Species idea: Construct

[Steel Neuron]

With all the awesome concepts going on at the Crawl species list, I thought it would be cool to imagine an artificial creature in the roster. So here is my idea of how a Construct species would play. As always, think of it as fun brainstorming only. Also, keep in mind that the suggestions I make carry a bottomline: If by any chance the community found them really interesting, I wouldn't be asking people to code it, I would probably move my own butt and start working on it myself so I don't waste anyone's time (although it would probably take a while).

Construct

Constructs are artificial humanoid creatures, crafted by talented artificers. They may embark on an adventure following orders or by their own will, whether their emancipation was in good terms or the result of a violent upheaval. Their metallic bodies are strong, and their mechanical minds are as sharp and capable of understanding magic as that of any intelligent species. However, the magical energies fueling constructs aren't limitless, and they must keep them high by constantly absorbing energy from all sorts of enchanted items.

Summary of mechanics

• Undead-like resistances, with a twist.
  
  • They are resistant to negative energy, Poison and Torment. However, they don't have the Cold Resistance usual to undeads.
  • Constructs suffer extra damage from Lightning.
  • Mutation causes Rust instead, which is mechanically identical to Rot. Staying in water for extended periods of time, as well as heavy elemental damage may also cause Rust.
• Constructs don't need to breathe.
• Constructs can't eat or drink, and don't have a hunger clock.
• Constructs, like Vampires, have their own version of the food clock, called Charge. It reflects the reserves of magic powering their core, and is increased by absorbing energy from magic items, disenchanting them.
• There is a species-specific item, Blueprints, that Constructs may find in the dungeon and benefit from.

Construct Aptitudes

Keep in mind this is completely temporary, and possibly imbalanced. It is just meant to reflect the principles!

Air: 2, Armour: 2, Axes: 0, Bows: 0, Charms: 0, Conj: 2, Xbows: 1, Dodge: -1, Earth: 2, Evo: 4,
Exp: 150, Fighting: 1, Fire: 2, Hexes: -2, Ice: 2, Inv: -2, Long: 0, Maces: 0, Nec: -4, Poison: -2,
Polearms: 0, Shields: 0, Short: 0, Slings: 0, Splcast: 1, Stab: 0, Staves: 1, Stealth: -1, Summ: 0,
Throw: 0, Tloc: 1, Tmut: 0, Traps: 3, Unarmed: 1

Constructs are adept at spellcasting and excel at most forms of pure elemental magic, while dabbling at translocations. However, their lack of understanding and intuition when it comes to living beings makes them unsuited for the more "flesh and bones" arts such as Posion and Hexes. They are particularly inept at Necromancy. While Constructs are perfectly capable of worshipping a god, their mechanical approach to ritualistic endeavours isn't too well received. Although not too agile, they're competent warriors with decent armour and fighting aptitudes. They're good at Staves and Crossbows, by virtue of being the weapons that usually benefit from complicated mechanical designs, and they also enjoy hammering enemies with their bare metallic limbs. Anyway, the Constructs true excellence lies in their interaction with other magically enhanced items, thus their Evocations aptitude (the highest in the game) and their high intuition for dealing with traps.

Attributes and Level Bonuses

I don't have the game knowledge to make a balanced level-by-level list, so I will just mention general principles. Constructs should have reasonably high INT and STR, while falling behind in DEX. They should improve them both while leveling up, as well as gaining some MR on the side.

The Construct Clock: Charge

The Construct's particular hunger clock is called Charge, and has the following levels:

Overflowing
Very High
High
Charged (displays nothing)
Low
Very Low
Almost Empty
Discharged

In this aspect they're similar to Vampires: they can't die from their clock, but their gameplay will vary greatly depending on their position on it. In broad terms, the highest a Construct is in the tiers, the more adept at magic it will be, while sacrificing dexterity and precision. An Overflowing construct is living a magical nirvana, he zooms around carelessly displaying all sort of magical fireworks, waking everybody up. As you might imagine a well fed Construct isn't particularly stealthy. In the other extreme, a Discharged Construct is completely unable to do magic, but all of its security alarms are up and it becomes a precision machine. It gains bonuses to physical aptitudes such as accuracy and damage, as well as a dex increase.

Spells and other Hunger costs work normally on Charge, so the Construct must be careful and keep its spells well trained to avoid discharging itself too fast. Constructs do regenerate health. However, this is obviously not a product of natural processes, but rather their magical core reconstructing their damaged body. Therefore, exactly like Vampires, their regeneration lowers with their Charge. being unable to regenerate health when Discharged.

Here are the mechanics behind Charge:

• Numbering them from 0 to 8, the Charge levels affect the final amount of maximum Mana in the following way =0.2*N*Max_Mana. This means a Charged construct will have a normal amount of mana. When Overflowing, it would have 1.6 times as much, and while Discharged, no mana at all.
• While I'm not confident about numbers, Dexterity and Stealth should decrease as Charge goes up, while spell power and succes rate go up. Health Regeneration caps at Charged (normal value) and decreases until it reaches 0 at Discharged. The two extreme states (Overflowing and Discharged) have special mechanics that I'll list below:
  
  • Overflowing: An Overflowing Construct is literally radiating magic. It becomes completely unstealthy and easier to hit. Its unstable core leaks magic into the air, creating periodic elemental magic miscasts, either on yourself or in nearby monsters. Dexterity is at its lowest, but spellcasting enjoys its peak (significant bonuses to Mana, Spell Power and Success as explained before).
  • Discharged:A Discharged Construct keeps a low profile. Unable to cast spells, its whole body is attracted to magic like a silent moth to a candle. On this state it is completely impossible to cast any spells. Dexterity, accuracy and damage are enhanced, and it gains Stlth+. The Construct's body is so desperate for magic it may be wise to stay away from evocable items at this stage. There is a chance for Wands, Rods and other evocables to lose a random amount of their charges when activated, that will directly feed the Construct.

This is how Charge is obtained:
While resting on a tile occupied by items, pressing 'e' will drain all magic from them, feeding the Construct. Powerful items such as artifacts, as well as multiple items from the same tile will prompt the player. It is also possible to consume items in the Construct's inventory. Consumed items will revert to their +0/+0 vanilla form. Scrolls will become the defunct scrolls of paper, and wands will be destroyed (or replaced by a disenchanted wand). The most powerful items such as artifacts are easier to absorb and will be consumed in one turn, which may be advantageous in combat. Magic potions may also be consumed (this leaves out Potions of Water, Potions of Blood, Potions of Porridge... And any other non-magical concoctions.

Here is the nutrition (charge) gained from consumption:

1 level of enchantment = 100 charge (so a +3 /+3 dagger would be 600). Negative levels don't count.
1 Brand or Ego = around 2500.
1 Good Scroll = around 1000.
1 Good Potion = around 1000.
1 Wand = 500 per charge.
Rods = 1000 per MAX charge (the rod is destroyed).

Rods and artifacts are "easy to absorb" and are digested in one turn, unlike other items which may take longer.
Cursed items may cause instability, which is similar to Nausea in that you can't consume for a while, and you may get random miscasts similar to those in the Overflowing state.
Potions of Heal Wounds, Curing and Restore Abilities have a chance to reduce Rust (higher for Restore Abilities). This is the main way for a Construct to deal with Rust.

Species Item: Blueprints

Blueprints are book-like items specific to Constructs that may be found by any character through the game. Like Naga and Centaur Bardings, they will appear gray to any character of the wrong species. Blueprints may be found laying on the ground or at book stores. They are readable items that identify on first read. They work as follows:

The Blueprint title will identify the type of modification it can do on the construct. For instance, a Blueprint may be identified as "Sawblade". It will also contain a succint description of what the modification does, and a list of materials. The materials are similar to the Treasure Trove requirements. By gathering the necessary materials with the adequate enchantment levels, the Construct character may consume the blueprint and materials, imprinting a permanent modification on its body. These are powerful, build-defining changes that may alter anything from active abilities, to resistances, aptitudes, or wearable armour. Materials are items but could perhaps also be situations (can only be crafted while surrounded by lava, in deep water, on certain areas...). Please note that materials are not random. Things such as enchantment levels may be, but the general list of items is the same. This is to reward knowledgeable players who hold back on "eating" certain items, maximizing their chances to apply a certain blueprint if they find it.

Optional: At some levels the Construct could get a random Epiphany, which would be like an itemless Blueprint that he can activate at any point. Whether this is interesting or not is up to you. Would you rather keep this mechanic as blueprint-only?

Blueprints should be rare and a Construct should see between one and two per game, at most.

Here are some Blueprint examples, just for fun and a bit of flavour. This is the fun part of the construct so feel free to imagine any sort of wacky mechanics in here.:

Sawblade.

• Requirements: Artifact Long Blade, 7 branded Daggers.
• Effect: The Construct removes its left arm, substituting it with a chainsaw-like contraption. From then on he can only use one-handed items (similar to wearing a cursed shield) and gains a powerful auxiliary melee combat attack, that strikes a random number of times (up to 7). Each strike carries the brand effects of the corresponding dagger used in the Sawblade construction.

Core Exhaust.

• Requirements: 2*Disc of Storms, 2*Lamp of Fire.
• Effect: The Construct modifies its magical core, gaining the active ability "Discharge". Using it immediately reduces its Charge three levels (from Overflowing to Charged, for example) releasing extremely powerful cloud attacks in the vicinity.

Gold Plating.

• Requirements: Gold Dragon Hide, 5000 Gold.
• Effect: The Construct coats itself with pure, magically enhanced gold. It becomes immune to rust, receives +10 to AC and a passive chance to reflect spells back at the enemy.

Wrap up and justification

Someone said to me that it is important to put mechanics behind flavour, so as I wrap this up I wanted to add a small section to try and explain why Constructs could be a nice addition to the game aside from their flavour. Here are a list of the reasons why I think they fit the roster while not being redundant with the rest of the cast.

• High STR+INT species with low DEX are rare. STR is usually opposed to INT for most of the species design.
• There isn't a species which provides random evolution which requires player effort/confirmation. Species such as Demonspawn or Draconian are random, but the changes are imposed to the player. Construct would go a different route by offering a sort of "side-quest" to obtain a powerful modification when a blueprint is found.
• They have an aptitude layout quite different to the rest of the roster.
• They offer interesting dilemmas in playstyle. They're powerful spellcasters and specially evocators, but they depend on the very magic of their items to stay powerful. They can be played fully discharged, as a dangerous Overflowing spell machine or as a hybrid of both, exploiting the two extremes.
• They can be progressively implemented. The Construct concept could kick in with just the bare mechanics and a couple Blueprints, and keep on being expanded by people who want to add their own.

That was all. Thank you very much for reading. I have a lot of fun writing this sort of stuff, even if it just stays in the drawing board. I'm looking forward to your comments!

[BountyHunterSAx]

A more detailed post will have to wait for later. For the moment, color me intrigued. I will admit when I first started reading I balked at the idea as it seemed kind of a "We have mummies and vampires already, why bother with this?" But the idea of a charge-meter that builds on sacrificing all those 'junk' artifacts/runed weapons lying around the dungeon is awesome! Better still, sacrificing random runed daggers and such before ID'ing them may on occasion lead to the nasty surprise of sac'ing a -2/-1 cursed blade and getting hungrier. Or allowing an alternate use for enchant weapon I/II/III scrolls in a character who wishes to primarily be a mage.

I'm not as sure that I like the idea of tying it to ordinary hunger though. I'm on the fence about it at the very least - - seems to me it's a steep penalty to put on you for just walking around. The only other species in the game limited to "permafood only" is the spriggan, and it benefits from slow metabolism 3 and swiftness to mitigate the hunger increase of walking around. To be blunt, running around with this guy would feel like a slow walk to hell. Lugging around non-stackable items for food would hurt, and i definitely dont think he needs a speed boost or anything, hell i wouldn't be opposed to seeing him being a tad slower than average since he's a hulking machine.

I'd almost say don't penalize his energy for hunger, but penalize it for when he's using it. Using in this context would mean regenerating hp, regenerating mp, casting spells (mitigated by spellcasting), etc. But I haven't thought it through a lot, so we'll see.


-AHMAD

**EDIT**: Oh yeah, and he definitely should take increased damage from shatter, iron-shot, and OOD.

[Steel Neuron]

A more detailed post will have to wait for later. For the moment, color me intrigued. I will admit when I first started reading I balked at the idea as it seemed kind of a "We have mummies and vampires already, why bother with this?" But the idea of a charge-meter that builds on sacrificing all those 'junk' artifacts/runed weapons lying around the dungeon is awesome! Better still, sacrificing random runed daggers and such before ID'ing them may on occasion lead to the nasty surprise of sac'ing a -2/-1 cursed blade and getting hungrier. Or allowing an alternate use for enchant weapon I/II/III scrolls in a character who wishes to primarily be a mage.

I'm not as sure that I like the idea of tying it to ordinary hunger though. I'm on the fence about it at the very least - - seems to me it's a steep penalty to put on you for just walking around. The only other species in the game limited to "permafood only" is the spriggan, and it benefits from slow metabolism 3 and swiftness to mitigate the hunger increase of walking around. To be blunt, running around with this guy would feel like a slow walk to hell. Lugging around non-stackable items for food would hurt, and i definitely dont think he needs a speed boost or anything, hell i wouldn't be opposed to seeing him being a tad slower than average since he's a hulking machine.

I'd almost say don't penalize his energy for hunger, but penalize it for when he's using it. Using in this context would mean regenerating hp, regenerating mp, casting spells (mitigated by spellcasting), etc. But I haven't thought it through a lot, so we'll see.


-AHMAD

**EDIT**: Oh yeah, and he definitely should take increased damage from shatter, iron-shot, and OOD.

Thanks!

You might be right about Charge not being in its right place as a Hunger clock. However, I like how the Vampire works, and I thought it would be more intuitive to tie it to a mechanic that people are already familiar with.

The rate at which it is reduced is internal to the game mechanics and could very well work the way you described.

About increased damage from Shatter and the like, he could indeed have special interactions with many game mechanics, given that he's made of metal, but I can't realistically think of them all, and I guess they're not crucial for a first prototype.

[XuaXua]

Search the tavern and the developer wiki for the Golem race.

[BountyHunterSAx]

It's just . . . as written he seems more powerful than a vampire. No, I take that back. I keep thinking he's got hungerless casting when really nothing could be further from the truth. It *looks* like he has hungerless casting, until you look closer and realize that if he taps out his hunger he doesn't even have enough MP for escape-spells, let alone blaster spells.

Also, I may have underestimated quite how many runed items are available to be sacrificed, especially if you make a detour into orc early on. . . If each gave banana to honeycomb level satiation, and you manage to have all your spells nearly-hungerless, that should really fix your game till Lair is clear at least.

I will say this though, ziggurat-raiding with this guy would be absolutely SICK. Sac'ing 3-5 artifacts per floor means you're always overflowing. You have a mana-pool of 65 by default along with torment resist and no extra damage from holy. If you manage to get a couple nice blueprints going you might just be inherently AC-boosted. Yeah, sounds liek a blast .

-AHMAD

[Davion Fuxa]

Will he be able to Quaff Potions or would he be more like a Mummy? (in that since he's a construct, Potions don't have an effect on him)
What size might the Construct me, would he be living it Large like on the Golems are, or might he be smaller?
When leveling up, maybe stats should only increase every 3 levels?

[Steel Neuron]

Search the tavern and the developer wiki for the Golem race.

Thanks! Just did that. I had searched for Construct, but it didn't occur to me to search for Golem. I see that some of the concepts here have been explored. That's good, it means people have some interest in similar stuff!

I think my Construct is sufficiently unique to warrant some discussion, mostly because of the Blueprints mechanic and the Charge clock itself.

Will he be able to Quaff Potions or would he be more like a Mummy? (in that since he's a construct, Potions don't have an effect on him)
What size might the Construct me, would he be living it Large like on the Golems are, or might he be smaller?
When leveling up, maybe stats should only increase every 3 levels?

No, he can't Quaff potions at all, like a Mummy. I thought of giving the potions an alternate use (joint lubrication?) but it would be far too gimmicky. Potions could be used as materials for Blueprints, though, but I don't like the prospect of making the player collect items that he wasn't supposed to touch, back to dungeon 1, to satisfy a checklist. Blueprint materials should be like Treasure Trove requirements in that they're hard to find/craft, not just tedious to collect.

The Construct is human-sized. I don't picture it as a lumbering, massive golem but rather a "clockwork-esque" humanoid. Think Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz or Orianna from League of Legends, as an example: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TsGMDFr0LXQ/Tqo3tTUFQMI/AAAAAAAABGQ/q31jpxulvcI/s1600/Orianna_OriginalSkin_Ch.jpg

About stats on level up, that sounds good, but again I don't really know how to balance that. Maybe he could get AC every few levels or a base boost, being made of metal and all.

[blackcustard]

Blueprints:
Being forced to pick up a bunch of crap like artifact swords and daggers is stupid. I assume you are trying to create tension here with the blueprints mechanic: between consuming magical items and saving them for blueprints. In that case the materials would have to be valuable. But then if the items required by the blueprints are randomly selected and you only find one or two blueprints a game, what materials would you save? I could save 15 immolation scrolls all game and then find a blueprint that required 15 wands of fire or something. That sucks. Also, you say you want "player effort/confirmation". Right now, with those three blueprints you suggested, "effort" is running around to grab crap, and "confirmation" is "well, obviously I would prefer to have the discharge ability over not having it". This could be cool, but it needs some more work.

Charge:
I'm not entirely sure I see the point here. So you can be bashy or casty or a hybrid, just like normal. In what situations would a construct that usually plays charged/discharged want to play the other way? If you've trained your GSC all game to the exclusion of magic, becoming charged is probably not a good idea, so the "clock" is irrelevant. And likewise, if you've trained magic, being discharged is not a good idea, so you would only stop charging before easy areas and save your wands to munch on before hard ones. Maybe the miscast chance would compel true hybrids to try to keep their charge clocks right in the middle, but wouldn't that just be annoying?

On the other hand, a food clock based on items that are actually useful is a little bit cool.

Rust:
Mummies have a built in ability to cure rot, because they have no potions to drink. Did you forget to give constructs a comparable ability or is this supposed to be permanent HP damage?

[Steel Neuron]

Blueprints:
Being forced to pick up a bunch of crap like artifact swords and daggers is stupid. I assume you are trying to create tension here with the blueprints mechanic: between consuming magical items and saving them for blueprints. In that case the materials would have to be valuable. But then if the items required by the blueprints are randomly selected and you only find one or two blueprints a game, what materials would you save? I could save 15 immolation scrolls all game and then find a blueprint that required 15 wands of fire or something. That sucks. Also, you say you want "player effort/confirmation". Right now, with those three blueprints you suggested, "effort" is running around to grab crap, and "confirmation" is "well, obviously I would prefer to have the discharge ability over not having it". This could be cool, but it needs some more work.

Yes, tension was the idea. If someone really really wants a particular blueprint, they will be careful to avoid consuming the specific items required, specially since (in principle) the materials aren't random (only things like the required enchantment level should be).

I don't see anything particularly wrong with running around to grab a small amount of crap. The point is not forcing the player to pick up 20 potions of curing or something stupid that will have him cruising around explored parts of the dungeon. perhaps my example of 10 scrolls of immolation was bad in that regard, I will try and change it. What I mean with effort is that some materials should require active exploration to be found, or in other words: Small amount of rare/powerful items = good. High number of bad/common items = bad. For instance, a Construct that gets a blueprint requiring certain weapons is more likely to clear Blade, and one trying to get the gold plating will have to hunt for gold dragons.

With confirmation I simply mean the act of deciding whether or not the modification fits your playstyle, and if you're willing to spend the materials to get it. Ideally they would all have their drawbacks so while desirable, shouldn't be a no-brainer. You're right in saying that having Discharge is better than not having it, but I imagine several Construct builds wouldn't want to be using it at all (dropping three levels of Charge at once is not good) so people may stay away from that one altogether. On the examples I used, Gold Plating is the only one with no drawbacks for a reason: It requires copious amounts of gold which are useful for all builds. The idea is to make the player scratch his/her head when a blueprint drops, at least a little.

Charge:
I'm not entirely sure I see the point here. So you can be bashy or casty or a hybrid, just like normal. In what situations would a construct that usually plays charged/discharged want to play the other way? If you've trained your GSC all game to the exclusion of magic, becoming charged is probably not a good idea, so the "clock" is irrelevant. And likewise, if you've trained magic, being discharged is not a good idea, so we only do that for very easy areas and save our wands for hard ones. Maybe the miscast chance would compel true hybrids to try to keep their charge clocks right in the middle, but wouldn't that just be annoying?

I know there isn't much point in comparing but many of your concerns can be applied to Vampires. Unless you need the regeneration, it is most often best to play Bloodless. Similarly, the Charged value is not so much a clock but a species mechanic that happens to be tied to hunger to make it more intuitive, just like Vampires do.

I believe there is a point in deviating from your common state. A magic-focused construct could need the stealth temporarily, or he may want to tone down to avoid low DEX related issues. Other than that, for heavily magic-focused Constructs, losing charge is bad and they should keep it high (nothing wrong with that). Overflowing is a dangerous state, sort of like a magical Berserker mechanic, so most players wouldn't want to stay in it permanently.

The Clock is not irrelevant at all for non-magical constructs, because of health regeneration, and evocables. A Discharged Construct, even though peaks in combat efficiency, can't regenerate and can't comfortably evoke wands and rods (remember that doing so will suck charges to auto-feed) therefore the clock is relevant from then too. They still have to keep enough charge to be able to function. Staying around Low and Very Low to have at least basic regeneration, and occasionally dipping into Discharged for the extra stealth and deadliness sounds like a fine strategy.

True hybrids should indeed keep their charge in the middle, but I don't see how that is annoying. I like it and I tried to deliberately make it that way. Consuming unidentified items is a unique form of feeding in that it's inherently hard to control, so keeping charge levels at a sweetspot should be tricky, separating good from bad players.

Last, there are many possible combinations that could arise from Blueprints. Perhaps certain blueprints would make quick switch from high to low charged states more powerful through their own mechanics.

On the other hand, a food clock based on items that are actually useful is a little bit cool.

Thanks! Some people seem to have come up with the same idea in the Golem concepts too. I think it's great, specially considering a species that interacts with magical items in other ways (high EVO, blueprints) which increases tension and requires correct choices.

Rust:
Mummies have a built in ability to cure rot, because they have no potions to drink. Did you forget to give constructs a comparable ability or is this supposed to be permanent HP damage?

My bad, I did forget that. I guess I could tie rust removal with consuming a certain type of item. Any ideas?

[Steel Neuron]

Quick edit to the OP: I changed the material requirements on Core Exhaust (now 2*Disc of Storms rather than 10*Scroll of Immolation) to make it clear that I don't want it rewarding tedious backtracking to pick up junk items, but rather the sacrifice of powerful, hard to find stuff. I also made it more clear than materials aren't random, so a knowledgeable player may want to hold back on consuming certain items to maximize the chance to apply blueprints, also increasing tension.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I didn't realize that constructs could neither drink nor discharge pots. . . so potions are 100% useless to them? Let's say they can discharge cure/wound/restore abilities pots to cure one point of rust and one stat point in each category. So no rapid way to raise all your stat-drain back to maximum, but it's easy enough in the postendgame to carry a stack of cure-pots around so as to not fear stat-death.

-AHMAD

[Steel Neuron]

Yeah, I guess consuming a limited subset of potions to cure rust is fine. They definitely need a way to deal with Rust and this sounds reasonable. Everyone fine with that?

EDIT': Updated the OP about potion consumption. Now most potions can be absorbed (NOT quaffed) for Charge gain. Potions of HW, Curing and RA carry a chance to remove Rust.

[Tenaya]

With all the awesome concepts going on at the Crawl species list, I thought it would be cool to imagine an artificial creature in the roster. So here is my idea of how a Construct species would play. As always, think of it as fun brainstorming only. Also, keep in mind that the suggestions I make carry a bottomline: If by any chance the community found them really interesting, I wouldn't be asking people to code it, I would probably move my own butt and start working on it myself so I don't waste anyone's time (although it would probably take a while).

Constructs are artificial humanoid creatures, crafted by talented artificers. They may embark on an adventure following orders or by their own will, whether their emancipation was in good terms or the result of a violent upheaval. Their metallic bodies are strong, and their mechanical minds are as sharp and capable of understanding magic as that of any intelligent species. However, the magical energies fueling constructs aren't limitless, and they must keep them high by constantly absorbing energy from all sorts of enchanted items.
That was all. Thank you very much for reading. I have a lot of fun writing this sort of stuff, even if it just stays in the drawing board. I'm looking forward to your comments!

Thanks for coming up with this. It is similar to what I had been thinking about. I haven't had much time to learn how to code, so it has been slow going and I've been trying to work with the 0.9 patch work. I've been playing around with some existing species and examining how well their aptitudes function as is.
In brief:
1) I thought of the golem/construct as an artifical being, rather like a remote-controlled robot sent into the dungeon to retrieve the Orb. Without this, unless golems are somehow sentient, then I don't see how they can worship a diety.
2) They should be bad at Spellcasting but good at elemental magics. Flavour-wise this is because they are slow to learn but are creatures of elements (i.e. air and water in their veins, fire is their engine, earth is their body). Gameplay-wise, there seems to be room for a good at all elemental magics but bad at spellcasting. Ghouls and Hill Orcs fit this modestly, but it would be interesting for one species to be able to do any elemental magic, I think.
3) Yes for some method of charging up from magic items. At first I thought it would be appropriate to use non-magical items to reconstruct the body (i.e. hp) and magic to repair charge (i.e. mp) but I thought it best to avoid Nemelex-vacuuming and Slow Healing:3 is Deep Dwarves only (or so I hear). the other issue is that late dungeon clutter may someday be pre-vacuumed prior to the adventurer seeing it so it would be best to not go down that road.

Thanks again. I'll dust off my play and patch notes.

[Steel Neuron]

Thanks for coming up with this. It is similar to what I had been thinking about. I haven't had much time to learn how to code, so it has been slow going and I've been trying to work with the 0.9 patch work. I've been playing around with some existing species and examining how well their aptitudes function as is.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and it's nice to hear we have ideas in common!

In brief:
1) I thought of the golem/construct as an artifical being, rather like a remote-controlled robot sent into the dungeon to retrieve the Orb. Without this, unless golems are somehow sentient, then I don't see how they can worship a diety.

I agree on that. In my concept, they are always sentient. Whether or not they're doing what they do out of their own interest or external influence / orders is another matter. In fact, I find it very flavourful and charming to imagine a Construct holding its own religious beliefs in secret; doing its best to please its master but keeping that area of intimacy.

2) They should be bad at Spellcasting but good at elemental magics. Flavour-wise this is because they are slow to learn but are creatures of elements (i.e. air and water in their veins, fire is their engine, earth is their body). Gameplay-wise, there seems to be room for a good at all elemental magics but bad at spellcasting. Ghouls and Hill Orcs fit this modestly, but it would be interesting for one species to be able to do any elemental magic, I think.

I agree about the motives behind elemental magic, although I'd rather see them good at spellcasting, because I see them as being highly intelligent beings. I'd prefer to see that "clumsiness" relegated to their Dex, reflecting their awkward, mechanical movements instead.

3) Yes for some method of charging up from magic items. At first I thought it would be appropriate to use non-magical items to reconstruct the body (i.e. hp) and magic to repair charge (i.e. mp) but I thought it best to avoid Nemelex-vacuuming and Slow Healing:3 is Deep Dwarves only (or so I hear). the other issue is that late dungeon clutter may someday be pre-vacuumed prior to the adventurer seeing it so it would be best to not go down that road.

Thanks again. I'll dust off my play and patch notes.

Good luck, and keep me informed!

[XuaXua]

Instead of blueprints, how about an increasing number (based on level) of extra wield slots? If you put something in the slot (a given artifact), the construct benefits from the abilities inherient in the artifact. The item either cannot be removed from the slot once occupied, or it is destroyed on removal. Gains a slot every 3 levels; takes 2 slots for a 2-handed weapon or an armour. Does not count as "wearing" the armour, so no AC gain/ev penalty unless it is an enhancement to the item, but would gain any resistances. Weapons applied in this way cannot be used for attacking.

[Steel Neuron]

Instead of blueprints, how about an increasing number (based on level) of extra wield slots? If you put something in the slot (a given artifact), the construct benefits from the abilities inherient in the artifact. The item either cannot be removed from the slot once occupied, or it is destroyed on removal. Gains a slot every 3 levels; takes 2 slots for a 2-handed weapon or an armour. Does not count as "wearing" the armour, so no AC gain/ev penalty unless it is an enhancement to the item, but would gain any resistances. Weapons applied in this way cannot be used for attacking.

How would this work in terms of flavour? To me, it seems that you're talking about "melding" the stuff with the Construct body. I think that would work well on a Golem concept, but again, that's not what I have in mind. This species is more of a mechanical clockwork construct, I don't imagine sticking weapons and armour to it as in line with the theme.

Also it seems to me that capping all resistances would be trivial this way, while having no drawbacks whatsoever. It would be just about finding the beefiest artifact and sticking it to your body, which I don't really like.

Anyway, any particular reason why you don't like blueprints? I don't mind criticism on them (In fact I'm expecting it!) but an "instead of blueprints [...]" out of the blue makes me think that you dislike them but I don't really know why.

[XuaXua]

Anyway, any particular reason why you don't like blueprints? I don't mind criticism on them (In fact I'm expecting it!) but an "instead of blueprints [...]" out of the blue makes me think that you dislike them but I don't really know why.

Centaur and Naga barding aside (which I think should be viable for either), I'm not a fan of adding slightly-more-common-than-barding items to the game that have absolutely no relevance or use to any race but one.

[Steel Neuron]

Anyway, any particular reason why you don't like blueprints? I don't mind criticism on them (In fact I'm expecting it!) but an "instead of blueprints [...]" out of the blue makes me think that you dislike them but I don't really know why.

Centaur and Naga barding aside (which I think should be viable for either), I'm not a fan of adding slightly-more-common-than-barding items to the game that have absolutely no relevance or use to any race but one.

I understand. Maybe you'd prefer the "epiphany" approach to Blueprints then? For instance, at two random levels per game, the Construct gets a random Epiphany, which is like an itemless blueprint. He just figures out changes he could make to his own body, and materials he would need.

I think the blueprint approach is more exciting, and that players are used to skimming over items that have no relevance to them anyway, but I could see it working either way.

[XuaXua]

Now all you've done is make me want a god of body-modification. Non-jiyva.

[Bomanz]

Would be cool/funny if the construct would store his inventory inside the cavity of his chest, giving him native potion and scroll destruction protection. Like bender from futurama. Hope I didn't derail too badly.

[Sporkman]

Honestly, I'm not the best person to talk to about balance, but this at least appears to be interesting. The concept's still rough, but I could see some sort of steampunk/magitek as something of a new experience race-wise.

Now all you've done is make me want a god of body-modification. Non-jiyva.

This actually sounds interesting... might make a thread on that.

[Steel Neuron]

Honestly, I'm not the best person to talk to about balance, but this at least appears to be interesting. The concept's still rough, but I could see some sort of steampunk/magitek as something of a new experience race-wise.

Now all you've done is make me want a god of body-modification. Non-jiyva.

This actually sounds interesting... might make a thread on that.

Thanks!

I'm wondering how to interpret the lack of blue-named responses in here, as they're usually the hardest sources of criticism (nothing wrong with that). It may be lack of interest, or the fact that they don't find the concept all that horrible.

Any more opinions?

[Galefury]

Your first post is really long so I don't want to read it. Sorry.

I read the first two paragraphs, and it sounds a lot like one of the many earlier golem suggestions (golem 3 on the wiki). Someone even coded that one, and nothing came of it. I don't know where that leaves your idea. IIRC people didn't universally hate the idea of eating magical items, but there was a lot of criticism. As Nemelex shows, the vacuum cleaner playstyle can get annoying. You will have to dig out the other golem threads yourself if you are interested in the discussion, there was really a lot of it back then. This might also contribute to the limited number of responses to your proposal. A lot of people are very tired of talking about golems.

Regarding species proposals in general, writing something like the species descriptions in the crawl manual might be useful. If even the person who came up with the species cant explain it concisely, it's probably too complicated. You can fill in the details in a second post or something.

[Steel Neuron]

Your first post is really long so I don't want to read it. Sorry.

I read the first two paragraphs, and it sounds a lot like one of the many earlier golem suggestions (golem 3 on the wiki). Someone even coded that one, and nothing came of it. I don't know where that leaves your idea. IIRC people didn't universally hate the idea of eating magical items, but there was a lot of criticism. As Nemelex shows, the vacuum cleaner playstyle can get annoying. You will have to dig out the other golem threads yourself if you are interested in the discussion, there was really a lot of it back then. This might also contribute to the limited number of responses to your proposal. A lot of people are very tired of talking about golems.

Regarding species proposals in general, writing something like the species descriptions in the crawl manual might be useful. If even the person who came up with the species cant explain it concisely, it's probably too complicated. You can fill in the details in a second post or something.

Fair enough, I will find some time to write a TL;DR.

I agree that this species overlaps with the golem ideas in the wiki, even though from a flavour perspective it's not meant to be the same (human sized clockwork construct VS lumbering animated mass of a given material) but hey, I can go with that.

If there is something I would like to salvage from my proposal is the Blueprints mechanic (I'd appreciate if you read that section). Perhaps something could be made out of it? Some people have talked about a god of voluntary body modification. I'd be all in for a "cyberpunk" god (of course with huge semicolons because that doesn't fit the DCSS setting in any way). Do you think going in that direction could be more innovative?

[galehar]

I agree that this species overlaps with the golem ideas in the wiki, even though from a flavour perspective it's not meant to be the same

And I think golems fit crawl's universe much better than constructs. Crawl isn't very steam-punky, and there is almost nothing mechanical. Golems on the other hand are existing monsters. Also, in my book a construct is at least partially organic, not just mechanical, but I guess it depends on settings (I read Girl Genius).
So, the idea of a non-living is interesting, but it's better served by golems. And even then, it overlaps a lot with undead, especially mummy (they share most of undead resists, no eating and no potions). Differentiation from mummies was hard during the golem brainstorming period and the potion restriction in particular was a problem.

Some people have talked about a god of voluntary body modification.

Jiyva.

[Galefury]

About blueprints: tracking down a bunch of parts with ctrl-f doesn't sound very interesting to me.

Trove fees require some investment, and are not usually made out of junk you just find. They are either useful resources by themselves (scrolls, potions), require the use of useful resources (like enchant scrolls or gold), or require you to take a risk that is not usually necessary (horn, runes). This can also be done for blueprint ingredients of course, but at that point they just end up being spoilier (and more frequent) troves. I don't think crawl would benefit from that. Also you mention that they would reward players who know all the recipes and know what items may have a use in a blueprint later on. That is generally considered bad.

The god of body modification niche is pretty much filled by Jiyva Of course there is some other stuff that could be done. But I think it's very difficult to come up with a really solid and fun concept.

[Psieye]

To me, the blueprints part was the least interesting aspect of this species proposal. The food clock was what kept me reading. What you mean by "body modification" is "more radical mutations, which may change my equipment slot availability - e.g. I lose an arm". I don't think crawl wants that and "lighter body modifications" is Jiyva as has been repeatedly pointed out.

IIRC people didn't universally hate the idea of eating magical items, but there was a lot of criticism. As Nemelex shows, the vacuum cleaner playstyle can get annoying.

As an offhand thought, this would automatically be solved if there was no ceiling to the golem "food clock". The idea would be "all these items that you can't use anyway, automatically get destroyed to add to your food clock". I'm not attached enough to the idea to do research on what had been discussed before, so ignore if it came up in the past.

[Golden_Eye]

I agree that this species overlaps with the golem ideas in the wiki, even though from a flavour perspective it's not meant to be the same

And I think golems fit crawl's universe much better than constructs.

In most D&D-derived games including Crawl, golems are constructs...

Indeed. But with the blueprint idea, seems to me the "race" would weigh more towards the android/engineer type, witch I dislike for crawl. Golems are mindless and magically fueled, so the eating magic thing make sense with them. The blueprint, however, doesn't fit. As well as the high intel. As it is, this concept is unclear. It is going in too many directions.

My take on this :

Name : Golem
Stats : Low Intel, Good AC, High Strength, Low EV, Slow
Consume magic : Yes
Blueprint : No
Epiphany : No (At it's root, this is a mystical/religious term (meaning insight through the divine). I am not totally against it, but let's say more no than yes.)
Religion : Due to their nature, Golems can't grasp religion and therefore can't worship.
Extra wield-slots : Yes. This is interesting and on the spot flavor-wise. The question of "how many" is one of game balance.

Optional :

Limb construction : By consuming their extra slots, Golems can build new limbs (...to be seen as a take on blueprints). Extra legs can give speed (wear boots if you have a pair), arms can wield shield and weapons (gloves if you have a pair), heads can wear helmets and give you see invis or fire/acid/cold breath (who wouldn't want extra heads ?), torso can give AC and HP, etc... Objects in the consumed slots are, well, consumed (...it would be interesting if the new limb would reflect what was inside when made, but I might be delirious here). Hmmm...balance again.

My 2 cents anyway : )


Edit : ...arms can wield shield and weapons : NO. Scratch optional. Silly anyway.

[byrel]

I had thought multi-wielding was on the list of things never to happen in crawl.

[Golden_Eye]

I had thought multi-wielding was on the list of things never to happen in crawl.

Make sense. I guess I should have read the Guidelines for Game Design before submitting. Got carried away at the end there. Will edit my post. Thanks.

[mattlistener]

I like the idea and hope something comes of it! Two thoughts:

When on the "Hungry" end of the clock, evoking a deck of cards (or activating a card via a Nemelex-granted ability) should have a chance to consume the card instead, adding to the player's charge level. "Chance" becomes "certainty" at Almost Empty, perhaps with a chance of consuming multiple cards.

Otherwise there'd be pure melee Constructs of Nemelex enjoying the benefits of no food clock, "Dexterity, accuracy and damage are enhanced, and Stlth+," and hungerless use of evocables, while using decks and +4 Evo apt for all their casting needs.


A fix for the "save everything just in case" problem of blueprints might be, have it be an eating requirement, and keep track of everything the golem has ever eaten. Then if they're lucky they already qualify when a blueprint becomes available, and otherwise probably have partial progress they can work toward.

[Daggtex]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this when searching for similar ideas. I just posted a similar proposal for Automatons. I totally support the idea (though I prefer it to be less magical), and probably have some ideas for it that could be useful/interesting in my proposal. Hope something good come out of it!

[khalil]

Personally, I hope this works out. I like the idea of a caster forced to eat his own staff/robe in order to continue casting.
As far as the blueprints go, I'm all right so long as the items have at least some use to a construct. For example, none of them should require food or potions.

[and into]

Whether we call them "constructs" or "golems" doesn't matter too much, and flavor can be tweaked to make it better fit in with Crawl's aesthetic.

There are two interesting and unique mechanics here, I think: 1.) Eating enchantments off items, combined with a tiered food clock that alters game mechanics rather than just making you hit a couple of keys occasionally to avoid starving; 2.) the whole blueprint thing. Both of them have problems, though, in terms of item management and interface, as others have pointed out.

Also, taking vampires as an example, tiered food clocks can be finicky. I think vampires work reasonably well, but in part that's because in practice you pretty much always want to stay at very thirsty or near bloodless, even though there are (on paper) certain unique advantages for being highly satiated as vampires. If it were more often advantageous to switch from near bloodless to Alive status, vampires would be much more obnoxious to play. (Even as it is they can be a bit obnoxious to play—and this is coming from someone who really likes to roll VpEn from time to time.)

I feel like there's some potential here, but there are some problems that would need to be solved first, to ensure the species is enjoyable to play, before questions of balance come into play.

In general I think a better way to approach species design is to _start_ by asking, "What _constraints_ on gameplay would be interesting?", rather than, "Wouldn't it be cool if a species could eat artifacts?"

Nagas are interesting because slow movement makes you play very differently and think outside the box. Nagas are powerful thanks to all their helpful intrinsic traits that make up for their slow movement, but it is (IMO) the slow movement that makes them _interesting_.

So maybe a good place to go (and help differentiate your construct proposal) would be to ask, "What unique constraints might this species have?" I was thinking that a species that cannot use charms spells would be interesting, because charms are extremely powerful, but for that reason they used by damn near EVERY non-Trog character who survives long enough to find a couple of books, and thus quickly become rote, boring, normal. And, if constructs couldn't use any charm spells, you could probably experiment with a lot with powerful intrinsic abilities without them becoming ridiculously overpowered. Make them unable to get any form of haste, in addition, I'd say. (This could be easily rationalized by saying that casting charms and haste of any form interferes with their constructed nature and "magical core.")

Now that I think of it, just making constructs immune to all magical effects (except banishment)—which kind of mirrors the constructs already in the game—plus no charms, and the unique potion mechanic that's already been suggested (probably with guaranteed mutation resistance—mutation causes rust instead) would be a great starting point for a golem/construct species, in my opinion.

[archaeo]

One thing I note from the Golem page on the wiki is that it's all focused on the concept as a player race. I mean, a playable golem might be fun, but what about a background or god that allowed you to make your own golem? Crawl has several strong ally builds, but none that involves a single permanent pet.

Whether it's a god or a background, you can construct a golem by assembling a set of equipment, with quality of the initial golem dependent on materials and evocations skill. You improve the golem by feeding it more equipment, with some evocations-based formula for effectiveness. You could even feed it wands or books for a chance at teaching the golem a spell, or feed it rings for resistances. Maybe for balance, it would be unable to heal except by sacrificing max HP, or by feeding it permafood or something. If it was a background, it could start with some new evocable-based item that served as a golem seed, but I think that would be too powerful. A god (ROBOTS FOR THE ROBOT GOD) would at least restrict this more, but I'm not sure what the appetite is for more gods.

On the plus side, this would create a new mechanic that encourages a different play style, and it also enables an ally-based build that doesn't completely fall apart in extended. I think it would be kind of nice to have a single ally that you take through the game.

Of course, this encourages things like scumming for equipment and may be too unbalanced (there's probably a reason ally-based builds aren't suitable for extended). It would be easier to balance as a species mechanic; make it some kind of gnome or other artificer-heavy race, give it terrible stats and -20% HP so that it has to rely on the golem. But then people would hate it.

So now I've talked myself into understanding why this idea hasn't been brought up constantly.

[and into]

Of course, this encourages things like scumming for equipment and may be too unbalanced (there's probably a reason ally-based builds aren't suitable for extended). It would be easier to balance as a species mechanic; make it some kind of gnome or other artificer-heavy race, give it terrible stats and -20% HP so that it has to rely on the golem. But then people would hate it.

Well, there are scrolls of summoning, but I get that's not what you had in mind. Yred and Beogh give you multiple allies in a different way, but Yred's spectral enslavement thingy is pretty close to what you are talking about, so there is some precedence for something like a single, strong, upgradeable and permanent (until it is destroyed) ally.

In the abstract I like the idea of a gnome and golem, but it would have to be fleshed out more. I don't see that working as a background, because backgrounds should only involve things that any, or nearly any, character could get; starting Beogh and to a lesser extent Lugonu are semi-exceptions. But a religion, possibly a species, or even a very rare consumable (that can spawn only once per game) may be options.

I know several developers have at one point or another expressed interest in trying to implement a "player and pet" sort of play-style, but I think they've come up against similar problems to the ones that you yourself ran into.

[Matanui3]

We don't need ANOTHER species-specific item.
I already have a hard enough time finding bardings when I want them, and finding them on any of the many other races is dumb and frustrating (not to mention finding a Naga barding as a Centaur and vice versa).