Race Proposal-Randart Ugly Things

[wizzzargh]

I was thinking about the "Randart God" thread and tried applying the concept in a different direction- how hard would it be to implement the ability to, in-game, make custom races to play as? Obviously balance would be a nightmare, but I'm curious if a customizable blank slate to which different aptitude ratings and innate racial traits and such could be made without making the code cough up blood and die.

Ignoring the (admittedly, really hard to ignore) issue of balancing the ability to make a legitimate custom race, is such an idea at all feasible? A possible balance to this could be making the "Custom" race a "Random" race. Something even more random than a Demonspawn- You could end up as a Slow-Moving Poison-Spitting Horse-Torsoed Winged Claw-Monster with an affinity towards Translocations, Stabbing, and Maces and Flails(which is admittedly stupid, but that's usually how the RNG rolls, and I might as well be honest with myself.) Thematically, this "Ugly Thing" race would be a sort of "Long-time resident of the Dungeon finally gets so mutated that only the Orb itself can end their ugliness." This would almost certainly end up as another

Spoiler: show

gimmicky

challenge race, because the randomized traits would not be guaranteed excellent like a Demonspawn's and could include such lovely features like Slow Healing 3 or Teleportitis as well as the good mutations. Despite the punishing randomness, I think it would be interesting in terms of the sheer "What in the four hells am I playing, and how can I get it to work" sense. It also might be an interesting stress test for how unreliable a race can be before it becomes absolutely unlikeable and hated. On the other hand, I do feel like this might be a way to add some bizarre spice to the lives of the players who can by now ascend a Mummy Chaos Knight in their sleep.

Comments? Concerns? Crass comparisons of my genetic code to that of a Choko? Divine pronouncements to take my ugly things to Crazy Yiuf's Corner?

[TwilightPhoenix]

It would be kind of fun and interesting to try to ascend whatever abomination the RNG gave you, though I can see start scumming being a concern.

[wizzzargh]

It would be kind of fun and interesting to try to ascend whatever abomination the RNG gave you, though I can see start scumming being a concern.

Assuming the "randomness" was balanced out to some degree(so you wouldn't get a Deteriorating Naga with Mummy Apts, or a Regenerating Demigod with Kobold Apts) I don't think start-scumming would be that much of an issue. I mean, if they want to do well early on, they can just play a Minotaur Berserker, and that would probably be much more reliable than trying to cheese out some genetically perfect Ugly Thing. As it is, you can start scum the game for D:4 Temple or Randarts, or be a Merfolk Abyssal Knight stabbing Abominations, or level up a Demonspawn until you get Demonic Guardian, but the current people doing that doesn't affect MY enjoyment of the game at all, and those strategies are too unreliable to skew tournament results either.

My main concern would be that "Ugly Thing" being a race may just seem like the Wanderer Class being translated into Race context, though I hope this Ugly Thing could be more initially exciting than the oft- disappointing wanderer experience of being a gimped gladiator.

[Galefury]

Startscumming would be a problem. That's the reason current random traits only manifest after some time (Ds, Dr). It's bad enough with Wn already. So showing all the traits on turn one is bad. Which means you would just end up with a more extreme version of demonspawn, with some negative mutations thrown into the mix. Could be interesting, but a lot of design work. I don't think coding would be a major issue, but coming up with a good way to balance the good and bad traits (could be pairs, could be some kind of point system, or even a mix of the two) and a good set of traits would be a lot of work. Demonspawn are pretty great now because they have been improved many times, and even now there are major issues with some of their mutations (especially demonic guardian). Making these "ugly things" play different from Ds and be interesting would be hard.

One way it could work would be you start as an infested human (could also be a random living species instead of a human), and upon reaching XL 5 or so, the ugly thing bursts out of your body and you play that from then on. Some traits could be delayed to further inhibit startscumming by introducing several maturity stages, although there should be few (at most 3 IMO, even 3 would be a lot) to keep it different from Ds.

Another way it could work, even in a somewhat nonrandom way, would be this: you start out with not much special, similar to Ds. Every few levels you get a bad trait, and get to choose between two packages of good traits. These could depend on the bad trait you got, or just be entirely random. This forces you to adapt to the random bad traits, but also somewhat allows you to shape your species in the way you want.

A further way this could work is in a Jiyva-like manner: a species that constantly mutates, and has the ability to get rid of some of the unwanted mutations.

[Lasty]

Species could start with a modified version of the Evolving mutation which gives good/bad mutations in pairs and which is less likely to remove itself. The specialized form of Evolving could give mutations which change skill aptitudes.

[Grimm]

Yeah, "Irradiated Human" or something that continually evolves throughout the game - possibly even losing mutes and "evolving" back to almost normal.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Mind, I don't care about start scumming. If they want to do it, so be it. But the devs disagree there, hence why I mentioned it. I like the idea and would find adjusting to and trying to win a deteriorating Naga with Mummy apts interesting.

[njvack]

I'd always thought Dr and Ds trajectories not being known wasn't so much to prevent startscumming, but because an integral part of their gameplay is having to make choices without knowing how your character is going to turn out. Scummers gonna scum.

My biggest issue with this species is: Jiyva exists.

[rebthor]

I'd always thought Dr and Ds trajectories not being known wasn't so much to prevent startscumming, but because an integral part of their gameplay is having to make choices without knowing how your character is going to turn out. Scummers gonna scum.

My biggest issue with this species is: Jiyva exists.

What's the matter Jiyva? U JELLY?

[wizzzargh]

With regards to the idea of a constantly shifting race, I agree that that won't work. Jiyva already exists for mutations, and shifting aptitudes during gameplay would likely make the race unfeasible to play as- Imagine investing into Fire Magic, and then morphing into a reduced Aptitude and halving your skill level. While this occasionally happens to Draconians, that's a 1-time event at level seven, and is compensated for by the fact that draconians are quite powerful.

The main "point" of this race would be to generate something completely unlike any other race. It's not at all intended to be "Ds with all your goodies at Lvl 1," it's intended to be something entirely unique each time, that will allow immediately thought provoking once the character is created. Rather than adjusting to the randomness as the game progresses like a Ds or a Chaos Knight or a Jiyva worshipper, this race would offer an immediate, bizarre set of innate traits and mutations- it's not a "Mystery" concept like Ds that's being explored, it's more of a struggle against discord, trying to make sense of and bring order to what is initially without rhyme or reason. Additionally, the uniqueness isn't derived from new content, but from the mishmash of existing content that currently has never been seen together. An Ugly Thing could possibly answer interesting questions like "What would trolls be like if they were Felid-sized" or "Would an Ogre-sized Spriggan with tentacles be overpowered(even with eternal teleportitis?)" or "What cruel god decided this character's only positive aptitudes would be in Crossbows and Shields"

I don't think the "But startscummers!" is a good argument against this race. There are dozens of ways to startscum in DCSS, but doing so is tedious- Nemelex, Abyssal Knights, Xom, randart, berserker Monster diving... Repeatedly starting and quitting is, frankly, just as tedious, but with the additional deterrence of the fact that you would have to spend all that time NOT playing DCSS. If some poor gamer somewhere ate too much lead paint as a child and is willing to start and abandon dozens of characters, I'd say let him. He's not hurting anyone else, and frankly, the rate at which most players splat before temple could be considered "Unintentional Startscumming" anyway.

Besides, I hope that this race could be made so it is unlikely that there will be any reliable "combos" of traits that can effectively be startscummed for. I was thinking that the Aptitude pool would be generated with a "Average Worth of -1, or even -2." The random aptitudes would range from -4 to +2, but, averaged out, the overall should be -1( or -2). Overall levelling should be set at a rate of 140%- slow, but not cripplingly slow. With regards to the innate mutations, I think there should be some random mutations, and then 1 ensured good "Gamechanger" and 1 ensured Bad gamechanger. The Good game changers would be on the level of Lvl 3 Scales, Blinking, Fast Movement, Regeneration, or some similar powerful innate. The "Bad" gamechangers would be 3 levels of the most hideous mutations possible(Though degeneration should be limited to 2), like Blurry Vision 3, Berserker 3, Teleportitis 3, Slow 3, or perhaps 1 of each if you're really lucky. In addition to this(though I don't know how code-viable this is) things like inhuman lower torsos like Nagas or Centaurs, and perhaps even the "Large" and "Small" flags that would allow or disallow use of certain items would be possible.

What worries me most about this race is coding it in. I hope that since this race is a conglomeration of traits that already exist, coding a random generator of preexisting things would be relatively easy compared to creating new content, but as I know jack diddly about coding, I'm not too hopeful.

[galehar]

I don't think the "But startscummers!" is a good argument against this race.

You're wrong. You used to be able to guess the draconian colour by looking at the starting skill levels, which is why the aptitude change got moved to L7. People would startscum until they get the colour they want.
Your proposal is orders of magnitude worse. I can't think of a design that encourages startscumming more than this one, and this is something we want to avoid.

[dpeg]

I don't think the "But startscummers!" is a good argument against this race.

You're wrong.

Absolutely.

Your proposal is orders of magnitude worse. I can't think of a design that encourages startscumming more than this one, and this is something we want to avoid.

But I can!

It's probably best not to go into the details.

[Lasty]

If start-scumming is a problem, perhaps the idea which was floated earlier of allowing players to instead use a menu to customize their race, using some sort of point system. It would require a lot of additional interface, and I'm not sure how easy that is to work into Crawl, but it could provide a fun option potentially.

[Grimm]

That is a neat idea but it is a different game. Not Crawl.

[nicolae]

If start-scumming is a problem, perhaps the idea which was floated earlier of allowing players to instead use a menu to customize their race, using some sort of point system. It would require a lot of additional interface, and I'm not sure how easy that is to work into Crawl, but it could provide a fun option potentially.

A secondary game mode, like Dungeon Sprint, where you get to define your species and background before play.

[varsovie]

That's called programing and is easy to do if your species has no special abilities. (simply change the values of an existing one the compile...)

[Psieye]

That's called programing and is easy to do if your species has no special abilities. (simply change the values of an existing one the compile...)

It sounds like people want a tutorial on how to check-out (download) the source code, which file of that source code to edit to change aptitudes and how to compile (plus where to get a compiler). Though I won't delude myself into thinking such a tutorial will reduce the number of "can I have my race idea integrated into the main game?" threads.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Having a Create-A-Species mode would be interesting and useful, actually. Hardly a priority, sure, but it could let you play whatever crazy concoction your mind can come up with, possibly have the "good random" and "random" options for the "here's some messed up character, try to win" thing, and it could also be used for people to potentially test new species ideas to see whether their amazing ideas are actually amazing in practice or not.

[galehar]

Having a Create-A-Species mode would be interesting and useful, actually.

You can wizmode a human however you like, no need to code a special mode.

[varsovie]

That's called programing and is easy to do if your species has no special abilities. (simply change the values of an existing one the compile...)

It sounds like people want a tutorial on how to check-out (download) the source code, which file of that source code to edit to change aptitudes and how to compile (plus where to get a compiler). Though I won't delude myself into thinking such a tutorial will reduce the number of "can I have my race idea integrated into the main game?" threads.

In fact the tutorial (except the specipic how to creat new species) is already available:
http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt
http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/docs/develop/patch_guide.txt
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git

This makes me think though that a lot of things in CRAWL could easilly be ported from the sources into game files for ease to modding.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Having a Create-A-Species mode would be interesting and useful, actually.

You can wizmode a human however you like, no need to code a special mode.

True, but there's still no "set apts and intrinsics to random" button, which where I'd personally find most of the fun.

[nicolae]

Having a Create-A-Species mode would be interesting and useful, actually.

You can wizmode a human however you like, no need to code a special mode.

True, but there's still no "set apts and intrinsics to random" button, which where I'd personally find most of the fun.

Is there a way to change specific aptitudes in wizmode?

[XuaXua]

A while ago, I suggested that one starter race be more susceptible to mutation with a lean towards positive mutations. I think it was for a proposed goblin race.

I got yelled at because goblins in the game aren't mutants.

So? Who says they can't be?

[njvack]

A while ago, I suggested that one starter race be more susceptible to mutation with a lean towards positive mutations. I think it was for a proposed goblin race.

I got yelled at because goblins in the game aren't mutants.

So? Who says they can't be?

Well... I'd worry more about the potential for "parking in front of a neqoxec is good gameplay" than "goblins aren't mutants." Maybe if the bias only affected mutations from chunks and potions?

There's also no particular reason this needs to be part of a new species; I'm not sure the mechanic is strong enough to support a species by itself. But it could be part of an existing species -- Sludge Elf, maybe?

[XuaXua]

Well... I'd worry more about the potential for "parking in front of a neqoxec is good gameplay" than "goblins aren't mutants." Maybe if the bias only affected mutations from chunks and potions?

Have them take torment damage from acquiring a mutation, then.

And make offensive mutation effects biased towards negative mutations.

For example:

Goblin : +1 Bias (positive bias)
Potions and Contamination : 0 bias.
Neq Mutation and Polymorph Wands : -1 Bias (negative bias)
Shining Eye / Ball of Fire mutation: -2 Bias