Pandemonium Revisions

[Alec]

Hi all. After the new abyss, I got to thinking about all of the other end game demon branches, and fell to Pandemonium. To me, it seems to lack a definite place in the Crawl "multiverse", and also to simply seem like a flavorless infinite grinding area full of demons at the end of the game.

Hell is the deepest darkest place of evil, so it makes sense for it to have demons. In addition it has hell effects, which gives it flavor. Its so evil that it rebells against you, also effecting game play by making it impossible to safely rest with out Zin.
The Abyss has not only demons, but a multitude of other monsters also there. These other beings, along with the random changing terrain, flesh out the flavor of the abyss as a sort of chaotic prison where forgotten evil creatures and Lugonu.
Pan, however, doesn't really fit into any sensible niche. It can't be where demons come from. Not only is that already taken by Hell in the game and mythology, but it also doesn't make sense why there would be Holy levels of Pan if demons came from it. So if its not there home place, why are there tons of demons in Pan? And also, why are there angles and shrines to holy gods?

The only thing that makes sense to me, is that Pandemonium is an infinite plane that was once occupied by some other type of entity, and has hence been invaded by many different factions. The main conquerers were demons, as it is not only in their nature to conquer everything, but they are very numerous (you fight quite a few on your way to the realm of Zot).

What does this wall of text mean for game play? Well, if we accept the fact that Pan is not a demonic or angelic realm, but simply a place that can be conquered, then we can add additional types of levels that don't just involve more and more demons. Because the function of Pan is to allow an infinite expanse where, with good play on the part of the player and planning for many different scenarios, anything can be found, adding variety to the experience of Pan can only help by breaking up the monotony and adding additional challenges the player must be prepared for.
I was thinking that perhaps it would be good to add levels that have been conquered by gods other than the good ones. Kiku and Makhleb levels would be rather similar to Pan right now, but castles full of the most powerful warriors (and warrior spellcasters) who venerate Oku in addition to his favored monsters could be cool. Also, secluded schools of magic full of Sif's chosen archmages would be a challenge for any player.
I also had an idea to add a "native" level, that is a Pan level filled with the original inhabitants of Pan. Using the walls as inspiration, these would be strange alien creatures with many eyes/mouths/whatevers, such as Tentacled Monstrosities, Abominations, floating eyes (though I guess this sort of infringes on Jiyva's territory), and new monsters simmilar to the Argos or Gibbering Mouther from Dnd who will interact with the dungeon terrain, creating/destroying walls, transforming walls into monsters, summoning monsters from the woodwork of the level, ect. I think that by adding these "native" Pan monsters, we can give it a definite feel and charge it from generic demon place number three, while also adding more variety to help with the infinite feel of Pan. I'm sure that many people have more ideas as to what they want to see, and they would be much better than mine alone.
These ideas for new levels could also include new runes, adding to the 8 endgame bosses currently in place.

Over all, I think that by adding more levels to Pan we can make the plane feel more infinite, giving it a flavor and forcing the player have to prepare more. This will also add variety to the end game and keep all the end of game bad guys from being just more and more demons.

[mrbobbyg]

I think this is a really, really, cool idea. It seems like it would take a ton of work to do, but yes, it would be great fun to play.

[jejorda2]

Pandemonium
Pan Demon Ium
All Demons Realm
Realm of All Demons

If it isn't the place with all the demons from Paradise Lost, then it isn't Pandemonium. They didn't come from Hell, they got sent there as punishment for rebelling against Heaven. They came from Pandemonium.

Maybe crawl needs a replacement for Pandemonium, or maybe Pandemonium needs to be removed, but if you take out the demons, it isn't really Pan.

[mumra]

If it isn't the place with all the demons from Paradise Lost, then it isn't Pandemonium. They didn't come from Hell, they got sent there as punishment for rebelling against Heaven. They came from Pandemonium.

Demons (in Hell, including the devil) are supposed to be angels that rebelled against heaven anyway ...

[mrbobbyg]

You could still have ever so many demons.

And yea, I agree that the name does imply demons, but come on, it's a cool idea to imagine that you could adventure to planes of existence flavoured with some/all of the crawl gods.

[dpeg]

There are two recent-ish bits about Pan theme I really like (and supported). First, the holy Pan level. I like it because it says that, at least in Crawl, holy might not be what you expect (which is not so far from the real world). Second, that the gates to (or rather from) Pan open once you pick up the orb. This seems to indicate that the panlords consider themselves as the keepers of the dungeon, in whatever sense.
I wouldn't like linking Pan levels to gods. There has been a tendency to link branches to gods, and while I am not always happy with that, it fits the Crawl world much better than having godly levels (all in my opinion).

[Bim]

The dictionary definition of pan is 'a place of uproar and chaos', unfortunately we already have that with the Abyss, but I realllly think Pan should be made more exciting. I like your idea of having more 'themed' levels (although I think these should just be put in the main dungeon) a lot, but would probably want to have a few more distinguishing features.

My idea (which I tried to implement at one point and got precisely no where) was to have pan as lots of interconnected dungeon levels/vaults, so it was infinite, but instead of stairs down, it was vaults or portals (which were very large, like the gnoll fortress sort of thing) which were connected to each other by long winding paths. Some of these vaults would have pan lords in them, and most would be flavoured. Some could obviously just be large spaces/randomised mini dungeons, but it'd make it a lot more interesting than just the abyss without the movement. Also, I do feel that all portals out should be put within vaults by pan lords - this would add more of a challenge as you coudn't just skip a level.

[nicolae]

The dictionary definition of pan is 'a place of uproar and chaos', unfortunately we already have that with the Abyss, but I realllly think Pan should be made more exciting. I like your idea of having more 'themed' levels (although I think these should just be put in the main dungeon) a lot, but would probably want to have a few more distinguishing features.

My idea (which I tried to implement at one point and got precisely no where) was to have pan as lots of interconnected dungeon levels/vaults, so it was infinite, but instead of stairs down, it was vaults or portals (which were very large, like the gnoll fortress sort of thing) which were connected to each other by long winding paths. Some of these vaults would have pan lords in them, and most would be flavoured. Some could obviously just be large spaces/randomised mini dungeons, but it'd make it a lot more interesting than just the abyss without the movement. Also, I do feel that all portals out should be put within vaults by pan lords - this would add more of a challenge as you coudn't just skip a level.

So, in other words, Pan would just be an endless series of encompass vaults?

[Bim]

Pretty much, there could be specific themed Pan vaults, corrupted versions of things like the Bailey and then random bits which are like Pan already (just sort of main dungeon type bits). It'd be a sort of endless, more coherent trial. Pan Lords obviously spice things up a bit as well, and with having to defeat them being the only way to open a portal (after a string of vaults) it'd become quite a challenge, rather than just a random map you wander around which sometimes has a Pan Lord, which you can just run away from to the next level if you don't like the look of them

[Mumcon]

Holy Pan was the most fun I ever had in Crawl. All the resurrecting monsters, pearl dragons, the silver star, and the randart large shields made the level for me.

I'd like to see more Holy Pan-like maps. In other words, very hard Pan floors that only spawn once. Their frequency, like Holy Pan, would be rare; maybe someone of them could only spawn after you'd obtained 1, 2, 3, or all 4 of the unique Pan runes. Like dpeg, I don't know if I'd care for God-themed Pan levels. Holy Pan is already a really worthwhile holy level. Taking Zig levels like deep dwarves as a basis seems like it would make more sense. A "Pandemonium lord hang-out" themed level could also be cool, though you'd have to deal with the fact that spells like Fire Storm will end up attracting every Pan lord in the level to you, at least if they can reach you (liberal use of runed doors?).

As for Pan overall: demons fit Pan's theme and difficulty well, but maybe it would be okay to add some more powerful Zot-grade (not Zot-only) monsters, to add a little variety and increase the difficulty.

In any case, IMO how interesting "different" levels of Pan can be depends on how many unutilized monsters there are. Deep dwarves and holy monsters are the two most underused classes of monsters that I'm aware of.

[nicolae]

Pretty much, there could be specific themed Pan vaults, corrupted versions of things like the Bailey and then random bits which are like Pan already (just sort of main dungeon type bits). It'd be a sort of endless, more coherent trial. Pan Lords obviously spice things up a bit as well, and with having to defeat them being the only way to open a portal (after a string of vaults) it'd become quite a challenge, rather than just a random map you wander around which sometimes has a Pan Lord, which you can just run away from to the next level if you don't like the look of them

Having to kill the Pan Lords to advance would probably make Pan much more difficult -- at present, squishy players still have the option of ninjaing the rune or sneaking past to a portal.

[Alec]

Alright, so it seems like everyone is behind more Pan diversity, which I think will have a positive effect on the Pan and late game experience, regardless of how the diversity is added.

I also agree that Pan should remain similar to how it is now, with mainly demon levels with the other levels included as rarities as Mumcon suggested and perhaps replacing some of the runes (ala Swamp/Shoals), but keeping the difficulty and generic floors the same.

I still don't think that it makes sense that Pan would be the homeland of demons as as opposed to Hell. In Hell, you are constantly having bad things happen to you while voices whispering that you don't belong. This is the reaction I would expect if I were to go and invade the place where demons come from. In Pan, none of that happens. I think that this makes Hell seem more evil, and seem more thematically appropriate for the land of demons. Also, the walls of Pan don't really scream demon to me. I've always regarded demons as a more "Orthodox" evil. Angels that rebelled against God or other beings of Evil don't really seem to be the type that would have walls and floors covered in eyes and mouths. That seems to be the more alien and will eat your brains evil than steal your soul evil. That was part of the reason why I suggested the new Pan level with the alien-esque creatures, because it seemed to fit the theme more, and it would be cool to have something to take advantage of the fact that the very Fabric of Pan looks alive.
I also took the appearance of Pan demons appearing after you stole to orb to mean that they were trying to take advantage of you stealing the orb, and wanted to kill you and take it now that someone had done the hard part of breaking into Zot for them.

As for the god levels, the only reason I suggested it was that the Holy Pan seemed like a god level to me. The layout implied that the Holy beings were sent there by their gods, and their gods told them all about how they should build their temples and stuff, and it seemed like the only explanation as to why angels would be hanging out in a place that had eyes for walls. It sounds like no one really likes the idea, and they have other ideas for adding variety which are better (like the Deep Dwarves).

Overall, I hope that we can replicate the fun that people had with the Holy level by adding more themed Pan levels.

[Galefury]

There was the idea to populate Pan mostly with demonspawn, who would have a class and a mutation. One major problem with this is coming up with names that are short enough. Stuff like "frostbound demonspawn berserker" (just a completely random example) is just too long.

[Sandman25]

There was the idea to populate Pan mostly with demonspawn, who would have a class and a mutation. One major problem with this is coming up with names that are short enough. Stuff like "frostbound demonspawn berserker" (just a completely random example) is just too long.

"Ice DsBe"?

[jejorda2]

We could come up with a new name for demonspawn, like hob, scratch, devil, or just demon.

[Davion Fuxa]

Or we could just call them Demonspawn Background - that's about as long as Mottled Draconian Scorcher or shorter in most cases for example. Treat them sort of like Hellbeasts in that they have random mutations.

[Psieye]

I remember that demonspawn Pan suggestion, I'm wondering why it didn't go further. Most pan floors would then be filled with 'mini-pan-lords' of randomised mutations, equipment and stats but at least sticking with a class concept. Those randomised mutations would include Demonic Guardian, which would keep the demons in Pan.

[Bim]

I remember that demonspawn Pan suggestion, I'm wondering why it didn't go further.

Because hardly anything on the Tavern does, especially without someone prototyping first.

Demonspawns would be a good addition to Pan though, they're not used anywhere else and their randomness fits in with the theme of Pan being a place of crazyness. As far as names go, I don't think there is any need to put their backgrounds and I feel that not putting them in would make it a more interesting/different experience (as long as they didn't have too horrible powers). They could have different tiles to give you a broad overview though, and maybe vague names could help give clues (a monstrous demonspawn, a frozen demonspawn, ect.).

[galehar]

I think it'd be better to show the background but not the mutation. This is consistent with all other monsters. We might add the mutation in parenthesis once you've seen it if it's important.