proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 17:58

proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Wandering around in the labyrinth isn't tactically or strategically interesting, it's just tedious, and it runs directly counter to the game's philosphy of weeding out such mindless tedium. I'm pretty sure similar sentiments about the labyrinth have been expressed before and I don't have to expound on this point any further.

So what sort of solution is there? The most obvious one is to remove the labyrinth, but that removes a portal with some unique and interesting properties. These properties are (1) the announcement of its presence, (2) the food cost, and (3) the minotaur fight. So how could we remove the tedious wandering component of the labyrinth without losing these properties? My proposal is:

The Hungry Portal
The Hungry Portal announces its presense on the floor just like the labyrinth. The flavour text could be "You hear a booming voice demanding food!" growing more urgent over time ending with something like "You here a distant voice desperately pleading for food!". The flavour text could alternatively be more abstract, like "You feel a supernatural hunger on this floor!"

Entering the hungry portal causes it to consume food in your inventory until it meets its nourishment requirement (which is random). If all the food in your inventory does not satisfy its nourishment requirement, it will drain nutrition from your body to make up the difference (which will kill you if your body does not have enough nutrition).

If you manage to satisfy the hungry portal, you wind up right outside the door of a minotaur vault in a walled area, the only exit being the loot-covered escape hatch that the minotaur guards.

Thoughts? Would this be better or worse than the labyrinth?

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 18:07

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I imagined "hungry portal" a bit like a hungry ghost, wandering around the level eating stuff and you have to go into the portal to get that stuff back.

I've never found a labyrinth tedious, they're pretty quick and easy to solve when you understand them. I don't think a portal which simply costs nutrition is a particularly interesting alternative. Being randomly killed for no good reason isn't much fun either.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 18:20

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

This thread would be a good candidate for CYC.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:03

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Davion Fuxa wrote:This thread would be a good candidate for CYC.

It's that bad?

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:04

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

A two-minute puzzle that you can encounter at most once per game is not comparable to pudding farming or gold cloning. I feel a mixture of contempt and pity for individuals who are so incapable of visualization that they spend long enough in a labyrinth to get tired of it.

Also, I don't like the idea even on its own merits. Food is not a meaningful sacrifice to get into a trove-lite portal.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:05

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

KoboldLord wrote:I feel a mixture of contempt and pity for individuals who are so incapable of visualization that they spend long enough in a labyrinth to get tired of it.

I'm sorry but labs actually take nonzero time to finish so I do indeed get tired of them.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:20

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

crate wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:I feel a mixture of contempt and pity for individuals who are so incapable of visualization that they spend long enough in a labyrinth to get tired of it.

I'm sorry but labs actually take nonzero time to finish so I do indeed get tired of them.

me too

KoboldLord wrote:Also, I don't like the idea even on its own merits. Food is not a meaningful sacrifice to get into a trove-lite portal.

I am not proposing adding that to the game, it's already how the labyrinth works!

mumra wrote:I've never found a labyrinth tedious, they're pretty quick and easy to solve when you understand them.

It's a maze. I guess if you like mazes you might like the labyrinth, but I think crawl players would rather be playing crawl.

mumra wrote:I don't think a portal which simply costs nutrition is a particularly interesting alternative. Being randomly killed for no good reason isn't much fun either.

My alternative mechanically mimics the behavior of the labyrinth, killing you only when entering the labyrinth would kill you.
Last edited by some12fat2move on Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:23

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

While most labyrinths go by easily, they get really annoying when the minotaur room gets placed close to the edge of the map. The game still assures you that there is a path to the minotaur room but it gets vexing when that path requires you to traverse a huge swath of rock wall area, during which time the correct path may have changed due to labyrinth alterations. Extra stress when your path through the metal section just gets blocked off because permarock boundary.

Though I have pondered on a similar idea as OP (but instead of food sacrifices, just abstract the labyrinth traversal to a random number of turns), I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of labyrinths outright. It's bonus satisfaction for an EE who can laugh through the rock section of the maze. I just want some check that the permawall map edge won't cut into the stone & metal sector.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:30

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Psieye wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of labyrinths outright. It's bonus satisfaction for an EE who can laugh through the rock section of the maze.

Except the cause of that "bonus satisfaction" is having a shorter time in a tedious area!

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:31

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I enjoy labyrinths, and would much rather see additional vaults and features added to them.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:38

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I think OP isn't actually being serious with his proposal, but just wants to say that Labyrinths as they are now are bad.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:41

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:42

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

These concerns have been voiced before and no one agreed on anything and nothing happened. Nothing has really changed so it's unlikely that further discussion on this topic will be particularly fruitful.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:42

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

BlackSheep wrote:I enjoy labyrinths, and would much rather see additional vaults and features added to them.

So you mean to tell me if there was an in-game option to skip the maze by sacrificing the amount of food it would take to complete the maze, you would actually prefer (in terms of enjoyment) to walk through it rather than skip? If that is how you feel, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sar wrote:I think OP isn't actually being serious with his proposal, but just wants to say that Labyrinths as they are now are bad.

Well my proposal's flavour doesn't really make sense - why would a hungry portal take you to a minotaur? If the flavour could be reworked to make sense then I would consider it serious. It's the mechanical change that I'm really after.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:43

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Labyrinths are a mini-game inside Crawl, and as such may feel out of place. On the other hand, they are something that make a lot of sense in the roguelike context, they have been inherited from original Crawl (they are the very first "portal vault") and they provide inner-game flavour (as home of the minotaur). Furthermore, complaints have been addressed: there is at most one labyrinth per game now and the mazes themselves are more interesting. There is no doubt that a lot more could be done for them -- for example, ensuring that the exit is in the interior of the level (never at the boundary). For mediocre maze solvers there could also be an indication of squares you already stepped on (the Ariadne approach).

I cannot see how Crawl labyrinths can be compared with actual grinding because it is a one-off affair with an actual risk at the end.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:50

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

dpeg wrote: I cannot see how Crawl labyrinths can be compared with actual grinding because it is a one-off affair with an actual risk at the end.


The minotaur fight is sometimes risky. Manually walking through the labyrinth, the only part anyone actually objects to, is not.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:52

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

dpeg wrote:I cannot see how Crawl labyrinths can be compared with actual grinding because it is a one-off affair with an actual risk at the end.

Yes, the exciting part is at the end. The whole maze affair preceding it is just tedious. Minmay put it well in Grimm's thread:

minmay wrote:Autoexplore was added because exploration is tedious and involves no interesting decisions. Since exploration is tedious and involves no interesting decisions, according to the game itself (and to every player who uses autoexplore, which is almost every player), having a portal vault based around it is blatantly contradicting major design goals.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 19:54

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

some12fat2move wrote:So you mean to tell me if there was an in-game option to skip the maze by sacrificing the amount of food it would take to complete the maze, you would actually prefer (in terms of enjoyment) to walk through it rather than skip? If that is how you feel, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This magic number of food to complete a labyrinth does not exist. The amount of food it takes to complete the maze is influenced by player skill, tools on hand (I regularly blow holes in Lab walls), and features in the maze. Additionally, the fight at the end is often non-trivial for a lot of characters if the portal spawns early enough. What seems to be the far greater concern for most labyrinth detractors is the real time cost of running one. I'm good at them and just don't mind the break from exploring the dungeon.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:09

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

BlackSheep wrote:This magic number of food to complete a labyrinth does not exist. The amount of food it takes to complete the maze is influenced by player skill, tools on hand (I regularly blow holes in Lab walls), and features in the maze.

Maze skill is nothing but memory...which can be maximized by sketching the maze on paper. Do we really want to encourage this? As for tools on hand, the portal's food cost could just have a divisor based on whether or not you have LRD, Dig, or Passwall and how much spell hunger it's at. The food cost would be randomized to account for features in the maze.

And as Koboldlord pointed out the food cost is pretty meaningless anyway.

BlackSheep wrote:What seems to be the far greater concern for most labyrinth detractors is the real time cost of running one. I'm good at them and just don't mind the break from exploring the dungeon.

Yes, that is the concern. The name of the game is dungeon crawl, you may enjoy the break from it but I don't like it when hardcore tactical crawl turns into casual maze exploration. Perhaps an uncontroversial fix would be to remove the labyrinth loot, that way people who like it can do it but nobody's pressured into the expedition.
Last edited by some12fat2move on Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:16

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Nobody sketches labyrinths, and nobody is talking about making the mazes so complex as to require pen and paper. The food for treasure idea is a horrible one; far worse than simply removing the portal. The real time cost is only too high for some because they view the time spent as boring. To fix that, I and others have repeatedly recommended making labs less boring by adding features.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:25

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

BlackSheep wrote:Nobody sketches labyrinths, and nobody is talking about making the mazes so complex as to require pen and paper. The food for treasure idea is a horrible one; far worse than simply removing the portal. The real time cost is only too high for some because they view the time spent as boring. To fix that, I and others have repeatedly recommended making labs less boring by adding features.

My point was not that people actually sketch labyrinths but that it's encouraged and that player skill is not really a factor in the labyrinth. Food for treasure may be a horrible idea but that's mechanically what the labyrinth is. Adding features may solve the problem but as it stands now, entering the labyrinth puts you in a non-tactical non-strategic non-anything-remotely-challenging environment, which is very inconsistent with crawl's design and therefore disappointing to crawl fans unless they happen to also be fans of maze games.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:31

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

You're not really bringing anything new to the table. We've been through this before, as Grimm pointed out. You're not going to "win" or be "right" be repeatedly hammering on the same points over and over.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:34

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

This has probably been brought up before, too...

For any game situation, you evaluate the potential cost of attempting to defeat/complete it versus the potential payoff for defeating/completing it. Branches, doubly so. Timed portal vaults, triply so.

Most people end up having to expend resources to find the entrance to a timed portal before the timer expires. Then there's the odds of surviving. I wouldn't take a mummy into a volcano at the depths where volcanoes usually show up, unless I've had good luck finding rF. I probably wouldn't take a troll into a labyrinth unless I was going in pretty darn full and had a good supply of permafood on hand. And so on.

But don't just consider the in-game costs. For those who don't like or aren't good at solving labyrinths, part of the cost is the mental shift from straight-up turn-based tactics to solving a maze. Some people cannot recover easily from that, just like recovering from rot is tough without curing potions. For speedrunners, a labyrinth adds wall clock time that may or may not pay off in the end, biased toward "may not". As fast as elynae/CS is, I'm sure he ignores timed portals that don't have a high chance of helping his cause when he's actively trying to speedrun.

If you are not willing or able to pay the price to succeed at the choice that the game is presenting, turn the choice down. "You", the player, too, not just your character.
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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:42

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Wise words by Stormfox.

As always, if there's anything to come out of threads like, make proposals -- as specific as possible. I made two (which I believe I didn't see before):

1. Make sure the exit vault does not touch the boundary.
2. Indicate squares you've stepped on.

These should make solving labyrinths a bit easier. There are certainly also ideas to make them more interesting -- bring them on.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:55

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

BlackSheep wrote:You're not really bringing anything new to the table. We've been through this before, as Grimm pointed out. You're not going to "win" or be "right" be repeatedly hammering on the same points over and over.

Actually, at first my argument was just "because it's boring", now I tried to illustrate why it is boring for a significant portion of the players. Regardless you are correct that there's probably nowhere else we can go with this. I sincerely appreciate the wholesome discussion of this thread, I know I walk away with a better understanding of the issue :)

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 20:57

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

dpeg wrote:Wise words by Stormfox.

As always, if there's anything to come out of threads like, make proposals -- as specific as possible. I made two (which I believe I didn't see before):

1. Make sure the exit vault does not touch the boundary.
2. Indicate squares you've stepped on.

These should make solving labyrinths a bit easier. There are certainly also ideas to make them more interesting -- bring them on.


I like the idea proposed last time this came up, to get rid of the maprot and compensate by shifting the walls around outside LOS more often.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 21:21

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

One-Eyed Jack wrote:These concerns have been voiced before and no one agreed on anything and nothing happened.

This isn't true. In the previous thread, several proposal reached consensus like reducing size, changing the alteration logic to make it happen closer to the player and add monsters. It's true that nothing happened but it's because nobody cares enough to implement those changes, not because of disagreement.

Also, maybe removing maprot but keeping autoexplore disabled could be a good compromise.

some12fat2move wrote:Food for treasure may be a horrible idea but that's mechanically what the labyrinth is.

Crawl isn't an abstract strategy game like chess or go. There are other things to consider than just "mechanisms".
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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 21:50

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

The idea of just replacing labyrinths with a food cost is horrible imo. If you want to replace 'boring' parts of the game with arbitrary stuff like that then why not replace crypt with a button that takes some food and gives you xp/tso piety? Labyrinths could maybe be improved by removing maprot and altering generation a bit, like how Psieye suggested because they can occasionally generate with annoying layouts, but they have interesting flavour, a fun theme, and are very different from the rest of the game in what I think is an entertaining and appropriate way. Also, 'trade x for random loot' already exists in the form of troves so why should labyrinths be turned into 'troves but always food and there's a minotaur there'? The maze is the interesting bit.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 22:02

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

TotallyWizard wrote:The idea of just replacing labyrinths with a food cost is horrible imo. If you want to replace 'boring' parts of the game with arbitrary stuff like that then why not replace crypt with a button that takes some food and gives you xp/tso piety? Labyrinths could maybe be improved by removing maprot and altering generation a bit, like how Psieye suggested because they can occasionally generate with annoying layouts, but they have interesting flavour, a fun theme, and are very different from the rest of the game in what I think is an entertaining and appropriate way. Also, 'trade x for random loot' already exists in the form of troves so why should labyrinths be turned into 'troves but always food and there's a minotaur there'? The maze is the interesting bit.

Yes we've been over this, the labyrinth is mechanically dumb but will be preserved anyway because it has "interesting flavour" and "a fun theme". End of story :mrgreen:

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 22:49

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

nicolae wrote:I like the idea proposed last time this came up, to get rid of the maprot and compensate by shifting the walls around outside LOS more often.

That sounds awful to me. Then you have a map that you can't depend on. I prefer having no map than to having a wrong map.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 22:51

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

some12fat2move wrote:Yes we've been over this, the labyrinth is mechanically dumb but will be preserved anyway because it has "interesting flavour" and "a fun theme". End of story :mrgreen:

(Emphasis mine.) This makes sure you're not a candidate for any serious discussion.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 22:54

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

What about something like a silent spectre-sized wall-penetrating flame cloud that moved around slowly, so you had to figure out how to get to the exit without going through the cloud? With that in the way, it might be interesting to get through with no wall changes or map rot. And put the minotaur near the entrance to hunt you down while you search for the loot at the exit.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 23:29

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Here is my small idea for a more fun labyrinth... Probably silly, but hey I'll try anyway:

Step 1) Place hungry ghosts or any other pest that speeds up your hunger clock. This is mostly to counteract that the second part of the change would make labyrinths quicker to solve.

Step 2) Code an algorithm so that the markings in the walls aren't random anymore, instead they offer clues to solve the labyrinth. Make it so that every symbol means something, for instance "take the 3rd turn from now to the right" or "take the immediate next intersection straight". Maybe the player can obtain that information directly from inspecting the symbol.

This way a player should generally solve the labyrinth faster but be forced to think in the process, instead of randomly walking around and remembering where he has been.

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Post Wednesday, 13th March 2013, 23:42

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Steel Neuron wrote:Step 2) Code an algorithm so that the markings in the walls aren't random anymore, instead they offer clues to solve the labyrinth. Make it so that every symbol means something, for instance "take the 3rd turn from now to the right" or "take the immediate next intersection straight". Maybe the player can obtain that information directly from inspecting the symbol.


and console players can just... suck it, i guess?

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 01:22

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Steel Neuron wrote:...markings in the walls...

Nicolae covered this, but it got me thinking that thematic tiles to make the area more sinister would be nice. Stuff like skeletons and scrawlings that appear to be written in blood. It's supposed to be a death trap, after all.

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 02:14

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I for one enjoy the labyrinth. Its a welcome little break, and as mentioned earlier, it is up to me if I want to jump into it. I will regularly burn a map scroll to find it quickly, but its often a question of how much food I have on the chance that I dont make it thru as quickly as usually. It is also a unique vault style and a good mini-game for new players as it forces them to reevaluate resources and change tactics entirely from typical encounters.

And that is why adding markings of any sort, or even ensuring that the minotaur is always in the center, is a bad idea. It removes risk and makes the maze always trivial instead of probably trivial/maybe fatal(if you are skilled at running mazes, once again, your choice to enter). Not to mention, thematically its just a horrible idea to be able to mark the maze. Thats why the walls move, after all. Its supposed to be confusing.

Every now and then I will realize I went the wrong way around or that the exit is not in the center.. and the walls are shifting... and I cant dig.. and the food is running out. And then it is really interesting to get out in time.

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 02:59

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I would much just rather retain autoexplore than remove maprot or add some mechanism that approximates part of autoexplore like marking walls.

Autoexplore is a really great feature; I still don't see the advantage of disabling it so that people who like mazes aren't tempted to press "o" or whatever the justification is

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 07:10

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Left-hand rule makes finding the mino boring. Wand of teleport makes the end trivial. Lose a bit in exp, but the items on a early char makes it worth it.

Maybe replace some of the wall sections with hunger clouds. Going through the cloud may be a nice short-cut, or it might lead to a dead-end. The minotaur would be able to walk through the clouds, which allows him to get back to you quicker.

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 13:09

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

The left-hand rule only works consistently with tree structured mazes. If you have any ring-road seperating the entry and exits it is guaranteed to fail.
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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 13:17

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Steel Neuron wrote:Here is my small idea for a more fun labyrinth... Probably silly, but hey I'll try anyway:

Step 1) Place hungry ghosts or any other pest that speeds up your hunger clock. This is mostly to counteract that the second part of the change would make labyrinths quicker to solve.

Step 2) Code an algorithm so that the markings in the walls aren't random anymore, instead they offer clues to solve the labyrinth. Make it so that every symbol means something, for instance "take the 3rd turn from now to the right" or "take the immediate next intersection straight". Maybe the player can obtain that information directly from inspecting the symbol.

This way a player should generally solve the labyrinth faster but be forced to think in the process, instead of randomly walking around and remembering where he has been.


A Pac-Man themed labyrinth, with hungry ghost chasers and permafood trails might be fun.
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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 15:15

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Martyr of Zot wrote:A Pac-Man themed labyrinth, with hungry ghost chasers and permafood trails might be fun.


Also a teleporter at the left-hand side of the map that wraps you around to the right-hand side.

Quad damage or berserk potions in the corners for "power pills".

More seriously, it's a terrible idea for labs, but maybe it could work as a Sprint.

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 16:31

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

I just hate how every character is forced into a Labyrinth and can't win without the special winning thingie you get there.

Oh, right. It's optional. And honestly once you've done a few of them, they're pretty trivial too. I don't think I've ever died of starvation in a Lab. I have died to the minotaur at the end though.

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:04

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

until yesterday i thought i'd never starve in a labyrinth, then a really mean one with the center attached to a corner screwed me because i was on a compeltely sealed off side of the metal section and couldn't get to the boss whitout backtracking 3/4 of the map, which killed me through starvation because i also wasn't carrying extra food or a dig wand.

i like labyrinths but maybe there should be a bit of code to make it so the metal section cannot spawn adjacent to the outer wall? it can force huge backtracks.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:29

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

rebthor wrote:Oh, right. It's optional.

once I get around to updating my rcfile I will remove labs from my games entirely
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:43

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

crate wrote:once I get around to updating my rcfile I will remove labs from my games entirely

Wait, what? Is that a joke or something you can really do?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:45

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

njvack wrote:
crate wrote:once I get around to updating my rcfile I will remove labs from my games entirely

Wait, what? Is that a joke or something you can really do?

Mute the messages, replace the lab entry glyph with ".". You can theoretically still enter a lab, but only if you manage to press > on the tile that has the lab entrance without you knowing it's there.

Probably this doesn't entirely work in tiles because as far as I know you cannot redefine tiles.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:46

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

Ah, so it's not like you can actually change dungeon gen rules through your rcfile.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Thursday, 14th March 2013, 19:59

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

dpeg wrote:2. Indicate squares you've stepped on.

This right here would make them go from "mildly annoying" to "pretty cool" for me.
kekekela is my in-game name
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 15th March 2013, 04:13

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

dpeg wrote:
some12fat2move wrote:Yes we've been over this, the labyrinth is mechanically dumb but will be preserved anyway because it has "interesting flavour" and "a fun theme". End of story :mrgreen:

(Emphasis mine.) This makes sure you're not a candidate for any serious discussion.


...Do you have a problem with the word dumb?

I actually skip the Lab because I dislike it so much... (Much like Crate I guess, except minus the modding part.)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 15th March 2013, 07:39

Re: proposal: replace labyrinth with hungry portal

lordhamshire wrote:
dpeg wrote:
some12fat2move wrote:Yes we've been over this, the labyrinth is mechanically dumb but will be preserved anyway because it has "interesting flavour" and "a fun theme". End of story :mrgreen:

(Emphasis mine.) This makes sure you're not a candidate for any serious discussion.

...Do you have a problem with the word dumb?

The point is that improvement of the game can only happen on a basis of clarity and reason. "Dumb" is an emotional appeal that leads nowhere.

For this message the author Grimm has received thanks: 3
BlackSheep, dpeg, some12fat2move
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