New Weapon Class: Demolitions

[inkydood]

What is this? Why do we want or need this?

Demolitions would technically be a semi-ranged weapon skill (as in, not extending to LOS), but not requiring a launcher or MP for use. While that might cause "Demolitions" to fall under the banner of Throwing, I proposed this as a new weapon school for thematic reasons. Bombs don't work quite like darts/javelins/large rocks (but to be fair, nor do blowguns).

I am less than stellar when it comes to matters of balance, so I’ve simply brainstormed a wide variety of ideas to be picked apart as you will. However, as a general rule, I imagine bombs would be heavier, more powerful, and less common than other types of standard ammunition.

Didn’t we JUST get rid of evaporate?

Yes. If my understanding is correct (and let’s be fair—it usually isn’t), that was related to the tedium from A) Requiring Fulsome Distillation and B) being readily available from corpses. I think this is different enough. I've tried to point out similarities/overlap to existing features when possible.

General Features

1. At lower skill levels, bombs will occasionally not detonate, or might explode prematurely. Standard bombs, grenades, and mine traps are fairly easy to master, but the more powerful explosives are dangerous and difficult to use.

2. Bombs are, without exception, loud.

3. Bombs tend to ignore AC to some degree.

4. Kills cause blood splatter and chunks to fly out.

5. Bombs are wielded with one hand.

6. Explosions affect multiple tiles. Standard bombs are less-than-ideal for adjacent enemies.

The Arsenal

Bombs: Throw up to 5 spaces, explode in a 2x2 grid, damaging/destroying nearby walls. If thrown at a wall, will detonate upon impact. Stronger than exploding darts.

Large bombs: Detonate in a 3x3 grid and ignore a greater AC percentage than normal bombs.

Super bomb: Upon detonation, it causes powerful, randomly placed explosions everywhere in LOS. Somewhat risky, as the player isn’t guaranteed safety and monsters aren’t guaranteed harm. When things go right, though, it can severely damage large swaths of dangerous enemies.

Grenades: Similar to bombs, but can be bounced off a wall for extra distance.

Incendiary grenade: A grenade that creates a cloud of flame on the tile it explodes on.

Mine trap: Placed in advance by the player, and deals direct damage when stepped on by a creature. If adjacent to another mine, activating one will set off the others nearby in a chain reaction. Ineffective versus flying or particularly dexterous enemies.

Dynamite: Placed on the ground, detonates a few turns later in a massive 4x4 diamond explosion. Can destroy walls and collapse ceilings, and even create shaft traps.

Remote-detonated dynamite: Same as dynamite, but the player can manually detonate when he chooses.

Remote controlled robot bomb: Take control of a walking bomb for several turns, leaving yourself open to attack. Or, if that can't be done, works similarly to Orb of Destruction (traveling towards enemy) and Delayed Fireball (detonates when player chooses).

Smoke bomb: A thrown scroll of fog.

Gas bomb: A thrown mephitic cloud. Another powerful escape tool.

Perfume bomb: Temporarily charms/enslaves its victims. Powerful against groups of Orcs and beasts, but less so against high MR enemies.

Ice bomb: Sends shrapnel flying upon detonation, and deals extra damage to enemies susceptible to cold.

Water balloon: Sends the enemy into a berserk rage.

[nicolae]

Most of these just replicate existing magical or wand effects, there's no reason a bomb would need to be its own weapon class anyway, and having numerous different kinds of ammunition is a pain in the ass from an inventory management standpoint.

[Psieye]

One of the key complaints about evaporate was "I have so many consumables cluttering up my inventory". This proposal in its full would be trebling the variety of stuff that evaporate removed. If we discarded all but one of the bomb ideas and the demolitions skill (use evo instead), I could see a case being made for it... depending on which bomb you choose to keep.

[Sar]

Cream pie: Can be eaten or throw. Applies "blindness" status effect on successful hit. Killer Klowns throw those.

[mumra]

I would certainly approve of a single-use evokable Holy Hand Grenade that explodes precisely three turns after throwing.

[Jabberwocky]

Bonus damage against rabbits?
I think this idea has the downside of the tedium of inventory management of evaporate, and steping on wands toes.

[ebarrett]

So pretty much a more messy version of evaporate with all the annoyances that used to come with it except instead of requiring multiple spells you have to wield these things (!) and for some reason you need an entire skill dedicated to it (!!!)

Yeeeeeah no just lump it with all the other DOA ideas.

[Tiber]

I actually like the idea of the basic bomb as a rare throwing item. That is, a large explosive that doesn't require magic, and allows non-rock walls to maybe be destroyed without LRD/Shatter (perhaps higher throwing skill improves this chance?). Let's face it, explosive darts are useless. That said, the million different types, and a new skill dedicated to it, are just bad ideas. Mines are even already on the won't-do list.

[pratamawirya]

@Tiber:
Yeah, I kinda agree with you. I even had an idea once about rare, special exploding sling bullets which deal more damage than the usual ones (which seem to me pretty useless after midgame).

[TwilightPhoenix]

I would certainly approve of a single-use evokable Holy Hand Grenade that explodes precisely three turns after throwing.

If the Evocations skill determines how often you properly count to three instead of five, then I'll like that idea.

[blackcustard]

I sort of like the mechanic behind the grenade. Bounce and then AoE explosion. Nothing else does that. I'm not sure how it will play though. It's not like a lightning bolt where you can shoot through stuff to reach the wall and bounce. Of course, you could let it pass through monsters but then the bounce is useless in most cases anyway. So really bounce would just be allowing you to toss it around corners.

That might be a bit cool though. Waking up a bunch of orcs by throwing a grenade around a corner would be fun . But then Crawl is removing its other out of LoS attacks. Maybe it would be okay with it just being a rare evokable item? (Wand, grenade, whatever. The actual flavour is irrelevant.)

[Pereza0]

Remote controlled robot bomb:

This game me an idea.

New Race: Robots

Naturally unstealthy, beeps uncontrollably.
Spells involving electricity confuse the player and always hit independently of EV.
Can't quaff potions, but needs them as lubricant (You feel a little stiff).
Must find a steady source of AC current before resting, batteries degrade over time.
HP permanently reduced every time the player is splashed by acid.
Stepping on shallow water causes permadeath.

[yogaFLAME]

There's a reason 2x2 grid targeted spells don't exist in the game.

[Tiber]

I thought he meant the explosion pattern that a giant spore has.

[inkydood]

One of the key complaints about evaporate was "I have so many consumables cluttering up my inventory". This proposal in its full would be trebling the variety of stuff that evaporate removed.

I actually like the idea of the basic bomb as a rare throwing item. That is, a large explosive that doesn't require magic, and allows non-rock walls to maybe be destroyed without LRD/Shatter (perhaps higher throwing skill improves this chance?). Let's face it, explosive darts are useless.

I considered inventory management, but in terms of how ranged characters might stock multiple ammunition types. Still, if tedium is the inevitable outcome-- that's no good. I went all-out in making the proposal as comprehensive and radical as possible, but I also like Tiber's idea (which is basically what I started with).

you have to wield these things (!) and for some reason you need an entire skill dedicated to it (!!!)

Demolitions would be your character's primary offense-- why wouldn't it require a dedicated skill? [EDIT: Even that's not totally crucial, though. If bombs are scarce enough they might just be a general-purpose consumable. I'm really just throwing out ideas here.] Wielding is a superfluous detail and easily changed without affecting the proposal. However, I don't know if I can revise this, in its current form, without the fundamental problem of inventory management.

There's a reason 2x2 grid targeted spells don't exist in the game.

You're right and that was dumb of me.

[Pereza0]

Demolitions would be your character's primary offense

I don't think this is too viable. Bombs get destroyed the 100% of the time you throw them, they would never be viable as primary weapons unless the dungeon was crawling with them.
As random items around the dungeon, most already have a wand/scroll counterpart, and there are already lots of wands and ways to deal damage.

[mumra]

you have to wield these things (!) and for some reason you need an entire skill dedicated to it (!!!)

Demolitions would be your character's primary offense-- why wouldn't it require a dedicated skill? [EDIT: Even that's not totally crucial, though. If bombs are scarce enough they might just be a general-purpose consumable. I'm really just throwing out ideas here.] Wielding is a superfluous detail and easily changed without affecting the proposal. However, I don't know if I can revise this, in its current form, without the fundamental problem of inventory management.

The problem isn't with justifying whether these items need a new skill.

The problem is justifying whether Crawl has any room for a new skill. You only have so much XP to spread around your character's skills, and you would still want to train your melee skills for backup when you ran out of bombs. It would make far more sense if these bomb items leveraged throwing and/or evocations skills which at least have other uses too.

There's a reason 2x2 grid targeted spells don't exist in the game.

You're right and that was dumb of me.

Actually I think it could work. The 2x2 explosion could be centered around one of the corners (at random) of the targetted square, if you get what I mean. So you're guaranteed to hit the square you aimed at, but you don't know which other three squares next to that will get hit. Could be an interesting variation on existing AoE patterns.

I do think adding one or two types of explosive as miscellaneous items or projectiles could be interesting. Maybe these should be lumped in with miscellaneous magical items: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:magical:misc (if anything ever happens with that page!)

[tcjsavannah]

Two words: potato cannon.

Sustenance -and- weapon in one.

[jejorda2]

I like that, because then you have to think:
Is there more food in the game, or more throwable weapons, like clubs and spears? How shall I use this potato to best preserve my other resources?

And of course, potatoes are funnier than cream pies, because cream pies don't need a launcher.

[Stormfox]

And of course, potatoes are funnier than cream pies, because cream pies don't need a launcher.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074256 is the story of when someone develops a launcher for cream pies.