Brainstorm: Character class designed around enchanted gear

[danr]

This is a spin off of some various ideas I've had:
- Giving reavers daggers of flame / freezing instead of short swords
- Giving berserkers an amulet of rage instead of Trog
- Having a melee class that would start with a +2 weapon but no God (e.g. CK Makhleb with Makhleb removed.

There are precedents for starting backgrounds with enchanted gear - +2 weapons, +2 leather armour now for chaos knights, rods for artificers...

So I thought there was potential for designing a new class whose defining feature is not a spellbook or certain skill levels, but rather some starting equipment that is a bit more special.

So this is a brainstorming thread. I will put some limits on it: it has to be items that are already in the game, should not use skills or abilities that are not already in the game, and it should not be designed to be overpowered.

Some sample ideas:
- start with a chaos-branded knife, or a distortion-branded knife
- start with some jewellery, say +Inv or Regen
- start with 6 random potions (though this would promote start scumming)
- a cloak of darkness (I think that's what it's called)
- a dagger of returning
- a deck of something

[MrMisterMonkey]

Distortion is completely inappropriate for starting gear.
Invisibility is pretty inappropriate too, and shoehorns the class into stabbing (a kobold or some such starting with evokable invisibility would be crazy). Oh and Invis gear would fit best with assassins anyway (second-best with artificers).

If you want to give someone +2 weapons, why not gladiators?
If you want to give someone chaos, why not chaos knights?

[pratamawirya]

-2, -2 Falchion of Chaos --> for Chaos Knight

0, -4 Dagger of Venom --> for Assassin

[JeffQyzt]

I'm not sure what the rules are on Wanderer start equipment generation, but if you want to plop random play-changing stuff into a start-kit, I'd think that would be the place.

[danr]

Distortion is completely inappropriate for starting gear.
Invisibility is pretty inappropriate too, and shoehorns the class into stabbing (a kobold or some such starting with evokable invisibility would be crazy). Oh and Invis gear would fit best with assassins anyway (second-best with artificers).

If you want to give someone +2 weapons, why not gladiators?
If you want to give someone chaos, why not chaos knights?

MrMonkey, this is a brainstorming thread. You excel at pointing out what is wrong with people's ideas. That is not the point of brainstorming. If any concrete proposal comes out of this you will be more than welcome to cover it with poop and wet blankets, and then we can see if the finished idea stands up under that load.

I'm just throwing stuff out there. If you want to shoot everything down, fine, but it would be okay to actually contribute something as well.

I am not saying I want any of these things specifically, and none of these are fully formed ideas, but here are some responses to your points:

- Shoe horning is not a problem. Trog greatly shoehorns Berserkers into magicless melee play, and for berserkers this was given as a conclusive argument AGAINST my idea to open them up more by not using Trog.
- anything can be balanced. Distortion is powerful (although most people claim to hate it), but the weapon could be -9,-9, or the character could start with minimal HP and very low stats, no food, no armour - literally just the dagger.
- Considering your reaction to the basic idea, how do you think you would respond to giving a cool magical item to a class like a gladiator that is already well established and balanced? That approach would go nowhere. I intentionally made this about brainstorming a new class so it could avoid the resistance of trying to change an existing class. If you have suggestions for assassins or gladiators, start a topic about that. And you could do that without framing it as a flaw with my idea, you could just say that this thread got you thinking and you have some ideas of your own.

If you don't want to participate in the brainstorming, then you can ignore this thread. If you want to come in here just to piss on other's ideas and derail the brainstorming then I'll have to start invoking my mod powers on you.

So - all of that was off-topic, but I had to address the behaviour.

Now - any other NEW ideas or POSITIVE contributions?

e.g. If you don't think distortion would be a good idea (and I never claimed these were all good ideas), you could also say something like "I'm not sure about distortion, it's too powerful, but another brand could be doable - protection, antimagic, cold, etc."

[danr]

Dagger of distortion + teleportitis! You'd have yourself and monsters jumping all around the level!

That would probably be annoying as hell to play, but it might be sort of balanced in an interesting way.

So - cool gear could also be balanced by bad mutations. I know currently no backgrounds have mutations, but this is for anything-goes brainstorming, I just suggest that the ideas be doable in the sense that they use items and mechanics that are already in the game if anything coming out of here is to have a remote chance of being implemented.

[XuaXua]

Distortion is completely inappropriate for starting gear.

e.g. If you don't think distortion would be a good idea (and I never claimed these were all good ideas), you could also say something like "I'm not sure about distortion, it's too powerful, but another brand could be doable - protection, antimagic, cold, etc."

Distortion is dangerous to low level characters who won't be able to unwield without potentially super-dangerous, probably death-dealing side-effects, would be pretty much locked into using throwing (non blowgun) for ranged weaponry, and the distorted weapon needs to be edged or there will likely be starvation afoot.

That's not negativity, that's fact.

edit: written prior to you dagger of distortion response.

[danr]

Well, that would be one more way to balance it - make it a club or whip of distortion. You have a powerful weapon but it might kill you if you don't find enough permafood and you have to unwield it to eat. Spriggans would neatly sidestep that problem however.

But I don't want to get too obsessed on the distortion weapon idea, I'm looking for just a whole bunch of outrageously different ideas.

[danr]

It's not that I can't handle criticism - see how I responded in my thread about ideas for the Berserker class.

That was a specific proposal. Here I was just throwing out a whole bunch of ideas, and looking for the same from others.

In this case it's really more a matter of staying on topic. This is specifically for brainstorming completely new ideas for a new class. Shooting down brainstorming suggestions, and then saying that I should instead be suggesting changes to existing classes, adds nothing useful and just derails the discussion that the OP was looking for.

Back OT: Your brainstorm is an interesting one - basically a character that has a headstart on the ID game. Care to develop it further / give it some more flavour? It could be "The Librarian" or "Technician"?

[galehar]

Throwing ideas can be fun and sometimes you stumble into something great like that. But I don't think we need more backgrounds. With the recent changes, we have 29 backgrounds, and that's not counting reavers which might make a come back with a new spellbook. So if we want to reach the magic number, we should better think of removing backgrounds (<- offtopic, please discuss elsewhere).

[danr]

Okay. If new classes are not likely, then maybe we could talk about possibilities for giving enchanted equipment to existing classes, perhaps balanced by other things. So let's change the subject then.

Above, we already have the notion of chaos knights getting chaos weapons. It's a risky brand, but actually quite powerful too. IMO this would be better for Xom than the +2 leather armour - enchanted armour means protection and safety. A chaos weapon means crazy unpredictable melee which I think Xom would find amusing. A wand of random effects could go well with Xom too. And given how tough Wom is to play, having a weapon that confuses, paralyzes etc would not be too overpowered, you will still die humourously somewhere.

I've suggested elsewhere that reavers could have daggers of flame/ice - these are quite weak brands on daggers and the damage output would be similar to the short swords they currently get.

[danr]

Off-topic:

Also, here's a good "teachable moment" - notice how galehar was effectively criticizing the whole premise of the OP, but he did it in a way that did not get my hackles up:
- He starts by acknowledging something positive about my suggestion for discussion
- Then he states, in neutral terms, his opinion about a general principle. "I don't think we need more backgrounds" is much easier to take than the categorical and strongly worded "Your idea is completely inappropriate"
- Then he provides supporting facts for his opinion, not just more opinion
- Then he suggests a positive alternative (let's have a different discussion about removing backgrounds) in a way that is respectful of the OP's intent for this thread.

That made it easy to see the validity of his argument and to not get personal about it. So I saw his point, accepted it, and altered my position, instead of digging in my heels. That's how you Win Friends and Influence People ( Dale Carnegie 1937).

Sorry to get teachy, I know it probably comes across as insufferably patronizing, but I'm just trying to moderate as best I can. I'm happy to let someone else fill my shoes if I'm seen to be abusing my power.

[KoboldLord]

Giving existing fighter-type backgrounds equipment that they won't discard before they reach the Temple is currently on my personal wish list. The +0 hand axes and whatnot that fighters start with is very nearly the worst possible weapon of that weapon type in the game, and there is not a single thing on the equipment list of most of the non-magic backgrounds that they would even bother keeping in their stash in Lair 2, much less on their person. A caster's starting spellbook will define their playstyle for the majority of a 3-Rune run, but a non-caster is best served by replacing everything at the first possible opportunity.

[JeffQyzt]

Giving existing fighter-type backgrounds equipment that they won't discard before they reach the Temple is currently on my personal wish list. The +0 hand axes and whatnot that fighters start with is very nearly the worst possible weapon of that weapon type in the game, and there is not a single thing on the equipment list of most of the non-magic backgrounds that they would even bother keeping in their stash in Lair 2, much less on their person. A caster's starting spellbook will define their playstyle for the majority of a 3-Rune run, but a non-caster is best served by replacing everything at the first possible opportunity.

Counter examples that would frequently be kept at least until temple unless a lucky find is encountered:

• Shield
• Helmet
• Crossbow
• Trident
• Falchion (in trunk)
• Quarterstaff (in trunk)

[KoboldLord]

Counter examples that would frequently be kept at least until temple unless a lucky find is encountered:

Even if a caster gets a lucky find, they don't throw away their starting spellbook and never cast any spells from it ever again. If a fighter gets a lucky find, that old thing is instant trash.

[*]Shield

This is actually nice. Potentially. Shields for non-casters are only uncommon however, since there's no need to be picky between the three kinds, so it's more unlucky not to find one than lucky to find one.

[*]Helmet

That's ONE point of AC.

[*]Crossbow

Hunter is one of the two non-magic backgrounds that I like best, specifically because of the crossbow. The other one is assassin.

[*]Trident
[*]Falchion (in trunk)
[*]Quarterstaff (in trunk)

These are recent additions. I hold out some hope that this means that the fighter-style backgrounds are moving in the right direction. Certainly, D1 tridents and falchions haven't broken the game.

[Zicher]

[*]Helmet

That's ONE point of AC.

The ONE point that can save your ass in the early game.
Plus, it's a covered spot against early game jellies - they do hurt early and fighterish chars usually don't have many more options how to prevent them from devouring all of the level's stuff. Running away is an option of course - but that pretty much means you have to forfeit the whole level.

[galehar]

Giving existing fighter-type backgrounds equipment that they won't discard before they reach the Temple is currently on my personal wish list. The +0 hand axes and whatnot that fighters start with is very nearly the worst possible weapon of that weapon type in the game, and there is not a single thing on the equipment list of most of the non-magic backgrounds that they would even bother keeping in their stash in Lair 2, much less on their person. A caster's starting spellbook will define their playstyle for the majority of a 3-Rune run, but a non-caster is best served by replacing everything at the first possible opportunity.

I think what we need to do is reduce the base to_hit of the player (it's currently 15). Currently, accuracy bonus and accuracy penalties from big weapons and big AEVP penalties are ignored. If we reduce the base to_hit, that would make them more important and would force the player to rely more on his starting equipment and skills. We can easily balance it be giving enchanted gear or more skill to the backgrounds that need it. I can't crunch the numbers right now to make a real proposal, but I will someday.

[KoboldLord]

The ONE point that can save your ass in the early game.

One point of non-body armor AC will reduce a maximum of one hit point of damage. Half the time, it does literally nothing. There is no Guaranteed Damage Reduction for your other body slots. This AC only becomes moderately significant when you start adding it to all the other sources you've accumulated. Non-branded peripheral armor are primarily platforms to leverage excess scrolls of enchant armor, and now that heavy armor fighters can pump up their body armor better helmets and gloves and whatnot are actually much less important.

I think what we need to do is reduce the base to_hit of the player (it's currently 15).

Is it that bad? Ouch. That's up there with Nethack's to hit vs. AC issues.

[danr]

While the base to-hithc is 15, the typical starting fighter has something like another +5 to +7 from weapon skill, fighting ability and dex bonuses, so really, starting to_hit is in the 20 range.

That's why to_hit enchantment and penalties have much less effect than +dam. +1 relative to 20-25 is much smaller difference than +1 to base dam of 6 or 7.

[Zicher]

The ONE point that can save your ass in the early game.

One point of non-body armor AC will reduce a maximum of one hit point of damage.

It's probably my playstyle - but in the early game I tend to end up a fight with, say, 2/45 HP way too often. These are the times when that single point of extra-AC can prove as crucial to me.
Again - it's my playstyle and it's early game, so no quarrell with your experiences .

[danr]

I don't think you need too many levels of armour skill before a helmet / gloves gives you +2 AC. It seemed to happen pretty early with my last MDFi anyway.

[KoboldLord]

It's probably my playstyle - but in the early game I tend to end up a fight with, say, 2/45 HP way too often. These are the times when that single point of extra-AC can prove as crucial to me.
Again - it's my playstyle and it's early game, so no quarrell with your experiences .

Oh, I'm not going to claim that no helmet is better than a helmet. Having it is definitely better than not having it. I'm just saying that it isn't an immediate game-changer like access to Blink, access to some decent ranged attack, or a decent weapon upgrade.

I don't think you need too many levels of armour skill before a helmet / gloves gives you +2 AC. It seemed to happen pretty early with my last MDFi anyway.

I'm pretty sure armor skill doesn't do that. If it does, somebody should probably update henzell. Doesn't the bonus apply just to body armor, and not peripherals or shields?

[seth]

I don't think you need too many levels of armour skill before a helmet / gloves gives you +2 AC. It seemed to happen pretty early with my last MDFi anyway.

I'm pretty sure armor skill doesn't do that. If it does, somebody should probably update henzell. Doesn't the bonus apply just to body armor, and not peripherals or shields?

I just checked in wizard mode with a MDFi, a +0 helmet started giving 2 AC at skill level 19.

[danr]

That's weird, I don't think I had that many levels, but I guess I could have. I assume boots / gloves would do the same?

[JeffQyzt]

If you're talking the starting helmet, keep in mind that it's Dwarven quality, and hence raises your effective armor skill.