Monster spellbooks


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 00:01

Monster spellbooks

One problem wizards seem to have is not having enough spellbooks. They're rare drops, and I typicality end up with around 10 spell levels sitting around gathering dust. To this end, I propose monsters that can cast spells drop their spellbooks. Said spell books would contain all the spells the monster can cast. (Possibly minus monster only spells, although I think that allowing the player to get his hands on them this way would be acceptable.)
This would clear up the problem of spell book rarity.
Any comments?
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 00:51

Re: Monster spellbooks

One problem wizards seem to have is not having enough spellbooks.


This is one problem I can honestly say I have never, ever had. Admittedly there aren't many spell books before Lair(which is why casters start out with a spellbook with enough power to at least get them there), but there aren't many Artifacts either- spellbooks are rare because they are extremely good. If you want books/spells that aren't RNG reliant, I suggest you worhship Kiku, Sif Muna, or Vehu- they guarantee a veritable cornucopia of spells to choose from.

To this end, I propose monsters that can cast spells drop their spellbooks.

Your proposal would mean that basically every character would begin with a spellbook containing Magic Dart, Throw Flame/Frost, Haste, Confuse, Invisibility, and possibly Slow. Not very good for diversity, as characters who utilize this guaranteed "Book of Orcish Wizardry" would have a distinct advantage over those who can not or do not.

They're rare drops, and I typicality end up with around 10 spell levels sitting around gathering dust.

This is because there are only so many spells from a book that you need. Spells are like equipment- you aren't supposed to have a complete suit of endgame-capable items until you are at or near the endgame, and the same is true for spells. Making books excessively common would be no different than upping the spawn rate on jewelry, branded weapons, runed armor, and so on. It's probably even more unbalanced for spells, because while a Dagger of Venom or a weak Protection Ring won't be used forever, a Level 1 spell like Animate Skeleton can remain viable as long as there are corpses.
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:10

Re: Monster spellbooks

wizzzargh wrote:
One problem wizards seem to have is not having enough spellbooks.


This is one problem I can honestly say I have never, ever had. Admittedly there aren't many spell books before Lair(which is why casters start out with a spellbook with enough power to at least get them there), but there aren't many Artifacts either- spellbooks are rare because they are extremely good. If you want books/spells that aren't RNG reliant, I suggest you worhship Kiku, Sif Muna, or Vehu- they guarantee a veritable cornucopia of spells to choose from.

No, they don't. Vehumet only gives one spell at any one point, Kiku gives two spellbooks, most of which contain spells any decent necromancer will already have (and also one optional one), and Muna demands you get to max peity if you want gifts.
wizzzargh wrote:
To this end, I propose monsters that can cast spells drop their spellbooks.

Your proposal would mean that basically every character would begin with a spellbook containing Magic Dart, Throw Flame/Frost, Haste, Confuse, Invisibility, and possibly Slow. Not very good for diversity, as characters who utilize this guaranteed "Book of Orcish Wizardry" would have a distinct advantage over those who can not or do not.

Perhaps more diverse casters could be added?
wizzzargh wrote:
They're rare drops, and I typicality end up with around 10 spell levels sitting around gathering dust.

This is because there are only so many spells from a book that you need. Spells are like equipment- you aren't supposed to have a complete suit of endgame-capable items until you are at or near the endgame, and the same is true for spells. Making books excessively common would be no different than upping the spawn rate on jewelry, branded weapons, runed armor, and so on. It's probably even more unbalanced for spells, because while a Dagger of Venom or a weak Protection Ring won't be used forever, a Level 1 spell like Animate Skeleton can remain viable as long as there are corpses.

pfffffthahahahaha. No. Animate Skeleton stops being effective early on, because skeletons suck. Furthermore, your spell gain is already restricted by spell levels. Why is it also restricted by spellbooks you can afford?
Furthermore, every other orc seems to drop a runed flail or whatever, whereas no-one drops spellbooks. Nothing annoys me more than the fact that my MuNe has only one spellbook but is practically swimming in magic weapons.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:19

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:No, they don't. Vehumet only gives one spell at any one point, Kiku gives two spellbooks, most of which contain spells any decent necromancer will already have (and also one optional one), and Muna demands you get to max peity if you want gifts.


How many pre-Lair spells are you hoping to get your hands on?

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:39

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:Furthermore, every other orc seems to drop a runed flail or whatever


You realise the vast majority of those runed flails are barely any better (and some even worse) than a standard 0,0 unruned flail?

If you have spell levels "gathering dust" then probably you're training Spellcasting too high rather than focusing on skills that are more useful to you right now. This is actually a feature of Crawl - sometimes you are forced to adapt your character's development based on what you find, you can't always stick to the plan you started with.

khalil wrote:No, they don't. Vehumet only gives one spell at any one point, Kiku gives two spellbooks, most of which contain spells any decent necromancer will already have (and also one optional one), and Muna demands you get to max peity if you want gifts.


A lot of players have complained with New Vehumet that it's a massive problem that they often don't have enough spell slots for the spells Vehumet is offering them. Sif can easily start gifting spells around Lair which is when you might start finding things anyway but it makes it a lot more guaranteed.

khalil wrote:Perhaps more diverse casters could be added?


Adding more diverse casters early in the game would a) spell instant death for a lot more characters and b) effectively reduce the diversity of later-game threats (unless someone is going to come up with a bunch of new spells, which is hard).

You have a choice of background which gives you access to numerous different sets of spells to get you through to Lair. If you can't get that far on the back of your starting kit then you're probably doing something wrong ...

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:41

Re: Monster spellbooks

nicolae wrote:
khalil wrote:No, they don't. Vehumet only gives one spell at any one point, Kiku gives two spellbooks, most of which contain spells any decent necromancer will already have (and also one optional one), and Muna demands you get to max peity if you want gifts.


How many pre-Lair spells are you hoping to get your hands on?

More than in the default spellbook. Given the idea I just gave, I'd get like three spells, max.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:43

Re: Monster spellbooks

mumra wrote:
khalil wrote:Furthermore, every other orc seems to drop a runed flail or whatever


You realise the vast majority of those runed flails are barely any better (and some even worse) than a standard 0,0 unruned flail?


Likewise, the book of orcish magic would be barely any better than your default spellbook. You'd get invisibility and magic dart. That's it.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 01:48

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:Likewise, the book of orcish magic would be barely any better than your default spellbook. You'd get invisibility and magic dart. That's it.


If this is "barely any better than your default spellbook" then what's the point, why would you even want this? (Also you seem to be forgetting Haste.)

Anyway I'm not going to repeat the thing about "you're doing something wrong if your starting book can't get you to at least Lair". Wait, I just did.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 02:08

Re: Monster spellbooks

mumra wrote:
khalil wrote:Likewise, the book of orcish magic would be barely any better than your default spellbook. You'd get invisibility and magic dart. That's it.


If this is "barely any better than your default spellbook" then what's the point, why would you even want this? (Also you seem to be forgetting Haste.)

Anyway I'm not going to repeat the thing about "you're doing something wrong if your starting book can't get you to at least Lair". Wait, I just did.

Why would we put all those -1,0 clubs in if they're worse than your starting mace?
It's because who doesn't like having options.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 02:28

Re: Monster spellbooks

The thing is, spells are completely different to melee weapons.

What I don't see is: what problem are you actually trying to fix? If you're not happy with the Wizard starting spells then you already have a choice: pick a different background.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 02:54

Re: Monster spellbooks

I'd like to suggest an extreme situation: imagine that you start a wizard, which does not choose a spell-gifting god. Throughout the entire game, it is very unlucky with book generation and does not find a single spellbook to complement its starting book. Would this game be: unwinnable, unfun, or flawed in some other fundamental way?

I think that classes are just a collection of things you start with, and just because your character has 'wizard' in the name doesn't mean it can only cast spells.
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 02:57

Re: Monster spellbooks

mumra wrote:The thing is, spells are completely different to melee weapons.

What I don't see is: what problem are you actually trying to fix? If you're not happy with the Wizard starting spells then you already have a choice: pick a different background.

It's not wizard starting spells, its the fact you eventually have a bunch of spell levels sitting around not having anything memorized.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:00

Re: Monster spellbooks

mikee wrote:I'd like to suggest an extreme situation: imagine that you start a wizard, which does not choose a spell-gifting god. Throughout the entire game, it is very unlucky with book generation and does not find a single spellbook to complement its starting book. Would this game be: unwinnable, unfun, or flawed in some other fundamental way?

I think that classes are just a collection of things you start with, and just because your character has 'wizard' in the name doesn't mean it can only cast spells.

Unfun. I don't like playing melee. Furthermore, after a while, your skillset is entrenched enough that branching out to melee or archery due to lack of spellbooks becomes impossible because you'll get chewed up by the monsters of your level.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:10

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:Furthermore, after a while, your skillset is entrenched enough that branching out to melee or archery due to lack of spellbooks becomes impossible because you'll get chewed up by the monsters of your level.


That's simply untrue. There are tons of "caster" backgrounds that have zero problem picking up a weapon and doing well with it. Wz being one of them.
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:15

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:It's not wizard starting spells, its the fact you eventually have a bunch of spell levels sitting around not having anything memorized.


mumra wrote:If you have spell levels "gathering dust" then probably you're training Spellcasting too high rather than focusing on skills that are more useful to you right now. This is actually a feature of Crawl - sometimes you are forced to adapt your character's development based on what you find, you can't always stick to the plan you started with.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:24

Re: Monster spellbooks

mumra wrote:
khalil wrote:It's not wizard starting spells, its the fact you eventually have a bunch of spell levels sitting around not having anything memorized.


mumra wrote:If you have spell levels "gathering dust" then probably you're training Spellcasting too high rather than focusing on skills that are more useful to you right now. This is actually a feature of Crawl - sometimes you are forced to adapt your character's development based on what you find, you can't always stick to the plan you started with.

I generally keep Spellcasting on + and my other magic skills on *. And that's with dodging on + eating up some of spellcasting's XP.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 03:53

Re: Monster spellbooks

Well don't do that

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 04:37

Re: Monster spellbooks

One-Eyed Jack wrote:Well don't do that

I'll try.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 09:20

Re: Monster spellbooks

Well, spellcasting increases MP also. Basically early on I train it for MP and not for spell slots.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 15:40

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:
mumra wrote:
khalil wrote:It's not wizard starting spells, its the fact you eventually have a bunch of spell levels sitting around not having anything memorized.


mumra wrote:If you have spell levels "gathering dust" then probably you're training Spellcasting too high rather than focusing on skills that are more useful to you right now. This is actually a feature of Crawl - sometimes you are forced to adapt your character's development based on what you find, you can't always stick to the plan you started with.

I generally keep Spellcasting on + and my other magic skills on *. And that's with dodging on + eating up some of spellcasting's XP.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 18:53

Re: Monster spellbooks

Despite multiple threats and continued harassment I will stand by my principles and take this opportunity to again denounce the abysmal standards of suggestions presented in this subforum as evidenced by the chronic failure of the average threadstarters to acknowledge both their limitations as players and their misunderstandings regarding game design in what regards Crawl in specific and dare I say logic rational thought in general considering that repeatedly we are exposed to complaints which stem from frustration originated from repeated failure at achieving personal goals in the game with said frustration itself being predictably derived from the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings which continue themselves in a way to present hurdles to improvement towards surpassing the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings creating a vicious cycle in which the aforementioned limitations and misunderstanding manifest themselves in these forums as a tendency to react badly to criticism which is partially what caused in turn some other members less encumbered by limitations and misunderstandings to treat these people in a not at all unsurprising manner which is to say a generous serving of sarcasm or irony or snark or any other treatment which isn't serious in tone but is in clearly serious in effect as we can't just sit here and watch as the forums are constantly subject to mild-mannered abuse which is calamitously endorsed by some people in charge but all things considered I say though not everyone will understand the workings behind what might be seen as poor community spirit you should, and I say this with with no irony at all, consider yourselves - as I consider myself - lucky.
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 19:11

Re: Monster spellbooks

Please don't do that again.

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 19:25

Re: Monster spellbooks

I'm out of breath just reading that...

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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 20:34

Re: Monster spellbooks

That's one hell of a monster vault without any empty grids.
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 20:51

Re: Monster spellbooks

I think some suggestions come because different players have different approaches to the game. Crawl is designed (I believe) to reward flexibility in taking what the RNG hands you and doing your best with it.

I tend to start a game of Crawl thinking, "I would like to try X this game", where X could be as simple as "a melee character" or as specific as "a monstrous demonspawn of Jiyva". I recognize that I am basically butting heads with the game, but that is my problem.

If a player with an approach similar to mine wants to play a spellcaster (which is generally why I start as something like a wizard) and the game gives that player no spellbooks then that would be frustrating. If one does not take that approach to the game then it may just be viewed as a challenge. However, I can easily see why a player with the "character concept" approach would suggest a change to the game to help facilitate their style of play.

I am interested to see the results of the survey which had a question specifically about this issue - of whether or not a player approaches the game with a certain character path in mind. If more players approach the game from that perspective perhaps it is worth considering changes to accommodate that play style more.
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Post Wednesday, 6th March 2013, 20:56

Re: Monster spellbooks

ebarrett wrote:Despite multiple threats and continued harassment I will stand by my principles and take this opportunity to again denounce the abysmal standards of suggestions presented in this subforum as evidenced by the chronic failure of the average threadstarters to acknowledge both their limitations as players and their misunderstandings regarding game design in what regards Crawl in specific and dare I say logic rational thought in general considering that repeatedly we are exposed to complaints which stem from frustration originated from repeated failure at achieving personal goals in the game with said frustration itself being predictably derived from the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings which continue themselves in a way to present hurdles to improvement towards surpassing the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings creating a vicious cycle in which the aforementioned limitations and misunderstanding manifest themselves in these forums as a tendency to react badly to criticism which is partially what caused in turn some other members less encumbered by limitations and misunderstandings to treat these people in a not at all unsurprising manner which is to say a generous serving of sarcasm or irony or snark or any other treatment which isn't serious in tone but is in clearly serious in effect as we can't just sit here and watch as the forums are constantly subject to mild-mannered abuse which is calamitously endorsed by some people in charge but all things considered I say though not everyone will understand the workings behind what might be seen as poor community spirit you should, and I say this with with no irony at all, consider yourselves - as I consider myself - lucky.

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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 00:34

Re: Monster spellbooks

He's saying you're terrible at playing crawl, and that made you suggest something really silly. Also some other stuff. At least the second part is true. It's one of his less offensive posts. Just really painful to read.

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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 00:54

Re: Monster spellbooks

I feel like he was scolded not to be mean to posters ("Despite multiple threats and continued harassment I will stand by my principles") and made a compromise with someone asking him to be nice that he was allowed to respond as long as it was only one sentence. So he came up with that - technically - one sentence. This may or may not have actually happened but it's now official canon in my head.

Edit: to be fair to people posting new suggestions, I feel like there should be some warning: the GDD is a trap designed to let people think they can discuss game design. Actual design is done on a different wiki. We would rather you not go there and clutter things up, though, so we've left this forum mimic here.

The forum mimic bites you!

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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 02:02

Re: Monster spellbooks

tasonir wrote:Edit: to be fair to people posting new suggestions, I feel like there should be some warning: the GDD is a trap designed to let people think they can discuss game design. Actual design is done on a different wiki. We would rather you not go there and clutter things up, though, so we've left this forum mimic here.


This warning does exist, just worded in not as good a way: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7178

Actually, there is no issue in discussing game design here. Unfortunately that discussion something more than 90% of the time necessarily involves telling someone why their idea isn't good. There's nothing wrong with this, a one-sided conversation is not in fact a "discussion"; and the only way to improve at design is by listening to and taking on board the negative feedback. The problem is (and it seems to have been happening an awful lot more lately) that people are often not very good at taking criticism; which is a shame, because it's actually a lot more useful in this context than either getting no reply or (even worse) someone actually agreeing with you when you're barking up completely the wrong tree. I can appreciate regulars becoming jaded, snarky and sarcastic when the good advice that they take time to write is so often completely ignored.

Anyway, this topic has completely drifted off into metaland, but I think we can all agree it has been worthwhile.

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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 02:17

Re: Monster spellbooks

I like animate skeleton - my current character has 10 runes, cleared a Zig, tomb, and holy pan, but is still using that spell heavily.
[Sarcasm]Maybe it's not so useful on the orb run?[/Sarcasm]
:-)
Of course, I'm not using skeletons to kill many things (although dragon skeletons can be useful) but to save turns butchering and to get cheap minions for blocking LOS.

I think there's some value to being forced how to use weak-seeming spells most effectively...

Tasonir: Great answer!
That's why I like having the GDD section here. It gives a great place for suggestions that might be interesting but will never make it to the final game.

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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 03:28

Re: Monster spellbooks

dassem wrote:I like animate skeleton - my current character has 10 runes, cleared a Zig, tomb, and holy pan, but is still using that spell heavily.
[Sarcasm]Maybe it's not so useful on the orb run?[/Sarcasm]
:-)
Of course, I'm not using skeletons to kill many things (although dragon skeletons can be useful) but to save turns butchering and to get cheap minions for blocking LOS.

I think there's some value to being forced how to use weak-seeming spells most effectively...

I generally play mummies. I don't know why, as they are bad at everything, but I do it all the same.
Either way, I don't need to butcher things due to the lack of a food clock.
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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 07:53

Re: Monster spellbooks

To come back to the OP's concern, I don't think having too many spell slots has ever happened to me when playing a caster focused character. The spellbook drop ratio is fine, really, we're not changing it. I usually find at least 2 or 3 books before the end of Lair.
Note that wizards start with a high spellcasting skill and have a book with low level spells, so it's true that you'll fill your slots quickly. And if you haven't found any book by then, just train a weapon skill. If you absolutely want spells, just worship Sif. If you die before she gifts, try Veh (assuming you're playing trunk), he gifts much quicker. Or play an elementalist for higher level spells in your starting book.
If you' ve got any more questions, I suggest you bring them to the advice forum, your suggestion is bad and this thread is becoming very slippery.
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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 11:19

Re: Monster spellbooks

khalil wrote:
dassem wrote:...
I think there's some value to being forced how to use weak-seeming spells most effectively...

I generally play mummies. I don't know why, as they are bad at everything, but I do it all the same.
Either way, I don't need to butcher things due to the lack of a food clock.

Ah, that's really back on point: There are other uses for chunks. Try sublimation of blood or simulcrum if you have necromancy skills (which is quite likely for a magic-using Mummy). Similarly, swapping positions with even a weak skeleton at the right moment might just save your life. (Or, er, un-life for a Mummy?)
If you're winning reliably, then I think the faster spell vs butchering might be good for turn count. Similarly I like to start difficult Zig floors with a big stack of chunks to sublimate when the going gets tough.
A lot of crawl is about learning to use limited resources well. (That's why I picked up on this one minor part within your suggestion.) Giving every character access to more spells early would make each play through more similar and hurt the long-term appeal of the game.
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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 13:08

Re: Monster spellbooks

ebarrett wrote:Despite multiple threats and continued harassment I will stand by my principles and take this opportunity to again denounce the abysmal standards of suggestions presented in this subforum as evidenced by the chronic failure of the average threadstarters to acknowledge both their limitations as players and their misunderstandings regarding game design in what regards Crawl in specific and dare I say logic rational thought in general considering that repeatedly we are exposed to complaints which stem from frustration originated from repeated failure at achieving personal goals in the game with said frustration itself being predictably derived from the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings which continue themselves in a way to present hurdles to improvement towards surpassing the aforementioned limitations and misunderstandings creating a vicious cycle in which the aforementioned limitations and misunderstanding manifest themselves in these forums as a tendency to react badly to criticism which is partially what caused in turn some other members less encumbered by limitations and misunderstandings to treat these people in a not at all unsurprising manner which is to say a generous serving of sarcasm or irony or snark or any other treatment which isn't serious in tone but is in clearly serious in effect as we can't just sit here and watch as the forums are constantly subject to mild-mannered abuse which is calamitously endorsed by some people in charge but all things considered I say though not everyone will understand the workings behind what might be seen as poor community spirit you should, and I say this with with no irony at all, consider yourselves - as I consider myself - lucky.


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Post Thursday, 7th March 2013, 13:17

Re: Monster spellbooks

We've gotten good feedback on OP's idea; I'm gonna lock this. If you want it reopened, PM me.
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