Needles and throwing gift: they are scarce (?)

[nago]

I'm currently playing a HaBe, with the intention to play a needle - stabber build, but I'm currently puzzled by how needles gift are handled.

First try: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/na ... 232417.txt (died stupidly)
He was quite lucky with a early amulet of faith - nevertheless I've got the impression needles were rarely gifted in comparison with shitty darts (with faith on!): I had to rely a lot on invis-stab during normal game, as I never received more than about 10 needles of confusion and maybe 15 needles of sleeping. Still, as needles are very good, I could use effectively them when I strictly needed. In Pan I received a lot more of sleeping ones - unfortunately I can say if they would be enough, as I had enough +dam stacked to rip anything wasn't a Pan Lord.

Second try, with little hope by now to go in extended: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/nago/nago.txt

Despite having found that +inv leather armour so and being most of game with full piety (I had to use Trog powers very rarely), I have seen almost no needle: I've received the 8 needles of frenzy in Elf now, the 3 sleeping one just before and less of half of the confusion and curare ones are Trog's gift. In other words, I've been forced to play most of the game with only about 10 needles of confusion - which I admit are still useful when invis isn't viable and the enemy is very dangerous, but it's far from what I may consider optimal for a needle-stab build.

On the other hand, in the last run Trog gifted me:

  Code:

 a - [Lair:2] 20 exploding darts {god gift}
 b - [Vaults:1] 20 darts of frost {god gift}
 c - [Vaults:1] 19 darts of frost {god gift}
 d - [D:17] 19 steel darts {god gift}
 e - [Vaults:2] 13 silver darts {god gift}
 f - [Lair:8] 16 darts of dispersal {god gift}
 g - [D:18] 4 poisoned darts {god gift}
 h - [D:19] 2 darts of frost {god gift}
 i - [D:20] 9 silver darts {god gift}
 j - [Orc:4] 3 poisoned darts {god gift}
 k - [D:22] 13 darts of flame {god gift}
 l - [D:22] 13 silver darts {god gift}
 m - [Elf:3] 11 darts of dispersal {god gift}
 n - [Vaults:7] 9 silver darts {god gift}
 o - [D:23] 6 darts of frost {god gift}

all of which happily contributed to clutter up the dungeon. Plus, I've 18 useless needles of sickness gifted by Trog and scattered around.


So, I'm asking if throwing gift could be weighted a little more and a little better: if a character is carrying a blowgun, it's highly probable he may prefer needles over other kind of ammo, especially if he is of a small race, because darts are all pretty much useless by the time you can receive them.
Also, why needles of sickness are still in game? I feel a little trolled by Trog every time I see that he finally gave me some damned needles, just to discover they are crap.

[nago]

I can agree it's another solution, as I can't believe they are very useful - except marginal use on D:1, poison before a blowgun is found and dispersal until enemies start to have AC.

[BlackSheep]

When gifting thrown missiles, the game checks if you have a blowgun in your inventory, whether you're big enough to throw javelins and whether you're big enough to throw large rocks. It then chooses randomly from a list of the available options. In the case of a KoBe with a blowgun, you'd have a 50/50 chance of getting needles since your only options are darts and needles.

[nago]

Yes, I knew that: my point is that if a character is training throwing is probably because he wants needles, as they are very rare (almost not existent, at least paralysis/confusion/sleeping) in dungeon, while darts are useless, javelin are good but up to a point (you can't carry a lot, and mostly they're useful to soften enemies,) and large rocks are everywhere past D:10 and their mulch-rate is negligible.
Furthermore, I don't know if it's only a case, but all needles' gift I got were scarce - about 2/3 at time, most I've ever received at same time is 8 needles of frenzy - so it's very frustrating to get 2 needles of poison, then 4 time darts (or whatever else, I suppose, if playing normal size races) and then only 2 damned needles of confusion.

Maybe the throwing gift formula could also check stabbing and stealth skill too: if they're high it's almost certain the characters is a stabber who wants needles, while if lower he could prefer javelin - it's just an idea.

[Psieye]

It may just be simpler to just check XL as a rough guideline of "this character is beyond the point where darts hold any meaning to him". If XL > (some threshold), never gift darts. So in the case of a small character with no blowgun and only Throwing as the ranged skill, they'd never receive any ammo gifts.

Actually, by the time you hit 4* piety to start getting ammo gifts, you pretty much have outgrown the need for darts anyway so maybe just never gift darts, period?

[BlackSheep]

Minmay's suggestion is making more and more sense.

[Davion Fuxa]

Either that or improve Darts - maybe make it so that increasing skill level in Throwing lets you throw more then 1 Dart at a time, or have it so that you have a rising chance of ignoring Armor and Shield Values.

[Pereza0]

I'm currently playing a HaBe, with the intention to play a needle - stabber build, but I'm currently puzzled by how needles gift are handled.

First try: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/na ... 232417.txt (died stupidly)
He was quite lucky with a early amulet of faith - nevertheless I've got the impression needles were rarely gifted in comparison with shitty darts (with faith on!): I had to rely a lot on invis-stab during normal game, as I never received more than about 10 needles of confusion and maybe 15 needles of sleeping. Still, as needles are very good, I could use effectively them when I strictly needed. In Pan I received a lot more of sleeping ones - unfortunately I can say if they would be enough, as I had enough +dam stacked to rip anything wasn't a Pan Lord.

Second try, with little hope by now to go in extended: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/nago/nago.txt

Despite having found that +inv leather armour so and being most of game with full piety (I had to use Trog powers very rarely), I have seen almost no needle: I've received the 8 needles of frenzy in Elf now, the 3 sleeping one just before and less of half of the confusion and curare ones are Trog's gift. In other words, I've been forced to play most of the game with only about 10 needles of confusion - which I admit are still useful when invis isn't viable and the enemy is very dangerous, but it's far from what I may consider optimal for a needle-stab build.

On the other hand, in the last run Trog gifted me:

  Code:

 a - [Lair:2] 20 exploding darts {god gift}
 b - [Vaults:1] 20 darts of frost {god gift}
 c - [Vaults:1] 19 darts of frost {god gift}
 d - [D:17] 19 steel darts {god gift}
 e - [Vaults:2] 13 silver darts {god gift}
 f - [Lair:8] 16 darts of dispersal {god gift}
 g - [D:18] 4 poisoned darts {god gift}
 h - [D:19] 2 darts of frost {god gift}
 i - [D:20] 9 silver darts {god gift}
 j - [Orc:4] 3 poisoned darts {god gift}
 k - [D:22] 13 darts of flame {god gift}
 l - [D:22] 13 silver darts {god gift}
 m - [Elf:3] 11 darts of dispersal {god gift}
 n - [Vaults:7] 9 silver darts {god gift}
 o - [D:23] 6 darts of frost {god gift}

all of which happily contributed to clutter up the dungeon. Plus, I've 18 useless needles of sickness gifted by Trog and scattered around.


So, I'm asking if throwing gift could be weighted a little more and a little better: if a character is carrying a blowgun, it's highly probable he may prefer needles over other kind of ammo, especially if he is of a small race, because darts are all pretty much useless by the time you can receive them.
Also, why needles of sickness are still in game? I feel a little trolled by Trog every time I see that he finally gave me some damned needles, just to discover they are crap.

Wow, that's weird, last time I played I needler Im pretty sure I was drowned in needles.

Anyway, agree there is something wrong there. I never understood why the blowgun didn't get its own skill like the other launchers. I don't think someone who just throws stuff while wielding something else will ever have use for a blowgun, and the times I used the blowgun I never had any use from throwing stuff either.

Darts have never proved useful in the early game (at least to me) except when poisoned, maybe.... Dont mind them getting cut

[nicolae]

Anyway, agree there is something wrong there. I never understood why the blowgun didn't get its own skill like the other launchers.

IIRC it had one but it was removed ages ago.

[Pereza0]

Anyway, agree there is something wrong there. I never understood why the blowgun didn't get its own skill like the other launchers.

IIRC it had one but it was removed ages ago.

Hmm I guess it is because it isnt a reliable primary weapon skill by itself, so it gets thrown in with throwing that is kind of "secondary" too.

[varsovie]

FR: remove darts

I kinda agree but (because their is always a "but"), then we would need something else to make kobold/goblins interesting. Else the first time a player will get attack from afar will be an orc pack or a centaur.
Dart of dispersal (and to an extend explosion) are a rater useful asset too.

[Pereza0]

FR: remove darts

I kinda agree but (because their is always a "but"), then we would need something else to make kobold/goblins interesting. Else the first time a player will get attack from afar will be an orc pack or a centaur.
Dart of dispersal (and to an extend explosion) are a rater useful asset too.

Proposed solution: Every kobold now spawns with a crossbow, 10 bolts of venom/penetration/ice/fire depending of the vulnerabilities of the player character.

Seriously now, giving the kobolds bolts and crossbows and making them bad at it (like, no-more-damaging-than-a-kobold-with-a-dart bad) would be a neat way to avert the lack of crossbow ammo in the early game if you dont worship a gifty god

[Galefury]

Maybe the lack of crossbow ammo in the early game is one of the few interesting and unique features of crossbows. Maybe it should be kept. Crossbows need to be different from other ranged weapons in some way.

[Pereza0]

Maybe the lack of crossbow ammo in the early game is one of the few interesting and unique features of crossbows. Maybe it should be kept. Crossbows need to be different from other ranged weapons in some way.

I wouldn't call that a feature... but yeah, I get your point

[Galefury]

I wouldn't call that a feature... but yeah, I get your point

Definition of FEATURE
3a : a prominent part or characteristic

[Pereza0]

Ouch

[Jeremiah]

Maybe just give kobolds a chance to spawn with a stack of daggers/spears/hand axes instead of darts.

[XuaXua]

Only if they stack in inventory.