Mechanical traps

[mumra]

Is there any reason mechanical traps haven't been removed yet, at the very least Bolt Traps? Pointlessly lost a decent character that was just starting to get somewhere in trunk: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6632 Unlucky, yes, but still stupid. Was looking forward to checking out the new Abyss

[Kate]

Just that nobody's gotten around to it yet.

[brendan]

I got killed by a trap and didn't get a chance to die in the Abyss.

This is an interesting grievance.

[mumra]

Strange, according to dpeg in a thread from mid-November, traps were already removed in trunk: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6280&p=84106&#p84106

Anyone know why that change was reverted?

[Kate]

It wasn't, that comment was incorrect.

[XuaXua]

But without traps, what would we use the traps skill for?

[nicolae]

But without traps, what would we use the traps skill for?

I think there are still some traps that will be kept, but they're getting rid of the traps that just pop out of the ground and damage your HP.

[yogaFLAME]

Alarm, Gas, Pressure Plate, Shaft, Web, Teleportation, Zot

aka the reasons you always trained the skill for

[Davion Fuxa]

But without traps, what would we use the traps skill for?

I think crate had a fairly good solution to what to do with it:

I would like to remove traps skill because training it is a trap in 0.12 and then change how detection works accordingly.

Regardless with the sentiments that might agree or disagree with him on the skills removal, I don't think it's a bad proposition to look into. As for how the mechanics might work with the removal of the skill and the players involvement with traps:

-Maybe round trap mechanics into the Stealth skill and change the name for that skill - seems like a minor boost to the Stealth skill and enough to consider changing it's modifier to 1:1 on Humans if there is a desire for evening out the modifers
-Perhaps make it so that Dexterity allows you to detect traps and disarm those that are still possible to disarm - Strength and Dexterity are commonly referred to being inferior to Intelligence, giving traps to Dexterity might start to give Dexterity a bit more of a level playing field with Intelligence.

[Psieye]

Hmm, I'm currently thinking of: remove traps skill, move "detect trap" competency to Stealth (the skill, not the final value), remove mechanical traps, alarm traps become more frequent. Provided all 4 of those happen, that could create an interesting traps experience in the early-midgame over the existing mechanical trap picture.

[jejorda2]

I like making trap detection part of evocation skill rather than stealth skill. Gameplaywise, there are already plenty of reasons to train stealth and evocations is mainly for stave users and getting blink and flight from rare artefacts working. Flavorwise, traps are gadgety like rods and wands.

[njvack]

I got killed by a trap and didn't get a chance to die in the Abyss.

This is an interesting grievance.

I think it was a compliment

[mumra]

Having thought about this some more (and also re-read the dev wiki page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps) I came up with one proposal that I haven't seen anywhere yet.

Personally I still love the flavour of the mechanical traps, the problem is that they're completely boring as a game mechanic.

What if, after triggering a trap, the player actually had a turn to decide what to do? So effectively the trap effect is delayed for a short amount of time in such a way that the player actually has options:

• The player can attempt to simply walk away from the square and get an EV roll to dodge the projectile
• Use a source of blink - this should have a very high chance of evading the trap, possibly 100% (since rblink could situationally be dangerous for other reasons if there are monsters around this is not necessarily a no-brainer, and burning a blink scroll should definitely be a guaranteed save since it's a valuable consumable)
• Heal using potion/wand if you're on low health and worried the trap could kill you
• Cast some defensive buff e.g. Ozo's Armour / Phase Shift / Shroud / etc.
• Swap in a piece of equipment e.g. ring of protection, shield of reflection
• Alternatively just stay where you are and not worry about getting hit if you have a tough character with plenty of HP

So this change actually introduces a set of choices for the player when a trap is triggered, and of course you can still make the strategical choice to invest in T&D if you want less chance of triggering traps in the first place.

Interestingly this allows us to make some traps more deadly because the player can no longer be insta-killed.

We can even add new types of mechanical trap, e.g. the spike pit (causes a lot of damage and applies a Held status, can be evaded with a source of flight).

I thought I would suggest this as an alternative to completely throwing away content. Either way I'm quite motivated right now to write a patch for trap reform after yesterday's disaster But it seems that right now there's not much agreement on exactly how this should happen, and in particular what to do about existing vaults that use mechanical traps; I imagine it's pretty easy to remove mechanical traps from random generation but vaults will need handling on a case-by-case basis.

[dpeg]

mumra: I am afraid that ship has sailed. It will be very hard to convince people to re-think about traps. You and I have been doing that, actually, back when we tried to salvage traps using item destruction (which is a lot better than HP loss).

jejorda: I agree that Evocations is better suited as a skill replacement than Stealth. One thing is that even a stealth-less character will want some trap detection and it's more interesting (i.e. a mor interesting decision when and how much) to pump some xp into Evo for that purpose.

[Sar]

Is it certain that Traps skill has to go? Maybe it would be better to change how it works. Make it roll for detection only once per trap, remove active searching, increase the frequency of magic traps?

I mean, it has one of the best mastery titles!

[ebarrett]

Make it roll for detection only once per trap, remove active searching

Isn't that what it does already and isn't that bad - and I don't mean it's necessarily worse than how it was before, just that it's a different kind of bad

[mumra]

mumra: I am afraid that ship has sailed. It will be very hard to convince people to re-think about traps. You and I have been doing that, actually, back when we tried to salvage traps using item destruction (which is a lot better than HP loss).

I know ... I just feel the main reason I can't immediately submit a patch to remove them is because of the question on how to handle vaults. (Actually, on the dev wiki page there was a volunteer to take on this task ... are you still up for that minmay?)

Another, simpler proposal at least as a temporary stop gap would be to artificially cap the amount of damage a trap can do. So for instance they can never remove more than 80% of your current HP, and never take you below 1HP under any circumstances. This would prevent the unavoidable deaths but still occasionally create an interesting situation in high tension. In my own example getting suddenly dropped to <10HP would have actually made me stop and think, especially if I'd run into anything else on my way to the stairs.

Isn't that what it does already and isn't that bad - and I don't mean it's necessarily worse than how it was before, just that it's a different kind of bad

No, detection is currently rolled every turn while you are in the vicinity of a trap, not just once per trap. This basically means you can abuse the system by stopping and searching all the time instead of training T&D.

[crate]

No, detection is currently rolled every turn while you are in the vicinity of a trap, not just once per trap. This basically means you can abuse the system by stopping and searching all the time instead of training T&D.

You are out of date. I am too lazy to find the commit for this right now but it is now deterministic. In fact "searching" is no more! (You now "rest" or "wait" only.)

edit found the commit: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=co ... 44a101ff31

[Sar]

I didn't know searching is no more. Can't say I'll miss it.

[njvack]

Another, simpler proposal at least as a temporary stop gap would be to artificially cap the amount of damage a trap can do. So for instance they can never remove more than 80% of your current HP, and never take you below 1HP under any circumstances.

Actually, if this is combined with "monsters don't trigger mechanical traps at all" it kinda just solves the problem. Doesn't have any bearing on whether they're interesting enough to stay, but they're no longer instadeath traps or scummable.

+1 on replacing Traps with Evo.

[mumra]

Another, simpler proposal at least as a temporary stop gap would be to artificially cap the amount of damage a trap can do. So for instance they can never remove more than 80% of your current HP, and never take you below 1HP under any circumstances.

Actually, if this is combined with "monsters don't trigger mechanical traps at all" it kinda just solves the problem. Doesn't have any bearing on whether they're interesting enough to stay, but they're no longer instadeath traps or scummable.

+1 on replacing Traps with Evo.

It definitely appears to be the simplest possible solution to the #1 annoyance.

I see no problem with monsters not triggering traps, monsters live in the dungeon after all so they'd know where the traps were / how to avoid them.

Evo isn't a bad idea, but I don't know if it makes total thematic sense that blasting wands would train you to recognise traps. I would actually favour a simple Int check; since traps will be non-fatal it's not something you will have any desire to train whatsoever.

[njvack]

Evo isn't a bad idea, but I don't know if it makes total thematic sense that blasting wands would train you to recognise traps. I would actually favour a simple Int check; since traps will be non-fatal it's not something you will have any desire to train whatsoever.

I'd never care about training it for mechanical traps, but I do care about shafts and magical traps.

[Tiber]

Evo isn't a bad idea, but I don't know if it makes total thematic sense that blasting wands would train you to recognise traps. I would actually favour a simple Int check; since traps will be non-fatal it's not something you will have any desire to train whatsoever.

Maybe just rename it to "Devices" skill, and say it covers both magical and non-magical items (or that all traps are magic devices, which is why they don't hit monsters). It also clears up confusion between invocation and evokation. It even has a "v", so the letter assignment for using evokables still makes some sense.

[XuaXua]

Regardless with the sediments that might agree or disagree with him on the skills removal, I don't think it's a bad proposition to look into.

They're dirty whether or not they agree.

[Pereza0]

Evo isn't a bad idea, but I don't know if it makes total thematic sense that blasting wands would train you to recognise traps. I would actually favour a simple Int check; since traps will be non-fatal it's not something you will have any desire to train whatsoever.

I'd never care about training it for mechanical traps, but I do care about shafts and magical traps.

The "fun" traps are magical traps and shafts really.

Theres nothing interesting about stepping somewhere and losing a bit of health for it. Even less fun is stepping on it and just dying without to be able to do anything about it (almost never ever happens in crawl, but still....).

Maybe there could be more magic-oriented traps with specific effects, maybe a trap that summons no-exp monsters against the one that stepped on it, one that confuses the player, etc... Maybe there could be others, on walls, that shoot (maybe orbs) the player if he gets within a certain range. Traps in the early game could be a lot more fun if spiced up a little, and required some player action after being triggered to minimize damage instead of just being noticed he has been stabbed in the ****

I like the fact monsters are affected by traps, you can kill a monster by positioning yourself correctly.

[mumra]

Maybe there could be more magic-oriented traps with specific effects, maybe a trap that summons no-exp monsters against the one that stepped on it, one that confuses the player, etc... Maybe there could be others, on walls, that shoot (maybe orbs) the player if he gets within a certain range. Traps in the early game could be a lot more fun if spiced up a little, and required some player action after being triggered to minimize damage instead of just being noticed he has been stabbed in the ****

The spider basket is a no-exp summons trap and we just need more variations (which can be easily written in LUA). The gas trap can confuse players, although someone else suggests debuff traps that apply a status to the player, there could definitely be more possibilities in that area. I actually wrote some code for an Orb trap, can't remember why I didn't finish / submit it - but it's pretty much identical to the Boulder traps, since rolling boulder beetles and orbs of destruction use nearly identical code.

I like the fact monsters are affected by traps, you can kill a monster by positioning yourself correctly.

Yeah but you get no exp and it's only very rarely even situationally viable.

[Pereza0]

I like the fact monsters are affected by traps, you can kill a monster by positioning yourself correctly.

Yeah but you get no exp and it's only very rarely even situationally viable.[/quote]

I know, but it is fun

[mumra]

I know, but it is fun

Well, I'm sure some people must enjoy that sort of thing, but for a second imagine clearing the entire game just by leading monsters over traps ... surely that would get old very quickly? The point is this is not exactly a core game mechanic we're talking about, and if removing it solves a load of other concerns then it's pretty obvious it should be done ...

[Pereza0]

I know, but it is fun

Well, I'm sure some people must enjoy that sort of thing, but for a second imagine clearing the entire game just by leading monsters over traps ... surely that would get old very quickly? The point is this is not exactly a core game mechanic we're talking about, and if removing it solves a load of other concerns then it's pretty obvious it should be done ...

Of course, of course. But if it doesn't create any trouble is a nice little thing to have

[TwilightPhoenix]

One thing I always wonder why Crawl doesn't have are the classic "step on a pressure plate and the walls start spewing arrows, flames, poison gas, blades, and what have you at set points and at random intervals" as seen in a lot of other media. These would need to be largely/only placed by Vaults, of course.

Just imagine, you're waltzing down a corridor that seems normal, but then you step on a pressure plate. Blades start shooting out of the walls up and down the corridor at set points (except the square the pressure plate was on and, consequently, the player's initial position when this triggers) in one direction and a boulder/orb of destruction/basket of spiders/whatever pops out the other end and heads toward you. That could make for an interesting situation, far more than "well, you stepped on this arbitrarily bad square, so I'm going to take 20hp away from you".

[njvack]

One thing I always wonder why Crawl doesn't have are the classic "step on a pressure plate and the walls start spewing arrows, flames, poison gas, blades, and what have you at set points and at random intervals" as seen in a lot of other media. These would need to be largely/only placed by Vaults, of course.

Vault designers can use existing stuff to achieve this effect pretty well -- the classic Crypt:5 end with the liches trapped behind glass demonstrates it well. One could trap statues or cloud generators behind walls just as well...

[Grimm]

One thing I always wonder why Crawl doesn't have are the classic "step on a pressure plate and the walls start spewing arrows, flames, poison gas, blades, and what have you at set points and at random intervals" as seen in a lot of other media. These would need to be largely/only placed by Vaults, of course.

How about go full Raiders and have a boulder roll down the corridor? Would that make game sense?

[Kate]

One thing I always wonder why Crawl doesn't have are the classic "step on a pressure plate and the walls start spewing arrows, flames, poison gas, blades, and what have you at set points and at random intervals" as seen in a lot of other media. These would need to be largely/only placed by Vaults, of course.

How about go full Raiders and have a boulder roll down the corridor? Would that make game sense?

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs ... ulders.des

[mumra]

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs ... ulders.des

Yeah I was about to say I actually mentioned those already earlier in the thread.

[Baldu]

Is it certain that Traps skill has to go? ... I mean, it has one of the best mastery titles!

For real. Dungeon Master. Getting it without grinding felt like such an achievement.

[njvack]

Well, if Evocations were renamed to Devices, then "Dungeon Master" could go there. It's at least as good as "Talismancer."

[TwilightPhoenix]

One thing I always wonder why Crawl doesn't have are the classic "step on a pressure plate and the walls start spewing arrows, flames, poison gas, blades, and what have you at set points and at random intervals" as seen in a lot of other media. These would need to be largely/only placed by Vaults, of course.

How about go full Raiders and have a boulder roll down the corridor? Would that make game sense?

A little farther down in the same post.

in one direction and a boulder/orb of destruction/basket of spiders/whatever pops out the other end and heads toward you.

[kaikaun]

Maybe a teleport trap that teleports you near to a group of enemies on the level with a loud sound? It would have infinite charges unless there are no enemies left, at which point it disappears. It could even reduce tedium by giving the player a way to quickly find enemies on the level to kill (like that unique or player ghost you left for later).

How about a teleport trap that teleports some of your inventory elsewhere on the level (% chance per item)? Either all the lost items end up in one pile (easier to find, but a jelly might find it), or they each go to a different place (possibly too much of a grind finding your stuff again).

Perhaps a trap that spawns permanently awake jellies somewhere else on the level? A bonus for Jiyva worshippers, and something to encourage faster exploration of the level to save loot. Combine this with the one above!

A magical "symbol of defilement" or "mark of heresy" that causes the player to go into penance and/or lose piety? Might make god choice more interesting -- some gods have worse penance and harder piety gain than others.

[XuaXua]

Started wondering why doors THEMSELVES (rather than the spaces around them) are not occasionally trapped.

[Sar]

Maybe because you can destroy doors (a situation where optimal behavior would be to blast every door with OoD just in case is hardly desirable), or because no one cared enough. Or both.

Edit: I completely forgot about door mimics.

[Lasty]

Posted this in the other traps thread, but I should have posted it here:

The Zot trap does a wide variety of interesting and painful things, but some of the things it does could make good traps in and of themselves. The first one that comes to mind would be a contamination trap (or mutation trap or temporary mutation trap?). It would make carrying scrolls of vulnerability somewhat more useful, and also provide a dangerous non-fatal magical trap. If mutations seem too severe, then temporary ones would probably do just fine.

[jejorda2]

Yeah, most of the ideas I have for good traps end up being something Zot traps already do some of the time. I'm not sure there's really much difference between stepping on a hypothetical banish trap you didn't see and stepping on a zot trap you didn't see that ends up banishing you, but it might be fun to decide, "Now that I've got flight, swiftness, and a wand of teleport, I'll try walking over that banish trap to get into that vault."

[crate]

Yeah it's fun to have to read the source to check that the loot in the vault is indeed not worth getting banished for.

[Lasty]

Yeah it's fun to have to read the source to check that the loot in the vault is indeed not worth getting banished for.

Arguably true for any of the magic traps, or any vault with foreseeable peril.

I wouldn't advocate for a banish trap -- that's something that seems overly punitive, and also abusable if it can be applied to monsters.

[crate]

hey youre right traps in vaults are a dumb idea

now how is an abyss trap outside a vault a smart idea?

[jejorda2]

Shafts put you in a more difficult situation without notice, and you can work your way out of it with smart moves.

So would abyss traps. Or a "Shoals:3" trap on D:8-13. But only if undetected.

But we already have Zot traps, so there's no good reason I can see to make dedicated banisher traps. Except I guess sometimes they could be used as an escape route, while I can't ever see using a Zot trap for escape.

[rebthor]

I don't really have a lot constructive to add other than I'd like to see mechanical traps go away entirely too. I posted my not really stupid YASD in mumra's thread since I too thought that mechanical traps were gone in trunk, fell off the wall when spider form ended and landed on a previously undetected bolt trap that hit me for 38 damage and killed me.

[tsarwash]

Hello. I just registered to give my input. It seems that a lot of people do not much like traps as they currently are, and I tend to agree, most traps are uninteresting annoyances. Losing 3/4 of your HP on a cleared level just means you need to rest more.

I have an idea I would like to share. Why not remove all mechanical random traps, and replace them with vault traps. 3x3 rooms with enchanted crossbows shooting at you ? I had the idea of an Indiana Jones style rolling ball thing, which could be implemented in a small space, but I'm sure that other people would have lots of more devious ideas. This would keep the idea of traps in the game, but keep people interested, and remove the insta-death element. And it would perhaps allow a lot of new ideas into the dungeon.

I like the idea of a mini vault that drew you in with the promise of a potion or such, then slammed the door, confused you and surrounded you with a small amount of themed monsters, a little like the trapdoor spider trap. A net trap is no fun without a specially placed monster (or five) nearby to increase the tension. A steam trap could block line of sight while releasing a few crossbow wielding nasties. A spider trap could surround and slow you with webs, while releasing a couple of distant(ish) Redbacks.
Miasma and Mutagenic gas clouds seem underused to me, and perhaps this could be a way of bringing them to wider use.

I don't know how difficult it is to implement mini-vaults, and I'm just putting forth some ideas.

Edit. I just had another idea for vault traps. Can mimics mimic books, or artifacts ? If so this could be a great way to draw people into traps.