weapon brand spells

[eeviac]

FR: they work on any non-artifact, even if the weapon already has a permabrand*.

Would they be too good if they did this? In my experience, I almost never use them outside of skald early game or a single use+vorpalise. This change would make them more flexible, useful all game long, and it would also eliminate that annoying scenario where your HEFE has freezing aura, a vorpal scroll, and a stack of flaming demon blades.


*maybe antimagic should prevent this, for flavor reasons? idk

[Galefury]

Would be nice.

[Davion Fuxa]

One reason against this might be that it takes away some minor decision making.

For Ashenzari worshipers you have less of a decision to make on what weapon to curse, if to curse a weapon.
You no longer have to carry around certain branded weapons in your inventory and thus you have less a decision to make in terms of what inventory you need to take around.
Your Enchant Weapon Scrolls might be only used to buff up one non-artefact weapon, instead of spread around to try and make a flaming weapon more acid resistant or useful for your current dungeon situation.

I don't actually think the spell is that weak into the later parts of the game either. If you don't find a good weapon or if you find a 'good' non-branded weapon then you can use the Temp Brand spells to buff it up for extra damage.

[eeviac]

Eh, I never curse my weapon under Ash and it's pretty rare for me to burn EW scrolls on anything other than my endgame weapon. I'm not sure if taking away the brand inventory management is that big of a deal.

[njvack]

*maybe antimagic should prevent this, for flavor reasons? idk

As long as this isn't a 'get out of distortion unwield free' trick, it sounds cool to me. I could see the antimagic exception, too.

[eeviac]

Hm yeah, hadn't thought about disto unwields. They shouldn't work either.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Prevent Distortion as well as possibly Holy Wrath and Anti-Magic from be affected and I could go for this.

[Davion Fuxa]

this isn't ever an issue with the current inventory system or any alternative that would conceivably make it into crawl within the lifespan of the current development team

You only have 52 slots in your inventory and 2-3 slots devoted to branded weapons can mean a lot to preventing a full inventory where you can't pick up anymore items - its more of an issue for people who don't run with stashes or Jiyva worshipers but I've seen the issue come up where you may not have access to your stash for one reason or another (completion of Labyrinth, you got Abyssed, whatever). Personally myself I like to cart items back to my stash in case I decide I may want to adopt a new playstyle or whatnot, and I like it when I only have to go to one place instead of to some far flung branch.

"spreading enchant scrolls around" is a really bad thing to do, period - why would you ever want two okay weapons instead of one good weapon?

Enchant scrolls don't work on Artefacts, so if your primarily using an Artefact then you might splurge and drop a few Enchants on another weapon that might prove more beneficial for a specific area or against specific monsters; or perhaps two different weapon types offer a different type of playstyle - such as a defensive one coupled with a damaged output one. Enchant Scrolls of course can also fail above +3 enchantments and progressively have higher fail chances as their values increase, and weapons become nearly corrosion immune at +4, corrosion immune at +5. Getting a single weapon strong enough to handle corrosion and then having a couple situation weapons beefed up can be slightly important to melee combat centered characters - especially ones with lessened damage output like those using Shields or Short Blades.

[eeviac]

Enchant only fails above +4, not +3, and the infrequent jelly isn't worth wasting scrolls on a not-endgame weapon. Throw stones, zap wands, use a throw-away weapon, or just walk away.

[jejorda2]

I think it would make sense to not be able to change the brand of a cursed weapon, while we're at it.

Or, for a weaker form of the idea, let flame brand work on a weapon that has been enchanted with freezing aura, but not on a weapon of freezing.

[Galefury]

Please, not so complicated. This can be very simple, and it should be very simple, because there is absolutely no reason to make it complicated. Branding spells overwrite any brand except antimagic. They don't work on artefact weapons. They end on unwield as usual, and distortion unwield simply applies as usual.

[njvack]

I'm with Galefury. I think it'd still be nice if vorpalize would make the new brand permanent, but trying to vorpalize something over disto might reasonably just cause an unwield effect.

[eeviac]

Yes, let vorpal work as normal. My HEFE being stuck with 8 flaming demon blades and 0 freezing is the reason I made this feature request.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I suggested prevent Holy Wrath from being overwritten since Eudemon Blades of Pain don't make sense and it'd be simpler than special casing it with just two spells. It'd be simple, "TSO blessed this weapon so you can't do jack squat to change the brand."

[ebarrett]

I think making the duration on weapon branding spells potentially longer (by giving them a higher power cap) is a better solution if we really want to improve them. I'm not sure if that's really needed, though.

[Psieye]

Perhaps then, what people are really want is to unbrand a permabrand weapon (perhaps with a cost in weapon enchantment to discourage scumming) so you can give it a new brand. Of course this should be disallowed for god-tier brands (holy, anti-magic, pain, disto).

[jejorda2]

Yeah, maybe a scroll of vorpalize weapon should turn a branded weapon into an unbranded one instead of chortling about jabberwocks.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I don't care about being able to permanently rebrand a weapon. That would just leave branding spells where they are at. Being able to temporarily use them on non-artifact branded weapons, with some exceptions, sounds find though.

[Davion Fuxa]

I like the idea Psyieye posed nonetheless though of being able to strip brands from non-artefact weapons; jejorda offers a nice way of doing it too and I think Scroll of Vorpalize Weapon is rare enough that a minor boost like that isn't a bad idea. The only problem I might see is if you use the scroll unwillingly and potentially remove a brand from a weapon with an unidentified scroll; but that is probably easily fixed by making it a choice when the scroll is used - much like Scrolls of Amnesia.

[TwilightPhoenix]

The point of the proposal is to make branding spells useful beyond the point of getting a branded weapon. Allowing you to permanent rebrand a weapon would mean you'd memorize the spell, cast it once, then promptly forget it. The spells would still not be used for anything else. Conversely, with temporary only, you'd have to commit spell slots to the branding spells you want to maintain the flexibility you need, which is a more interesting choice if you ask me.

[njvack]

Allowing you to permanent rebrand a weapon would mean you'd memorize the spell, cast it once, then promptly forget it. The spells would still not be used for anything else.

This comment makes me wonder a bit if the permabranding part of Vorpalize is actually a good feature. Maybe spell brands should be temporary, period, and permanent brands the realm of floor finds and divine intervention?

[palin]

This comment makes me wonder a bit if the permabranding part of Vorpalize is actually a good feature. Maybe spell brands should be temporary, period, and permanent brands the realm of floor finds and divine intervention?

Vorpalize is nice if you find just the right weapon type but it's not branded. I just come close to winning with an executioner's axe vorpalized into chopping, did not find another branded one.

[Davion Fuxa]

The point of the proposal is to make branding spells useful beyond the point of getting a branded weapon. Allowing you to permanent rebrand a weapon would mean you'd memorize the spell, cast it once, then promptly forget it. The spells would still not be used for anything else. Conversely, with temporary only, you'd have to commit spell slots to the branding spells you want to maintain the flexibility you need, which is a more interesting choice if you ask me.

That was the proposal, but the point of it was to solve a problem; psieye gave a solution to the problem with a different suggestion. In any case, rebranding the weapon with Scroll of Vorpalize Weapon would still require you to use Two Scrolls of Vorpalize Weapon; so in the example given of Freezing Aura + 1 Scroll of Vorpalize Weapon + 8 Demon Swords of Flaming, you're still stuck with using Freezing Aura on a Vanilla weapon until you find a second Scroll, and they aren't common.

If we want to make the spell more useful then following what ebarrett might be a better approach; but it would be a question of whether we really want to do that as well in my opinion.

[pikkle]

What about making Vorpalize a Charms spell that makes all current buffs permanent, but cancelable? This might also be a good solution to the permabuffs issue.

[nago]

It sounds like a spell a player would learn, cast one maybe two time and then immediately forget.

[daggaz]

It sounds like a spell a player would learn, cast one maybe two time and then immediately forget.

I for one would be glad for the choice/ability. I play primarily kobold stabbers, and their reliance on the RNG for a decent brand on a small blade is bothersome, to say the least. You can only get so far by playing carefully and taking advantage of the environment and the stabbing mechanic etc.. eventually you get into more and more situations where you are toe to toe with a large HD brute wearing armor, and small blades, no pun intended, just dont cut it. Given that the brand mechanic overall seems to disfavor small blades (another topic, but speed != damage when faced with GDR), it can take forever and a day to find a sabre with a brand (electrocution) good enough to cut thru armor. And then you have to find another weapon for flying demons. Usually all of this happens the day after you die.

So in short, ANY mechanic added to allow user control over the fickle RNG and the selection of weapon brands is a good thing, even if it means I have to learn more spells. (would really like to see some kind of altars where weapons could be perm branded as well).

[sanka]

I play primarily kobold stabbers, and their reliance on the RNG for a decent brand on a small blade is bothersome, to say the least.

Join Kiku/Lugonu or Oka/Trog, or use long blades for fighting, dagger for stabbing.

[daggaz]

That is with Oka. The trouble invariably starts showing up before Oka has managed to gift a decent weapon. Telling a player to switch weapon types is kind of ignoring the issue tho, whereas increasing choice and control over brand types is at least a partial fix.

[njvack]

You can only get so far by playing carefully and taking advantage of the environment and the stabbing mechanic etc.. eventually you get into more and more situations where you are toe to toe with a large HD brute wearing armor, and small blades, no pun intended, just dont cut it.

There are very few monsters that can't be confused and see invisible -- and can't be avoided. Yeah, there's the postgame -- but if you really want to take on Cerebov with short blades, there's Lugonu. Or Warp Weapon.

Excruciating Wounds is another good choice, assuming dudes are already awake.

[Bomanz]

I'm just curious if anyone knows why there is no spell to temporarily add the electrocution brand? Seems to be conspicuously missing?

[crate]

Well right now if you manage to get a temporary elec brand you can make it permanent with ?vorp

Probably if there were an elec-brand spell then that would have to change (it doesn't work on pain or disto, after all).

There's no spell to chaos-brand or antimagic-brand (well, the second wouldn't even make sense thematically) either. And the spell that used to temporarily vorpalise a weapon was removed.

[jejorda2]

I'm just curious if anyone knows why there is no spell to temporarily add the electrocution brand? Seems to be conspicuously missing?

There should be an "electrify" spell that is only found on a rod. Or let it be a level 7 transmutation/air spell, to go with the proverbial sky beast form.

[nicolae]

Well right now if you manage to get a temporary elec brand you can make it permanent with ?vorp

Probably if there were an elec-brand spell then that would have to change (it doesn't work on pain or disto, after all).

I thought that was related to those brands being the five- or six-star gifts of various deities, so being able to just perma-make those brands yourself would take a bit of luster out of those abilities.

[njvack]

Probably if there were an elec-brand spell then that would have to change (it doesn't work on pain or disto, after all).

There's no spell to chaos-brand or antimagic-brand (well, the second wouldn't even make sense thematically) either. And the spell that used to temporarily vorpalise a weapon was removed.

I thought this was because permanent Pain, Distortion, Holy, Chaos, and Antimagic brands are Godly Specials...

[varsovie]

May I suggest that we merge together three spells : Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, and Poison Weapon (and maybe lethal infusion).

Reasons: they are all low level enough (lvl 2 or 3) than any non-trog can cast any one of them before lair, training only charm (useful for late game) and spellcasting. Even with poor duration or %, you only need to spell scum and read ? of vorpalisation. Skald have all three spells in the same book. They give situation specific brand (of -rc monster go for freezing...) and act like any other offensive charm, increase your damage output (over time for poison). Unlike other brand spells, they do not bring a lot of tactical deep (distortion) or have any synergy with a spell school (excruciating wound).

So those spells acts like a no-brainer (buff) but tedious (not on all) and easy spells. So or you learn all for the same cost and use them accordingly (or vorpalise), or you don't gives a damn about any because you found a better branded weapon.

My suggestion, merge them, giving a random chance of having flame, freeze or poison aura (and why not plain vorpal), call it Elemental Brand and get it charm only, lvl 4. This way it's not a freeby brand spell and isn't always a grantee buff against your current foo. And find more interesting spells for skald.

[BlackSheep]

Spell... scum?

[TwilightPhoenix]

Oh there's a hydra. Cast brand. Did I get flame? Nope, so run and wait it out or recast if allowed. Repeat until I get flame, run out of mana, or the hydra scares me away.

Yeah, that sounds less fun.

I think I'm leaning towards remove Vorpal Scrolls (even if you find ten of them, you'll only use one or two of them in any typical game), allow brand spells to temporarily rebrand a non-artifact weapon with some possible exceptions or special cases (Distortion always has unwield effects, even if temporarily rebranded), possibly readd plain vorpal brand spell, and possibly add electric brand spell.