New Vaults monsters

[MIC132]

I somehow can't see any discussion about the new Vaults monsters (vault sentinel, vault warden, ironbrand convoker, ironheart preserver).
Due to my poor skill in crawl I still haven't meet them ingame, but on paper they sound great.
I especially like the wardens ability to seal door, which sounds like it will create many interesting situations.

Anyone already faced them? If so I'd like to hear what they are like in practice.

EDIT:
Just got to vaults with my Orc Priest. The door sealing proved to be as entertaining as I thought, and I found myself cut off from my orcish army more than once, which with the remade recall is quite interesting situation (btw. new recall is great..).
But what surprised me was how noticeable the "mark" ability (of vault sentinel, if I'm not mistaken). You feel that you have suddenly a whole level of Vaults chasing after you..
I later died to Mara in Hall of Blades, but the new monsters proved to be very nice.
Also the change to recall, and to exp-sharing between followers, made playing Orc Priest much more entertaining.

[scorpionwarrior]

I've encountered all of them except the preserver on my most recent HOBe, they bring some unique threats that suit crawl really well. I especially like the sentinels and convokers, you can use their Mark hex and recall to lure monsters to a rare corridor, but most of the time they will just screw you over. It's fun! Kudos to the devs that made it happen.

[rebthor]

I had already cleared most of vaults when the change was made. The ironbrand convoker was really annoying on V:5. I think his recall power needs to be toned down in some way, because having him recall multiple dragons (golden and 2 bone), stone giants, deep trolls and orcs (IIRC) in the middle of combat was a bit much.

Edit: I see that word of recall takes 3 turns. I'm not sure if that's new or not. If it is, then perhaps that's sufficient and if not, then I guess I will reserve judgement until I've encountered them more.

[mrbobbyg]

Sentinel's mark is pretty intense. My stabber kobold was haunted by it in the vaults, and i just ran into it on d:3, I think from triggering an alarm trap.

[mumra]

Sentinel's mark is pretty intense. My stabber kobold was haunted by it in the vaults, and i just ran into it on d:3, I think from triggering an alarm trap.

That was a very recent change to alarm traps. Was it survivable?

[mrbobbyg]

It was. The level was 80% explored, so I retreated upstairs to a cleared level once I saw the gnoll pack coming and waited for the mark to fade.

There's a nice balance with the mark so far as I can tell. If the level is unexplored, then only some of the monsters come at you. If the level is partially explored, then it's easier to retreat into explored space.

I can see it making the early stealth game a LOT harder though.

[crate]

Convokers are the only new vaults monster I've had problems with but once you realise they are terrifying it's ok.

[galehar]

Mark is a bit too much for early levels. Probably, alarm traps will be changed to not spawn before D:5 or so.

[mikee]

Sentinel mark is very strong, but I think it's a step in the right direction for MR resistible effects. It's something that you will notice and care about in Vaults, but it's not like "lol you're dead" like paralysis and banish sometimes feel for players.

[battaile]

I somehow can't see any discussion about the new Vaults monsters (vault sentinel, vault warden, ironbrand convoker, ironheart preserver).

Convokers are pretty cool in that they provoke the same "shit, kill it now" response as moths of wrath.
Preservers don't have as much of a profound impact, more like a buff to whoever they're with.

I've only been sentinel marked once and it was on an almost cleared level so it wasn't that big of a deal.
Wardens are really cool, I really like their mechanic especially with the way Vaults are laid out now.

[mrbobbyg]

Yeah, i most certainly had an omgwtf! moment when I got marked, started to flee, and then all the doors were bound shut. It's a great mechanic, really fits the flavour, and I'm impressed by how elegant it feels.

Well done devs!

[Sandman25]

I hate Ironbrand convokers. I had Mara in Vaults 2 and had no way to kill him. It took 3 Teleport scrolls to secure a downstairs to Vault 3 for secure descending. Every time I had been noticed by convoker (especially in open ground), it called Mara and about 10 other units... I even used scroll of mapping for the level to teleport adjacent to downstairs. But of course the downstairs had another convoker who called Mara again... And then again with another downstairs...

[MIC132]

Ugh, didn't think of that. That's nasty..
Maybe we can prevent them from calling uniques from other floors? Same floor is ok I think an can be interesting, but this is too much.

[Sandman25]

Ugh, didn't think of that. That's nasty..
Maybe we can prevent them from calling uniques from other floors? Same floor is ok I think an can be interesting, but this is too much.

Not sure if I worded it well enough. It happened all at the same floor (Vault 2).

[njvack]

Could you really not kill the convokers before escaping Mara? They're not super beefy, and well worth unloading a wand on.

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

[Sandman25]

Could you really not kill the convokers before escaping Mara? They're not super beefy, and well worth unloading a wand on.

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Yes, I think I should have used Wand of Confusion on them.

[galehar]

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Definitely. Sansman25's story makes me think they work as intended

[battaile]

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Definitely. Sansman25's story makes me think they work as intended

Is there any concern that might be ramping up the difficulty a bit much for newer players? (ie those that have gotten a few runes at some point but not a win)

[galehar]

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Definitely. Sansman25's story makes me think they work as intended

Is there any concern that might be ramping up the difficulty a bit much for newer players? (ie those that have gotten a few runes at some point but not a win)

Certainly not. New players die much earlier than Vaults Those who have gotten a few runes aren't new players anymore. And the new vault monsters are still far less threatening than anything you can find in Zot so it doesn't really affect the first win.

[dpeg]

In any case: it might be neat if some situations in Vaults (convokers + awful unique sets maybe) made players occasionally say "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Definitely. Sansman25's story makes me think they work as intended

Is there any concern that might be ramping up the difficulty a bit much for newer players? (ie those that have gotten a few runes at some point but not a win)

nvjack and galehar already said everything but to emphasise the same from a different point of view: all those cool new monsters go to waste if they don't get kills. There could be too many kills, and that'd be addressed, of course, but in a design-sense it's worse if they underperform.

[Sandman25]

To make it clear I really like the new vault monsters, the more monsters with unique features the better.

[njvack]

There could be too many kills, and that'd be addressed, of course, but in a design-sense it's worse if they underperform.

... and hence minmay's "these haven't threatened me" comment suggests maybe they need a buff. (Yes, minmay is very good and I know that.)

Personally, I found them neat but fairly non-threatening (I never got Marked and the only times I got a door sealed I didn't care). Preservers didn't seem to actually do much. Convokers were by far the most interesting of the bunch -- calling in dragons and ettins and then casting Might on them made me nervous. Having part of a level become an instant Mara-Nikola-Boris party actually sounds terrifying.

My ease in dealing with them may have mainly been that I was overleveled for being in V, though. Of course, making V nastier just means people will do other stuff before V.

[galehar]

I hate Ironbrand convokers.

To make it clear I really like the new vault monsters

Yeah, the first time it wasn't really clear that you liked them

[battaile]

Certainly not. New players die much earlier than Vaults Those who have gotten a few runes aren't new players anymore.

I said "newer", not "new". As in relatively less experienced than the people advocating the change.

And the new vault monsters are still far less threatening than anything you can find in Zot so it doesn't really affect the first win.

If its increasing the difficulty to the point that you'd do Slime or Tombs first, it seems like its going to affect getting the first win.

[battaile]

all those cool new monsters go to waste if they don't get kills.

I agree. I also think there is a difference between getting some kills and what I was commenting on, namely..

... "screw silver, I'm going slimy (or abyssal) for my third rune."

Definitely. Sansman25's story makes me think they work as intended

[galehar]

If its increasing the difficulty to the point that you'd do Slime or Tombs first, it seems like its going to affect getting the first win.

It hasn't. You missed something important.

it might be neat if some situations in Vaults

Currently, it doesn't have significantly increased Vaults difficulty. Maybe some rare combinations could drive you away and that's what we're saying is fine.

[battaile]

It hasn't. You missed something important.

I didn't miss that. Let me revise my statement to reflect my understanding:
"If its increasing the difficulty to the point that you'd sometimes do Slime or Tombs first, it seems like its going to affect getting the first win"

[dpeg]

battaile: Crawl's difficulty fluctuates all the time. It is not useful to complain about surplus difficulty in advance. We've been doing this for a while, and you can trust us that we try to make new Vaults meaningful -- this goes both ways. (If the branch became so hard overall strategy turns towards doing Slime instead, say, then we would have reduce Vault's meaning. But don't worry, that won't happen.)

From what I've seen (for me, and for other unspoiled winners), it is reasonable to expect a death in each new branch end. I certainly died during my first Vault visit, and I am sure future Crawlers will like to die there as well.

[battaile]

battaile: Crawl's difficulty fluctuates all the time. It is not useful to complain about surplus difficulty in advance.

I'm not complaining, as I indicated earlier in the thread the new monsters haven't caused me any problems and the Warden in particular is pretty cool. I asked a question in response to the statement that diverting people to Slime/Tombs from Vaults was desired behavior.

[njvack]

IMO, for some characters, Slime is really not much worse than Vaults now anyhow -- even if you don't want Jiyva. It's not like Mennas is gonna surprise you there, at least.

[Sandman25]

I haven't seen a single Convoker in Vault 5 so it was boring (some stairdancing and then tabbed my way with autoexplore). Maybe we need some Convokers near upstairs. Or would it make the level too hard?

[Psieye]

The new vaults monsters have potential to really ruin your day but usually they don't spawn together and a solo convoker is easy enough to kill in time (unless you're doing some stupid challenge build). Buffing them can be as simple as arranging them to be guaranteed squad mates - a preserver is boring on its own but when it's tanking for a convoker? With extra meat getting in the way so it's not easy to start doing damage to the convoker? Then a warden shuts off your retreat-path? That's when things get messy... provided the convoker brings in something scary instead of more popcorn.

Hmm say, do shadow-creature-summoned preservers/convokers/wardens do their gimmicks?

[Lasty]

For what it's worth, I doubt anyone who chooses to go for an "easier" rune than Vaults will go for Tomb. Abyss is definitely easier, and the Demonic rune is probably easier too.

[njvack]

Hmm say, do shadow-creature-summoned preservers/convokers/wardens do their gimmicks?

I'd imagine so; shadow creature'd boggarts do theirs.

Actually: since convokers summon high-HD creatures (IIRC) they won't generally bring boggarts -- something of a pity

[njvack]

The new vaults monsters have potential to really ruin your day but usually they don't spawn together and a solo convoker is easy enough to kill in time (unless you're doing some stupid challenge build). Buffing them can be as simple as arranging them to be guaranteed squad mates - a preserver is boring on its own but when it's tanking for a convoker? With extra meat getting in the way so it's not easy to start doing damage to the convoker? Then a warden shuts off your retreat-path? That's when things get messy... provided the convoker brings in something scary instead of more popcorn.

I thought I remember the commits talking about guaranteeing these guys would spawn with friends, but I agree -- I didn't see as much of that as I expected. More would have made them more interesting.

One other thing that might be good is if convokers prioritized calling other vault guardians (maybe even getting a small speed advantage in recalling them) until all types were represented -- so you'd be more likely to wind up with doors shut in your face and monsters absorbing damage and more recalls all at once.

[Psieye]

There was a commit for ensuring wardens always had some dudes around with them, but I don't think there was a specification that those dudes would be a collection of newVault guys.

[njvack]

Huh. The only dudes who really work as lone wolves are sentinels.

Lone Preservers are particularly forlorn: "OK dudes, I have your backs! Dudes? DUDES?"

[battaile]

There was a commit for ensuring wardens always had some dudes around with them, but I don't think there was a specification that those dudes would be a collection of newVault guys.

There was one for preservers, but I don't see one for wardens. (entirely likely that I'm missing something of course)
And you are correct in that the band isn't a collection of the new guys.

  Code:

c903ba8 | DracoOmega | 2013-03-03 17:06:58 -0330

Give ironbrand preservers a random band
Given that preservers are really only interesting when they are
around other creatures to protect, make sure they show up alongside
some of these creatures.

Bands are currently selected among most of the various humanoid bands
that can naturally spawn in Vaults (currently ogre mage, deep troll,
orc knight, or deep elf high priest, with equal weight), and are of
generally the same size. Quite possibly this list needs further
adjusting in various ways, but this is likely better than preservers
simply spawning on their lonesome and doing nothing of consequence.

[graffen69]

Play tested trunk (as well as 0.12 when that was trunk) a lot, and although i feel Vault certainly has it´s own branch-feel now, i´m still concerned with the balance of certain mobs, in particular Ironbrand Convokers and Vault Sentinels. These 2 alone are the reason i nowadays wait with Vault until i cleared to D26 before entering. I would suggest turning them down further, perhaps giving Sentinels Mark a lesser chance to stick and a cool down of three rounds.
Convokers are definitely the hardest and i´ve seen them bring in other Convokers as well (something i, for one reason or another, thought was disabled) which makes em even more dangerous. Maybe convokers and Sentinels should be left out of V5 or nerfed a tad. Or fewer # of convokers?

I play pure Melees most of the time so partly this is my own fault. But it also brings up another issue: as a Pure melee without any spells, doing D20-D27 + Vaults & Enchanted Forest feels downright Sado machocistic (even by DCSS-standards) at times.
I still play older versions of the game a lot as well (particularly 0.9-0.11 and Crawl Light) but there's so many fun changes in trunk i´m kinda hoping i´m not alone in feeling the game has almost become TOO hard in those areas, to the point of forcing players to use Spells just to survive.
Any thoughts?
Maybe i´m alone in this?

[Wahaha]

I also try to clear D to 27 and both Lair branches before entering Vaults. Sometimes it's not possible because of uniques or other bad stuff but I still delay Vaults as much as possible.

[Matanui3]

Once, as a necromancer, I had one of the wardens slam the door when an ally was on it.
This ended up shunting the ally off onto my side of the door, and separating my entire force from the entire enemy force.
It felt kind of silly, since neither of us could fight the other.

[nagdon]

All the four new monsters are good additions, they manage to make the Vaults unique.

Preservers are probably the least interesting of them, but they can be useful protecting other monsters, especially one of the other three or a dangerous spellcaster. Giving preservers bands is a good idea, but maybe letting them follow someone strong and preferably spellcaster would be more interesting (is something similar already coded for lost souls?).

Sentiels can cause dangerous situations, especially when I wake up everything with Lightning Bolt, once I had to burn two ?tele to escape when a lich and other things arrived after being Marked.

I usually handled convokers with Poisonous Cloud on them + Conjure Ball Lightning to welcome the mobs + Swiftness + run away, but probably focusing them with Lightning Bolt would be better.

Wardens can quickly cause dangerous situations, fortunately in my current game I was always able to clear the mobs when a warden attacked, but in a previous game a warden badly surprised my DjFE by locking the stairs on Vault:5. I didn't know what sealed the stairs and that a few well-aimed Fire Bolts would let me escape, so I teleported at least twice and ran around (/hasting) on the map ocassionally turning back to ignite someone. I was able to escape (later died stupidy on Coc7), but a warden at the Vaults:5 entrance can be very dangerous, probably even more dangerous than a convoker or a sentiel, because it disallows stairdancing. This can cause problems, especially for characters who can't easily focus fire on the warden sitting behing the dozen vault guards.

If I would be extremely evil, I would also add a spellcaster using dimensional anchor to close off even more escape routes.

[Bloax]

If I would be extremely evil, I would also add a spellcaster using dimensional anchor to close off even more escape routes.

That's not evil, that's outright homicide.
If there are no stairs and no translocations to get away/break from the initial mob - and you can't take them all at once in one go - then you're just dead.

Unless you have swiftness+haste available, in which case you'd still have the pleasure of cutting through a brigade of finely equipped guards, along with what other surprises you find.


But yes, convokers and sentinels are very good units. A cruel thing would definitely be having them biased towards spawning with some of the other vaults crew members.

[graffen69]

Guess i was alone in this