Monster creep

[dpeg]

Very interesting analysis. Many thanks, minmay. At face value, everyone's gut answer to your question should be "NO!".

However, I need more context. Would you mind producing a diff between the lists, so we can see what monsters have been added since 0.5 and which have gone? I have a hunch that monster differentation is better now than it was three years ago, but I cannot say that with any confidence just from looking at the lists -- hopefully the diff might help.

[galehar]

Several branches has been added since 0.5, at least shoals and spiders. They brought a lot of monsters with them. Also dwarves and spriggans. I don't see what's wrong about adding new content as long as it is sufficiently differentiated from existing one, it increases variety.

[dpeg]

galehar: Yes, that's what I think. But I would still love to see a table with new and removed monsters. We do additions and removals on a one-by-one basis, and assessing the picture after a longer duration can be enlightening. For example, do our old additions live up to expectations? Are the newer ones better? Are there any removed monsters that we're sorry about in retrospect?

[Psieye]

Darn, WinMerge doesn't let me conveniently print out the results of the diff. I've taken minmay's post and turned it into 2 .txt attachments so it's easier to do a diff yourself.

To sum up:
- More uniques
- Spriggan/Deep Dwarf/Gnoll enemies
- New branch mobs. This includes Abyss, Vaults and holy pan in addition to actual new branches.

[njvack]

Unless my code is borked, here are the monsters in 0.5 but not 0.12:

  Code:

MONS_PROGRAM_BUG, 'B', LIGHTRED, "program bug"
MONS_GIANT_ANT, 'a', RED, "giant ant"
MONS_GIANT_BAT, 'b', LIGHTGREY, "giant bat"
MONS_GIANT_SNAIL, 'j', LIGHTGREEN, "giant snail"
MONS_BUMBLEBEE, 'k', RED, "bumblebee"
MONS_GIANT_IGUANA, 'l', BLUE, "giant iguana"
MONS_GILA_MONSTER, 'l', MAGENTA, "gila monster"
MONS_FIREDRAKE, 'l', RED, "firedrake"
MONS_KILLER_BEE_LARVA, 'w', YELLOW, "killer bee larva"
MONS_ANT_LARVA, 'w', LIGHTGREY, "ant larva"
MONS_GIANT_MOSQUITO, 'y', WHITE, "giant mosquito"
MONS_GIANT_BLOWFLY, 'y', LIGHTGREY, "giant blowfly"
MONS_GIANT_BEETLE, 'B', BLUE, "giant beetle"
MONS_SKELETAL_DRAGON, 'D', LIGHTGREY, "skeletal dragon"
MONS_GIANT_BROWN_FROG, 'F', BROWN, "giant brown frog"
MONS_GUARDIAN_NAGA, 'N', LIGHTGREEN, "guardian naga"
MONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE, 'R', YELLOW, "rakshasa"
MONS_SMALL_SNAKE, 'S', GREEN, "small snake"
MONS_SNAKE, 'S', LIGHTGREEN, "snake"
MONS_BROWN_SNAKE, 'S', BROWN, "brown snake"
MONS_BLACK_SNAKE, 'S', BLUE, "black snake"
MONS_YELLOW_SNAKE, 'S', YELLOW, "yellow snake"
MONS_GREY_SNAKE, 'S', LIGHTGREY, "grey snake"
MONS_ROCK_TROLL, 'T', LIGHTGREY, "rock troll"
MONS_SPECTRAL_WARRIOR, 'W', LIGHTGREEN, "spectral warrior"
MONS_ELECTRICAL_EEL, ';', LIGHTBLUE, "electrical eel"
MONS_GOLD_MIMIC, '$', YELLOW, "pile of gold coins"
MONS_WEAPON_MIMIC, ')', BLACK, "mimic"
MONS_ARMOUR_MIMIC, '[', BLACK, "mimic"
MONS_SCROLL_MIMIC, '?', LIGHTGREY, "mimic"
MONS_POTION_MIMIC, '!', BLACK, "mimic"
MONS_IMP, '5', RED, "imp"
MONS_MANES, '5', LIGHTRED, "manes"
MONS_MIDGE, '5', LIGHTGREEN, "midge"
MONS_HAIRY_DEVIL, '4', LIGHTRED, "hairy devil"
MONS_BEAST, '4', BROWN, "beast"
MONS_FIEND, '1', LIGHTRED, "Fiend"
MONS_PIT_FIEND, '1', BROWN, "Pit Fiend"
MONS_BLUE_DEATH, '1', BLUE, "Blue Death"
MONS_WOOD_GOLEM, '8', YELLOW, "wood golem"
MONS_PANDEMONIUM_DEMON, '&', BLACK, "pandemonium lord"
MONS_MICHAEL, '@', LIGHTGREY, "Michael"
MONS_NORBERT, '@', BROWN, "Norbert"
MONS_JOZEF, '@', LIGHTMAGENTA, "Jozef"
MONS_FRANCIS, '@', YELLOW, "Francis"
MONS_WAYNE, '@', YELLOW, "Wayne"
MONS_DUANE, '@', YELLOW, "Duane"
MONS_TEST_SPAWNER, 'X', WHITE, "test spawner"


And in 0.12 but not 0.5:

  Code:

MONS_WORKER_ANT, 'a', RED, "worker ant"
MONS_BAT, 'b', LIGHTGREY, "bat"
MONS_VAMPIRE_BAT, 'b', DARKGREY, "vampire bat"
MONS_FIRE_BAT, 'b', ETC_FIRE, "fire bat"
MONS_RAVEN, 'b', BLUE, "raven"
MONS_PHOENIX, 'b', RED, "phoenix"
MONS_CHAOS_BUTTERFLY, 'b', ETC_RANDOM, "chaos butterfly"
MONS_GREY_DRACONIAN, 'd', LIGHTGREY, "grey draconian"
MONS_TOADSTOOL, 'f', BLACK, "toadstool"
MONS_BALLISTOMYCETE, 'f', MAGENTA, "ballistomycete"
MONS_HYPERACTIVE_BALLISTOMYCETE, 'f', LIGHTRED, "hyperactive ballistomycete"
MONS_GNOLL_SHAMAN, 'g', WHITE, "gnoll shaman"
MONS_GNOLL_SERGEANT, 'g', CYAN, "gnoll sergeant"
MONS_GNOME, 'g', LIGHTBLUE, "gnome"
MONS_HOLY_SWINE, 'h', YELLOW, "holy swine"
MONS_FELID, 'h', DARKGREY, "felid"
MONS_SPRIGGAN, 'i', LIGHTGREY, "spriggan"
MONS_SPRIGGAN_RIDER, 'i', LIGHTBLUE, "spriggan rider"
MONS_SPRIGGAN_DRUID, 'i', GREEN, "spriggan druid"
MONS_SPRIGGAN_BERSERKER, 'i', LIGHTRED, "spriggan berserker"
MONS_SPRIGGAN_AIR_MAGE, 'i', LIGHTCYAN, "spriggan air mage"
MONS_SPRIGGAN_DEFENDER, 'i', YELLOW, "spriggan defender"
MONS_AGATE_SNAIL, 'j', LIGHTGREEN, "agate snail"
MONS_FIREFLY, 'k', LIGHTBLUE, "giant firefly"
MONS_IGUANA, 'l', BLUE, "iguana"
MONS_BASILISK, 'l', MAGENTA, "basilisk"
MONS_DRAKE, 'l', WHITE, "drake"
MONS_FIRE_DRAKE, 'l', RED, "fire drake"
MONS_MERFOLK_IMPALER, 'm', YELLOW, "merfolk impaler"
MONS_MERFOLK_JAVELINEER, 'm', WHITE, "merfolk javelineer"
MONS_MERFOLK_AQUAMANCER, 'm', GREEN, "merfolk aquamancer"
MONS_BOG_BODY, 'n', GREEN, "bog body"
MONS_GHOST, 'p', LIGHTGREY, "ghost"
MONS_SILENT_SPECTRE, 'p', CYAN, "silent spectre"
MONS_DWARF, 'q', LIGHTGREY, "dwarf"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF, 'q', BROWN, "deep dwarf"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF_SCION, 'q', YELLOW, "deep dwarf scion"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF_ARTIFICER, 'q', BLUE, "deep dwarf artificer"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF_NECROMANCER, 'q', MAGENTA, "deep dwarf necromancer"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF_BERSERKER, 'q', LIGHTRED, "deep dwarf berserker"
MONS_DEEP_DWARF_DEATH_KNIGHT, 'q', GREEN, "deep dwarf death knight"
MONS_UNBORN_DEEP_DWARF, 'q', WHITE, "unborn deep dwarf"
MONS_LABORATORY_RAT, 'r', BLACK, "laboratory rat"
MONS_PORCUPINE, 'r', BLUE, "porcupine"
MONS_EMPEROR_SCORPION, 's', LIGHTGREY, "emperor scorpion"
MONS_SPIDER, 's', CYAN, "spider"
MONS_TARANTELLA, 's', LIGHTMAGENTA, "tarantella"
MONS_JUMPING_SPIDER, 's', LIGHTBLUE, "jumping spider"
MONS_ORB_SPIDER, 's', MAGENTA, "orb spider"
MONS_CROCODILE, 't', BROWN, "crocodile"
MONS_BABY_ALLIGATOR, 't', BLUE, "baby alligator"
MONS_ALLIGATOR, 't', LIGHTBLUE, "alligator"
MONS_SNAPPING_TURTLE, 't', GREEN, "snapping turtle"
MONS_ALLIGATOR_SNAPPING_TURTLE, 't', LIGHTGREEN, "alligator snapping turtle"
MONS_FIRE_CRAB, 't', LIGHTRED, "fire crab"
MONS_APOCALYPSE_CRAB, 't', WHITE, "apocalypse crab"
MONS_SPATIAL_MAELSTROM, 'v', YELLOW, "spatial maelstrom"
MONS_TWISTER, 'v', ETC_AIR, "twister"
MONS_GIANT_LEECH, 'w', RED, "giant leech"
MONS_CRAWLING_CORPSE, 'x', BROWN, "crawling corpse"
MONS_MACABRE_MASS, 'x', BROWN, "macabre mass"
MONS_ANCIENT_ZYME, 'x', GREEN, "ancient zyme"
MONS_VAMPIRE_MOSQUITO, 'y', BROWN, "vampire mosquito"
MONS_MOTH, 'y', WHITE, "moth"
MONS_GHOST_MOTH, 'y', MAGENTA, "ghost moth"
MONS_MOTH_OF_SUPPRESSION, 'y', LIGHTGREEN, "moth of suppression"
MONS_CHERUB, 'A', LIGHTBLUE, "cherub"
MONS_SERAPH, 'A', LIGHTMAGENTA, "seraph"
MONS_PROFANE_SERVITOR, 'A', ETC_BLOOD, "profane servitor"
MONS_GOLIATH_BEETLE, 'B', BLUE, "goliath beetle"
MONS_BONE_DRAGON, 'D', LIGHTGREY, "bone dragon"
MONS_PEARL_DRAGON, 'D', ETC_HOLY, "pearl dragon"
MONS_ELEMENTAL, 'E', LIGHTGREY, "elemental"
MONS_IRON_ELEMENTAL, 'E', ETC_IRON, "iron elemental"
MONS_GOLDEN_EYE, 'G', ETC_GOLD, "golden eye"
MONS_OPHAN, 'G', RED, "ophan"
MONS_TENGU, 'H', LIGHTBLUE, "tengu", // likely to become 'Q'
MONS_SHEDU, 'H', WHITE, "shedu"
MONS_SKY_BEAST, 'I', LIGHTCYAN, "sky beast"
MONS_MERGED_SLIME_CREATURE, 'J', LIGHTGREEN, "merged slime creature"
MONS_OKLOB_SAPLING, 'P', LIGHTCYAN, "oklob sapling"
MONS_BUSH, 'P', BROWN, "bush"
MONS_BURNING_BUSH, 'P', RED, "burning bush"
MONS_BALL_PYTHON, 'S', GREEN, "ball python"
MONS_ADDER, 'S', LIGHTGREEN, "adder"
MONS_WATER_MOCCASIN, 'S', BROWN, "water moccasin"
MONS_BLACK_MAMBA, 'S', BLUE, "black mamba"
MONS_SEA_SNAKE, 'S', LIGHTCYAN, "sea snake"
MONS_ANACONDA, 'S', LIGHTGREY, "anaconda"
MONS_GUARDIAN_SERPENT, 'S', WHITE, "guardian serpent"
MONS_DEEP_TROLL_EARTH_MAGE, 'T', MAGENTA, "deep troll earth mage"
MONS_DEEP_TROLL_SHAMAN, 'T', WHITE, "deep troll shaman"
MONS_EIDOLON, 'W', LIGHTGREY, "eidolon"
MONS_PHANTASMAL_WARRIOR, 'W', LIGHTGREEN, "phantasmal warrior"
MONS_THRASHING_HORROR, 'X', YELLOW, "thrashing horror"
MONS_TENTACLED_STARSPAWN, 'X', LIGHTCYAN, "tentacled starspawn"
MONS_STARSPAWN_TENTACLE, 'w', LIGHTCYAN, "starspawn tentacle"
MONS_STARCURSED_MASS, 'X', BLUE, "starcursed mass"
MONS_CATOBLEPAS, 'Y', MAGENTA, "catoblepas"
MONS_ELEPHANT, 'Y', GREEN, "elephant"
MONS_DIRE_ELEPHANT, 'Y', BLUE, "dire elephant"
MONS_HELLEPHANT, 'Y', LIGHTRED, "hellephant"
MONS_APIS, 'Y', WHITE, "apis"
MONS_ELECTRIC_EEL, ';', LIGHTBLUE, "electric eel"
MONS_KRAKEN, 'X', BLACK, "kraken"
MONS_KRAKEN_TENTACLE, 'w', BLACK, "tentacle"
MONS_OCTOPODE, 'x', LIGHTCYAN, "octopode"
MONS_SLAVE, '@', WHITE, "slave"
MONS_HELLBINDER, '@', ETC_FIRE, "Hellbinder"
MONS_CLOUD_MAGE, '@', ETC_SILVER, "Cloud Mage"
MONS_DEMONSPAWN, '@', DARKGREY, "demonspawn", // likely to become '6'
MONS_DEMIGOD, '@', YELLOW, "demigod"
MONS_HALFLING, '@', LIGHTGREY, "halfling"
MONS_VAULT_SENTINEL, '@', LIGHTBLUE, "vault sentinel"
MONS_VAULT_WARDEN, '@', LIGHTRED, "vault warden"
MONS_IRONBRAND_CONVOKER, '@', YELLOW, "ironbrand convoker"
MONS_IRONHEART_PRESERVER, '@', LIGHTGREEN, "ironheart preserver"
MONS_INEPT_ITEM_MIMIC, 'X', BLACK, "inept item mimic"
MONS_ITEM_MIMIC, 'X', BLACK, "item mimic"
MONS_RAVENOUS_ITEM_MIMIC, 'X', BLACK, "ravenous item mimic"
MONS_ELDRITCH_TENTACLE, 'w', BLACK, "eldritch tentacle"
MONS_CRIMSON_IMP, '5', RED, "crimson imp"
MONS_IRON_IMP, '5', CYAN, "iron imp"
MONS_SIXFIRHY, '4', LIGHTBLUE, "sixfirhy"
MONS_BLIZZARD_DEMON, '2', LIGHTBLUE, "blizzard demon"
MONS_HELL_BEAST, '2', BROWN, "hell beast"
MONS_BRIMSTONE_FIEND, '1', LIGHTRED, "Brimstone Fiend"
MONS_HELL_SENTINEL, '1', BROWN, "Hell Sentinel"
MONS_GOLEM, '8', LIGHTGREY, "golem"
MONS_STATUE, '8', LIGHTGREY, "statue"
MONS_DIAMOND_OBELISK, '8', WHITE, "diamond obelisk"
MONS_LIGHTNING_SPIRE, '{', LIGHTCYAN, "lightning spire"
MONS_PANDEMONIUM_LORD, '&', BLACK, "pandemonium lord"
MONS_HELL_LORD, '&', BLACK, "hell lord"
MONS_LURKING_HORROR, '*', BLUE, "lurking horror"
MONS_SILVER_STAR, '*', ETC_SILVER, "silver star"
MONS_WRETCHED_STAR, '*', MAGENTA, "wretched star"
MONS_MENNAS, 'A', ETC_SILVER, "Mennas"
MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_COCYTUS, 'D', ETC_ICE, "the Serpent of Hell"
MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_DIS, 'D', ETC_IRON, "the Serpent of Hell"
MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_TARTARUS, 'D', ETC_DEATH, "the Serpent of Hell"
MONS_DUVESSA, 'e', BLUE, "Duvessa"
MONS_DOWAN, 'e', RED, "Dowan"
MONS_FANNAR, 'e', LIGHTBLUE, "Fannar"
MONS_GRUM, 'g', LIGHTRED, "Grum"
MONS_CRAZY_YIUF, 'g', BLACK, "Crazy Yiuf"
MONS_ARACHNE, 'H', LIGHTCYAN, "Arachne"
MONS_THE_ENCHANTRESS, 'i', LIGHTMAGENTA, "the Enchantress"
MONS_GASTRONOK, 'j', LIGHTRED, "Gastronok"
MONS_PIKEL, 'K', BLUE, "Pikel"
MONS_MENKAURE, 'M', MAGENTA, "Menkaure"
MONS_KHUFU, 'M', LIGHTRED, "Khufu"
MONS_LAMIA, 'N', MAGENTA, "Lamia"
MONS_WIGLAF, 'q', YELLOW, "Wiglaf"
MONS_JORGRUN, 'q', LIGHTMAGENTA, "Jorgrun"
MONS_MARA, 'R', LIGHTMAGENTA, "Mara"
MONS_AIZUL, 'S', LIGHTMAGENTA, "Aizul"
MONS_PURGY, 'T', GREEN, "Purgy"
MONS_JORY, 'V', LIGHTRED, "Jory"
MONS_IGNACIO, '1', LIGHTMAGENTA, "Ignacio"
MONS_GRINDER, '5', BLUE, "Grinder"
MONS_KIRKE, '@', LIGHTGREEN, "Kirke"
MONS_MAURICE, '@', GREEN, "Maurice"
MONS_NIKOLA, '@', LIGHTCYAN, "Nikola"


Sure, there are some silly things in 0.12 (there are probably more insects and reptiles that more or less work the same as each other) but most of the mechanically-interesting things (spriggans, dwarves, new vault dudes, troll mages) really add to the game.

[battaile]

Removed:

  Code:

MONS_PROGRAM_BUG
    MONS_GIANT_ANT
    MONS_GIANT_BAT
    MONS_GIANT_SNAIL
    MONS_BUMBLEBEE
    MONS_GIANT_IGUANA
    MONS_GILA_MONSTER
    MONS_FIREDRAKE
    MONS_KILLER_BEE_LARVA
    MONS_ANT_LARVA
    MONS_GIANT_MOSQUITO
    MONS_GIANT_BLOWFLY
    MONS_GIANT_BEETLE
    MONS_SKELETAL_DRAGON
    MONS_GIANT_BROWN_FROG
    MONS_GUARDIAN_NAGA
    MONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE
    MONS_SMALL_SNAKE
    MONS_SNAKE
    MONS_BROWN_SNAKE
    MONS_BLACK_SNAKE
    MONS_YELLOW_SNAKE
    MONS_GREY_SNAKE
    MONS_ROCK_TROLL
    MONS_SPECTRAL_WARRIOR
    MONS_ELECTRICAL_EEL
    MONS_GOLD_MIMIC
    MONS_WEAPON_MIMIC
    MONS_ARMOUR_MIMIC
    MONS_SCROLL_MIMIC
    MONS_POTION_MIMIC
    MONS_IMP
    MONS_MANES
    MONS_MIDGE
    MONS_HAIRY_DEVIL
    MONS_BEAST
    MONS_FIEND
    MONS_PIT_FIEND
    MONS_BLUE_DEATH
    MONS_WOOD_GOLEM
    MONS_PANDEMONIUM_DEMON
    MONS_MICHAEL
    MONS_NORBERT
    MONS_JOZEF
    MONS_FRANCIS
    MONS_WAYNE
    MONS_DUANE
    MONS_TEST_SPAWNER

Added:

  Code:

MONS_WORKER_ANT
    MONS_BAT
    MONS_VAMPIRE_BAT
    MONS_FIRE_BAT
    MONS_RAVEN
    MONS_PHOENIX
    MONS_CHAOS_BUTTERFLY
    MONS_GREY_DRACONIAN
    MONS_TOADSTOOL
    MONS_BALLISTOMYCETE
    MONS_HYPERACTIVE_BALLISTOMYCETE
    MONS_GNOLL_SHAMAN
    MONS_GNOLL_SERGEANT
    MONS_GNOME
    MONS_HOLY_SWINE
    MONS_FELID
    MONS_SPRIGGAN
    MONS_SPRIGGAN_RIDER
    MONS_SPRIGGAN_DRUID
    MONS_SPRIGGAN_BERSERKER
    MONS_SPRIGGAN_AIR_MAGE
    MONS_SPRIGGAN_DEFENDER
    MONS_AGATE_SNAIL
    MONS_FIREFLY
    MONS_IGUANA
    MONS_BASILISK
    MONS_DRAKE
    MONS_FIRE_DRAKE
    MONS_MERFOLK_IMPALER
    MONS_MERFOLK_JAVELINEER
    MONS_MERFOLK_AQUAMANCER
    MONS_BOG_BODY
    MONS_GHOST
    MONS_SILENT_SPECTRE
    MONS_DWARF
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF_SCION
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF_ARTIFICER
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF_NECROMANCER
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF_BERSERKER
    MONS_DEEP_DWARF_DEATH_KNIGHT
    MONS_UNBORN_DEEP_DWARF
    MONS_LABORATORY_RAT
    MONS_PORCUPINE
    MONS_EMPEROR_SCORPION
    MONS_SPIDER
    MONS_TARANTELLA
    MONS_JUMPING_SPIDER
    MONS_ORB_SPIDER
    MONS_CROCODILE
    MONS_BABY_ALLIGATOR
    MONS_ALLIGATOR
    MONS_SNAPPING_TURTLE
    MONS_ALLIGATOR_SNAPPING_TURTLE
    MONS_FIRE_CRAB
    MONS_APOCALYPSE_CRAB
    MONS_SPATIAL_MAELSTROM
    MONS_TWISTER
    MONS_GIANT_LEECH
    MONS_CRAWLING_CORPSE
    MONS_MACABRE_MASS
    MONS_ANCIENT_ZYME
    MONS_VAMPIRE_MOSQUITO
    MONS_MOTH
    MONS_GHOST_MOTH
    MONS_MOTH_OF_SUPPRESSION
    MONS_CHERUB
    MONS_SERAPH
    MONS_PROFANE_SERVITOR
    MONS_GOLIATH_BEETLE
    MONS_BONE_DRAGON
    MONS_PEARL_DRAGON
    MONS_ELEMENTAL
    MONS_IRON_ELEMENTAL
    MONS_GOLDEN_EYE
    MONS_OPHAN
    MONS_TENGU
    MONS_SHEDU
    MONS_SKY_BEAST
    MONS_MERGED_SLIME_CREATURE
    MONS_OKLOB_SAPLING
    MONS_BUSH
    MONS_BURNING_BUSH
    MONS_BALL_PYTHON
    MONS_ADDER
    MONS_WATER_MOCCASIN
    MONS_BLACK_MAMBA
    MONS_SEA_SNAKE
    MONS_ANACONDA
    MONS_GUARDIAN_SERPENT
    MONS_DEEP_TROLL_EARTH_MAGE
    MONS_DEEP_TROLL_SHAMAN
    MONS_EIDOLON
    MONS_PHANTASMAL_WARRIOR
    MONS_THRASHING_HORROR
    MONS_TENTACLED_STARSPAWN
    MONS_STARSPAWN_TENTACLE
    MONS_STARCURSED_MASS
    MONS_CATOBLEPAS
    MONS_ELEPHANT
    MONS_DIRE_ELEPHANT
    MONS_HELLEPHANT
    MONS_APIS
    MONS_ELECTRIC_EEL
    MONS_KRAKEN
    MONS_KRAKEN_TENTACLE
    MONS_OCTOPODE
    MONS_SLAVE
    MONS_HELLBINDER
    MONS_CLOUD_MAGE
    MONS_DEMONSPAWN
    MONS_DEMIGOD
    MONS_HALFLING
    MONS_VAULT_SENTINEL
    MONS_VAULT_WARDEN
    MONS_IRONBRAND_CONVOKER
    MONS_IRONHEART_PRESERVER
    MONS_INEPT_ITEM_MIMIC
    MONS_ITEM_MIMIC
    MONS_RAVENOUS_ITEM_MIMIC
    MONS_ELDRITCH_TENTACLE
    MONS_CRIMSON_IMP
    MONS_IRON_IMP
    MONS_SIXFIRHY
    MONS_BLIZZARD_DEMON
    MONS_HELL_BEAST
    MONS_BRIMSTONE_FIEND
    MONS_HELL_SENTINEL
    MONS_GOLEM
    MONS_STATUE
    MONS_DIAMOND_OBELISK
    MONS_LIGHTNING_SPIRE
    MONS_PANDEMONIUM_LORD
    MONS_HELL_LORD
    MONS_LURKING_HORROR
    MONS_SILVER_STAR
    MONS_WRETCHED_STAR
    MONS_MENNAS
    MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_COCYTUS
    MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_DIS
    MONS_SERPENT_OF_HELL_TARTARUS
    MONS_DUVESSA
    MONS_DOWAN
    MONS_FANNAR
    MONS_GRUM
    MONS_CRAZY_YIUF
    MONS_ARACHNE
    MONS_THE_ENCHANTRESS
    MONS_GASTRONOK
    MONS_PIKEL
    MONS_MENKAURE
    MONS_KHUFU
    MONS_LAMIA
    MONS_WIGLAF
    MONS_JORGRUN
    MONS_MARA
    MONS_AIZUL
    MONS_PURGY
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    MONS_NIKOLA


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[galehar]

Note that some monsters have been renamed, others have been changed, so those diffs can be a bit misleading.

[battaile]

Note that some monsters have been renamed, others have been changed, so those diffs can be a bit misleading.

My list was based off of the enums being the same (eg MONS_CENTAUR). If it would be helpful to see a list of things where those names matched but something else in the line changed I could run that also.

[galehar]

Note that some monsters have been renamed, others have been changed, so those diffs can be a bit misleading.

My list was based off of the constant names being the same (eg MONS_CENTAUR). If it would be helpful to see a list of things where those names matched but something else in the line changed I could run that also.

I'm not sure what makes you think those enums are constant. See 3ec65dc0 and a1422f39 for example.

[battaile]

Note that some monsters have been renamed, others have been changed, so those diffs can be a bit misleading.

My list was based off of the constant names being the same (eg MONS_CENTAUR). If it would be helpful to see a list of things where those names matched but something else in the line changed I could run that also.

I'm not sure what makes you think those enums are constant. See 3ec65dc0 and a1422f39 for example.

Sorry for misuse of the term, coming from a different programming language with different capitalization conventions and terminology. Edited for clarity.

[njvack]

Note that some monsters have been renamed, others have been changed, so those diffs can be a bit misleading.

Absolutely. (Is a "Bat" exactly the same as a "Giant Bat" was? I dunno.) It's a quick and dirty look at an issue that is one part of Crawl's overall complexity.

Really, I think the issue is somewhat moot as long as it's pretty clear what a monster does from its name, its behavior, or (worst-case) e'x'amining it. What's a catoblepas? OH MAN CALCIFYING DUST THAT'S WHAT. What's a Deep Troll Shaman? Ah, it's cast 'might' on its buddy. Earth Mage? Hm, I can guess it'll probably have LRD, because it's a super useful spell. Oh? Dig, too? Crap.

Also, some of the early monsters (eg: ball python) exist to demonstrate game mechanics early-on. Gnoll Shamans introduce support mages. Porcupines are somewhat odd in this regard -- they introduce spines which don't come back (unless I'm mistaken) until you run into Hell Sentinels. Something else probably wants them (snails? turtles? wyverns? bone dragons?).

[Psieye]

The point is noted and it is a remarkable one. The solution is not so clear, and a debate could start to look deeply political (Liberalism vs Conservatism). Personally, I feel it's ok for new players joining recently to have more to 'catch up on to get to the front lines' than new players joining a long time ago. It's a price to pay to keep devs motivated with this open source project - letting them exercise creativity in a controlled fashion. The extreme alternative of clamping down on all new features would be, extremely unsatisfactory and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that. Having said that, there may be room for a small change in dev policy in light of this point.

[ohmi]

I do not see a problem, in fact, I think monster variety and modification between versions should be encouraged. I suppose that puts me on the Liberal side of the fence. Even similar monsters can teach one something; learning the difference between and gecko and an iguana is part of the fun. Seeing monsters for the first few times is truly engaging. I think every version should have new uniques and retire some old ones. Simply having a large number of choices isn't the same as having to see them all; nor is there a direct correlation between a long monster list and game length or feature creep (i.e., new mechanics).

[njvack]

@minmay: Yes, that was clear. My feeling (and yes, this could get to be a religious debate) is that feature creep isn't bad if the features are understandable and make for more interesting tactical situations.

A point that's been suggested in other threads is that you're supposed to learn how to deal with new monsters by dying to them. This is a point I disagree with most vehemently. Since Crawl is long, dying because you didn't know Nikola could one-shot you with Chain Lightning on D:23 after eight hours is... unsatisfying. Especially if you've killed him without much fuss before. Once you know his tricks, you can handle him or flee.

So: in that regard, I think the proliferation of uniques is maybe the trickiest creep. They're all dangerous in their own ways, and you need to know those tricks in order to not get killed.

As the game gets bigger, it may need to get mechanically clearer. For example, as the game Kingdom of Loathing grew, it needed to clarify its crafting (among other things) -- ultimately adding entire new systems to make it manageable. Creep is OK, as long as it doesn't cause cognitive overload.

[dpeg]

minmay: Rest assured that the term "monster creep" was understood exactly as you meant it. (I would guess that "feature creep" is as standard a term as "power spiral".) However, I simply doubt that there's as much creep as you claim. That's why I asked for more information. New branches leading to many new monsters is not problematic at all, for example. A breakdown of removed/renamed/modified/added monsters (genera) is not pointless -- as I said, it will be interesting to see how monsters added some time ago are considered now.

[danharaj]

I think standard game and extended game monsters should be considered separately. It is an important question what the complexity goal is for the standard 3-rune game. Is it the level of 0.5, or is it something closer to trunk, or is it something even more complex? The extended game areas are optional and I don't think they should be held to as tight a standard.

[galehar]

In the context of an open source game, feature creep is subjective. We have no requirements nor schedule. And between nethack and slash'em, there's a lot of room.
So just saying that because there are more monsters there is feature creep is just your opinion, and without any other argument, not a very interesting one. I think a lot of new monsters are much more interesting and a lot of boring monsters have been cut from the game. And some of the new monsters are only in optional parts of the game (holies and dwarves).

[galehar]

I did not at any point in this thread state that the increase in the total number of monsters was bad.*

So you mean that feature creep isn't bad? Oh no, you mean that you haven't stated, you just implied it. And you think it but deny stating it for some reason. Don't answer that, I don't actually care

In fact I initially considered comparing it to the increase in the number of different items - not as trivial to count, but I suspect it is single-digit and possibly even negative. Is "variety" in monsters better than "variety" in items?

Well, I think the design space for items is smaller. They have fewer properties, it's hard to come up with interesting new items. The only significant one I can think of is pearl dragon armour. On the other hand, there have been much more changes in spells and gods.
And monsters is the meat of the game, the main interaction, you fight them constantly. Adding monsters is adding content. We have consistently cut levels from the game while adding and diversifying monsters. I think the playing experience is now more dense than it used to be. You could say that the game is still too big and that we should have cut more levels and not add any monsters. There are certainly players who think so, one even forked crawl light in that spirit.
Crawl is a big game, and I like it that way. It still need a few more cuts (crypt and blade) but I think we're getting close.

And to answer more directly, there hasn't been a global brainstorming about monster additions, but I think most new monsters were added where content was needed. People have complained for a long time about the lack of differentiation between Vaults and the main dungeon, and now we have new vault guards. Abyss got 2 level generators, but what it was really needing is new monsters. Lair was lacking in monsters with special and ranged attacks when catoblepas was added.

[dpeg]

minmay: Regarding variety in items vs variety in monsters, there is indeed a crucial difference.

Monsters provide the landscape of a roguelike (in the sense of gameplay), so you want as many different monsters as possible. This, plus their potential interaction is the best approach to randomly generated tactical challenges; which is what, at least in my opinion, the core gameplay of roguelikes should be made of. Handmade challenges (i.e. vaults) are an interesting addition, but should always take the backseat.

Items, on the other hand, are the tools to interact with the monsters. You don't want as many as possible of those. You want enough to make for interesting solutions to the tactical problems. Here, generally speaking, less is more: it makes for better balance (you want to make sure that no tools dominate, and this includes combinations of tools) and easier access by players.

I'll close with two instances of that theoretical rant in actual games.

1. If you add an item, you have to carefully assess how it affects the currently existing things (note that for the purpose at hand, spells count as items). In other words, items demand a lot more scrutiny than monsters do. That is why you see so much tweaking/removing in Crawl. On the other hand, a superflous monster means a little more cognitive burden for the player but it cannot really worsen the game -- an item definitely can.

2. Looking at Brogue (a masterpiece in roguelike design, if you ask me), there is an extremely slim set of item, as well as an extremely narrow range of monsters. Still, the most recent version features monster mutations (a monster may spawn with a typical trait of other monsters, like "infested", "juggernaut", "explosive" etc.). This is a neat and elegant way to enlarge the monster set (and the threat landscape and thus the tactical situations). You get a whole lot of interesting specimen (and Brogue doesn't even have to introduce new names or stats, of such greatness it is), and I reckon you cannot design as freely with items.

[zardo]

I'm a pretty new player compared to most of the people in this thread (first played .10, first won .11) and I'm very happy with the additions in .12. If anything there were previously not enough monsters to sufficiently differentiate the various areas. The 30 percent figure is kind of misleading because you learn about multiple monsters in the course of one game, in the same amount of time you would otherwise spend fighting the same things repeatedly. That's not to say adding content will always be good - adding more branches would be certainly be iffy unless you removed elf or crypt or something - but as of right now it's been handled pretty well and in an 8+ hour game with permadeath the problems of too little variety tend to outweigh those of too much.

[njvack]

People have complained for a long time about the lack of differentiation between Vaults and the main dungeon, and now we have new vault guards. Abyss got 2 level generators, but what it was really needing is new monsters. Lair was lacking in monsters with special and ranged attacks when catoblepas was added.

I didn't really realize this until your and dpeg's messages, but: to me, the monster defines the feel of a branch much, much more than the level generation does. Maybe it's because there's so much variation in normal dungeon level generation (there has to be with 27 levels), but I suspect it's because monsters are what I interact with.

Don't get me wrong: newvaults and newnewvaults and the new abyss generators are great -- but the new monsters are what made Vaults finally feel like a branch as opposed to just more D with a big fight at the end.