Uses for a Scroll of Vorpalization

[XuaXua]

Outside of applying them to ranged weapons, I don't see the use of scrolls of vorpalization. Theyre rare enough thattheycan be accidentally blown through scroll id in case you forget to weild thatone weapkn you want vorpalized (and cast any appproprite spell beforehand, just in case).
Usually you've found the pre-branded weapon you want to use for the rest of the game by the time you have the scroll, or you're shooting for TSO or Kiku or Lugonu to brand it.

Does anyone use these regularly outside of velocity?

[Davion Fuxa]

The one time I went to use Scroll of Vorpalization to brand a weapon with Frost, i made the mistake of canceling it because I didn't want to harm my allies - thus losing the scroll. That was on my TrDK using Mace & Flail Weaponry and my Eveningstar had no brand and regularly wore Golden Dragon Armor. Outside of that I simply don't use them because:

A) I've found an Artefact Weapon or a Branded Weapon that is worth using for the endgame
B) I Scroll-ID them, or never find one in a game due to rarity - in which case I don't have it to use
C) The character for which I'm playing really had no real use of weapons - be it because its Felid, a Spell-focused character, or just an Unarmed Combat Specialist.

[Sar]

Well, if I don't follow a gifting god, and want to use a good two-hander, and I find an unbranded one, then sure, I'll brand it. You can affix flaming/freezing with vorpal.

Edit: my last character, MiJr, vorpalized his great mace with freeze.

[BlackSheep]

If I'm not following a weapon gifting/branding god, yes I'll seek out and use a ?vorpal. The top-tier weapons are rare enough, and recasting brand spells is annoying enough, that I want to affix a brand if the opportunity presents itself.

[XuaXua]

I feel they could be enhanced by allowing other abilities besides basic brands to be applied, or creating artifacts, or even allowing existing branded weapons or artefacts to be rebranded completely.

[dpeg]

XuaXua: Absolutely. There's a lot of untapped potential within Vorpalising. It's just that nobody ever come up with a concept and some good ideas.

[rchandra]

my OgNes routinely brand their GSCs with draining - in fact I make sure to always have lethal infusion on when reading unknown scrolls past the first few floors.

[XuaXua]

I knew I asked this before, but forgot. I mentioned revising Vorpalization scrolls, but didn't really come up with a good idea.

[Bim]

I have to agree, I've only ever used this once on a highly enchanted longbow. I've never needed it as by the time I've id'd it I've normally got a randart (or art) or I've got a superior/vorpal branding already.

Perhaps It could increase the base item type (so morning stars become evening stars and tridents become glaives etc.) Obviously this might not always be desirable, but for the most part it would and it'd make it a lot more useful. Also, maybe if vorpalising was also guaranteed to add +1, +1 (as in, just the same as a guaranteed enchant scroll III) regardless of the current enchantment level, so it could break the top limit, it'd be more useful for pretty much everybody, rather than becoming useless as soon as you find a slightly better than average randart.

[Rast]

I play a lot of centaurs, so I almost always have use for use a VW scroll... *one* VW scroll. The rest are junk.

maybe if vorpalising was also guaranteed to add +1, +1 (as in, just the same as a guaranteed enchant scroll III) regardless of the current enchantment level, so it could break the top limit, it'd be more useful for pretty much everybody, rather than becoming useless as soon as you find a slightly better than average randart.

But that encourages players to hoard them up until EW has gotten the weapon fairly high up.

I do agree with the suggestion of allowing it to rebrand weapons.

[Moose]

I like the idea of vorpalize scrolls artifactifying a weapon.

As it is, artifacts can be generated with several types of bonuses: rN+, rF+, rC+, rPois, rElec, +Dam, +Acc, +Blink, *TELE, +Rage, etc ...

What if reading one a Scroll of Vorpalize Weapon randomly added one of those properties to your wielded weapon, and turned it into an artifact?

There are some issues with it, the first one I thought of being that it would preclude your weapon from being further enchanted by scrolls of enchant weapon I, II, and III. I think this could be solved by just removing the restriction that says you cant use those scrolls on artifacts. I've always found it odd that you can't do that anyway.

Also, you'd have to probably cap the number of beneficial properties your weapon can have. These scrolls are pretty rare though.

Think of it like a potion of beneficial mutation for your weapons!

[Davion Fuxa]

I'm sort of against the idea of Vorpalize Weapon being able to modify existing Artefacts. I think that once an Artefact is created, it should be incapable of being changed. Being able to create Artefacts though is another story, since it doesn't seem all that far out from turning Dragon Hides into Armor for example.

[dassem]

I wanted to add my thoughts (partly based on XuaXua's excellent linked post). Some of this summarizes a few things people have already said.

It seems to me that there are 5 (or possibly even 6) scrolls for boosting weapons/armor:

• EW1
• EW2
• EW3
• Vorpal
• EA
• (Acquirement - some kinds)

These do 4 things, split rather unevenly:

• Increase the weapon bonus (EW1 EW2 EW3)
• Brand the weapon (Vorpal)
• Increase the armor bonus (EA)
• Change the armor type (EA)

I also included acquirement, because there are some parallels with changing a hide into armor... For example, if you acquire a weapon, you are most likely hoping for a better type of a weapon you already have (maybe you have a trident or falchion but want a bardiche or triple sword).

An easy suggestion would be to junk EW1 and EW2, just leave a proportionately more common EW3 scroll (call it just EW).
Possibly you could wrap EA and EW into an "Enchantment" scroll as those two concepts seem so similar. The obvious disadvantage is that this might hurt fighters who want to pump both armor and a weapon to high values, while making it too easy for other classes to max out their more limited equipment. However, I see nothing wrong with making something that's highly prized for one class and almost trash for another. Also it forces that hypothetical fighter to make some tough choices.


Now, off to the random thoughts section:

Vorpal does many things, which I like but, some of which do seem scummy or spoily to me. One suggestion could be to boost the "plain" vorpal brands, but not let you permanently apply other brands, and again to let it work the same for armor (+EV for robes or +AC for armors?)... Another alternative could be to give the player a promt to select the brand. I prefer the idea of asking "Which brand?" over having to learn a spell just to cast it once, vorpalize, then amnesia. Maybe you could also reduce the number of elemental staves, and have to produce those by branding a quaterstaff.

Then there's changing the base type. Again, I think the hide to armor trick is spoily. However I like the idea of 'earning' cool gear. On that note, a more radical idea could be to change how acquirement works! Make it more of a trade or upgrade than a totally free item. I suspect the effort involved in this is not worth considering.

Another suggestion that came up relates to making (or changing) artifacts or adding other powers (eg +Tele). Should these be manually applicable? I would say no. It sounds too hard to balance and overlaps with abilities from other sources too much.

[XuaXua]

It is my opinion that scrolls of Vorpalization are rare enough that they should be allowed to do amazing things. Do consider that those things are not necessarily applicable for all characters.

[XuaXua]

Vorpal does many things, which I like but, some of which do seem scummy or spoily to me. One suggestion could be to boost the "plain" vorpal brands

Or existing brands. If it's already flaming, and you vorpal it, it gets +rF or spell-enhances like a ring of Fire. It could also be based on the type of weapon; quarterstaves are more likely to get +AC, daggers more likely to get +stealth, etc.

Maybe you could also reduce the number of elemental staves, and have to produce those by branding a quaterstaff.

I'd love to see EW work on enhancer staves, since they're always +0/+0 and the usage is skill-based. It's not like many outside of Earth Elementalists use their elemental staves for combat; this might encourage it and give a reason to have duplicate enhancer staves in-game (besides monsters using them; having the +/+ might actually encourage them to keep hold of their staves rather than trade off for a plain +5/+5 hand axe).

[mumra]

It's not like many outside of Earth Elementalists use their elemental staves for combat

Can you back this up with data or ...

[Davion Fuxa]

It's not like many outside of Earth Elementalists use their elemental staves for combat

Can you back this up with data or ...

Actually, I don't think many people use Magical Staves for actual Melee combat. Having to train up Evocations, Staves, the Appropriate Spell School, and Fighting is quite a bit of experience to tally up to make a Magical Stave a viability weapon. It's more then likely you've found a weapon by the time you've trained your skills up - if you aren't just destroying everything with spells.

[BlackSheep]

Wow...

[battaile]

Wow...

Clearly you don't understand the ways of the Spear and Shield Ogre.

[mumra]

It's not like many outside of Earth Elementalists use their elemental staves for combat

Can you back this up with data or ...

Actually, I don't think many people use Magical Staves for actual Melee combat. Having to train up Evocations, Staves, the Appropriate Spell School, and Fighting is quite a bit of experience to tally up to make a Magical Stave a viability weapon. It's more then likely you've found a weapon by the time you've trained your skills up - if you aren't just destroying everything with spells.

Can you back this up with data or ...

[mrbobbyg]

I use elemental staves basically on every character that casts elemental spells, finds an appropriate one, and doesn't already have a "keeper" weapon.

All you really need to do it train staves and evocation, because you're already training the elemental skill, and you should probably be training at least some evoc to use a CBoE regardless. Also, every mage should probably have some way of killing things that doesn't cost MP. Unless you want to just pack it in the first time you get caught by a silent spectre, an eye of draining, or a ghost moth.

[rchandra]

I used staff melee of a school with no spells on this winning MiGl. I don't think this is common, but there were a few deciding factors:
a) already using staves
b) early ashenzari altar, she mitigates the exp cost.
c) didn't find a good lajatang
d) shield with slaying
e) 2 manuals of ice magic

Eventually, since I was casting Necro spells and still hadn't found ice spells, I changed to a staff of death and reskilled away some of the ice. But basically every character of mine who starts as or becomes an elementalist wants their staff. Sometimes they don't find it soon enough and end up using a staff of conjuration for enhancement and some demon weapon for bashing.

[XuaXua]

That's the thing. Staff skill. Why am I loading into Staff skill when I should be using those skill points to enhance spell (offensive) or defensive skills?

And I misspoke about Earth Elementalists... I also meant to include any non-extended-endgame Necromancers who don't have a Pain-branded weapon and appropriate associated weapon skill.

[BlackSheep]

Fire, ice and air elementalists can also make great use of the associated staff. You'll want a weapon skill of some kind eventually, and if you have the staff it might as well be Staves. Why do you imagine that primary casters are sacrificing spell power and defense for staves? You get staves later.

[danharaj]

Sometimes I am not sure people actually play crawl when they make generalizations about how it is played.

[Sandman25]

Late game casters need melee. Magical staves look like obvious choice especially if we factor in time to swap weapons after running out of MP (0 for magical staves, 0.5 for everything else, don't forget magical staves are spell power enhancers), experience for min delay (12, only dagger/quickblade require less) and damage (with 27 Evo/magic school it is 0-50 with 100% chance to activate on hit).

[BountyHunterSAx]

I 2nd the idea of vorpalising a weapon turning an unbranded weapon into a randart. I'd add the caveat that the +X,Y should be random if they used to be 'good', but stay the same if they used to be negative or equal to zero. I think it's a very convenient to code, simple buff to what is *supposed* to be a really powerful scroll. Also, since at least half the randarts you find in the dungeon will end up either being 'junk' or 'outclassed by something else you have', this gives you an opportunity cost when using a vorpal scroll now.

Ex:

You're a lvl 14 Minotaur. You've got yourself a reasonably nice +3,+4 Battleaxe. It's one of only three battleaxes you've seen in the dungeon thusfar and naturally you've sunk 2-3 enchant scrolls into it to buff it a little more, but saved other EW I/II's for later. Do you:
a.) Put an ice-brand on this battleaxe and vorpalize it on, call it a day till Vaults? (least risk, least reward)
b.) Vorpalize one of the other Battleaxes, and accept the "crappy" to-hit stat associated with it? (risk: loss of ice brand, reward: possible good randart with 'meh' X,Y)
c.) Bring one of your other Battleaxes up to "1,1" with a couple other EW's and then vorpalise it? (risk: loss of ice brand AND EW scroll(s), reward: better randart chance)
d.) Use it on your main weapon? (Highest risk: your primary weapon!!!, Reward: Best chance of a nice randart).
e.) Save it for later to use on an Executioner's axe?

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

What you're describing is nothing like a "buff" to ?vorpalise.

[BountyHunterSAx]

How come? It removes the ability to guarantee the 'vorpal' brand, but retains the ability to get all manner of superior brands on it (fire, ice, drain, etc.). And then it goes on to grant the ability to gain *any* brand including numerous awesome resists.

Put in another light: which would you pay more gp for ingame, an un-id'd artifact weapon of the weapon type you're using, or a vorpal scroll?

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

A vorpal scroll. Particularly if I have a well-enchanted weapon already. I don't relish the thought of introducing gambling into crawl.

In case you're wondering, it's the "+X,Y should be random if they used to be good" part I despise. The majority of randarts in crawl are useless.

[Tiber]

I think vorpal scrolls have an established-enough use that I'd really rather keep their original purpose, buffed to allow re-branding. As for artifacts, I still support the idea that Xom should rarely make/re-make artifacts. It could also be a final power of a random god.

[prozacelf]

As for artifacts, I still support the idea that Xom should rarely make/re-make artifacts.

Honestly though, how often does Xom hand out artifacts that aren't total crap? If you're just gonna throw it away anyway, I don't see a whole lot of need to change his behavior on it.