with some overlap). All of them have at least a pair of damage spells: All of fire, Freeze/Throw Frost/Throw Icicle/Freeze Cloud, Shock/Static, Sandblast/Stone Spear/LRD. All of them have a way to control opponents: Conjure Flame, Freezing Cloud or Freeze (against cold blooded), Mephitic Cloud, and Petrify. All but fire have a defense spell: Oz Armor, Stone Skin, and Repel Missiles. The last two spells fit the school's theme and are the more unique ones for each school. Fire has Sticky Flame and Fireball, Ice has Summon Ice Beast and then either Freeze Cloud or Throw Ice (ignore resistance), Air has Swift and Levi, and Earth has Passwall and LRD.

But really, those four classes really are not that different. The only different is the starting book and the spells therein. Each school of magic (in and outside this class) as it's own play styles and flavors and those, of course, show. But putting them into an Elementalist class and keeping the same books would not lose any of that flavor or harm the class in any way. Same stats, same starting spell book, just condensed into one class.

Venom Mage is a little different and does make a case for being independent, contrary to what I previously though. Slightly different stats, fewer spells, and spells that are not obviously for casters only. Poison Weapon seems to suggest hybrid play is encouraged, but the stats don't support that. Venom Mage can stay independent, especially since Stalkers don't start with an extremely similar book anymore. Although not directly related to this discussion, Venom Mages could use a small tweak. Either make stats more hybrid friendly (move stealth to a weapon school, maybe small blades) or replace Poison Weapon (although poison magic is seriously lacking in spell quantity, so not sure what to replace it with). Maybe a level two Poison/Conjurations Throw Poison spell, similar to Throw Flame/Frost?

[galehar]

Actually, all the Elementalists are quite similar with the exception of the Venom Mage. All have the exact same stat distribution, all have the same starting number of spells, all have spells that appear to emphasis spellcasting over melee/missiles, and all follows a basic spell pattern.

Maybe, but they play very differently. And also races have different aptitudes for elemmental skills, how would you handle recommendations?

[MrMisterMonkey]

written befor galehar:

1) venom magi are fine hybrids as-is, but please don't push them into that. please don't give them "throw poison", either; it's needless symmetry (and there's too much as-is).

2) yes, the books are what differentiate elementalists (is this really a problem? spell selection is one of the most important factors in playstle). yes, they all deal damage. yes, they all have some deal of defense. but are these ways of dealing damage and defense different? while the classes' playstyles don't differ quite enough for my tastes, they are indeed different (and should stay interesting that way, and I'd hope move further apart). for instance, freezing cloud play is very different from the other "damage spell" play (perhaps most similar to conjure flame, as it encourages keeping things in a single place (but it also works splendidly against groups and in corridors)). shock encourages setting things up at walls; do the other elementalists do that? static discharge hurts enemies around the caster, rather than being single target or letting you fling it around. (I could go on and on, but see the next point)

3) as I mentioned in the previous point, there is still a good bit of playstyle overlap and lack of definition (they each have a few defining spells (at least at certain stages, encouraging different progressions in style) but the roles themselves aren't very clear-cut (which may be a good thing)). rather than pretending the elementalists all play enough the same to shove them into the same class, I propose gradually fixing them up to feel more unique; here are a few ideas on defining them more:
earth should really benefit from use of walls and stones (at the moment, stone arrow is their main damage source). sandblast is good but it won't last for too long. passwall is good for stabbers but I imagine it's a bit lackluster for everyone else. petrify is good for escape and stabbing and is supposed to be good with lrd, but usually isn't worth it. lrd does poor damage, itself, too. earth also makes sense for defenses, I guess, so statue form & stoneskin work. leda's liquefaction goes well with earth manipulation, too, and so does shatter a bit. earth conjurations are a bit boring, though.
fire is currently about lots of damage, which is fine, as long as it can find interesting ways to do this and the other schools don't end up stealing its thunder here. it also sort of has a thing going for damage over time with conjure flame, sticky flame, and ring of flames (and fire storm clouds but the main point of that spell is doing a bunch of blasty damage to a lot of things), but those spells are probably enough for this style.
air is currently a bit conflicted between avoiding damage (swiftness kiting, meph disabling, repel missiles repelling missiles, airstrike smiting, and tornado killing everything) and putting oneself into danger for extra damage (bolt bouncing, static discharge, conjure ball lightning, chain lighting). this could be an interesting combination, though, so just emphasizing it a bit could be fine.
I'm not really sure what ice is about; it's probably about flexibility or something, containing little bits of everything.


written after galehar:

presumably you'd determine the recommendations the same way you recommend conjurers or fighters for races with differing apts

[dpeg]

The 27 is just a piece of Crawl humour, but I think most folks like it. Also, it is old. As old as Crawl.
What I particularly like is how arbitrary numbers, like number of levels, number of skill levels etc., which usually are multiples of 10 are the much more beautiful 27 in Crawl. So it's not just humour, but also aesthetics.
There is no need to force one background to resign right now. Backgrounds are much more arbitrary than species or gods, because you can merge or split them with suboptions. However, once we're at 27 species and 27 gods (will take a while, don't hold your breath), it'd be nice to have the backgrounds conform.

[galehar]

Yes, 27 is a beautiful number. It's 3^3. I think roguelike game design is a lot about the beauty of mathematics and randomness. That being said, we won't rush poorly designed gods or remove perfectly good backgrounds just to reach the number. It's just something to keep in the back of your mind when brainstorming. We need many more gods, some more races, but not more backgrounds. So better focus on the weak ones (weak as design, not as game power) and either fix them or remove them.

[danr]

To be clear, I do not think the elementalist backgrounds should be merged. My point was just that in terms of starting options, they would be simpler to merge than melee / ranged classes while still preserving the current range of options.

Background is more about starting equipment and skills than it is about playstyle, and the point about having to handle "recommended" classes is a good one. Even if certain classes play similarly, it's good to have them as different backgrounds because they will work differently for different species.

[danr]

Also re beautiful numbers:

If there were 27 gods, species and backgrounds, you would have 27 * 27 * 27 possible combinations (excluding weapon / spellbook choices)

27 * 27 *27 = 27^3 = 3^3^3

The total number of comwould be just shy of 20,000 (19,683).

Trying to ascend with each one would probably take many lifetimes...

[TGW]

Elementalists are all completely different. I question whether you've actually played them all.

[danr]

Elementalists are all completely different. I question whether you've actually played them all.

I may have played each one once. I know they play very differently, my point was about their starting gear, stats and skills, not about how they play.

I just checked and HuFE, HuIE, HuEE and HuAE and I can describe them all with only a few variations:
HP: 10
MP: 3
AC: 2
EV: 12
Str: 8
Int: 15
Dex: 13
Skills:
Dodging: 2
Stealth: 2
Spellcasting: 1
Conjurations: 1 (except EE has Transmutations 1 instead)
Elemental school: 3 (as appropriate)
Equipment:
a robe
a bread ration
a spellbook (as appropriate)
* EEs also get 20 stones.

All four options could be rolled into one class without losing any actual choice, provided that there was a choice of spellbooks which would affect their starting skills just as ice/fire conjurer choice does.

Compare this to Monk / Fighter / Gladiator. To merge those and still provide the full range of choice currently available you would have to have a choice of weapon type, shield / buckler / no shield, throwing nets yes/no, trident / spear, robe / leather / scale. There are probably also differences in Str / Int / Dex between the three, and it would be really novel to let the player choose how to allocate their Str / Dex in character creation.

That was my point. I don't think anything should be merged, but if it was, I'm just saying that elementalists would be easier to merge from the perspective of starting options without actually sacrificing currently available choices.

[Curio]

Trying to ascend with each one would probably take many lifetimes...

That's why Crawl is number one choice to play for those in afterlife.
At least it's gonna be for me. Heh.

Elementalists are all completely different.

I agree. Starting spells are more important. Elementalist seems similar for one reason - word "elementalist" in their names


On a completely different note. Too lazy to start new thread so post here.

Hunters lack a choice. For example, I want to play Hill orc with a crossbow (-1 apt but high strenghth)
Or even Kobold crossbowman with smoking +2 apt. Imagine this little bugger pincushioning ogres with his x-bow.
Or halflings, centaurs, high elf with throwing as main starting skill.

Possible solutions are as follows:
1) Split hunter background into: Bowman, Crossbowman, Slinger, Thrower (this one probably should have better name)

2) Add a weapon query for hunters

I don't even know which is better but having a choice is good.

[danr]

Did you read my post? Elementalists also seem similar because their starting stats, skills and gear are identical save for their spellbook, one or two magic skills, and some rocks for earth elementalists.

But whatever, no one is suggesting merging them. The playstyle difference warrants keeping them as separate classes.

Re: Hunters:

I know there is an intent to limit starting selections but I think as a general rule a single level of choice is not a major problem. It's standard for fighters to be able to choose a weapon, I don't see in principle why hunters could not have the same.

For throwing, would it be darts, or a couple of spears? And if choosing slings, you would get a buckler as Halfling Hunters currently do?

[Curio]

For throwing, would it be darts, or a couple of spears? And if choosing slings, you would get a buckler as Halfling Hunters currently do?

Javelins would be more viable choice but I think everything should be adjusted to race. Draconian slingers won't have buckler naturally, for example.
(However it irks me why they can't handle bucklers - they are not as big as Trolls or ogres)

OR
for throwing it could be both - blowgun (right now it's almost exclusive to assasins) and some darts. Javelins quite powerful for starting with them.

[danr]

I guess throwing nets would also be a hunting tool. Blowgun + a few nets would be an interesting hunter style for throwing.

If hunters could have blowguns, that would really make assassins pretty redundant. That's not a reason against it, it's just that we would then have to think about what to do with assassins. Perhaps a "thief" class could be redeveloped out of it?

[Curio]

I guess throwing nets would also be a hunting tool. Blowgun + a few nets would be an interesting hunter style for throwing.

Would be cool, but nets are scarce in the Dungeon, so after you throw starting ones - good luck finding replacement.

If hunters could have blowguns, that would really make assassins pretty redundant. That's not a reason against it, it's just that we would then have to think about what to do with assassins. Perhaps a "thief" class could be redeveloped out of it?

I disagree. Weapon types should not be exclusive for certain backgrounds = Blowguns should not be exclusive for assasins.
Assasins use blowgun as a supporting weapon - not main. Playing relying mostly on needles (without stealth and fighting) - is quite different story.
Let's compare:
HuAs - Fighting:2, ShortBL:2, Throwing:2, Dodging:1, Stealth:3, Stabbing:2.

HuHu - Fighting:1, No melee spec., Bows:4, Dodging:2, Stealth:1, No stabbing.

Based on that Human hunter with blowgun could have this stats:
Fighting:1, No melee spec., Throwing:4, Dodging:2, Stealth:1, No stabbing.
And start with blowgun, some needles and/or some darts/nets.

I'm don't see any overlap at all to tinker with assasins.

[KoboldLord]

- I don't think the devs would be receptive to merging melee classes into one superclass and ranged into another. To preserve all the different types of starts you would have to add a lot of options to this class - and that is one thing they are trying to reduce.

They seem to be okay with having one weapon prompt in a background, and that's all my suggestion requires. Pick your main weapon and play.

- Having just have one generic fighter package without options would close that one background off to a lot of species that don't have good aptitudes for the particular generic build that is chosen - shields vs no shields makes a big difference (Yes it does).

If you pick a weapon that goes with a shield, you get a shield. If you pick a weapon that does not, you don't. As a practical matter, this means that unarmed and staff users don't get shields but everybody else does. If you are aiming for a big two-hander, just appreciate the extra survivability until you find one.

Similarly, there's no reason for the initial background to be concerned about whether the player is planning to go heavy armor or evasion. Just give a couple levels of both dodging and armor, and the one that the player doesn't choose simply won't train much more. You'll 'waste' that much xp in the opposite skill by the midgame anyway, regardless of what your plan is.

- With the above approach, it would be easier if anything to collapse all the elementalists into one superclass and just provide a choice of starting books.

I can acknowledge this as a workable idea, but the air elementalist is significantly different than the others. I'd rather the other three get changed so they're all as distinct as the air elementalist than just fuse them all a single blasty background.

[coyo7e]

Why do elementalists need four character slots? They seem effectively identical except for books, and EEs getting a pile of stones. Couldn't they be put into one character slot with 4 book choices?

[dpeg]

All kinds of backgrounds could be conflated. My personal yardstick is this: Reading a combination (or its abbreviation), how much does it tell you about the character? And here you see that Priest didn't say a lot, so we split it up. The choices among Fighters, say, are much less crucial. Having one Elementalist background would make the subchoice more relevant than the nominal background. And that's why I don't like that idea so much.

[danr]

Thanks, it's good to know the main principle behind your thinking on separating / joining backgrounds.

How does that apply to conjurers? Is the ice / fire conjurer choice as important as the one between ice / fire elementalists?

[dpeg]

Yes, conjurers are problematic: their choice of book matters a lot.
I was very happy when MarvinPA steppd up and made the Wizard a one-book background.

[mad]

I love the one book wizards, they are so diverse - you can branch out into pretty much anything, and you have so many utility spells. It's becoming a new favourite background. It's very thematic, too, as one would expect wizards to have access to a large amount of arcane knowledge.

I was trying to get a KeSu off the ground for the longest time but my KeWi are having so much more traction thanks to the magic dart spell and with summon imp I can train summoning and hopefully get some good summoning book gifts.

Of course, none have started worshipping Vehumet yet - it seems he never spawns in the temple for me KeWi, and instead only the stupid vault with the altar surrounded by trees that I can never find a wand to burn them with (that's how you get into it right, burning the trees?).

I just went off on a wee tangent there. I just wanted to say how great Wizard seems to be now, with a clear role (a sort of magical generalist), and a lot of useful spells, but as they're all different schools it limits you a little because you can't get them all at Excellent too quickly. Thanks, MarvinPA if you're reading this!

[varkarrus]

3 new races needed?

Hamsterfolk
Homunculus
Warforged (!!!)

[TGW]

Reserve one slot for lava orcs and another for nomes.

[casmith789]

- Having just have one generic fighter package without options would close that one background off to a lot of species that don't have good aptitudes for the particular generic build that is chosen - shields vs no shields makes a big difference (Yes it does).

If you pick a weapon that goes with a shield, you get a shield. If you pick a weapon that does not, you don't. As a practical matter, this means that unarmed and staff users don't get shields but everybody else does. If you are aiming for a big two-hander, just appreciate the extra survivability until you find one.

Unarmed goes with shields.

Why do elementalists need four character slots? They seem effectively identical except for books, and EEs getting a pile of stones. Couldn't they be put into one character slot with 4 book choices?

Elementalists are completely different. The only similarity is really the name.

At xl1

AE - long range boltbouncing attack that makes noise
FE/EE - short range attack that misses, EE get the opportunity to upgrade it using a material component
IE - range 1 attack that doesn't miss, does more damage.

At xl2

AE - swiftness for kiting
FE/IE - long range attack that doesn't make noise
EE - defence

At xl3

AE - mephitic cloud for tricky enemies or to run
FE - conjure flame for extra damage / to help running away
IE - ozocubu's armour for defence
EE - stone arrow for a mid range attack that does a ton of damage

At xl4

AE - bad, range 1 self damaging multitarget spell
IE - midrange conjuration that does a lot of damage
FE - range 1 conjuration with a multiturn effect
EE - attack to slow/paralyse enemies for defence or attack

etc

So they all have completely different methods.