Question on Haste

[sanka]

It's more of a question than a proposal: I'd like to hear more experienced players and/or devs opinion.

How would it affect the game if haste is entirely removed (for the player)? I mean simply removing the Haste spell, removing speed potions and remove wand of hasting - no more changes. No change on berserk, maybe adjust Finesse if Okawaru would be too strong then.

I know that middle/late game would be significantly harder, but would it be positive or negative on general gameplay? (I myself think that I would enjoy the game more.)

Thanks for your feedback.

[ebarrett]

Chei buff because not being able to haste would not be a disadvantage anymore (he'd still be bad for other reasons), bad player buff because always forgetting to haste would not be a disadvantage anymore (they'd still be bad for other reasons). Double buff to bad players worshipping Chei!

[varsovie]

Wand and pot are OK in my opinion because they are a limited resource.

The haste (player) spell though...

It have been nerved a while ago, it was a 50% boost prior to crawl 0.7, now it's only 33%.

It still a big buff when the only cost is some nutrition and glow.

Anyway remove it will only make extended (and maybe late) somewhat harder.

The main problem I have with this spell is that it's very powerful for anyone, but dull to use at the same time.

[sanka]

Chei buff because not being able to haste would not be a disadvantage anymore (he'd still be bad for other reasons), bad player buff because always forgetting to haste would not be a disadvantage anymore (they'd still be bad for other reasons). Double buff to bad players worshipping Chei!

Thanks, but I'd rather like to know if you think you would enjoy the game more, or not? Would crawl be a better or worse game? (Assuming you do not play Chei, if you do not like her...)

[crate]

Unless you want to redo all of extended Haste should stay as a spell. Extended more or less assumes you have haste spell ... there are characters who can do without it but you will be making things much harder than they have to be unless you have a wand and lots of recharging.

It should 100% stay as an effect.

[Cedor]

Haste spell and haste effect (from pots and wand) can be differenciated, and the spell nerfed (or the effet powerred, with a loot chance reduced for the items)?

[Moose]

I would like to see the Haste spell removed as well. I think that any one spell like this that is (according to a previous post in this thread) nearly required for endgame needs to be removed. If need be, the endgame can be adjusted (or not) to accommodate for the added difficulty.

If one makes it to the endgame, chances are that they have a wand of hasting and a goodly number of recharging scrolls on hand, and can make more judicious use of their hasting.

[Davion Fuxa]

I wouldn't necessarily be for Haste's removal, but I think as it stands it is just another one of those Charm spells that simply adds too much benefit for what it does. Really, I think the big problem here is that the Charms Spell School needs re-balancing. I'm not just talking about adjusting the spells either, but rather the spell levels required for spells so that not every player other then those worshiping Trog is branching into the School.

[rebthor]

I wouldn't necessarily be for Haste's removal, but I think as it stands it is just another one of those Charm spells that simply adds too much benefit for what it does. Really, I think the big problem here is that the Charms Spell School needs re-balancing. I'm not just talking about adjusting the spells either, but rather the spell levels required for spells so that not every player other then those worshiping Trog is branching into the School.

??good charms

charms

[njvack]

Charms are tricky; they're like hexes except they affect every monster and don't check any form of MR -- hasting yourself is like slowing everyone else in the game. I honestly don't know an elegant way to design around that.

[JeffQyzt]

You could increase the side effects. Currently haste applies a relatively minor side effect - gradual glow accumulation. It could be made to have other side effects that make it more situational. For instance

• It could behave more like Berserk and have a slow/fatigue effect afterward (but without the +HP/+dam/+str/reduced options effect, so they remain differentiated.)
• It could be like Borgnjor's or Deep Dwarf recharging and reduce max HP/SP when cast, so that you have a total game limit built in.
• It could do stat drain (e.g. str/dex get 'overtaxed' from rapid use) that would have a medium term limiting factor (vs. short-term of glow or "after-berserk" and long-term of max HP/SP.)
• You could add opponents for which speed is a disadvantage - something like a Chei worshiper.
• You could add terrain where haste is disadvantageous - nothing currently implemented, but - as a brainstorm - consider an area with narrow passages filled with spiky thorns. You would take damage per move proportional to your movement speed (might need to implement a "move slowly" command...)

[palin]

It could add a fixed amount of contamination when it expires, so if you've some other glow, you are asking for a dangerous effect...

[ebarrett]

Just make haste level 8.

[Igxfl]

You could increase the side effects. Currently haste applies a relatively minor side effect - gradual glow accumulation. It could be made to have other side effects that make it more situational. For instance

• It could behave more like Berserk and have a slow/fatigue effect afterward (but without the +HP/+dam/+str/reduced options effect, so they remain differentiated.)
• It could be like Borgnjor's or Deep Dwarf recharging and reduce max HP/SP when cast, so that you have a total game limit built in.
• It could do stat drain (e.g. str/dex get 'overtaxed' from rapid use) that would have a medium term limiting factor (vs. short-term of glow or "after-berserk" and long-term of max HP/SP.)
• You could add opponents for which speed is a disadvantage - something like a Chei worshiper.
• You could add terrain where haste is disadvantageous - nothing currently implemented, but - as a brainstorm - consider an area with narrow passages filled with spiky thorns. You would take damage per move proportional to your movement speed (might need to implement a "move slowly" command...)

I think the anti-Haste terrain and monsters would be too special case. Haste would then be a spell you use constantly except near a few occasional features, which would probably only happen slightly more often than not using Fly because you're near Gastronok. The stat drain, on the other hand, is too harsh. Except perhaps for tasks like taking down Antaeus when you're almost done anyway, etc, Haste would see almost no use.

I do like the the fatigue and stat drain ideas, though.
A fatigue/slow effect would make it much like Berserk -- something you should only use when you need some extra help but are sure you can finish things before it wears off. This is a big reason why Berserk tends to see less abuse than Haste. Note that an Amulet of Rage is not exactly a required endgame item, and good players following Trog tend to berserk only occasionally.

The addition of stat drain would of course be countered by a Ring of Sustain Abilities, but perhaps requiring players to burn a jewelry slot for the privilege of using Haste with impunity would help a little, forcing a choice between more resistances and less Haste vs. more Haste and fewer resistances.

[Bloax]

You could increase the side effects..

• It could be like Borgnjor's or Deep Dwarf recharging and reduce max HP/SP when cast, so that you have a total game limit built in.

You could increase the penalty for great ideas, like to have a hand chopped off.

Revivification is used very sparsely (in fact I don't think I know anyone who has used it more than a couple of times throughout their career?).
And unlike haste which just makes you faster, revivification fully heals you. Down to 5 hp after some brutal occurrence? No problem! One cast and you're good as new.

You can't really compare them, and even suggesting it is just asking for trouble.

[sanka]

JeffQyzt did not suggested the same amount of cost. If Haste (the spell) would cost 1 max hp every time used, I think it still would be a strong spell I think. Just you would need to think a little bit more when to use.

[galbolle]

How about haste makes you fragile, i.e. the opposite of DD damage shaving: any incoming damage is increased. This would make its use more of a gamble, and can be thematically justified as "your body loses some of its substance in order to be faster".

[JeffQyzt]

Note that I'm not saying that those are the best options, but I'm pointing these out as topics of consideration to hopefully spur some conversation about *how* to nerf haste, rather than just pro/con (which everyone comes in with a preconceived notion of anyway.)

That said (and without suggesting that this is the best nerfing option), yes, it's clear that incurring the same maxhp cost as Borgnjor's would overly-restrict haste. As sanka points out, you don't necessarily need to use the same cost though. You could use a fixed -1 maxhp, or you could make it a percentage chance of maxhp removal. For instance (pulling numbers out of the air), if casting haste had a 50% chance of reducing maxhp by 1 each time it was cast, that might be a sufficient deterrent to limit its universal use (though I actually think that it might not, at least for non-felids/spriggans/deep elves.)

Increasing spell level as per ebarrett is also interesting, and a lot simpler if you just want to make the decision "do I get haste or not?" I think as a downside, it might just make characters who plan to go endgame grind charms more...and once you have it, the decision as to whether to cast it is essentially the same as it is currently.

[Igxfl]

What if we added another spell school to Haste? Reflavoring it to Charms/Trans, Charms/Hexes, or even Charms/Necro would make it less easy to splash into.

[Galefury]

Well, one could also look at this from a different angle: Yes, Haste is powerful. Yes, nearly every 15-runer should learn Haste, and good players already do this. This is not a problem in itself: any 15-rune player also needs some way to do damage, defensive skills, some way to get out of bad situations, etc. The problem is that there is only one infinite source of Haste in the game, while there are lots of infinite sources of damage and damage mitigation. There are several ways to eliminate this lack of player choice: nerf the Haste spell (to be much worse than limited sources of the Haste effect so it's less often optimal to learn it), remove the Haste spell (players also don't get a choice, it just becomes "never get Haste" instead of "always get Haste"), or provide more sources of infinite Haste (so the player has several ways to get what he needs).

Nerfing or removing haste would make the extended endgame much harder. Do we want that? If yes, easy, nerf or remove the Haste spell. If not, there is no need to even discuss nerfing or removing Haste. What else can be done to address this lack of player choice? Reintroduce Haste as an invocation for some god, possibly a new one? Evocable haste on a misc item? A non-stacking near-duplicate of Haste in a different spell school, with different disadvantages, like for example a naturally hasted transmutation form? There are a lot of possibilities. Obviously all of them are powercreepy.

[Davion Fuxa]

I think the issue is less about endgame difficulty and more regarding the use of the Haste spell overall. If removing/nerfing Haste makes the endgame too difficult then the Endgame needs to be adjusted, Haste shouldn't be kept 'as is' just for it.

[Galefury]

Easier said than done. I highly doubt that "adjusting the endgame" is something that is going to happen. It is pretty huge.

If anything were actually going to happen it would probably be some kind of Haste nerf.

Anyway, I don't think people care much about the current Haste situation, after all it really isn't so bad. So most likely Haste is going to stay the same, at least for some time.

[dpeg]

Haste has been nerfed twice: speed boost reduction and spell level increase, if memory serves right.

This is not an indication for anything, in my opinion. Tomb of Dorohkloe got nerfed twice and then removed, but other parts sit happily in the game after their nerf.

[crate]

I could see haste spell being bumped up to level 7, which would change it from "often learn for 3 rune game and always for extended" into "less often learn for 3 rune game and still probably always for extended". I am not sure if this really means much.

If you remove haste spell you need to make very large changes to large portions of the game to compensate and I am not sure that you actually end up with a better game in the end. A three rune game would not need major adjustments, but in a three rune game--especially if the total xp available continues to be reduced, which I think should happen--learning haste is a non-insignificant xp cost, and it is already sometimes not worthwhile to learn the spell: you could for instance instead learn shadow creatures and still have consumable haste (actually shadow creatures is a noticeably smaller investment than haste spell, and is actually stronger for many characters).

There are plenty of other spells that fall into the "every character wants to learn this spell (as long as you don't get god penance)" category, if that's what bothers you about haste. Here are some: apportation, repel missiles, regeneration, swiftness. There are others that are actually more like haste in that you learn the spell or you use an item to replace it: control teleport, blink. In fact all of these spells are even more commonly useful than haste spell is: they are much easier to cast (less investment), and several of them have no consumable that replicates the effect (haste has wand and speed potions; there is no swiftness potion).

[TwilightPhoenix]

Screw these forums randomly logging me out for no reason, I just lost a nice reply. And I'm too annoyed to write it all back out.

So, TL:DR version.

Any spell that virtually every character wants to learn, if given the chance, is a problem. Especially if the removal of this spell were to so adversely affect a portion of the game it'd have to be entirely readjusted. Some of these spells are more problematic than others (uncontrolled Blink is mostly okay since it can get you killed just as easily, cTele is not in my eyes). Haste is the elephant in the room since it gives rather significant bonuses to your offensive and defensive capabilities which, when combined, greatly increase any non-Trog non-Chei's character survivability in any given situation. It doesn't matter how the character is built. Spell user, melee fighter, stabber, or what have you, Haste is a massive improvement for all of them. I mean, even Swiftness has some penalties that'd make at least some characters not want it and cTele at least requires you find a reliable source of Blink to make good use of it.

[crate]

Well I know at least one member of the devteam (elliptic) is strongly opposed to redoing the entire extended endgame to account for not having haste, so if you want the spell to be removed I think you will have to do it yourself.

Personally I would much rather see swiftness cease to exist than haste ... now that fulsome and evap are gone I think swiftness is probably the spell whose existence I dislike the most.

[galehar]

Just make haste level 8.

Why not 7? Do you seriously think it would be more balanced at 8 than 7 or are you suggesting 8 in the hope that we'll settle for 7?

[evilmike]

I could see haste spell being bumped up to level 7, which would change it from "often learn for 3 rune game and always for extended" into "less often learn for 3 rune game and still probably always for extended". I am not sure if this really means much.

If you remove haste spell you need to make very large changes to large portions of the game to compensate and I am not sure that you actually end up with a better game in the end. A three rune game would not need major adjustments, but in a three rune game--especially if the total xp available continues to be reduced, which I think should happen--learning haste is a non-insignificant xp cost, and it is already sometimes not worthwhile to learn the spell: you could for instance instead learn shadow creatures and still have consumable haste (actually shadow creatures is a noticeably smaller investment than haste spell, and is actually stronger for many characters).

There are plenty of other spells that fall into the "every character wants to learn this spell (as long as you don't get god penance)" category, if that's what bothers you about haste. Here are some: apportation, repel missiles, regeneration, swiftness. There are others that are actually more like haste in that you learn the spell or you use an item to replace it: control teleport, blink. In fact all of these spells are even more commonly useful than haste spell is: they are much easier to cast (less investment), and several of them have no consumable that replicates the effect (haste has wand and speed potions; there is no swiftness potion).

This post is pretty much spot-on. I'd rather just leave haste as a level 6 spell, really.

There are other ways of balancing things, if this is desired. For example, maybe Haste could make you more vulnerable to the Slow spell (let's say Slow has no MR check if you're hasted). Note that this idea is untested and really hasn't even been discussed at all... it's just an example of the sort of approach I'd rather take.

[Galefury]

I was serious about adding more infinite sources of Haste btw. Making everyone train the same spell school every 15-rune game is bad, and giving people the option to skip charms (or even to skip spells entirely, although such a version of haste would have to come with significant disadvantages unless its from a god) would most likely be better.

One interesting nerf would be moving it from charms to some other school. Lots of other spells that are always really good to have are charms, and distributing the "everyone must get this" spells a bit more widely instead of having most of them in a single school might be good. For example it could become a poison spell (and poison you instead of contaminating you, healing the poison also removes the haste of course). Or a tmut spell.

[dassem]

I was serious about adding more infinite sources of Haste btw. Making everyone train the same spell school every 15-rune game is bad, and giving people the option to skip charms (or even to skip spells entirely, although such a version of haste would have to come with significant disadvantages unless its from a god) would most likely be better.

One interesting nerf would be moving it from charms to some other school. Lots of other spells that are always really good to have are charms, and distributing the "everyone must get this" spells a bit more widely instead of having most of them in a single school might be good. For example it could become a poison spell (and poison you instead of contaminating you, healing the poison also removes the haste of course). Or a tmut spell.

I like this idea.
I can see good arguments for increasing the level, since haste might be more comparable to icestorm than to freezing cloud (for example) but, in a way that's just quibbling over details and avoids the central problem.
My thought (which has been touched on above) on reading this thread was that haste should come with some other de-buff. You could make the argument that haste should make you more insubstantial (reduce HP), less coordinated at that speed (reduce combat or spellcasting prowess), or because of its power it might cancel out other effects (such as other buffs or transformations).

A good comparison is to ring of flames, which is L7 and quite useful, but has some significant drawbacks. Thinking of Chei worshippers who probably find cblink even more useful than others already do, one potential drawback could be to restrict translocations while hasted, limiting apportation, blinking or teleporting. ("Sorry, you are moving too fast."). So, yes, you could haste up before taking on that Pan Lord, but doing so would rather limit your escape options should things go wrong...

Anyway, I like the idea of it being a tmut, particularly if it is exclusive to some other tmuts.

[TwilightPhoenix]

The poison solution is interesting. Could even allow for stronger levels of being poisoned haste you even more. From the spell, an adder biting you would just poison you more without boosting speed. It could lead to some interesting choices to how much poison do you want to risk in exchanged for speed? Know you're in a fatal situation but still are at near full HP, do you severely poison yourself with haste so you can get out of there ASAP, only lightly so you don't hurt yourself too badly in case you take a torment/hellfire barrage in the escape, or not at all because the damage at any amount would be too risky?

It wouldn't have to be poison, of course. It could be the magical energies coursing through you consuming your life force or some such.


But yeah, Haste needs to either be weakened, made only available via non-spell methods, or have a real drawback like Ring of Flames, Borg's Revification, Death's Door, Necromutation, Statue Form, etc.

[XuaXua]

Haste: Everything works faster for the character. Effectiveness of regeneration, poison, rot, hunger.

[ebarrett]

Just make haste level 8.

Why not 7? Do you seriously think it would be more balanced at 8 than 7 or are you suggesting 8 in the hope that we'll settle for 7?

I hate to explain the joke, but he posted that because haste was lowered from level 8 to level 6 in an old version.

Actually I did not know that haste was once level 8, I just honestly think that bumping it to level 7 wouldn't make much of a difference in how many characters can reasonably learn it, some extreme cases of horrid aptitudes aside. Which is to say, yes, I think the spell could perfectly be put out of reach of most characters.

By the way, I also wouldn't mind seeing it disappearing as a spell - people tend to overvalue haste in nonthreatening situations anyway. It'd be much more interesting as a limited tactical resource (potions/wands) and/or some new exclusive god power/evocable property (preferrably on some new base amulet type that also has ++contam, of the new kind, that makes you funny when you remove it - I'd also make it relatively expensive in skill cost to be usable, as far as evocation success rates go).

And for the record, I don't think any changes would have to be made to the extended endgame. I find these areas extremely well designed, but they also tend to be pretty much a victory parade for most characters that decide to go there anyway - indirectly buffing extended by putting some soft caps on haste usage would actually be a very elegant adjustment.

[Moose]

Though I've never managed a 15-rune win, from what I can tell, for seasoned players, it's not all that harder than a normal win, just longer. Ie, great players can win a 15-runer just as easily as a 3 runer, it just takes more time.

Perhaps the removal of castable haste would be a difficulty bump the extended endgame could use to make it more challenging? One could still keep wands of hasting, and potions for the absolute emergency scenarios.

Given that I've never won a 15-rune game, is it actually possible to win (Trog worshippers excepted) without castable haste? If so, would you think that it's more exciting and challenging, or does the lack of haste make it tedious and grueling?

[TwilightPhoenix]

I almost 15-rune won a hasteless HOFi of TSO. A got hit with a nasty mutation through my rMut and decided I needed to go back to my stash for cure mut. Went to the Abyss to leave (distortion wielding/unwielding was the fastest method at the time) and made dumb moves against an Ancient Lich there. Would have pulled a win otherwise, was already at 13 runes, and it wasn't too hard so long as I kept as few torment/hellfire spammers on the screen as possible (if two Fiends appeared, I usually bailed even though I could potentially two-shot them)

I also had a 12 rune Felid who I killed out of boredom in Pan, also no Haste. Though this was back in Felid trunk where Felids were silly strong.

But regardless, extended is perfectly doable without Haste. You just have to assess threats differently to account for no haste.


For the record, I do have my 15 rune win (and he did have Haste, but I didn't use it all that much except against really nasty foes/situations). And until extended becomes more varied and interesting, he'll probably be my only 15-rune winner

[crate]

It's entirely possible to win a 15 rune game and never get the "Fast" status effect. I am pretty sure minmay has done this (allrune mube of trog without finding a haste wand). It is not something I would advise you do.

[Psieye]

The problem I see with the haste spell is that people spam it for anything remotely dangerous. A fiend? Haste. A unique? Haste. A titan? Sure why not, haste. That it's an "always want if I'm allowed" buff spell is not as big a concern as "there is no reason ever to not cast it all the time".

My solution would be along the lines of "every 20 applications of Haste, you end up with 1 notch of perma-contam", optionally with "you can cancel Haste at will so you get less temporary contam, but it still counts towards your perma-contam count".


I'm surprised nobody's mentioned spamming Haste on your minions. With CBoE and high evo, there is no reason not to have an army of hasted big things before a known big fight.

[Galefury]

People do that for every other useful buff, too.

[njvack]

It's Goddamn tedious to haste more than about two allies.

I'm still groggy, so this idea is probably crap, but: what if haste also hasted d(n) enemies (where n is the number of visible enemies) in LOS? It'd still be useful to cast before something dangerous, but you'd need to deal with LOS issues or risk hasting your threats. If you wanna make it even a little less good, partially weight the choice by XP value.

[roctavian]

I'd agree with the sentiment that at any given time, given the option to haste or not to haste, it's always better to have it on.
So far in this thread, we've discussed the countermeasures of 1) make haste harder to cast and 2) have "internal" penalties like causing glow or statrot.

What if there were monsters or environmental hazards that made haste less desirable in more circumstances? Monsters that use slouch would be a boring solution, but something like it might be interesting.
What about a late-game type of enemy that "copies" buffs from the player and applies them to itself, or to other enemies?

(while we're at it, I think that ebarrett is on to something with the haste-as-amulet/god power bit. If Crawl didn't have haste, and someone suggested it now as a new feature, I'm pretty sure people would say it would be powerful enough to be a high-level god ability or other such limited resource)

[Lasty]

I think the various internal penalties come in two flavors: 1) can be managed to avoid serious damage, and 2) can't be managed to avoid serious damage. The problem with the former is that they get managed most of the time and thus are meaningless, and the problem with the latter is that they tend to mean that you get to effectively cast Haste x number of times per game, where x may or may not be 0.

I think the various proposals related to adding more details to the haste status are better, since they imply that it's a status that isn't simply good to have on as much as possible. I would favor having Haste give you a percentage debuff to damage and to spell power -- perhaps a debuff equal to the speed increase you get. The reason I favor this is that you'd get more actions, but the actions which affect your opponents w/o using up consumables and without just helping escape are commensurately less effective.

If you need a flavored way to justify it, you could say that moving quickly takes energy, and that's energy which isn't being directed into the power of your blows or into your magical spells.

[ebarrett]

For the last couple days I have been thinking "hey a (possibly substantial) penalty to accuracy would a good detrimental side effect to add and it would also teach people that accuracy is a thing that exists", but then anyone with bighuge AoE spells or TSO would just laugh at that anyway

[danr]

I think there's a bit of a gap in the overall analysis in this thread.

The fundamental alleged problem with Haste is two-fold:
a) It is so useful that virtually every player should and will get it, AND
b) The end-game is balanced based on assumption a)

I'm reading lots of proposals about nerfing Haste but that actually only exacerbates a) as long as b) is true because it will only make the endgame that much more challenging and thus make it that much more imperative to get not only Haste but any other possible buff.

For the record, I guess I'm not one of the good players because only recently have I realized that I should be trying to get Haste whenever I can.

[danr]

Here's another proposal.

Assuming that Haste is just about a requirement for doing the extended end-game, and that therefore virtually all good players will try to get it with all their characters, maybe it could just be built into the game in a way.

E.g.:
- Player movement speed could be boosted as a function of XL
- Player combat speed could be boosted (further) as a function of Fighting skill
- Spellcasting speed could be boosted as a function of Spellcasting skill
- Other actions speed could be boosted as a function of other applicable skills such as Evocations or Invocations.

Then everyone can get the benefit of "Hasted" action in the endgame.

I dunno, probably a dumb idea without a lot more development.

[ebarrett]

probably a dumb idea

Yes, because it does the exact opposite of what is being attempted here - the spell is problematic because it is too cheap (in cost and consequences) for the benefits it gives, so your proposal is.... to just give it more or less for free to everyone? Not sure what logic you're following here, if we can even call whatever it is "logic".

[nicolae]

For the last couple days I have been thinking "hey a (possibly substantial) penalty to accuracy would a good detrimental side effect to add and it would also teach people that accuracy is a thing that exists", but then anyone with bighuge AoE spells or TSO would just laugh at that anyway

What if it was combined with an EV penalty?

[Tiber]

Assuming that Haste is just about a requirement for doing the extended end-game,

Haste is really, really good, but it's not even close to a requirement. Even when I get haste, I tend to under-use it. Heck, I've killed all the Hell/Pan Lords with a Naga of Chei and no Necromutation or Storm spell. Haste needs a better downside, but the devs have done a great job in that there's no one play-style in the game that's required to win, even with 15-runes.