Proposals for Ranged Combat

[Davion Fuxa]

I've been thinking about this topic for a while and figured with the recent Ranged Topic it might be a good time to start this one.

Ranged Combat seems to be pretty unintuitive in Crawl: you can basically stand toe-to-toe with any enemy and let lose an arrow in their face as you could from the edge of your line of sight with a bow with equal effectiveness that might be found in switching over to a Melee weapon. Darts and Stones generally do such weak damage that an Skeletal Warrior would probably be better off ignoring them then picking them up and throwing them at you. Crossbows are also working as if they were regular bows which sort of makes no sense. So some potential ideas:

Darts & Stones are generally extremely weak early game weapons that tend to become pretty useless when thrown regardless of who is throwing them. I don't think they should be removed but stronger enemies shouldn't bother picking them up and should leave them alone. Monsters with HD of 8 or more should be a good cut off where they stop equipping Darts or Stones they find.

Launchers tend to have Weapon Delays that tend to be quite short, and this is ignoring the fact they can be shortened still by simply training the Launcher skill and raising effective stats to reach minimum delay - more so in the case of Crossbows since it is a pretty hefty feat to be able to fire even a basic Composite Crossbow at half the speed of a Bow or Longbow. I think that Launchers should have their Delay thresholds increased and made different from Melee Weapons. I wouldn't go so far to make using them in Melee useless though - the Deep Elf Master Archer should still be able to own your characters face off by loosing arrows at point blank range, but it should be significant enough to the player that unless you REALLY train your Ranged Weapon Skill and throw ALL your stat gains into your Ranged Weapons Effective Stats that you wouldn't play like Legolas in melee.

Speaking about Crossbows, if the delay for Crossbows was made really long it might hinder their use since players might end up firing a bolt at something a few tiles away and then as they finish reloading the enemy has come up to melee and taken a few swipes at them. Since Polearms now have Reaching, and Axes have Cleave, an idea for Crossbows is that they might get 'Reloading'. Crossbows are different from Bows and Slings in that you can load them and it will be ready to fire when you need it to be; Bows and Slings however don't stay loaded and always require a setup phase before firing. In terms of Crawl, the purpose of Reloading would be that you could fire your Loaded Crossbow instantly. Bows and Slings though would always see you having to prep them before firing. This could add some interesting play mechanics since you could Reload a Crossbow out of combat, and then when in combat you could switch to the Crossbow to fire at incoming targets or after meleeing an enemy you could switch to a Crossbow to finish off a fleeing target extremely quickly. Blowguns too could also be said to be something that could be reloadable but I don't see them as having much of a problem as Crossbows.

[onton]

Darts & Stones are generally extremely weak early game weapons that tend to become pretty useless when thrown regardless of who is throwing them. I don't think they should be removed but stronger enemies shouldn't bother picking them up and should leave them alone. Monsters with HD of 8 or more should be a good cut off where they stop equipping Darts or Stones they find.

An orc warlord or even knight throwing stones can be a HUGE problem, especially for a squishy caster.

[mumra]

I'm sure the crossbow delay issue has been brought up before. The problem with reloading is active abilities for weapons aren't desired. The reloading could be automatic if you try to fire or even if you just wait for a turn. I like the perk in DoomRL where you can reload whilst moving and maybe something could be done here - e.g. you reload automatically on the move but it takes 2 turns instead of 1.

[Davion Fuxa]

Darts & Stones are generally extremely weak early game weapons that tend to become pretty useless when thrown regardless of who is throwing them. I don't think they should be removed but stronger enemies shouldn't bother picking them up and should leave them alone. Monsters with HD of 8 or more should be a good cut off where they stop equipping Darts or Stones they find.

An orc warlord or even knight throwing stones can be a HUGE problem, especially for a squishy caster.

Is that in Orcish Mines or Deep in Vaults or the Main Dungeon? Almost never have I seen anything remotely threatening in damage coming from Darts or Stones outside of the Early Game, and I would rather take a Orc Warlord throwing Stones at my Squishy Caster with Repel Missiles at range while I cast Poison Arrow or Bolt of Fire with glee at him.

I'm sure the crossbow delay issue has been brought up before. The problem with reloading is active abilities for weapons aren't desired. The reloading could be automatic if you try to fire or even if you just wait for a turn. I like the perk in DoomRL where you can reload whilst moving and maybe something could be done here - e.g. you reload automatically on the move but it takes 2 turns instead of 1.

I could see this happening if the Crossbows Weapon Delay and Minimum Weapon Delay were made exactly the same - not exactly non-realistic to be honest; but there would be problems in knowing when the Crossbow would be reloaded I think otherwise. I would think it would work better though as an Active ability because it would be more intuitive - maybe even make it work like Delayed Fireball for instance.

Edit: Another idea might be to make the Crossbows reload automatically outside of combat as well.

[mumra]

I would think it would work better though as an Active ability because it would be more intuitive

A weapon idea will literally not be accepted if it involves an active ability, this has been stated many times by the developers. Reaching is the only exception to this rule that will ever be allowed!

- maybe even make it work like Delayed Fireball for instance.

Also, making weapons work like spells is another big no-no, so I would stay well away from that one.

[Davion Fuxa]

I would think it would work better though as an Active ability because it would be more intuitive

A weapon idea will literally not be accepted if it involves an active ability, this has been stated many times by the developers. Reaching is the only exception to this rule that will ever be allowed!

- maybe even make it work like Delayed Fireball for instance.

Also, making weapons work like spells is another big no-no, so I would stay well away from that one.

I can see why the developers want to do that, but I can't see it being intuitive to make a Crossbow load automatically on the go without changing Crossbows so the Weapon Delay decreases as you level the Crossbow skill or giving some other non-intuitive warning that you are still in the process of reloading your Crossbow. The reason for making it an Active Ability is moreso because much like with Reaching on Polearms it can't be made to work properly without making the weapon work in the way the Developers don't want (like kiting around until you reload your Crossbow).

As of now, Crossbows are practically just copies of the Bow and Longbow but with a different skill and using a different weapon properties. Being able to actively load your Crossbow gives you the opportunity to decide when you want to load it but not have to fire it, and more about separating the loading delay of the Crossbow from the actual firing of it instead of keeping it all in one algorithm. This is mostly similar to the idea behind Delayed Fireball - though you don't have an ability to fire your 'Delayed Crossbow', that will happen when you pick something to fire at but with less Weapon Delay. The only thing related to the spell with this is that you don't have to be in combat to prepare yourself to be able to do it.

[crate]

maybe it's just me but i think that a base delay of 150% that goes down more slowly with skill than any other attack delay in the game is pretty slow

[Davion Fuxa]

maybe it's just me but i think that a base delay of 150% that goes down more slowly with skill than any other attack delay in the game is pretty slow

It isn't slow enough though that you wouldn't put it away to used a Melee Ranged Attack to deal with a foe hitting you in the face.

[mumra]

The reason for making it an Active Ability is moreso because much like with Reaching on Polearms it can't be made to work properly without making the weapon work in the way the Developers don't want (like kiting around until you reload your Crossbow).

No amount of justification will escape the fact that "no more active abilities for weapons" has been very explicitly stated. You would have to figure out something that takes this into account.

As of now, Crossbows are practically just copies of the Bow and Longbow but with a different skill and using a different weapon properties. Being able to actively load your Crossbow gives you the opportunity to decide when you want to load it but not have to fire it, and more about separating the loading delay of the Crossbow from the actual firing of it instead of keeping it all in one algorithm. This is mostly similar to the idea behind Delayed Fireball - though you don't have an ability to fire your 'Delayed Crossbow', that will happen when you pick something to fire at but with less Weapon Delay. The only thing related to the spell with this is that you don't have to be in combat to prepare yourself to be able to do it.

The main thing related to the spell is that you compared it to the spell. I am just saying that this is verging on another definite "won't do" so just try and avoid such comparisons (...instead you made the comparison again ... twice!)

It isn't slow enough though that you wouldn't put it away to used a Melee Ranged Attack to deal with a foe hitting you in the face.

Do you mean "would", not "wouldn't"? And what's actually bad about this?

[BlackSheep]

I used to think it was bad that crawl doesn't penalize missile attacks at melee range. If I were to set out to "fix" that issue, it wouldn't be by adjusting launcher speed.

[crate]

I also think it's a good thing that ranged combat works fine at melee range anyway.

Also melee attacks at high skill with a good weapon do more damage per aut than ranged attacks do anyway, so you'd switch for that reason (or not switch, if you have bad weapon skill...).

[dpeg]

From time to time someone mentions that using ranged weapons at melee distance is counterintuitive or unrealistic. But we're not making a simulation, it's a game. And you know the drill:

gameplay > interface > realism

Also thanks to everyone for chanting the other two words of wisdom: no active abilities for weapons; no spell effects for weapons. (You can ponder/ask for why these are in effect; if you really know what you are doing, you might find something where you can bypass these rules. Generally, just don't try.)

[battaile]

e: never mind, I don't know what words mean

[nicolae]

I'll bite...why no more active abilities for weapons?

They're a pain in the ass interface-wise, for one, since you can't activate them by just walking into a dude.

[battaile]

I'll bite...why no more active abilities for weapons?

They're a pain in the ass interface-wise, for one, since you can't activate them by just walking into a dude.

Ah, ok, I guess I was confusing 'active' with 'special' (eg Cleave). Never mind then, yeah, 'active' are a hassle.

[Davion Fuxa]

I also think it's a good thing that ranged combat works fine at melee range anyway.

Also melee attacks at high skill with a good weapon do more damage per aut than ranged attacks do anyway, so you'd switch for that reason (or not switch, if you have bad weapon skill...).

I'm not necessarily against ranged combat not working in melee range - even with a long delay you could still kill popcorn or plink away at enemies that can't hurt your character too well. The problem is that currently regardless of the threat level your in, you can almost always get away with almost zero decision making if your Ranged Weapon Skill and Weapon are strong enough to let you do so.

At least with Melee you have to think about positioning and tactics, with Spells you have to think about conserving mana or watching your hunger, and God Abilities require you to manage your piety. With Ranged Weapons though, there is little that comes in the way of potentially killing your character and the gameplay is near-almost broken; and as mentioned time and again, boring. The exception to this is partly Slings which require at least some semblance of managing Ammunition, but Bows and Crossbows have you showered in Ammunition for their Launchers.

[mumra]

Note: see https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:rc#differentiation_of_launchers - in particular look at Crossbows and specifically b0rsuk's and dpeg's replies. Actually if reloading were on the f key that's not as annoying as evoking a reaching weapon but still, those comments were a while before the more recent weapon reforms when active abilities were decided firmly against.

[njvack]

From time to time someone mentions that using ranged weapons at melee distance is counterintuitive or unrealistic. But we're not making a simulation, it's a game.

Yes. When thinking about this, remember that in Crawl, a butterfly, human, and dragon take up one "space." (Incidentally, this means that bardiches are something like ten meters long, since you can reach over a dragon to hit a butterfly.)

Don't overthink it.

[Stormfox]

From time to time someone mentions that using ranged weapons at melee distance is counterintuitive or unrealistic. But we're not making a simulation, it's a game.

Yes. When thinking about this, remember that in Crawl, a butterfly, human, and dragon take up one "space." (Incidentally, this means that bardiches are something like ten meters long, since you can reach over a dragon to hit a butterfly.)

Don't overthink it.

Doubly so when you consider that a rat is able to catch any and all missiles intended for the dragon or giant standing behind it.

[adozu]

well just coming out of a succesful 15 rune with a character that mastered both swords and bows i have to say that while i had bow equipped the most to quickly respond to tormentors and the likes appearing in my LOS the sword gave me much better results once the enemy was in close quarters. and i was using a double sword so a 1handed weapon, 2 handed weapons can get even more of a gap.

i don't think ranged combat needs a penalty when fighting enemies close to you since proper melee weapons already have the edge if you are willing to invest in both skills.

[XuaXua]

Distance is not exact. 0 squares of distance does not mean touching.

[mumra]

Doubly so when you consider that a rat is able to catch any and all missiles intended for the dragon or giant standing behind it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOv5ZjAOpC8