Vehumet piety gain

[Curio]

I'll be short on this one.

  Code:

Vehumet says: Let it end in hellfire!
You slash the crocodile!
You kill the crocodile!
Vehumet accepts your kill.

For a magic oriented god it's pretty flavorless to gain piety from melee kills.
IMHO, it's better to grant piety only for kills using magic.

[TGW]

Isn't it enough to not gain benefits for melee?

Isn't it tedious for hybrid-types to be forced to use magic to kill everything, especially for summoners?

[Curio]

"Isn't it enough to not gain benefits for melee?"
For magic-user, no, not really.

"Isn't it tedious for hybrid-types to be forced to use magic to kill everything..."
No - it's your choice of taking path of pure destructive magic. If you are not sure you can handle bringing hellfire to this world - choose Sif Muna instead.

"especially for summoners?"
Summoned creatures are drawn with magic to this plane - therefore count as kill using magic


From his in-game description:
"Vehumet is a God of the destructive powers of magic"
See, it' s not
"Vehumet is a God of the destructive powers of magic and what not"

[onryo]

The thing about summoned creatures is that you only gain half experience if you don't make the final blow yourself. If you had to let the summoned creature make the final blow to gain piety, you'd have to find some balance between experience and piety gain. Also, what if you took Vehumet without any magic, because he'll eventually grant spellbooks? Shouldn't that be possible?

[danr]

There's a difference between Sif Muna and Vehumet. Sif is a magic nerd and only rewards the training of magic.

Vehumet is more like a God of Death who happens to focus on boosts to conjurations to help you with that. It's similar to Makhleb who wants you to kill everything, but doesn't particularly care if you use demonic summons or hurling destruction to do it.

That makes it more suited to a Reaver playstyle, where it's all about killing things at range with magic, but also killing things up close in melee. Melee thus fills the gaps that other wizards would fill with blinking away or whatever.

[TGW]

I mean it's tedious to summon something just to finish off something weak.

"For magic-user, no, not really." What does this mean? Vehumet gives bonuses to magic use and none to melee. This is enough without requiring people to use all magic all the time.

[Curio]

What does this mean? Vehumet gives bonuses to magic use and none to melee. This is enough without requiring people to use all magic all the time.

Trog doesn't give any bonuses to magic (D'oh).
Why the heck you want melee bonuses from pure magic god?

"I mean it's tedious to summon something just to finish off something weak."
That's why choosing Sif for summoner is wiser.

"Vehumet is more like a God of Death who happens to focus on boosts to conjurations to help you with that. It's similar to Makhleb who wants you to kill everything, but doesn't particularly care if you use demonic summons or hurling destruction to do it."
For me, Vehumet is more like Trog for magic users - pure force of destruction. Similar, Okawaru to Sif - mastery through skill.

"Also, what if you took Vehumet without any magic, because he'll eventually grant spellbooks? Shouldn't that be possible?"
That is possible. Also it is possible yo choose Chei for spriggan. If you could do something - doesn't mean it's smart to do this. Therefore, choosing Veh without spellcasting is pretty dumb idea. =/

[MrMisterMonkey]

1) veh isn't a pure magic god and tgw doesn't want melee bonuses. tgw wants to prove a point.
2) the same tedium applies to finishing things off with conjurations
3) well thinking of veh that way is your problem
4) stop basing everything on your concept of vehumet's flavour; base it on gameplay reasons

[Curio]

"My problem?"
My only problems are in my day-to-day life - nowhere near Crawl or this forums. Way to go passive aggressive there =)

"stop basing everything on your concept of vehumet's flavour; base it on gameplay reasons"
Change description then at least. His aforementioned flavor contradicts "veh isn't a pure magic god" statement.

I wash my hands. If everyone fond of magic god appreciating melee kills, so be it. I'm just gonna use magic-only with him out of principle

[galehar]

For a magic oriented god it's pretty flavorless to gain piety from melee kills.
IMHO, it's better to grant piety only for kills using magic.

But we don't want to make Vehumet a niche god for pure casters, he must be an option for hybrids too. And for hybrids, he only boost half your playstyle and that's it. Preventing piety gain for melee kills would encourage the degenerate behaviour of finishing off enemies with spells.

The thing about summoned creatures is that you only gain half experience if you don't make the final blow yourself.

The race for the final blow is another example of a degenerate behaviour which is a consequence of a bad game mechanism. This is going to be fixed soon (XP given in proportion to damage dealt), so don't design gods based on it.