Unloved Spells: Creativity vs Efficiency

[wizzzargh]

I don't think there's any debate that some spells get used more than others. I don't think that this is necessarily a problem- most of the time, this is merely a case of spells having different functions for different characters and different scenarios.

Some spells, however, just... aren't being cast by any type of character. When was the last time you memorized Cigotuvi's Degeneration? When was the last time you thought "Oh yes, Passage of Golubria is exactly the spell I've been looking for?"

It's not that these spells are badly conceived. In fact, most of the spells I'm thinking of have interesting, unique mechanics that add a lot of flavor to the game. The problem is simply that, in terms of what else you could do with those turns, spell levels and MP, there is often very little reason to memorize or cast them- especially considering how uncommon they are. By the time they have been located, the player's strategy will not benefit from learning these spells, and an early book with these spells is going to be attractive either because of the lower-level spells available, or the presence of much better spells alongside them. While I'm sure there are other spells that don't get much attention from players good or bad, these seem to be the worst offenders.

Tukima's Dance: At last, the dreadful power of the Hall of Blades is yours to command! If, anyway, you're a character who focuses on hexes, can spend a lot of time wielding and unwielding weapons, and has enough STR, good weapons, and free inventory slots to to put a MiBe to shame. I'm not really sure what character would be attracted to Tukima's at the moment.
How to make it useful- Tukima's Dance would go from a tedious, suboptimal pseudosummon to a nasty debuff(more appropriate to Hexes) if you could target weapons that enemies wielded. It would probably merit a level increase, but would give it a specific tactical usage against weapon-wielders that would distinguish it from other summons, while still maintaining a very Hexy flavor. Also fun would be the ability to target weapons on the ground, perhaps smite-targeted. This would allow the player to utilize the weapons of the dungeon without having to act like a pack mule, while still allowing them to take the pack mule approach if they desired. In particular, targeting enemy/ground weapons would allow the player to animate weaponry without having to molest the (w)ield key.

Metabolic Englaciation While slowing every enemy in sight sounds good in theory, in practice it functions like a resistible sort of Haste. Like Haste, this spell is also level 6. Unlike Haste, it double dips spellschools, and is in competition with a level 6 spell that seeks to simply KILL all enemies in sight: Ozcubu's Refrigeration (and arguably Freezing Cloud as well) and another level 6 that seeks to inflict a much more more debilitating effect that can effect a much greater range of enemies: Mass Confusion.
How to make it useful- The main problem with this spell is that it simply isn't on par with other level 6 spells. I think reducing it to level 5(but still 2-schooled) could make it much more appealing. It's no longer a Mass Ensorcelled Hibernation, and I think any fear of it being overpowered comes from it's old reputation.
How to make it useful- It IS useful, it's just underpowered to the point of uselessness.

Malign Gateway Without a doubt, I think this is conceptually the coolest summoning spell. Tearing open a portal, you fling the foolish samurai- errr, you summon a tough-as-nails chaos branded brute that takes up multiple tiles. However, it is heavily limited by its dependence on dungeon geography, slow arrival time, and solitary nature. So limited, in fact, that it has a hard time fulfilling its intended role in the summoning school. You can't use it as a quick and reliable meatshield like other summons, you can't drown tough opponents in a horde of Tentacles(Not without Summon Horrible Things, anyway) and you can only use it if you plan on hanging out in a wide open area- an arena to which other summons work just as well, and without the long delay and randomized placement.
How to make it useful: A semi-random placement akin to Passage of Golubria and a quicker emergence time for the tentacle would make the choice of "one really buff summon" vs "enough weaker summons to make the enemy die of starvation before they kill them all" a real choice that doesn't always favor the latter. If entering the Malign Gateway had Distortion-Unwield effects, it could also serve as a desperate escape measure, which would add to the Translocations aspect of the spell.

Passage of Golubria This spell essentially functions as a weird combo of a semi-controlled blink and/or a short teleport that rapidly turns into a maze of wormholes. While hilarious, creative, and of decent utility, barring an early randart spellbook, the books that it shows up in have other escape options like Blink, Control Tele, and Swiftness, all of which are considerably more reliable and easier to make use of. Blink is ridiculously good, so I'm not sure why it seems to be both more common than Passage AND easier to utilize effectively. Blinking multiple times casts little MP and is already a decent escape- coupled with ctele from spell or ring, it is an almost guaranteed escape from most unpleasant situations. Poor Golubria, on the other hand, costs twice as much, becomes less and less reliable the more often it is cast, and needs manual movement to activate.
How to make it useful: Honestly, I think this is a case of Passage being in competition with so many other spells . Passage has potential, it just falls by the wayside when compared to other escape options that are cheap and plentiful, and there is no easy answer like "Reduce Passage to level 3" that can solve this. I've experimented with this spell and think it's very cool, it just doesn't seem to ever be found in the morgues of characters, winner or losers.

Polymorph Other The main reason behind this thread, Polymorph Other is, in my opinion, the quintessential example of a massively fun spell that suffers incredibly from the titular problem of "Efficiency." I do not think I am overstepping my bounds when I say that the goal of most Crawl Players is to win, and the game is balanced with this in mind(as it should be!) However, Polymorph Other occupies a very curious space of game design. Randomness and chance are obstacles to the player's goal to winning- if an activity has a 1 in 100 chance of killing you and little chance of a good payoff, that activity should be avoided, because while the Dungeon will still be there 100% of the time, your character has no similar immortality, and as such must avoid gambling their life if they seek to win against the dungeon that will challenge them 1000's of times. Polymorph other is then seen as a "Bad" spell because it is decreasing the safety of predictability that they are striving for. One need only look at the online records of people killed by "Sigmund the Yellow Wasp" to see how Polymorph is no guarantee of improving a situation. Compared to other spells, Polymorph is a gamble stacked against the player. Many other spells I examined have the problem of "being creative, but suboptimal options." Polymorph, however, isn't just suboptimal. Metabolic Englaciation may be an imperfect choice, but it at least reliably attempts to tip the odds in favor of the player- A promise that Polymorph other does not pretend to make. However, using Polymorph IS fun. It is a one-spell microcosm of Crawl, in which you swap one danger for another, but can never truly eliminate danger itself, and nor would you want to. But then the problem returns- it seems that in some cases, the player is being asked to choose between spells that are efficient and reliable and spells that are creative and unusual in their actions. And using what is reliable over and over again is detrimental to the replayability of the game- clearly players don't only care about winning every time, or we wouldn't even have the concept of "Challenge Races."

I guess what I am trying to illustrate with all this is that while everything doesn't have to be of equal utility, I think that there are some (uncommon) features that, for the player to enjoy those features fully, they have to disregard their primary goal of finding that Orb of Zot. And I think there must be a way that a player can both enjoy these features without feeling like they may be sacrificing a win because they went off the beaten path. Tukima's Dance and Polymorph don't have to become gamewinning strategies, but it would be nice if unpopular spells like this could be tweaked so that they aren't resigned to going "Hohoho, look at my cuh-razy spell list, guys!" and better players shaking their heads in pity and thinking "That's not a spellcaster, that's a disgrace!" This can be avoided if we open up a few more avenues through which the dungeon can be challenged- after all, the game should be about the journey, not final (<) command, and what we all want is more meaningfully different paths on that journey.

Oh yeah, I forgot something when I went off on my tangent.
How to Make it Useful: You can't, because Polymorph Other is still the greatest spell in the game.

[Galefury]

Of the spells you list I have only used Malign Gateway. This nicely illustrates the problem. I like your suggestion for improving it. The other spells also seem problematic. Any ideas for making Cigotuvi's Degeneration more interesting and useful?

[crate]

Tukima, englaciation, and polymorph spell are actually all good right now (though tukima is indeed quite tedious and englaciation could possibly be slightly better).

In fact poly spell is good against a very large number of enemies throughout the entire game. If you use it against the correct enemies it is almost certain to make your situation better and extremely unlikely to get you killed. I used it 134 times on a recent HuCj win.

Gateway is kind of good (it's not actually a summon so it can do some things that other summons can't) but yes it is not terribly useful.

Degeneration is also quite good but overlaps with both agony and actual hexes (like polymorph!) so I would honestly suggest just removing it (especially since it's abusive if you enslave the pulsating lumps ... you can use them to poly enemies without an MR check).

edit: Oh right, for passage I would just suggest not putting scblink in the warper book since then passage would have much less competition.

[wizzzargh]

Of the spells you list I have only used Malign Gateway. This nicely illustrates the problem. I like your suggestion for improving it. The other spells also seem problematic. Any ideas for making Cigotuvi's Degeneration more interesting and useful?

I actually think Cigotuvi's is pretty good, I just know that nobody uses it. Part of it is that necromancers are usually able to handle baddies by just killing the heck out of them(I suspect Necro might be the best school) and part of it is that Cigotuvi's is actually really rare. I think it's only in randarts and Morphology, which is a shame.

In fact poly spell is good against a very large number of enemies throughout the entire game. If you use it against the correct enemies it is almost certain to make your situation better and extremely unlikely to get you killed. I used it 134 times on a recent HuCj win.

Degeneration is also quite good but overlaps with both agony and actual hexes (like polymorph!) so I would honestly suggest just removing it (especially since it's abusive if you enslave the pulsating lumps ... you can use them to poly enemies without an MR check).

edit: Oh right, for passage I would just suggest not putting scblink in the warper book since then passage would have much less competition.

Polymorph does carry certain risks that other spells do not have, though, and I think that scares a lot of people away because of the desire to eliminate the danger of random chance(Also, it's relatively uncommon). I'm glad someone else uses Poly, though- it really is my favorite spell.

I also don't mean to say that the other spells mentioned are useless (Though I totally did say that about englaciation, whoops) just that they might add some verisimilitude if they are made more viable choices.

And I don't think Cigotuvi's needs to be removed for fear of scumminess or bloat- if someone can blow their mana on Degenerating, then Enslaving some slow, easily killed monsters in the hopes of free polymorphs, I don't think that what they were fighting was much of a threat to begin with. And Cigotuvi's is of strategic interest even if it can technically be seen as tactically redundant. It's a way for Necromancers to start looking at Transmutations before Necromutation, or vice versa with Transmuters and Necromancy.
I think, in terms of "Standard" methods of dealing with monsters, Cigotuvi's is at a good example of a multi-school spell- you aren't completely disabling the monster like a Hex, but you aren't just killing it and raising it's corpse like a Necromancer would either.

That's a good idea for raising Passage awareness as well- doesn't the Warper book have like 7 spells in it?

[Davion Fuxa]

For Tukima's Dance, it sort of reminds me of how Sticks to Snakes is used. That spell is an extremely effective one for the Early Game, so perhaps Tukima's Dance might be looked at in the same manner. Dropping it in the Enchanter's or Arcane Marksmen's Starting Spellbook might allow it to see more use - outside of taking off cursed weapons. I do like the idea of it being something that could target stuff on the ground though, that could make it more useful later as well.

For Polymorph Other, I use it the effect from time to time myself, but it's biggest drawback is that their is the Wand of Polymorph which you can also make use of. Most of the time the enemies which are the best targets for it don't have any meaningful MR so the Wand is just about as good as the spell if you happen to find one. I personally don't see problems with the spell's use outside of that though - yes it is random and all but it can have surprisingly decent payoffs.

in regards to the other mentioned spells outside of Cigotuvi's Degeneration, it is really a problem of overlap and not being as strong as their counterpart spells in some way. Blink and Controlled Blink are more more simple to use then Passage of Golubria and are more accessible, Metabolic Englaciation suffers from the fact that you need to train up Ice Magic along with Hexes where Mass Confusion just requires Hexes, Malign Gateway is competing with far better Summoning spells - though maybe it will be more useful in the next update where Summons won't be able to attack off screen.

[mikee]

I have used all of these spells, but the only one I would never consider learning again is tukima's dance. The weapon's power is so dependent on spellpower than by the time you can make strong tukimas (assuming you are training hexes very high, which you probably won't be), you don't need them. Prior to 0.6, their strength was independent of the weapon's weight and your spellpower, so the spell was very cheesy and too good. Now, I don't know what a good solution is. People might think I am crazy but I would actually like to see tukima's dance replaced by some weaker variation of tukima's ball.

Re: passage of golubria: this one is actually the simplest for me to find uses for, since I don't think of it as an escape spell at all. I use it for stabbing.

[Davion Fuxa]

Maybe make it so that the Weapons Power (or effectiveness) is dependent on your Fighting Skill and/or Weapon skill - It's skill is based off your skill so if you aren't effective at swinging it, it won't be effective at it either. Hexes can just effect the duration of how long they stay afloat or last.

Another idea might be that you can only have one Dancing Weapon up at a time, and you can't equip any weapons while it is in use or the enchantment will wear off. The purpose of the spell is mostly to act as a ranged melee attack inflicted by you - which can chase down enemies that flee or free you up to do other actions while the Weapon hits things in the process.

[Jeremiah]

Isn't there a plan to remove Control Teleport? In that case Passage of Golubria would only be in competition with Controlled Blink which is much higher level.

Another possibly underloved spell: Conjure Ball Lightning. While it can in theory do significant damage, the fact that it can't be targeted and damages the caster means that it is rarely going to be competitive with other attack spells of a similar level, eg OOD or Chain Lightning. It also got worse in 0.12 as the Insulation spell, which used to be found in the same book and gave the caster protection from the effects, was removed, making it even less likely that I would ever want to cast it.

I'm not really sure what could be done to improve it - maybe give the caster some control over the direction of the ball lightnings, ie choose a (smite) target and they tend to generally move in that direction rather than completely randomly. Or maybe give the caster some protection from the effects so you take less damage if they explode next to you.

[Lasty]

I've used both Tukima's Dance and Conjure Ball Lightning to good effect. In the former case, if a hex-focused character picks up Tukima's early, it's a great way to take care of random unhexable stuff -- high MR uniques, golems, Mennas, etc. Carrying around suitable weapons is a little irritating, but manageable.

Conjure Ball Lightning is definitely way better if you have rElec, but once you do, it does absurd damage per cast -- it takes care of the Vaults:5 welcoming party quite handily. Granted, I'll usually forget it once I have Chain Lightning or Tornado, but there's a chunk of the game where it fills a sweet spot.

[Baldu]

Not sure if it was changed, but degeneration+polymorph used to make it possible, when abused far too much for fun, to obtain level 27 around D15. That was the least fun game ever but i used to be very bad and looking for ways to win ok??

Also ball lightning is one of the spells that does the most damage per MP in the entire game. Only problem is even if the damage from it on the player per ball isnt very high with relec, it quickly adds up. It also opens up fun new ways to deal with enemies a bit like axe cleave, I just love that spell. Dunno what to suggest to make it more popular though as if it didnt hurt the player at all it may well be very overpowered.

edit: i really like the suggestion to be able to cast tukima on enemies, like Xom does sometimes. I would certainly use it!

[mumra]

How to make it useful- Tukima's Dance would go from a tedious, suboptimal pseudosummon to a nasty debuff(more appropriate to Hexes) if you could target weapons that enemies wielded. It would probably merit a level increase, but would give it a specific tactical usage against weapon-wielders that would distinguish it from other summons, while still maintaining a very Hexy flavor. Also fun would be the ability to target weapons on the ground, perhaps smite-targeted. This would allow the player to utilize the weapons of the dungeon without having to act like a pack mule, while still allowing them to take the pack mule approach if they desired. In particular, targeting enemy/ground weapons would allow the player to animate weaponry without having to molest the (w)ield key.

I also think this is a really good idea, except for animating from floor weapons. This would make it too easy to make barriers for monsters, you can just keep reanimating their own weapon! (As well as other degenerate behaviours.) Animating what the monster is wielding means there's an MR check and probably weapons animated this way should be weaker than the current version. It can still be self-targetable so people aren't trying silly things like dropping weapons and trying to get monsters to pick them up. Of course how much it affects balance being able to take away a monster's primary attack I'm not sure.

[njvack]

In fact poly spell is good against a very large number of enemies throughout the entire game. If you use it against the correct enemies it is almost certain to make your situation better and extremely unlikely to get you killed. I used it 134 times on a recent HuCj win.

For you, it's good because you're an expert and know the mechanics of the spell. Since it's HD-based, this just means knowing which monsters are threatening (or annoying) disproportionately to their HD (hello, boggarts).

But! HD isn't exposed as a thing anywhere in the game, so unless you've read the knowledge bot entries for monsters a whole lot (or poly hundreds of monsters) you can't really know which enemies are the correct ones to poly. Jellies are slow monsters you don't want to melee, and poly'ing them is great (oh no an ooze). Agate snails are in the same category, but poly'ing them is terrifying (oh no a storm dragon).

I'm not advocating exposing HD in-game, but poly other will be pretty spoiler-dependent as long as it uses HD as its selection criteria.

XP might be better?

[crate]

It's pretty easy to figure out what ends up being dangerous to poly by actually trying it. There are really not very many enemies where it is truly a mistake to try to polymorph that enemy (especially if you use it on targets that are reasonable: a good example is that you know that very many enemies cannot use equipment, so polymorphing enemies that do use equipment is almost always a good idea! Similarly red/yellow wasps have terribly scary melee if you don't have rpois, but are otherwise pretty wimpy, so as you might expect they polymorph into enemies that are not terribly dangerous, etc).

About the only things that are really terrible to polymorph are j's or maybe some beetles? Or obviously things that have enough MR that you won't succeed anyway.

[jejorda2]

When you target an enemy with spells like lightning bolt or mephitic cloud, the targetter shows you what else might be hit so you can decide whether it is worth the risk. What if, when you target an enemy with polymorph other, three possible results are shown, and then the enemy always polymorphs into one of those three monsters?

The Jelly may morph into an Ooze, an Orc Priest, or a Giant Frog. Continue?

[Davion Fuxa]

It's pretty easy to figure out what ends up being dangerous to poly by actually trying it.

This is an extremely bad way for a spell to be designed because what is dangerous might kill you, which further isolates the spell into the list of unloved spells since most people don't want to 'kill' their characters.

When you target an enemy with spells like lightning bolt or mephitic cloud, the targetter shows you what else might be hit so you can decide whether it is worth the risk. What if, when you target an enemy with polymorph other, three possible results are shown, and then the enemy always polymorphs into one of those three monsters?

The Jelly may morph into an Ooze, an Orc Priest, or a Giant Frog. Continue?

This sounds like a decent way to add some love to Polymorph Other since it gives the player the potential to judge what it might be Polymorphing a Mob into, but it would probably get really annoying if it was prompted before every cast and it might make it a bit scummable if you cast it, get bad options, cancel, and repeat until you get better options while mana lasts.

[galehar]

Tukima's Dance
I like the idea of targetting a monster to animate its weapon

Malign Gateway
Indeed, reducing the emerging time seems like a needed boost for this unique and interesting spell.

Passage of Golubria
This one is great but it suffers too much from the competition of control teleport (and by consequence, semi controlled blink). Of the 3 books in which passage of Golubria is found, 2 also have control teleport (which is also in one other book). Removing or nerfing control teleport would help. If nobody tries to nerf it, I bet MarvinPA will end up removing it

Polymorph Other
It suffers mostly from the spoileriness of monsters' HD, but as crate pointed out, it can be learned reasonably well by experiment, so it's not a huge deal. Changing it to be based on XP rather than HD wouldn't really change anything and would be complicated to implement.

[blackcustard]

I've learned Tukima's once or twice, usually on spell heavy hybrids. It's never done very much for me, and it's a pain to retrieve your weapon, even with apportion.

I've never used any of the others.

I did once use the wrapwright card to create a teleportion trap in the D27 Zot portal castle vault, with all the draconians. It was handy, I could run in and kill a draconian or two, then teleport out. Or lure them onto it and scatter them around. Passage of Golubria could serve the same purpose, and maybe I should try it out.

Also, excellent Samurai Jack reference. Did not see that coming. Would buy again.

[crate]

It's pretty easy to figure out what ends up being dangerous to poly by actually trying it.

This is an extremely bad way for a spell to be designed because what is dangerous might kill you, which further isolates the spell into the list of unloved spells since most people don't want to 'kill' their characters.

Do you know how you find out what monsters do? You fight them, and you die to them. This is how crawl is designed to work. You are supposed to die, you are supposed to die often. But then when you die you learn what went wrong.

You find out how good spells are by trying them. You find out how good weapons are by trying them. I see no problem with how polymorph effect works in crawl. You can argue that perhaps it should not be a spell for other reasons (primarily because wands exist--and are similarly very good!!) but the effect seems fine to me.

[pubby]

I think metabolic englaciation should have a secondary effect that works on rC enemies. Something that differentiates it from haste.

[njvack]

You find out how good spells are by trying them. You find out how good weapons are by trying them. I see no problem with how polymorph effect works in crawl. You can argue that perhaps it should not be a spell for other reasons (primarily because wands exist--and are similarly very good!!) but the effect seems fine to me.

This is true -- at the same time, a character in Crawl is a huge time investment -- I'm still up at 3-4 hours to clear lair. Combined with the rarity of getting poly other and a character who can cast it, I can totally see why it doesn't get much love. Learning to use it is risky, and Crawl does not reward taking risks.

All this being said I agree with wizzzargh: it's pretty much the best spell ever.

[jejorda2]

There's an idea for haste: It now affects everything in sight, unless it has rF. So you have to remove any rF equipment before casting haste if you want the benefit, and you pretty much have to cast it before approaching your enemy.

[evktalo]

Tukima's Dance
I like the idea of targetting a monster to animate its weapon

Ditto.

Malign Gateway
Indeed, reducing the emerging time seems like a needed boost for this unique and interesting spell.

I keep thinking the spell is perhaps at the right spot, but most of the Summonings are perpetually overpowered. But a buff like that can always be rolled back.

--Eino

[XuaXua]

Part of the problem with degeneration is that they degenerate into lumps that are somewhat tough to kill and can mutate you on contact. Remove the mutation aspect, and that makes the spell more likely to be used.

[XuaXua]

With Polymorph Other, since the user's intent is likely to reduce the severity of a monster, why not increase that likelihood with skill, and leave the danger with wand use?

[Psieye]

Tukima was very useful for my VpEn as it let me get access to summons without having to invest in another skill while letting me get some use out of awesome 2h artifacts that I will never have EXP budget to train myself to wield. Since dancing weapons can use stairs, I can get my dance going and then descend to enter the party. The issue I have with it is, you can tediously re-cast it every now and then to drag those huge 2h weapons without much Str or inventory space - a lategame character is likely to have a means of reloading MP quickly to pull this off.

Passage of Golubria was something I used to keep enemies away from me in a corridor back when you only got 1 portal per cast. Now that I get a 2nd portal somewhere randomly near me I can't do this reliably anymore. I never really saw it as something to re-locate me: that's what scBlink is for. Passage is a MR-ignoring "blink other to somewhere else" spell. Given this view, my preferred fix would be to let me place both portals on one cast, with the option to extend an existing portal instead of having to make a new one. To flesh that idea out:

- Accuracy of placing the portals increases the closer to me I want them placed: at range 1, the portal is guaranteed to appear where I want it but at range 6 the portal might appear anywhere in a radius 2 circle of where I chose.
- When placing portals, if I select a location that already has an existing portal, I extend the timer on that portal instead of creating a new one in roughly the same area. This way, I can choose to create only 1 not 2 new portals.


With Cigotuvi's Degeneration, I'm thinking something like this might give it more love:
- A monster can turn into more than 1 pulsating lump depending on size.
- The resulting lump(s) are neutral.

[pubby]

I think metabolic englaciation should have a secondary effect that works on rC enemies. Something that differentiates it from haste.

Being more like haste would differentiate it from haste?

The secondary effect would be a hex unrelated to speed or something. A silly idea would be to remove a pip of rF from them, or berserk them for 2-3 turns.

Part of the problem with degeneration is that they degenerate into lumps that are somewhat tough to kill and can mutate you on contact. Remove the mutation aspect, and that makes the spell more likely to be used.

There's the option of form-changing polymorph attacks. Perhaps one that makes you lumpy.

[Sporkman]

There is, I think, precisely one problem with Tukima's Dance - it's just plain bloody tedious to use. So any way of reducing tedium without making it too much more powerful would be good.

[rebthor]

- The resulting lump(s) are neutral.

Came to post this as a possible buff to Degeneration.

[jejorda2]

The tedious parts are picking out the best weapons, carrying them around, and wielding them.

Using weapons wielded by enemies means that selecting and carrying weapons is taken away. It makes the spell much less useful against some of the enemies where you wanted to use the dancing weapons' resistances, and slightly more useful against some enemies that use weapons. It's probably not worthwhile to make a "remove weapons" spell because the enemy is usually still as dangerous without the weapon.

How about making it summon a dancing weapon that disappears on death like summons do? Let the weapon class and strength be based on weapon skills, and the duration be based on spellpower.

[Sporkman]

The tedious parts are picking out the best weapons,

Not too hard. A half-decent weapon is easy enough to find. (Note I don't say a GOOD weapon. Unless you're in a dire situation, using a good weapon with TD is pretty stupid... and even then, probably not a good idea.)

carrying them around,

Eh, not a huge problem so long as you're not carrying enough to create a whole swarm. Then it's pretty bad, yes, because it eats up inventory space like crazy regardless of how much you can carry.

and wielding them.

Not really bad, but if you're making a large number it gets tedious fast. Also applies to Sticks to Snakes slightly, but at least they can't pick up the weapons afterwards and club you to death with them!

Maybe we could allow the player to use TD on weapons they aren't currently wielding ("You grab a weapon from your pack and enchant it to fight!")? If balance is needed, it could take longer to do this. It could even be a simple interface improvement (EG you have to wield the weapon first anyway, it just automates it).

EDIT:

How about making it summon a dancing weapon that disappears on death like summons do? Let the weapon class and strength be based on weapon skills, and the duration be based on spellpower.

... no. Then it's just another summoning spell with an odd school setup.

[Sporkman]

I hate to break it to you, but it's already just another summoning spell with an odd school setup. It's just more of a pain in the ass to use than other summoning spells.

At least it has a unique material cost, and you see the results of paying that cost in a unique way. And to the player, it doesn't really look like a summon - it might be one in the code, but what the player sees is their weapon coming alive to slice-and-dice (or bash-and-smash, or stab...) their enemies. That's what I'd really like to preserve about TD.

... that said, it would be nice to give Summoning some more unusual spells. But that's another topic.

[hxy]

How about this:
- Let user choose weapon from inventory or floor (i.e. no need to wield)
- Animated weapon disappears on death

In this way, casting the spell is easier, but you can't spam it too much due to the limited number of weapons around.

[Davion Fuxa]

How about this:
- Let user choose weapon from inventory or floor (i.e. no need to wield)
- Animated weapon disappears on death

In this way, casting the spell is easier, but you can't spam it too much due to the limited number of weapons around.

This sounds like an okay idea, but I bet people would probably just use the spell as a way to get rid of powerful weapons they don't want in the hands of enemies more then just a one time summon. That's one of the benefits of it falling to the ground after defeated, enemies can pick it up.

[Psieye]

There is, I think, precisely one problem with Tukima's Dance - it's just plain bloody tedious to use. So any way of reducing tedium without making it too much more powerful would be good.

It sounds like a perma-buff framework would be applicable here: your Max MP is reduced by a set amount per weapon you have dancing for you at a time and they don't time out (though you can cancel them). Combine with "you don't have to individually wield every weapon you want to dance" and that should reduce tedium without really increasing power.

Or just treat it like eating - the spell asks you if you want to animate the weapon at your feet and if not, asks you to (multi)pick the weapon(s) in your inventory to animate (with a warning on how many turns and mp this will take).

[njvack]

polymorphing enemies that do use equipment is almost always a good idea!

OK, I just polymorphed Sonja and, um, yeah. This is a good rule of thumb. Thanks!

I hereby modify "it's hard to know what to poly" into "it's hard to know what to poly if you aren't thinking about it very hard."

[Sporkman]

It sounds like a perma-buff framework would be applicable here: your Max MP is reduced by a set amount per weapon you have dancing for you at a time and they don't time out (though you can cancel them). Combine with "you don't have to individually wield every weapon you want to dance" and that should reduce tedium without really increasing power.

Well that would be rather interesting. Using Max MP to fuel it sounds like a good tradeoff for a spellcaster: 'Do I want semi-perma-allies or do I want the ability to cast more spells?' Cost might be an issue, but it certainly makes it more useful and unique.

[Psieye]

Well, you'd get the max MP back when the weapon dies, but that's unlikely to be useful for the fight right now unless you have elixir cards stacked for the occasion.

[Sporkman]

I still like the idea. It makes it very different from other 'summon ally' spells.

Perhaps they could even follow modified Battlesphere movement logic, staying close to the player whenever possible?

[nicolae]

Farewell, Cigotuvi's Degeneration. You were too good for this world. So to speak.

[Bim]

Letting Tukima smite target (or LOS really) a weapon would actually make mid/late game hexes worth while in an offensive way which would be great. Gateway could really do with a boost, but after that it'd be awesome!

Note, I don't mean worthwhile or awesome in an easier way, just in a way that they'd be useful and less tedious.

[prozacelf]

Sporkman wrote:There is, I think, precisely one problem with Tukima's Dance - it's just plain bloody tedious to use. So any way of reducing tedium without making it too much more powerful would be good.

It sounds like a perma-buff framework would be applicable here: your Max MP is reduced by a set amount per weapon you have dancing for you at a time and they don't time out (though you can cancel them). Combine with "you don't have to individually wield every weapon you want to dance" and that should reduce tedium without really increasing power.

Or just treat it like eating - the spell asks you if you want to animate the weapon at your feet and if not, asks you to (multi)pick the weapon(s) in your inventory to animate (with a warning on how many turns and mp this will take).

This would be a great upgrade for both Tukima and Sticks to Snakes. They are both eminently usable spells that just happen to be a real pain in the ass, especially if you want to spam them in an emergency. I think both spells would benefit from the max MP solution. For 2-3 level spells, they probably should not be able to animate more than one weapon at a time, but if you could just choose the item from inventory instead of having to wield it, that would make both spells a lot more accessible too. Tukima in particular might be overpowered if you could use it on floor weapons or weapons that are being held by monsters, but I think that it's a spell that could really benefit from some of the changes mentioned here. I love the spell, but it's almost never an optimal solution to a problem because you have to wield a new weapon every time you cast it.

Besides, I like the idea of carrying around a great sword with my VpEn but not actually having to have it in my hands