Serving more that one god at the time


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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 15:55

Serving more that one god at the time

OK, I realise this might sound controversial, but maybe it`s worth to think of. Just want to hear your thoughts about it.
The idea is to allow the character to serve more than one god at the time (two of them? three?). Some game mechanics should be changed for sure.

Here`s the idea:

1. A lot of mechanics should be changed, so it would be a sort of an alternative game (something like the inception?), so points for this game should not be counted along with the regular games - however, it could be counted if it has its own tourney.

2. To balance the advantages, the game should be significantly harder (some in-game formulas should be changed).

3. A player might not serve "good" god along with the "evil" one, so the possible ways are: good-good, evil-evil, neutral-neutral, good-neutral and evil-neutral. Good god with evil one are excluding and cannot be served at one time.

4. Xom is the exception, and, because he doesn`t use regular piety, cannot be served along with the others.

5. A player might take advantage of the god`s powers, but then - to balance the advantages - all the faith restrictions should be summed, or even sharpened (the more gods you serve atthe time, the more restrictions you`ve got; if it still does not suffice to balance the advantages, the restrictions should be sharpened).

6. Piety rises slower, because the general piety gained from all sources is divided by (two? three?) gods equally; ex. sacrifising a corpse when serving a Makhleb (which appreciates sacrifising them) along with Cheirbriados (which doesn`t) gives 50% piety for Makhleb and 50% for Cheir. Dividing a piety is the only way to have equal piety for the gods (if it`s not divided, there should be more ****** lines in the game interface).

7. Piety increasing from Amulet of Faith is also equally divided by gods.

8. Eventual religion renounce should be punished heavier then it`s now (ex. a penance happens two or three times often until the abandoned god is mollified). This is to prevent easily "gods-shiftings", according to the actual branch (the only exception are the "good" gods, which can be easily shifted).

These are just my loose thoughts; it might be a good improvement or might not.
(sorry for my english)

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 16:02

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 16:05

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

My gut cries out, "no." The game is fundamentally balanced to one god per player; there is almost certainly no small bundle of mechanical tweaks that would make this work.

If you think this would be really neat, you might try making a sprint or Zot Defense-sized game based on the concept.
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Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 16:11

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Hmm, a polytheism sprint... that would be cool to mess around in.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 16:17

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

OK, in the "Polytheism Sprint" you should not choose gods in the beginning (no altars), because people would mostly choose the best sets of gods; the whole point is to made the game challenging. But then, the games would not be comparable.
A player should (?) start with two or three random gods and could not change them during the game to prevent easy gods-shifting. Would that be doable?

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 16:18

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

It's out of the question, at least until somebody comes along with an actual concept for a multi-religion mini-game (for the full game it's out of question all the way, in my opinion).

What I dreamed of a long time ago was a different kind of mini-game: a level where the gods fight each other (with factions etc.) I guess the player would be a mighty hero, but certainly weaker than a god. I don't have much more than that, but I can offer a title: "Twilight of the gods" :)
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 17:42

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

For the mini-game, a player chooses from a number of possible, already established sets ("god`s alignments"). The combinations should be rather challenging, like, for example:

=> TSO-Jiyva-Trog (1st, "good", alignment),
=> Fedhas-Lugonu-Kiku (2nd. "evil" alignment),
=> Ashenzari-Nemelex-Yredelemnul (3rd, "evil" alignment),
=> Sif-Vehumet-Beogh (4th, "evil" alignment),
=> Elyvilon-Cheir-Zin (5th, "good" alignment)
=> Oka-Makhleb-Xom (6th, "evil" alignment).

In 6th team, rather powerful Oka-Makhleb team is counterbalanced by Xom`s insanity. 1st team is seemingly powerful, but playing Trog along with Jiyva and TSO might be really challenging. Etc.

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 18:03

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

OK, in the "Polytheism Sprint" you should not choose gods in the beginning (no altars), because people would mostly choose the best sets of gods; the whole point is to made the game challenging. But then, the games would not be comparable.


This is exactly what people do in the Ecumenical Temple too :P It isn't much of a problem if a lot of stuff is given to the player in the beginning, as evidenced by Sprint V (zigsprint). First of all, "the best set of gods" depends entirely on starting choice (a summoner might want Sif as one of the gods, but a berserker will probably want someone else to supplement Trog), second, Sprint levels can be tweaked in difficulty according to the gear given in the beginning. If Sprint I got Sprint V starting gear, it would be far too easy, but Sprint V isn't far too easy.

The combinations should be rather challenging


Nemelex + Yred + Ashenzari is like "here, have the three best gods in the game"
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 18:04

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Those combos all sound really, really powerful. A halo and berserk? And beneficial mutations and slimify? Yes please! Skill boosts, use of my super-sweet decks even while bound, and servitor slaves too? No problem.

...and so on.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 18:36

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

"Those combos all sound really, really powerful."

OK, I might have chosen bad (too powerful) combos. But they should be counterbalanced by the super hardness of the game anyway.
Last edited by adamo901 on Monday, 14th January 2013, 18:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 18:37

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Flavor-wise, this would presently only make sense with the three good gods. Gameplay-wise, you'd have to rebalance the entire main game to accommodate this idea, so no. There's really only two situations that could work into the DCSS right now as is. 1) The suggested sprint mode. 2) A "god" that is actually multiple gods, such as the proposed door good way back where you were actually worshipping two gods at once. They both had different abilities and conduct and tracked piety separately, not to mention their conducts conflicted, but you had to either worship both or neither, couldn't just pick one.
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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 19:06

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

In general gods are so powerful I think you'd need combinations like:

Xom-Nemelex-Xom
Trog-Vehumet-Sif

And such. For balance. And great justice.
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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 19:06

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

If we just want a mini-game for the sake of polytheism, then let's be utterly silly with it: the Ecumencial Hydra! You are some experimental hydra that Xom has jacked up the Int of so you understand the concept of religion. Then he tricked every other god in the pantheon into thinking each head is actually an (anatomically) regular humanoid worshipper. Xom doesn't care that some gods are mortal enemies of the other, this hydra can be stuck with having to worship conflicting gods. NB: for Sif to take you seriously, Xom gave you knowledge of Summon Butterly at the start. Frequent god wrath is a given! If one of your heads gets chopped off, Xom rolls 2 new religions for you to replace the old! Of course, you cannot choose which head gets chopped off!!


Ok... how many exclaimation marks did I spit out in that Xom pitch?

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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 21:56

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

"Xom`s tricks" mini-game.

It`s not the hydra, but the human (or other race) in the hands of Xom. Xom finally found a way to trick the whole pantheon of gods, so he uses his slave (which is a player) to do that. Every X turns there is a chance, that Xom would roll a religion set, so a player never knows whom would he worship after several turns (there are no altars in the game, because it`s Xom, not the player, decides, which religion to start/renounce.
By constantly renouncing his slave`s religion and adding randoms gods at their place, Xom makes gods angry for the player, which makes him roaring with laugh (that`s the main goal of his tricks)... Especially when a player is worshipping good and evil god at the same time. It`s very funny for Xom, but not for his slave - this exposes the player to the wrath of abandoned gods.
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 14th January 2013, 22:17

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

This would still be an awfully hard thing to make work -- some gods' wrath (Trog, I'm looking at you) is almost not survivable without scumming. A bunch are pure murder until you're very high-level.
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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 01:37

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

njvack wrote:This would still be an awfully hard thing to make work -- some gods' wrath (Trog, I'm looking at you) is almost not survivable without scumming. A bunch are pure murder until you're very high-level.


I don't know. I abandoned Trog in favor of Nemelex on a MfGl shortly before V:8, and almost never had trouble. Once in a while he surrounds you with monsters, but I could usually simply pound them into the ground in the open. (Too many berserk stone giants and you actually have to start practicing tactics.) But on a strong 3-runer it's completely doable.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 07:13

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Shortly before V:8 is "very high-level" for most characters.

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 17:01

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Blade wrote:Shortly before V:8 is "very high-level" for most characters.

Eh?! Maybe Zot ready, but a long ways from ready for Hells or Tomb for any character I ever got there.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 17:09

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

We were discussing surviving god wrath, not post-end game content. Enduring Trog wrath right before you go for your third rune is very different from doing so while, say, clearing Lair.

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 18:15

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

njvack wrote: some gods' wrath (Trog, I'm looking at you) is almost not survivable without scumming.


BlackSheep wrote:We were discussing surviving god wrath, not post-end game content.


Scumming IS post-endgame content. Or a Mummy hanging out for a million turns on D10. But for most characters, and for any with business worshipping Trog, scumming means Pan/Abyss. That's why I disagreed; there's no need at all on a lot of characters to touch the extended endgame to survive Trog's wrath handily.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 18:20

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

No, scumming Trog wrath means waiting it out by hiding with a pile of food someplace where you can avoid the worst of it. Nobody advocates running around the Abyss or Pan to get rid of wrath.

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Post Tuesday, 15th January 2013, 18:26

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

BlackSheep wrote:No, scumming Trog wrath means waiting it out by hiding with a pile of food someplace where you can avoid the worst of it. Nobody advocates running around the Abyss or Pan to get rid of wrath.


Ah. I guess I thought he was defining what he meant by high-level: someone who had scummed Pan or Abyss. Scumming god's wrath makes more sense, and his original comment makes more sense if we aren't talking post-3-rune levels of highness.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 16th January 2013, 14:32

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

why not just make a polythyistic god or race
im very imaginitive and enjoy creating newstuff but i need to work on showing it

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Post Wednesday, 16th January 2013, 15:06

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

why make a polythyistic (sic) god or race

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Post Thursday, 17th January 2013, 17:59

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Because you like thighs. The more the merrier, right?
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Post Thursday, 17th January 2013, 19:40

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

adamo901 wrote:OK, I realise this might sound controversial, but maybe it`s worth to think of. Just want to hear your thoughts about it.
The idea is to allow the character to serve more than one god at the time (two of them? three?). Some game mechanics should be changed for sure.


I've had this same idea, and, I suspect, so have a lot of other people. But I wouldn't change any mechanics; I'd just let it be an easier version of Crawl. The game is already difficult enough for most players that even letting them play Trog-Okawaru-Mahkleb would not be a guaranteed win.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 17th January 2013, 21:25

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

If you want an easier version of Crawl, that's a good use of Wizard Mode. Letting people change game systems for easier gameplay is kind of the same thing.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 17th January 2013, 22:34

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Ok, it seems polytheism was a bad idea. But it might be worth to implement a constant threat (though with low probability) of an instant renounce religion (some kind of trap?). I see two ways here:

=> something (possibly one of the effects of a Zot trap) causes renounce religion, which makes you an atheist (unbeliever); your previous god punishes you, as an ex-follower for abandoning him,
=> by entering hidden altar of Xom (kind of a trap), Xom tricks your current god and takes over the follower without penalty from the previous god (without the penalty of your previous god - just like switching between the good gods - you became the toy of Xom). Now, instead of serving your previous god, you have to be a Xom`s slave...

The second way is more sensible, though still controversial. Of course, you can always abandon Xom, but with his penance counter it will be painful..
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 17th January 2013, 22:54

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

adamo901 wrote:Ok, it seems polytheism was a bad idea. But it might be worth to implement a constant threat (though with low probability) of an instant renounce religion (some kind of trap?).

Religion in Crawl is more of a strategic choice -- one you develop over a long time. Traps tend to do better as tactical challenges -- having effects you need to deal with in the short term. Largely, this is because you're gonna deal with a lot of traps over the course of the game, while you'll switch gods maybe a couple times.

I could imagine some kind of faith trap, that either simply reduced your piety or subjected you to a round of wrath -- though those are currently an amulet effect and a card effect, respectively. Well, the card effect is a little different, as it can be any God's wrath.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 18th January 2013, 01:40

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

Hmm, if excommunication is too much, what about decreasing piety Zot effect? It might be useful for threatening a player at lower levels. If one wants to avoid this situation at all cost, he needs to invest experience into the Trap&Doors skill. Otherwise he risks blundering a Zot trap and decreasing piety. Zot traps has to be nasty.

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Post Monday, 21st January 2013, 18:37

Re: Serving more that one god at the time

While I don't disagree with the notion of making a Zot trap decrease piety, it's not like it's going to give much more of an incentive to avoid them. Remember, a zot trap can currently summon a Fiend. Or an Executioner. Or banish you. Or drain up to 7 stat points. Or give you terrible red glow.

Zot traps are already Hell Effects On Demand. I NEVER step on one voluntarily on a nonzot-ready character. I don't think a bit of piety drain will affect this much.
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