TSO quibble

[BlackSheep]

The Shining One dislikes it when you hit distracted enemies unless they're undead, demonic or of less-than-normal intelligence. I think it would make sense to exclude shapeshifters from the restrictions, as well, not because he has any special regard for them, but because it makes little sense for it to be ok to shoot a "yak" one turn and then not ok to shoot the "elf" that it turned into later. There are already special cases in the game for Jiyva and Beogh for shapeshifters, and I think TSO merits one, too.

[njvack]

Makes sense -- shapeshifters themselves aren't intelligent anyhow.

[Baldu]

Just out of curiosity, why is he still pooped by punching confused living humanoids? That doesn't matter much for the extended game but for the normal game it`s just annoying, I don't get it. Having played a full game with him a month or two ago, i don't think the game would have gone any better or worse without that special thing and it certainly didn't make my game more interesting.

[BlackSheep]

It's "unchivalric" of you.

[Baldu]

So it's 100% for flavor? I though it was some sort of challenge condition but had trouble figuring out why since he's not that strong for the part of the game when it matters. For reference I played that dude as a hybrid, got 8 runes (didnt do crypt blade elf tomb hells abyss), and early on i was careful whenever the game told me to stop punching but once I got freeze cloud + haste online i stopped caring and got him red 10 times or so.

[njvack]

Confuse+stabbing is pretty powerful; TSO also functionally disallows invisitabbing. Gotta play fair with humanoids when you're leading the forces of light, y'know?

[Baldu]

Ok consider the derail resolved. On the actual thread subject, I hadn't noticed at all but it makes sense.

[adozu]

lol once when worshipping TSO i had this kobold walk to me with a big ? on his head in a 1tile corridor i wanted to go through. ok, no problem, i'll wait a few turns until he decideds i'm actually here and it will be fair enough to kill.... except it started hitting me while STILL sporting a ? on his head, not sure how he could pull that off.

sacred dude, why was it unchivalric of me to hit this "helpless" kobold? it was stabbing me for crying out loud D:

[BlackSheep]

If it was confused, it wandered around randomly, and if it happened to wander in your direction it would attack you instead. If it was simply unaware of you, you could shout at it to get its attention.

[graffen69]

I was fooling around with a HOFi of Trog/TSO the other night, and those dam Divine Warriors i summon keeps on confusing the mobs to the point i had to back out. I think i was playing trunk (might have been 0.12 though) and since i was a HO i used Axe, which in turn prevented me from hitting any mobs in front of me cuz of cleave. Those Divine Allies can really hurt in non-demon/non-undead fights if you intend to fight alongside em.
Which made me curious, is this intentional or a side effect rule gone awry?

[Psieye]

That's not confusion, that's distraction. The monsters can briefly be paying attention to your angel allies instead of you. Any ally can potentially achieve this I think, though it could be that only allies that pose a significant threat will make monsters shift attention away from you.

[rchandra]

I mostly like TSO's conduct, but why does it apply to 'evil' enemies? 'really attack the helpless deep elf death mage / demonologist?' These are the enemies that TSO insists that you kill for piety instead of just observe and judge.

[graffen69]

Nods, i realize now the issue i was referring to is a side effect of cleave.
Not that i don´t like cleave, i think secondary effects on melee weapons is one of the greatest changes made to the game - period.
Maybe the cleave vs. distraction issue will get addressed in the future as well.
Or maybe Axe-wielding toons of TSO just have to learn to be more careful when to use SDW against non-demonic/non-undead opponents, if at all.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant

[galehar]

It's probably better to avoid using axes when worshiping TSO. I don't think this needs to be addressed, seems fine to me. It's just a side effect of TSO's conduct.

[BlackSheep]

What do you think about my original issue re: shapeshifters?

[galehar]

What do you think about my original issue re: shapeshifters?

I'm not really an expert on god conducts, but it seems to make sense yeah.

[BlackSheep]

Created a patch that excludes shapeshifters from unchivalric attacks.

[brendan]

This suggestion will probably get me banned from GDD: What if attacking a distracted creature as a TSO worshiper simply made it become non-distracted? It's a bit annoying to play a summoner of TSO, even apart from the casting limitation. Your summons are always distracting things and then TSO frowns upon killing them. After all, you're walking around with a big glowing halo. That alone should be hard to miss.

[Jabberwocky]

  Code:

You tap the sleeping ettin on the shoulder.
The ettin wakes up.
The ettin notices you.
The ettin hits with a great mace x2.
Ouch! That really hurt!
You die...

[Davion Fuxa]

This suggestion will probably get me banned from GDD: What if attacking a distracted creature as a TSO worshiper simply made it become non-distracted? It's a bit annoying to play a summoner of TSO, even apart from the casting limitation. Your summons are always distracting things and then TSO frowns upon killing them. After all, you're walking around with a big glowing halo. That alone should be hard to miss.

I don't see why The Shining One has to cater to Summoners and I think the Chivalric Code is very thematic. If it is a big issue though (in part to the fact that you are able to summon angels) then just make it so that enemies never become distracted when they notice you - they only attack you or whatever is in the way between them and you.

[cerebovssquire]

I don't see why The Shining One has to cater to Summoners

This isn't an issue of catering to summoners, it's one of "it makes zero sense thematically" - the halo is pretty bright - and "it's really annoying" and while I can see the rationale for keeping certain builds challenging, I certainly don't agree with the argument that certain builds should be intentionally annoying (I guess with the exception of Xom). This isn't a large buff to TSO summoners, it's just that you would spend a lot less time pressing tt or .. Additionally, the issue affects other characters of TSO, though to a less noticable extent.

[njvack]

One solution similar to brendan's (albeit with more balance implications) would be for awake monsters to always focus on haloed TSO worshippers -- you'd always draw aggro so monsters would never be distracted or unaware. As far as I know, there aren't any ways to directly affect aggro in crawl; this might be a neat one.

On one hand, monsters would attack you more; on the other hand, it'd make it easier to tank for your angels. Mechanically, this also kind of fits with divine shield.

[njvack]

I don't see why The Shining One has to cater to Summoners

Well, one of TSO's divine abilities is a summon, so it'd kind of odd if TSO makes using summons more annoying than necessary.

[BountyHunterSAx]

How OP/UP would a "Divine Challenge" ability be?

I'm thinking akin to D&D where an enemy is now marked by you, and takes penalties toHit when attacking targets other than you (or worse, reprisal damage from your patron deity). Of course, if it includes you in the AoE/Blast attack then it doesn't count as "attacking others".

NOT that this would fix the actual issue being discussed, come to think of it, as you'd just have one more ability that functioned like +2ev for your allies.

-AHMAD