Remove paralysis

[eeviac]

Proposal: replace all instances of paralysis with petrification. Wands, sphinxes, chaos brand, grinder, etc.. Eyeballs can keep their special gaze because they're an interesting and manageable threat.

Paralysis is not fun. Too often, it means you're one bad MR roll away from a bad situation. It leads to deaths where you feel cheated. On the other hand, petrification can be reacted to. It doesn't leave you completely defenseless. Petrification is fair.

[Kate]

Smite-targeted, irresistible paralysis is "manageable" but line-of-sight, resistible paralysis somehow isn't? Interesting.

[Davion Fuxa]

The thing about the Giant Eyeball is that it has no other attacks other then to stare at you - it is like a Moth of Rage in that it is only effective when other monsters are around.

That said, I don't think paralysis as it works now is bad - but it lasts quite a long time where your player can't do anything but get whacked it. I'd maybe reduce the duration for the effect or perhaps make it more like sleep where if you are hit you may be broken out of it. IE, Grinder hits you with Paralysis, for 3 turns he approaches you, he hits you with Pain on the 4th turn and you get a chance to break out of paralysis - but fail, and so on until you either break out cause you succeed on the check or the effect times out. This is in contrast to sleep where the first hit wakes you up, with paralysis you only get a check when your hit.

[eeviac]

My perception is that eyeball paralysis doesn't last as long as spell paralysis. Typically 2-3 turns as opposed to 4+ turns. I might be wrong.

The thing with eyeballs, in addition to what Davion said, is that they're predictable, slow, and easily killed. If you're in LOS, kill it fast or get out. Much less fun is the orc sorcerer/ogre mage/randlord who happens to generate with that particular spell, or the chaos brand hit that just happens to disable you. Maybe my opinions have become warped from too much crawling, but giant eye gaze just feels more fair than a failed MR check into instant death. Petrification, on the other hand, gives you a turn or two to prepare.

[eeviac]

That's true, but petrification would accomplish the same thing in a less binary manner.

[Galefury]

Another option for replacing most instances of paralysis is sleep. Also, disabling all actions but the use of potions and scrolls instead of complete paralysis might be interesting. I agree with the OP, paralysis leads to a lot of deaths where you feel cheated. At least taking it out of random spellbooks would be good.

And before someone mentions instant kills from high damage attacks like LCS: these also lead to deaths where you simply feel cheated.

The best option for dealing with MR would be a complete redesign IMO. The current MR system is shit. It's complicated, unintuitive and annoying, both on the monster and the player side.

[dpeg]

galefury: I am not too happy with the current paralysis situation either but I am not sure about your suggestion. I understand that you want players to use up consumables instead of dying but blowing a teleportation scroll all the time will reduce the number of interesting encounters. (I do like how the presence of one giant eye changes the situation completely.)
What if it was the other way around? Paralysis is unpopular because you can do absolutely nothing but read messages and watch your HP go down. Incapacitating the player is good, so the game just overshoots by making the incapacitation complete. What are some other options? (Don't care about the flavour at this point; the thing could obviously be renamed.)

a) Allow a restricted set of actions. Galefury suggests use of potions and scrolls (but nothing else).
b) A different take: allow only walking but nothing else (in particular, no melee attack).
c) Make sure that the player does not die (e.g. magically stop the effect at maxHP/6, say).

I'd like to give the player a guaranteed action after the effect rather than before so that "teleporation" isn't always the obvious solution.

I agree with all of you on the dubious role of MR. And yes, instadeaths are almost never good. For example, I mind being blown up by a single orb of destruction much less than being killed by a single crystal spear. Both are technically instadeaths, but the former is a noticeable bit less so.

[Davion Fuxa]

I can't say I think much of the idea of Paralysis disabling all actions but specific actions like quaffing potions and scrolls; either Paralysis stops you completely or it is no longer working intuitively.

If we are going to discuss an idea of it doing something else we might as well rename the effect to something else so that we keep it intuitive - what I see being described here is turning 'Paralysis' into a 'Fear Effect'. I'm not against such an effect being used to replace Paralysis but I wouldn't want such an effect being used and called Paralysis.

If we use a Fear effect though, I would simple limit the character to escape actions only.

[KoboldLord]

the main effect of paralysis is making MR much more important than any other resistance in the game (if you even consider it a resistance which you may as well not)

It's more like AC/EV/SH, except instead of occasionally blocking an instance of hit point damage it makes you not die.

a) Allow a restricted set of actions. Galefury suggests use of potions and scrolls (but nothing else).
b) A different take: allow only walking but nothing else (in particular, no melee attack).

Don't Move and Don't Act are pretty common variants in a variety of other games, going by a variety of names. Porkolation is pretty much Don't Act, but there's definitely room in the game for a spell that lets the player fight but doesn't let them maneuver backward to get into a corridor. It would go well on monsters like ogre mages, which have a squad of melee brute followers that only rarely get to surround players because the players keep running away.

How about three divisions:
Cripple: The affected character can't feel their legs or other relevant appendages. They sink to their knees, suffering a modest penalty to attacks and defenses, but more importantly they can't move around at all without crawling. Their hands and mind work just fine, and eventually the localized paralysis wears off.
Feeblemind: The affected character can't think properly. Actions that require human or near-human intelligence can't be performed. They can lash out with whatever sharp or blunt object is at hand or blindly trigger an item of power, but they don't remember any of their training and are effectively at 0 skill in everything. Eventually the mental fugue wears off.
Binding: The affected character's hands or other relevant appendages bind themselves to each other with magical cords. Temporary felid item restrictions, except equipped armor stays equipped. As usual, the cords eventually fray and fade.

[ebarrett]

Just asking, are we completely sure none of the other Annual Grand Threads About Paralysis yielded anything of use? Do we need to pretty much reset this discussion every once in a while?

Also, eyeball paralysis feels immediately "fair" because eyeballs are like speed 4 and even die in one hit from any decent wand as soon as you have a clear shot so it's never really a threat unless you're playing very badly. ALSO, no matter how much people complain, paralysis from other sources tends to not kill the player anyway, since most of the time you need to already be in a sort of bad position to not come out of paralysis alive. It has the highest unfairness potential in the game, but it's still all freak occurrences.

[KoboldLord]

Just asking, are we completely sure none of the other Annual Grand Threads About Paralysis yielded anything of use?

I'm pretty sure we have them a whole lot more often than just annually.

Paralysis isn't as deadly as its reputation suggests, but on the other hand it takes control away from the player. Regardless of the actual threat it presents when handled correctly, getting control of your character is going to be vexing all out of proportion to its actual mechanical impact. While normal sources of paralysis aren't as completely ridiculous as Hell Effect paralysis, that doesn't mean there isn't still room for improvement.

[Davion Fuxa]

That's true, but petrification would accomplish the same thing in a less binary manner.

um i brought up the MR thing as a bad effect of paralysis, not a good one

What if paralysis prevented you from moving for its duration, but did nothing to other actions? I would also give make nets/webs give that enchantment instead of having their ridiculous escape formulas. (if you're a dev reading this and don't think the net escape formula is ridiculous I encourage you to look at traps.cc line 1332)

Webs and Throwing nets work intuitively so I would leave them be.

I'm not against the idea of a spell that works like what you are suggesting however; Call the Spell 'Foot Binding' or 'Sticky Feet' . Effectively you are Binding the Targets Feet (maybe make Flying Targets descend downwards) to the floor which prevents them from being able to move but they can attack with weapons, cast spells, and what not as they usually do for a brief duration; maybe with a penalty to Dodging or Shields too.

[byrel]

I would also give make nets/webs give that enchantment instead of having their ridiculous escape formulas. (if you're a dev reading this and don't think the net escape formula is ridiculous I encourage you to look at traps.cc line 1332)

Your comment intrigued me, so here's the actual code for that:

  Code:

if (do_what <= 0) // You try to destroy the net
1320       {
1321           // For previously undamaged nets this takes at least 2 and at most
1322           // 8 turns.
1323           bool can_slice =
1324               (you.form == TRAN_BLADE_HANDS)
1325               || (you.weapon() && can_cut_meat(*you.weapon()));
1326   
1327           int damage = -do_what;
1328   
1329           if (damage < 1)
1330               damage = 1;
1331   
1332           if (you.berserk())
1333               damage *= 2;
1334   
1335           // Medium sized characters are at a disadvantage and sometimes
1336           // get a bonus.
1337           if (you.body_size(PSIZE_BODY) == SIZE_MEDIUM)
1338               damage += coinflip();
1339   
1340           if (damage > 5)
1341               damage = 5;
1342   
1343           hold -= damage;
1344           mitm[net].plus = hold;
1345   
1346           if (hold < -7)
1347           {
1348               mprf("You %s the net and break free!",
1349                    can_slice ? (damage >= 4? "slice" : "cut") :
1350                                (damage >= 4? "shred" : "rip"));
1351   
1352               destroy_item(net);
1353   
1354               you.attribute[ATTR_HELD] = 0;
1355               you.redraw_quiver = true;
1356               you.redraw_evasion = true;
1357               return;
1358           }
1359   
1360           if (damage >= 4)
1361           {
1362               mprf("You %s into the net.",
1363                    can_slice? "slice" : "tear a large gash");
1364           }
1365           else
1366               mpr("You struggle against the net.");
1367   
1368           // Occasionally decrease duration a bit
1369           // (this is so switching from damage to escape does not hurt as much).
1370           if (you.attribute[ATTR_HELD] > 1 && coinflip())
1371           {
1372               you.attribute[ATTR_HELD]--;
1373   
1374               if (you.attribute[ATTR_HELD] > 1 && hold < -random2(5))
1375                   you.attribute[ATTR_HELD]--;
1376           }
1377       }
1378       else
1379       {
1380           // You try to escape (takes at least 3 turns, and at most 10).
1381           int escape = do_what;
1382   
1383           if (you.duration[DUR_HASTE] || you.duration[DUR_BERSERK]) // extra bonus
1384               escape++;
1385   
1386           // Medium sized characters are at a disadvantage and sometimes
1387           // get a bonus.
1388           if (you.body_size(PSIZE_BODY) == SIZE_MEDIUM)
1389               escape += coinflip();
1390   
1391           if (escape > 4)
1392               escape = 4;
1393   
1394           if (escape >= you.attribute[ATTR_HELD])
1395           {
1396               if (escape >= 3)
1397                   mpr("You slip out of the net!");
1398               else
1399                   mpr("You break free from the net!");
1400   
1401               you.attribute[ATTR_HELD] = 0;
1402               you.redraw_quiver = true;
1403               you.redraw_evasion = true;
1404               remove_item_stationary(mitm[net]);
1405               return;
1406           }
1407   
1408           if (escape >= 3)
1409               mpr("You try to slip out of the net.");
1410           else
1411               mpr("You struggle to escape the net.");
1412   
1413           you.attribute[ATTR_HELD] -= escape;
1414       }

tl;dr (it really is tl) You can either try to destroy the net, or escape it. Each method runs up an independant counter, with explicit cross linking to avoid being 'too harsh' if you change strategies midstream. The formulas for escape/damage are remarkably similar in flavor, but different in detail with no obvious reason for the differences.

To be honest, I didn't even know I had a choice between hacking my way out and slipping out. I'm not sure there's a good reason to have two mechanics here, but by the same token, nets and webs do operate fairly instinctively in the current interface. The redundancy seems most likely to bug codedivers, not players.

I have to admit that I've always felt crawl's paralysis was rather gentle. That probably comes from my Nethack background, and the suicide that was floating eyes. I like the petrification of the catoblepas, but I don't think it should replace paralysis on floating eyes. We already have stasis amulets, which are useful precisely because paralysis is bad. Weakening paralysis (particularly by giving someone a turn to teleport!) is just going to make stasis a uniformly bad amulet.

Some sort of wake-up mechanism would be less disturbing. Perhaps a hit more than 10% of maxHP would have (say) a 33% chance of ending the paralysis. That way you have a good chance of being woken before dying. It's a simple nerf to paralysis, but it won't actually change your prevention incentives much; you'll still use stasis on sight in moderately dangerous situations.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Why not take an approach more similar to Pokemon? I know what you're saying, that's a simply JRPG and we're in a Roguelike here, but the way it handles paralysis could actually work nicely in DCSS, either to replace the current mechanics or as a new effect somewhere. In Pokemon, when something gets paralyzed, it's speed drops by about half and has a 25% chance of not being able to act every turn. Needless to say, it can swing the pace and momentum of a battle right then and there.

In Crawl, we could translate it into some sort of partial paralysis where the joints and muscles are tensed and partially locked up. The player can take whatever action they want at reduced speed with a small chance of being unable to succeed ("Your body refuses to move!"). It would force an interesting tactical situation that could be potentially deadly without stealing control from the player. Deaths from paralysis would feel more like "I should have done X instead of Y after I got paralyzed" rather than "BULLSH^T!"

Although one minor thing is that Chei followers could potentially benefit from that form of paralysis for Slouch damage and piety gain. Not sure if that'd have any noticeable effect or not.

[byrel]

  Code:

           if (you.berserk())
               damage *= 2;

It is strange, and it's hardly the only strange thing in that formula. I mean, Berserk adds 1 to your escape chances if you're escaping as well, which is no more obviously right than this. Berserk will only knock 1-2 turns off anyhow, as damage is promptly capped at five.

But my point is, I would never have known this weirdness was there from my experiences with throwing nets. Perhaps it's because they're rare; but if I understood right, this same code applies to the webs which are quite common in Spider. And I never noticed that this was weird from play: it simply takes 3-4 turns to escape. So it's inelegant, but not really in a way that impacts play. If it ever gets overhauled, hopefully it can be sanified. Until then it seems to work alright as is.

@TwilightPheonix: That's basically already in the game: Slow. Except that the Pokemon version is apparently (on average) 25% slower yet, so it needs to reduce speed to 37% instead of 50%. I doubt the difference is sufficiently significant to be worth bothering with a whole new effect for.

[o_O]

Make MR checks less binary by having MR reduce duration/severity of effects. Getting paralyzed with 0MR by a high spell power paralyze gives many turns of paralysis. Getting paralyzed with very high MR by a low spell power paralysis would only cause a turn or two of paralysis on the off chance it managed to affect you. The issue with MR is most of the time your MR completely protects you and sometimes it does nothing against a potential instakill.

This is also the issue with hexes. Imagine if conjurations just had a percent chance to kill a target instead of dealing damage.

[Bim]

I have to agree with o_O that making MR less binary seems to be the way to go in making hexes less rubbish (MR resistance lowers turns affected instead of just blocks it completely all the time) and getting rid of the the impossibly long paralysis. I like the idea of paralysis making some moves possible and not others - possibly paralyse could drop your EV down to practically nothing, slow you considerably and only allow you to use wands or potions. Perhaps potions of agility/speed could negate the effects instead of the usual curing?

I have to say that my favourite thing about crawl over other rogues is it's attempt to make you feel in control most of the time and avoids insta-death situations, as has been mentioned, it's never as much of an issue if I can say 'I should have done x instead of y', but it is if I just instantly die going down some stairs.

[byrel]

I have to agree with o_O that making MR less binary seems to be the way to go in making hexes less rubbish .

Less Rubbish?!?!? My last SpEn would enslave stone and frost giants to kill off shadow dragons on V:5! Hexes can pretty much clear the (3-rune) game with level 4 and down spells. I don't think they really need a buff, and I'm not sure this would be one anyhow.

[crate]

hexes are stupid powerful and if you think they aren't i really don't know what to say

[Davion Fuxa]

Having MR effect both chance of Hexes hitting you and how long they effect you when they succeed seems like it might be an okay idea. At least then if someone stupidly gets killed by Paralysis, it was due to not having enough MR to negate the Paralysis Timer while they were Paralyzed. This would be in comparison to Paralysis hitting the person and then they are Paralyzed to Insta-death regardless of whether they had uncanny MR or not.

I'm not sure how the formula would work for monsters if it was applied to them but for players it sounds like a decent secondary defense that would help with paralysis.

[Psieye]

Reduction of duration with high MR for Paralysis/Confusion/Petrification/Slow on the player makes sense (this'll also help out mummies where confusion is agonising death).

[pubby]

How about each attack against you has a chance to un-paralyze you? This would make it much less swingy.

[Steel Neuron]

How about partial paralysis? You can get your upper body paralyzed (you can only walk), lower body (immobile but can still attack and cast with penalties) only face (no drinking and spellcasting) etc.

It would imply making a list of actions that can be restricted and choosing a subset of them based on what sections of the body got paralyzed. Potential issues with non-antropomorphic races though (but easily solvable with a smaller set of possible paralysis states).

An extremely good roll or very low MR could lead to full paralysis but that would be rare.

Also, this could be used by monsters that specifically target certain areas of the body. In any case, partial paralysis would require the player to work around the situation creatively rather than watch his HP go down, which I agree with the OP is not much fun.

[siggboy]

you need to already be in a sort of bad position to not come out of paralysis alive. It has the highest unfairness potential in the game, but it's still all freak occurrences.

You just need to be in LOS to Grinder -- it's just like Erolcha banishing you as soon as you find her. Both happened to me once, and I really felt cheated at by the game. I don't want that, or else I'd play Nethack unspoiled.

Can't say much about the late-game, because of lack of experience. However, "freak occurence" is an understatement. It might be rare, but it does happen do get insta-killed by Paralysis; "thanks for wasting 8 hours of my time, Mr. Crawl" :-).

Oh, and lots of good ideas floating around in this thread -- I'm afraid I don't have much to add.