New Species - Werewolf - Focus on Keeping Felids

[Davion Fuxa]

IMPORTANT NOTE

I've posted an entry for my designed Werewolf in the Code and Development Wiki. Check Werewolf Proposal by DavionFuxa for it.

Feel free to post comments and feedback here in this thread to help me improve the design further - specifically around the idea of special abilities to make the Werewolf Unique, Interesting, and Different rom the other species.

**************

Browsing the Felid Overhaul/Removal thread, it seems like it might be a good idea to include a similar species to Felids but of a different nature. This thread focuses on the creation of a new species that can run alongside Felids rather then replacing them in their entirety.

Note that I'm not talking about Werebeasts as much as I'm just talking about a straight up hapless fool cursed with lycanthropy and permanently turned into a ravenous killing machine.

Werewolf

Werewolves are unfortunate souls that have been cursed with lycanthropy and are forced to wander in a beast like form. Twisted and deformed from their former selves and never able to return to what they once were, they wander in a tormented filled rage that they are only too happy to unleash on anything that crosses their path. Make no mistake though, they still retain some sentience.

As one can expect the process of being turned into a werewolf improves their strength and dexterity, though it comes with a price of their intelligence. Covered in fur with tough skin underneath, baring sharp teeth and razor sharp claws, they move at lightening speed using their acute senses to hunt down even invisible prey, and are able to regenerate from minor injuries that might be inflicted upon them. While considered a curse to them as well, they are incapable of mutating due to being locked into their current forms. Their evil forms are also somewhat resistant to Fire, and quite resistance to Cold and Negative Energy.

For all their impressive strengths however, they are quite vulnerable to Silver and Holy effects. They are unable to wear equipment besides Capes and while they can hold weapons they are unable to wield them properly due to their now paw shaped hands - though they can still throw them at people and with some effort can equip Shields on their arms. Rings as well are unable to fit onto their paw like hands as well. Having the eyes of a canine their eyesight isn't all that good though they can still read Scrolls or Memorize spells. Due to the inability to mutate, they are unable to use Transmutation skills to augment themselves. On top of all this they tend to have a higher metabolism.

Innate Abilities

You are vulnerable to Silver Brand weapons
You suffer increased damage from Holy Based attacks
You are are somewhat inherently resistant: rF+, rC+, rN++,
You cannot wear any type of equipment except shields, cloaks and amulets
You cannot properly wield weapons in combat apart from throwing them
You can smell and hear the presence of nearby enemies (Heightened Senses 3)
You have razor sharp teeth (Sharp Teeth 3)
You have sharp claws jetting out of your paw-like hands (Claws 3)
You have tough skin (Tough Skin 2)
You are covered in thick fur (Fur 3)
Your current mutations are irrevocably fixed, and you can mutate no more (Mutation Resistance 3)
You cover ground quickly (Speed 1)
Your vision is extremely blurry (Blurry Vision 1)
Your digestive system is highly specialized to digest meat. (Carnivore 1)
Werewolves can tolerate rotten meat if hungry or worse (Saprovore 1)
You have a fast metabolism (Fast Metabolism 1)
Your natural rate of healing is unusually fast (Regeneration 1)

Restricted spells : Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Lethal Infusion, Warp Weapon, Excruciating Wounds, Poison Weapon, Sure Blade, Beastly Appendage, Stoneskin, Passwall, Spider Form, Ice Form, Blade Hands, Statue Form, Dragon Form, Necromutation.

Other Restrictions :
Can't worship Beogh, Elyvilon, The Shining One, or Zin

While Werewolves may wield weapons, they are unable to use them properly in combat. Attempting to do so in combat results in the usually ‘Are you sure’ question and a far weaker attack.

Werewolves may wear shields but it takes them twice as long to equip them then other species

Things of Note :
-Transmutation spells can’t be used to change their beastly qualities to have stone skin or pass through a solid rock wall, and as such these spells can’t be cast. However, there is an exception to this rule being Alistair’s Intoxication, which they can cast with the added bonus of it being unable to confuse them.
-Due to them being unable to properly wield weapons, use of the charm brand spells that enchant weapons are not casta-ble by werewolves. While the werewolf can wield the weapons, he is unable to effectively use them and must rely on his claws to do the job

Level Bonuses

Werewolves gain 1 Strength or 1 Dexterity every 3 levels
Werewolves have 20% more HP then average
Werewolves have 30% less MP then average
Werewolves gain 4 Magic Resistance per level

Aimed for Preferred and Restricted Backgrounds

Werewolves prefer to be Fighters, Monks, Berserkers, Abyssal Knight, Death Knight, Enchanter, Conjurer, Fire Elementalist, Ice Elementalist, Air Elementalist

Werewolves are restricted from becoming Priests, Healers, or Transmuters

Statistics on Start

Strength - 8
Dexterity - 8
Intelligence - 4

Werewolves are Medium sized
All Werewolves start with a Meat Ration instead of a Bread Ration

Skill Aptitudes

Fighting +2
Short Blades N/A
Long Blades N/A
Axes N/A
Maces & Flails N/A
Polearms N/A
Staves N/A
Unarmed Combat +4

Throwing -4
Slings N/A
Bows N/A
Crossbows N/A

Armour N/A
Dodging +3
Stealth +2
Stabbing +2
Shields -2
Traps & Doors -4* (Trolls should get their aptitude bumped up to -3 else make Werewolves -5)

Fire Magic -1
Ice Magic 0
Air Magic 1
Earth Magic -2
Poison Magic -4

Spellcasting -3
Conjurations +2
Hexes +1
Charms +2
Summonings -3
Necromancy -2
Translocations -3
Transmutation -4

Invocations 0
Evocations -4

Experience 110%

Unique Things for the Werewolf:

Resistances to reduce damage

Basically, as a way to equalize difficulty for the Werewolf, give it resistances to help it out. In my design as well I don't have him using Rings, so getting resistances up would be much harder as well. I have only some basic resistances but it could be expanded to include others (rPoison, rAcid, rElec) with the current ones being either reduced or kept as needed. Fur 3 as well could be reduced to Fur 2 depending on how resistances get balanced, and Damage Shaving could be the ultimate defense that could be given to the Werewolf if desired.

Heightened Sense

For the werewolf this would be a new mutation that is unique to them, called Heightened Senses. It would basically be Antennae except better because it doesn't cause you headgear problems.

Movement Speed

Right now I have Werewolves starting out with the Speed 1 Mutation, but this could be upgraded to 2. I realize that faster speed obviously makes it far easier for them to run away from enemies but since I've made every other escape option so difficult, maybe it won't be so bad giving them at least that one option to run away; especially since later enemies can get their shots off at range while your running away with no armor.

Claws

Dropping Claws 3 to Claws 2 would diminish the Werewolf's damage output and help differentiate the Werewolf further from Trolls, in case it is felt that the Werewolf is too similar to them..

Update Notes

October 23/2012: If this is a good idea I'll update this first post. Right now I'm just aiming to get my ideas into a thread and haven't fully thought out balancing, just concept.
October 24/2012: I did a more detailed up-to-date relook at the werewolf. Still needs balancing but the idea is to simply work something that includes less of what people don't want and also shows a more complete picture.
October 25/2012: Due to Twilight posting a proposal I've differentiated mine and I've done some more balancing as well.
October 26/2012: I edited in changes to make them the first species not to use Rings and gave them Capes
October 27/2012: I included Backgrounds that Werewolf would be aimed to play with and edited other odds and ends for the design.

[nicolae]

You can't wear equipment but you can make use of consumables, mostly - the Angry Mutation or the Blurry Vision are there to slightly balance being able to use wands and stuff.

Blurry Vision also makes it much harder to successfully read scrolls, though.

haven't fully thought out balancing

Clearly, these seem like Trolls but worse in every way, since trolls don't have berserkitis and can still use things.

[Deimos]

Yea, currently they look pretty weak. A couple things probably need to go; I'd lower down Blurry Vision a notch, get rid of Berserkeritis, and possibly even go for Carnivore 3.

I do think with a little tweaking this could be more interesting then Felids, but that's mostly because felids are a boring, railroaded species that aren't allowed to use pretty much anything and supply you with plenty of terribly dumb deaths. The whole concept of another "beast" type species is fun, but Werewolves themselves seem a little generic.

I've not got much constructive to say, good luck!

[Davion Fuxa]

Looking at my post I note that I probably should have also included some possible concepts for the Werewolf instead of just an overall format. Anyhow, in regards to what I do got, the main idea for what I'm proposing would be to have a Beast character that is nothing like the other Fast Species (Felid, Centaur, or Spriggan) while also making them distinct from Ogres and Trolls and expanding on some of the other aspects found in other characters such as the Demonspawns Evil Nature and expanding on other concepts unique for it.

Some things I would want the avoid the Werewolf being able to do is employ the Hit & Run Tactics you might find with Spriggans, Centaurs, and Felids; while also avoiding the perilously fate of become a Troll-lite type of character as well. It is also a Werewolf too so with keeping with RPG tradition and due to Silver being something found in game. At the same time I am also hoping to satisfy some of the wants from being in the Felid Overhaul/Removal thread - without of course turning it into a character that makes it too similar to Trolls or Ogres (like letting it use equipment).

The way I see it, the best way of designing the race:

1)Make it something entirely different from anything else
2)Make them similar to everything else but distinct in how they play
3)Make them bland, boring, and really no different then any of the other races except for the inability to equip anything

If it isn't obvious, the above design was mostly going for number 1) on the list - that being having a character that 'wakes up and attracts the level'. Monsters are probably going to be coming in your direction to investigate what the hell is doing all the howling when you uncontrollable howl close enough to them and your going to dealing with entire groups of enemies most of the time as opposed to other strategies people use to deal with lots of mobs (IE, luring out 1 or 2 enemies from a group and slowly whittling down their numbers)

At the same time, I also want to try and include a different playstyle regardless of how the Werewolf is made - the purpose of the Angry 1 Mutation for example is entirely to force the Werewolf to play as a 'Hit & Commit' character to help differentiate it from the other Fast Species; though a better way of doing this may be just to focus more on keeping the Blurry Vision Mutation and giving them -4 Translocation along with -4 Spellcasting.

Anyhow, part of the reason I didn't post a complete makeup for a race was to get ideas on what people might be looking for - maybe what people want is really not just a character that plays similarly to a Felid but also to a Troll or Ogre - IE, a character with restricted equipment slots, capability of using wands and other consumables, faster speed, some sort of spellcasting focus, and decent constitution. If that's so that I'll just focus on the 3rd option and you'll see me design a race without or with less of the Angry, Screaming, or Blurry Vision Mutations and more centered around being a different flavor but still as bland and boring as a Hill Orc, a Merfolk, Tengu, or any of the other characters listed from Demigod up.

[Kate]

Probably giving angry, screaming and blurry vision to a "bland and boring race" doesn't make it into an interesting race, just a bad one. If you want to come up with something new and exciting I would suggest focusing on new ideas to differentiate it instead. Also, I would imagine that the easiest way to avoid it being able to run away from things like Centaurs/Felids/Spriggans can would just be to not make it fast.

[nicolae]

At the same time, I also want to try and include a different playstyle regardless of how the Werewolf is made - the purpose of the Angry 1 Mutation for example is entirely to force the Werewolf to play as a 'Hit & Commit' character to help differentiate it from the other Fast Species; though a better way of doing this may be just to focus more on keeping the Blurry Vision Mutation and giving them -4 Translocation along with -4 Spellcasting.

So in other words: Not content to simply make melee combat a pain in the ass with Anger 1, you've also made spellcasting a complete no-go option. Ranged is out since they can hardly use anything. You'd basically have to use the hit and run tactics to pick off enemies one by one, so that your berserkitis won't expire in the middle of a pack of monsters. Of course, the shoutitis was included to prevent that option too.

[Bloax]

Yes, that definitely sounds unique and not something that nobody would play ever.
Because like, you know - it kind of has the worst mutations (save for a few which would be overkill) already, without anything to really counter them. (Because surprise, those "bad" mutations are really god damn awful.)

At this point you might as well make them passively "confused", except for when attacking stuff. You know, so that you won't be thinking silly thoughts about anything other than holding tab.

Defiant also looks like the best mutation ever. Who would have thought 1 hp is not enough in all situations ever in existence when you're berserked.
Also, multiple monsters? "The goblin hits you, you die but stand defiant! The kobold hits you! You die.."

[Davion Fuxa]

Probably giving angry, screaming and blurry vision to a "bland and boring race" doesn't make it into an interesting race, just a bad one. If you want to come up with something new and exciting I would suggest focusing on new ideas to differentiate it instead. Also, I would imagine that the easiest way to avoid it being able to run away from things like Centaurs/Felids/Spriggans can would just be to not make it fast.

Part of the problem I think people have with the newer races is that they have 'new and exciting features' about them; that is part of the reason I was thinking about including content that is similar to what we see in game already from other races or monsters. Additionally while I could make the Werewolf as slow as the majority of other races I don't think it really fits with them to be slow; plus i'm sure most people are playing Felids partly because of their speed.

I did have another idea which I'll pitch though before I start redesigning what I have above: Mermaids have an ability to make it so you can't move away from them and Sirens have the ability to make it so you start moving towards them. Something that might work well with the idea I'm proposing would be to try and use some of those game mechanics.

The Werewolf might be made so that it must remain in the LOS of a monster after combat is initiated by the Werewolf. IE, if the Werewolf was to start the game and wander into an Ogre that it attacked but say was unable to kill, it would be able to run out of melee of that Ogre but unable to run out of the LOS of that Ogre. I'm sure some thinking around it might be required but it would work to changing up the playstyle for the Werewolf from that of the other Fast Species, and while initially it might be able to play with monsters early in the game, it would get progressively difficult or require the Werewolf to make multiple random blinks or teleports for it to escape.

[nicolae]

Part of the problem I think people have with the newer races is that they have 'new and exciting features' about them

In this particular case, the problem people have with this new species proposal is that it's a bunch of crappy mutations (berserkitis, shoutitis, blurry vision) piled on top of an already-significant restriction (no equipment) with no actual benefit in return. The possibility of playing a shouting loose cannon whose entire survival strategy is basically "hope I don't inadvertently end up slowed and exhausted near a centaur pack" would be new, certainly, but I don't think it'd be exciting.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'm mostly talking around just the amendment after taking out all, or at least most of the negatives above - ie, no angry, no scream, no blurry vision, but still with speed 1 (or 2 or 3) and most of the other good attributes (or buffed attributes if Regeneration 1 isn't good enough and people really want to have another Carnivore 3 running around)

If that idea on its own doesn't seem interested then I'll drop the Hit & Commit and just allow for another Hit & Run to be designed for now.

[nicolae]

If that idea on its own doesn't seem interested then I'll drop the Hit & Commit and just allow for another Hit & Run to be designed for now.

thank you for your generosity in allowing the devteam to make other kinds of species

[Roderic]

Defiant idea is not *so* bad by its own. I was recently thinking on some mechanic to get resistances and extrapower from an injured state (from a god?, an amulet?, a species?). It puts you to live on the edge to get great benefits.

[mumra]

Probably giving angry, screaming and blurry vision to a "bland and boring race" doesn't make it into an interesting race, just a bad one. If you want to come up with something new and exciting I would suggest focusing on new ideas to differentiate it instead. Also, I would imagine that the easiest way to avoid it being able to run away from things like Centaurs/Felids/Spriggans can would just be to not make it fast.

Part of the problem I think people have with the newer races is that they have 'new and exciting features' about them; that is part of the reason I was thinking about including content that is similar to what we see in game already from other races

As I said in another thread recently, the reason why new races have gimmicks is because the standard design space is already 100% covered, the only point of adding a new race is if it has something new and exciting. Just because some people don't like it doesn't mean it's bad in any way.

[njvack]

Your proposed race is a troll that decided to wear robe of misfortune the entire game. Your proposed amendment is a troll that did that but also wielded the obsidian axe.

Force them to worship Xom and I'm in.

[njvack]

Defiant idea is not *so* bad by its own. I was recently thinking on some mechanic to get resistances and extrapower from an injured state (from a god?, an amulet?, a species?). It puts you to live on the edge to get great benefits.

The problem with defiant as described here is that you run either a 66% or 33% chance of dying instead of going berserk at the two lower levels, meaning "if you try to use this you will almost certainly die."

The underlying idea is interesting (see Limit Breaks in Final Fantasy and boss low-damage powerups in about a million games) -- bears get it in Crawl, in fact. The tricky thing about the mechanic in roguelikes is permadeath. If you can get a job done in a fast, high-risk way or a careful, low-risk way, you should absolutely always choose the low-risk way. If you roll high-risk high-reward, you'll eventually lose and it's game over. "There is a chance I could die doing this" in Crawl translates to "I should not be doing this."

Monsters don't suffer from this, because there are a million of 'em and they're all going to die anyhow.

[Davion Fuxa]

I redid the stuff in the first post based on criticism given. When I get a chance I'll give my reasonings for changes, removals, or why stuff was left alone; though now I have stuff to do so I'll leave it as is for comment.

And Note, it isn't balanced obviously, though I did try to balance it a little in terms of the aptitudes.

Edit: I switched the Fighting and Unarmed Combat Attributes around so that Unarmed Combat trains at a faster rate and Fighting at a slower one.
Edit2: I added in starting stats to give a rough idea by Strength and Dexterity go up and Intelligence go down.

[tasonir]

I didn't see the initial version that everyone seemed to think was too weak, but now it seems rather powerful yet still limited. Aptitudes are very, very high. Even the ones that seem reasonable, like +2 to unarmed, would be the highest unarmed combat in the game. I've always thought it was terribly unfair that you can get merfolk with +4 polearms, but the highest unarmed aptitude in the game is +1, but that's crawl for you. The design space is all full, and full of all races that can't learn unarmed easily

Still, I have trouble being really excited about a new race which seems to cater to my builds, because it prevents all use of the forms that go so well with unarmed. It's also prohibited from using shields, which normally go well together with unarmed. Of course that makes perfect sense thematically, it's just going to make the race simultaneously overpowered and very difficult to manage.

I like the high unarmed, fighting, inability to use weapons, mutation resistance 3, and even defiant. Correct play would be to avoid it at all costs, but it could be useful to run away when you get hurt. I'd recommend making it stronger - give it either no slow once it fades, or at least a chance to avoid the post-berserk slow, based on either the rank of the mutation itself, or based on strength, level, monsters killed, etc.

I dislike the inability to use shields (but if you're replacing felids then I suppose this might stay over my protests), forms, extreme penalties to throwing and traps and doors. Those both should be around -1 or -2, imho. I also see no reason why they should suprisingly get a good charms aptitude - this isn't a casting race and if they are going to learn magic, the school of self-modification seems to contradict their unchangeable nature. It feels like you're trying to give them haste to bump up their power without any other reason. If they are going to be good at a school of magic, I'd say give them earth (redundant with trolls), or fire/water/air. Right now those elements are kind of mixed - I'd say give them something more consistent like a +1 across all elements, including poison. They'd be decent at elemental conjurations while being bad at pure conjurations spells, also preventing them from getting fire/ice storm going. But they'd be able to use the cloud spells easily, giving them -some- sort of ranged option.

High dodging is good, but +4 is too much. +2 or +3 would be better.

Think about your typical werewolf build:

Skills you need:
Fighting +4
Unarmed +2
Dodging +4
Invocations (depending on god) 0

That's pretty much the end of essentials. Branching out into anything else that such a character would normally want (throwing) is heavily penalized. Spellcasting is terrible, but magic schools are inconsistent. You're going to level up incredibly fast, leading to being overpowered early and underpowered later. Something that smooths the experience out over the entire course of the game would be better.

[tasonir]

Another issue: You say they cannot wear any type of equipment - does that include rings and amulets? If they cannot wear rings, then I cannot see any way for them to get resistances aside from quaffing a potion of resistance.

Going through the entire game with zero resistances doesn't seem possible to me. What I would LOVE to see would be a race that gains resistances per level, although I don't know how "crawl" that idea is. Currently only deep dwarves do this, once at level 14, to my knowledge. Monks in nethack had that sort of growth, and nethack ideas tend to be really hated around here. But if we can get past that, two ways to do this:

Fixed:

XL 6: rC+
XL 9: rPois
XL 12: rF+
XL 15: relec
...etc.

Player gets resists at a certain point, things progress, you can beat the game.

Better idea! Player chooses:

Pick one resistance every 4 levels. Total of 6 resists: player can freely choose any among rF, rC, rPois, rElec, rN, rAcid.

Addendum: pick secondary "resists"? Make it so they get one choice among rRotting, sustain abilities, see invisible, conservation?

[nicolae]

Going through the entire game with zero resistances doesn't seem possible to me. What I would LOVE to see would be a race that gains resistances per level, although I don't know how "crawl" that idea is. Currently only deep dwarves do this, once at level 14, to my knowledge.

There are a few DS mutations that give rF+ or rC+ but those aren't guaranteed.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'll clarify it so that it says no equipment except jewelry.

Edit: I could allow them to have resistances to everything except Silver and Holy which sort of falls in line with the whole thinking that you need 'The Silver Bullet' to slay a Werewolf. But would this be a decent tradeoff for not being capable of wearing any equipment?

Also note, technically you can wield weapons and shields for their resistances - you just can't fight for squat while equipping them.

[Davion Fuxa]

Part of the reason for Defiant being added in is that the Werewolf is a beast with near uncontrollable beast like instincts. When it gets near death its survival instincts kick in and the werewolf pretty well loses all sense of sentience and stops thinking. Really it is just a mutation that caters to the flavor of the werewolf much like how a Hill Orc or Ogre can tolerate rotten or contaminated meat like a pig can because that is an aspect about them. How well it works (or doesn't work) would just have to be left up to testing to find out.

@Tasonir, I actually bumped up the Unarmed Combat and dropped the Fighting while I guess you were posting. I made a mistake and thought that no species had good Fighting while some had good Unarmed Combat but it was actually reversed. I did this because without Blade Hands and with only the Claws 2 Mutation, the Werewolf will need all the help it can get in getting its Unarmed Combat as high as possible.

Some examples anyhow for why things are:

First, I note that Halflings are currently the only species with Mutation Resistance 1; they are also the only species with a -4 Modifier in the Transmutation school. I'm imagining this concept to not be mutually exclusive so this is why the Werewolf is not only bad at Transmutations, but not able to benefit from Forms as well.

Second, I'm sort of imagining the Werewolf having hands that have taken on some aspects of a Wolves Paws. Because of this they can't hold things too well, let alone properly wield them the way they are intended. I'm only imagining that they can possibly grasp throw-able items enough that they can somewhat throw them in the right direction, but I would imagine it being difficult (Ie, their grasp won't be able to fully encompass things, so holding the handle of a handaxe and swinging it without it coming loose from your hand would be too difficult for them to do; but with thrown weapons that is sort of what your going for so it is okay.

Third, they aren't bad spellcasters, they just don't have the mana capacity to cast multiple spells and due to Spellcasting being so dismally bad they can't mitigate satiation issues either. I would have liked to make them fairly good at all spell schools but it should be noted that I'm not try to replace Felids - I'm trying to make a species that is like them but distinct from them; also as stated I don't want them to be good at Transmutations due to their stated mutations preventing them from being good, and if you get the general gist of what I was going for you should understand what Hit & Commit means.

The reason for Transmutations is obvious, Hit & Commit should also be fairly obvious - but I'll add that instead of attempting to deny you the ability to run away from a foe or to attempt to whittle it down at range, I've just made it so your impeded a bit or not as effective at it (Blurry Vision 1, poor Translocations, poor Poison Magic, low Magic Casting Stamina, and poor Throwing). Hit & Commit is of course also one way of making them distinct from Felids, another way is preventing them from so aptly protecting themselves with hoards of minions; which is why you see negative modifiers in Summoning and Necromancy (I only bumped Necromancy from -3 to -2 due to the fact that they are Evil and because Demonspawns had been bumped up 1 or 2 points).

For the rest of the non-elemental spell schools - Charms, Hexes, and Conjurations, I'm trying to keep them viable but I don't know how positive a modifier they should. I want Conjuration high so at the very least the Werewolf can blow stuff away with IMB or Orb of Destruction. Hexes & Charms are basically there to help the Werewolf protect themselves and augment their power - and I'll note that I don't see anything wrong with these spell schools being high since the spells don't physically change the Werewolf, just the surroundings of the Werewolf.

Finally, for the spell schools I really have no idea what they should end up like - but since I want Werewolves to be good at Conjurations, and Conjurers have a lot of Air and Ice Magic in their starting book, I was thinking about creating some synergy so that could be one of their preferred starting classes. What I might do to change it is to leave all the elemental spell schools with positive aptitudes on the Werewolf and bump up Ice and Air to be really good for them; but I'm not totally sure on the final strategy for them.

I'll leave the aptitudes as they are now but some changes I've currently got in my head -

Ice Magic +3
Air Magic +2
Fire Magic +1
Earth Magic 0

Conjurations +2
Hexes +2
Charms +1

Anyhow, there is probably more to reply too but I've little time today so I'll just update the first post again tomorrow.

[Bloax]

Well their aptitudes seem more interesting than the race itself, though I'd give them mad, mad stats myself.

Though +10% hp for a race you specifically cripple into being absolutely horrendous at running away from fights is really stretching it.
I mean dodging is nice and all, I know that from hilarious experience - but there certainly are things that laugh at your 50 EV and continue pelting you to death with hazardous magic.

Not to mention that EV isn't something too reliable in the first place.

[njvack]

Changing Defiant to be bersekitis that procs when you go below a certain threshold makes clarity (or never going below that threshold) almost a necessity -- an unwanted berserk is a really bad thing. Especially when your attacker may be all the way at LOS, waiting for your berserk to run out -- oh sorry, you passed out when that Yaktaur Captain was still two squares away!

It might be possible to do something like: When you take "heavy" (maybe maxhp/2 in less than 10 turns?) damage, it charges a short-term "Rage" status that lets you berserk like an amulet of rage. But I wonder if that'd just make people do silly things like take damage in nonthreatening ways...

[Davion Fuxa]

@njvack: The thing I'm going for with Defiant is less so about making it so you have to worry about going Berserk, but moreso if your Health drops severely low (and note I'm thinking a really low Threshold like 5%-15% of total Health) then you might be able to finish off an enemy you are likely already fighting to the death anyways. I assume most people run away under 50% health or 33% health thresholds respectively most of the time so if it procs you will probably be benefiting from it rather then suffering from it.

I like the idea of Rage Status though - but if Exhaustion is really a concern then maybe just make it so Werewolves can never be Exhausted after Berserking.

Well their aptitudes seem more interesting than the race itself, though I'd give them mad, mad stats myself.

Though +10% hp for a race you specifically cripple into being absolutely horrendous at running away from fights is really stretching it.
I mean dodging is nice and all, I know that from hilarious experience - but there certainly are things that laugh at your 50 EV and continue pelting you to death with hazardous magic.

Not to mention that EV isn't something too reliable in the first place.

The Health Modifier, the Size of the Werewolf, the Aptitudes for Stealth, Dodging, and the Charm/Hex Spell Schools, and the Speed Mutation are mostly the really unbalanced aspect of the Werewolf. It isn't that I don't recognize that it is unbalanced but rather I'm still stuck on deciding on the size of the Werewolf and how to keep to different from the Spriggan or the Centaur in their ability to run away or the Troll or Ogre in their ability to Rend and Clobber things.

Though most likely I'm thinking about just saying Werewolves are Humans that have contracted the curse and then modifying them from there.

[Davion Fuxa]

I've actually been thinking a little bit about Shields as well. Technically for Weapons I can get away with saying it is difficult for them to hold because of their paw shaped hands - Shields however you don't necessarily hold in your hands (Apart from perhaps the Buckler) and the game seems to imply that you are instead actually wearing them on your arms.

I'm thinking of saying that they are allowed to wear Shields but with the follow implications - it takes them longer to equip or take off shields, they have a lower Shield modifier much like their Throwing modifier being really low. If they are a Large Species as well, they also loose the ability to make use of Bucklers as well.

Edit:

In order to help keep my topic and Twilights different I've changed the title of the thread - his is more about replacement Felids while mine is more about keeping Felids.

[Davion Fuxa]

Okay, I've adjusted the aptitudes and the size around so that the Werewolf can now equip shields, has Medium size, 120% health, +3 Dodging, -2 Shields, +2 Stealth. They also have +2 Fighting and +4 Unarmed Combat which means they should start out pretty easy for the early game, get progressively harder into the mid game, and then harder still into the late game.

I also made it so all the Elemental Schools but Poison don't have numbers since I'll try to think about that after a few ideas I'm kicking around below:

Some ideas then that I'm kicking around in my head is to build on what tasonir suggested with resistances on top of its vulnerabilities. I'm also thinking about removing their ability to wear Jewelry (or perhaps just rings) and letting them wear capes - while also getting rid of Defiant and going along with something similar to what njvack is thinking - ie, they can choose to go Berserk under certain conditions. Here is a rough idea of what I'm thinking though right now.

Keep Amulets but don't let them wear Rings
Give them Capes to wear
Give them Fur 3
Give them an innate rN+ or rN++
Gimmicks! - Maybe include Blood Frenzy like what Twilight is thinking, or give them a Berserk Safe-Rage ability (tied in Tension perhaps), or maybe even do something like let them be able to Berserk at anytime but don't let it be safe. Of course Defiant could be left here as well due to Amulets still being equip-able (If you really fear Defiant then just wear Amulet of Clarity which should be easy enough to find).

If they want resistances they'll have to more or less full rely on Amulet, Capes, Shield, Insulation, or God Abilities, Insulation spell, or what not to deliver.

From here I would possibly make them perhaps have better Air Magic but bad Earth and give them a slight boost to Cold with a slight nerf or Fire; which is what I was aimming for, I just have to decide how all the numbers should play out.

Edit:

One final idea to throw in - Fury Mutation 1, 2, 3 - Werewolves start at Fury 3 - Fury 1 Lets you Berserk when (Condition), Fury 2 Lets you Berserk when (Condition) and gives you a Rage like effect preventing you from fainting, Fury 3 Lets you Berserk when (Condition, gives you a Rage like effect against fainting, and prevents you from being Slowed.

[tasonir]

well I like them a lot more now that they're allowed to wear shields!

How about this for the defiant ability:

Allow the werewolf go to berserk below a certain % life. It does not trigger automatically - it must be activated. Depending on how low on life they are (maybe? didn't actually include this in the calculation) and the rank of the mutation, they are healed some health.

Sample numbers:
I am assuming that werewolves will have rank 3, and be locked into it by mutation resistance. But other races could randomly mutate rank 1, 2, or 3. It would be considered a beneficial mutation because it must be activated instead of automatically triggering.

Require less than 10% health per rank of mutation: less than 30% hp at rank 3.
Heal for mutation rank * XL/3 + 5 hp. Maxes at 32 for a level 27 werewolf. Slightly stronger than a heal wounds, but weaker than heal wounds for most of the game. A fairly weak heal for anyone who picked up Defiant 1, but they weren't expecting to rely on this from the start.

Optional: Remove or lower the chance for passing out after berserk at rank 3.

[Davion Fuxa]

Interesting - though honestly I think that fainting from Exhaustion should definitely be left separate from the mutation. Defiant would already be quite awesome if you could Berserk at will when at low hit points and be able to self-restore a suitable about of hit points; or maybe instead of getting Berserk, you just get the boost to hit points only?

For just the Hit Point only though -

If Exhausted or Very Hungry you can't use Defiant
Set Hit Point Threshold to 10% x Mutation Level
Use Formula: (5% of Max HitPoints x Mutation Level) + (Static Amount of Hitpoints) for restoring hitpoints
Make it so the character is Exhausted after using Defiant and incurs a food cost of 1200 units

Alternatively it could still be a passive skill type of idea -

Won't proc while Exhausted or Very Hungry
Make it so when you drop below Hit Point Threshold Defiant procs (including if character drops below 1 Hit Point)
Use Formula: (2% of Max Hitpoints x Mutation Level) + (Static Amount of Hitpoints) for restoring hitpoints
If character is above 1 Hit Point, treat as still alive, make character Exhausted and incur a food cost of 1200 units

I'm also up for things changing here to balance it out so it wouldn't be too powerful in any case - right now it looks really powerful.

Edit: As an added bonus, maybe make it so Clarity or Stasis blocks this ability, much like it does for Berserk

[yogaFLAME]

How often are you guys dropping below 30% HP?

[Davion Fuxa]

@njvack: The thing I'm going for with Defiant is less so about making it so you have to worry about going Berserk, but moreso if your Health drops severely low (and note I'm thinking a really low Threshold like 5%-15% of total Health) then you might be able to finish off an enemy you are likely already fighting to the death anyways. I assume most people run away under 50% health or 33% health thresholds respectively most of the time so if it procs you will probably be benefiting from it rather then suffering from it.

I'm not sure specifically how much I myself let my characters drop below 30% but when they do they are usually in a situation where they are fighting to the death or running away.

[palin]

How often are you guys dropping below 30% HP?

Currently never unless I have Death's Door, because there's no gimmick to make this viable.

[Davion Fuxa]

I decided to remove Defiant for now from the above blueprint. While I do like the idea for some sort of near-death ability being added, it might be better to not include it for now and focus on the Werewolves other strength.

In addition to that, I also added in some changes regarding the removal of Rings and the Inclusion of Capes; along with tier 1 resistances to Fire and Cold, tier 2 Negative Energy Resistance, and gave them Fur 3 (which gives them Tier 2 Cold resistance). For Spell schools I nerfed Hexes to +1, raised Charms to +2, and threw in what I would prefer for values in the elemental spell schools.

Finally, I read somewhere in one of the other threads about Werewolves being able to see invisible. My werewolf currently has him being sort of unable to see as well, but that doesn't mean I can't have him being unable to smell or hear where the enemy is. For the werewolf this would be a new mutation that is unique to them, called Heightened Senses. It would basically allow them to always determine the location of invisible enemies within their LOS, but not let them identify what those enemies are unless they had seen that sort of enemy before - and by this I mean if a unseen horror attacks them, they know where it is but unless they gain the ability to see invisible they won't be able to tell what type of enemy it is; if though say an Orc Mage (or anytype of Orc really) goes invisible, then they know it's an Orc, and if they see it go invisible then know that its an Orc Mage that is invisible.

Edit: For the most part I think the Werewolf I've proposed looks more or less done. I'd be up for discussing Mutations here but unless people think that the Werewolf is looking unbalanced in someway, there really isn't much to discuss I think. The only thing I might do now is simply post a recommended class guide which I think I would be aiming to have for this species.

Feel free to post opinions though on what you would like the Werewolf to look like if you were designing it.

[Davion Fuxa]

Some rough thoughts on classes, including which I would aim for preferred and reasons for it:

Fighter - Preferred - Werewolves are able to use shields and while not great with them it is one of the only defensive items in their arsenal.
Gladiator - Not Preferred - Werewolves can throw items but they are dismal at it, being unable to use helmets and not benefiting from advance weapon choices; you'd be better off going Fighter for the better Shield or Monk for the better starting aptitudes.
Monk - Preferred - Werewolves are built to go at it unarmed while dodging attacks coming their way, if Shields aren't your thing then the Monk class would be what you would pick instead of Fighter.
Hunter - Not Preferred - They can't use Bows, Crossbows, or Slings and suck at throwing items; ranged weapons are simply not the way to go with the Werewolf.
Assassin - Preferred - I don't think a Blowgun would necessarily be unholdable for the Werewolf, and with the decent Stealth they would be quite powerful as Assassins.

Berserker - Preferred - Your a little stupid so you can certainly do well forgoing the use of spells as a worshiper of Trog; ignoring the fact that Trog's Abilities all greatly make up for the Werewolves weaknesses.
Abyssal Knight - Preferred - Being designed as a species that sucks at disengaging from a fight, I would think Lugonu would be terrifically useful for Werewolf players.
Chaos Knight - Challenge Class - Maybe you'll survive longer with your faster speed or regeneration at your side under Xom?
Death Knight - Preferred - Being unable to really use Necromancy Magic all that well, Yredelemnul abilities to give you help and health stealing abilities would certainly help.
Priest - Prohibited - Zin doesn't like you and you aren't an Orc; you can't become a Priest.
Healer - Prohibited - Elyvilon doesn't like you anymore then Zin does so no being a Healer either.

Skald - Not Preferred - Without being able to use Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, or Poison Weapon while having your naturally decent regeneration and speed; Werewolves would probably not do well as Skalds.
Enchanter - Preferred - While Sure Blade wouldn't help you, you don't suck at the Hexes spell school and you have alright Stealth and Stabbing provides good synergy in being an Enchanter.
Transmuter - Prohibited - Being unable to use Forms, a Werewolf wouldn't do well as a Transmuter.
Arcane Archer - Not Preferred - You suck at ranged attacks and you're already faster then most enemies for Slow to be useful; so just stick with being an Enchanter.
Stalker - Removed - Even if this class wasn't being removed, you simple suck at Transmutations anyway.
Warper - Not Preferred - Translocations is not something you do well at so you wouldn't do well as a Warper.

Wizard - Not Preferred - Werewolves are pretty stupid so the bump for Intelligence is really useful to them, but Werewolves lack the aptitudes for the Wizards Spells to be good Wizards
Conjurer - Preferred - Werewolves are at least good at Conjurations in the Conjurers starting book, so they would be at home playing as a Conjurer.
Summoner - Not Preferred - With lacklustre Summoning you would not want to start as a Summoner.
Necromancer - Not Preferred - Much like with Summoner, your lacklustre Necromancy prevents you from being a good Necromancer.
Fire Elementalist - Preferred - While not great at Fire Magic you certainly aren't terrible and the Fire Magic spell school doesn't branch too much into schools your bad at; you could do decently enough.
Ice Elementalist - Not Preferred - Ice Magic might be something you could work well with, but the starting book includes Condensation Shield and Summon Ice Beast which you probably would suck at.
Air Elementalist - Preferred - Air Magic is an awesome school for you to work with due to all the powerful spells, while you aren't necessarily bad at the Charms Spell School; its Werewolf approved for sure.
Earth Elementalist - Not Preferred - Earth Magic is not something you do well at, and Transmutations is heavily paired up with it; you wouldn't do well as a Earth Elementalist.
Venom Mage - Not Preferred - Your speed might be great for Poison Magic but your aptitude certainly isn't; part of how I designed the Werewolf was so it would be bad at this background since I know they are all Hit & Run.

Artificer - Not Preferred - You might be able to use wands as a Werewolf but you aren't necessarily good with them due to your poor Evocations.
Wanderer - Challenge Class - I think it would be a doable challenge to be a Wanderer if your stats ended up in skills and spell schools that are somewhat useful in someway to you.

Other things to note is that I would probably make it so all Werewolves start with Meat Rations when entering the Dungeon and classes that can choose weapons just start with their Claws when they jump into the game. However, the rest of the equipment would more or less either be removed (Gladiator Helmet, starting Robe/Armor) and skills that a Werewolf can't train like Armor, just be given to something appropriate (like Dodging or Shields).

I'm sort of on the fence about just saying Werewolves can't use Blowguns as well, but I'm wondering if I'm pushing the 'Hit & Commit' just a little bit - not that the Werewolf would already have enough backgrounds it can choose from anyway.

Edit: I added in snazzy colors.

[Davion Fuxa]

More or less made the final update I plan to make in regards to developing the designs for this class. I included the potential backgrounds I would think the Werewolf could do well with based on what there currently is - though obviously that isn't to say that will be how it will be if this character comes into play.

In regards to the Assassin background I pretty well decided that the Werewolf shouldn't be able to wield a Blowgun properly because I don't want it to have any sort of Hit & Run tactics readily available - something the Blowgun would enable the Werewolf to do. Also, Ice Elementalist probably would still be quite good if the Werewolf either ignored using Ice Beast and Condensation Shield or if they just simply decided to use those spells they would have the first four spells to fall back on and plenty of time to dump experience in Summoning or Transmutations to make those spells work.

Finally, I don't feel like making something new in regards to Heightening Senses, so I'll just say that it is a new mutation that pretty well mimics Antennae without being an Antennae and leave it like that.

Anyhow, I've pretty well made the blueprints for my proposition for Werewolves. It is mostly done and complete and all that's really left is to decide on how/if Werewolves should get added into the game; and then just beta test the Werewolf to see if it needs to be buffed or nerfed to prevent them from being too strong or too weak.

Edit: I made some minor edits - such as allowing worship of Fedhas (originally Werewolves were basically engines of destruction but the current version is far more tame), made it 30% less MP instead of 40% (nothing yet has -3 Modifer for MP and I figured it was a decent buff to make the Werewolf easier to play), and talking about Resistances and Speed as a means to buff the Werewolf if it is needed to make the species feasible (can be restructured in other ways too such as allowing rings, or to bring in an idea from the other thread - Damage Shaving).

[Davion Fuxa]

I figured since the species designed as morphed so much I should give a run down in the aims and ideas for the Werewolf, mixing a bit of what I had originally designed and what it has bcome currently.

This design was of course brought on by observation of the Felid Overhaul/Removal thread as an attempt to create a new 'beast' species that people could play, but with full intention on keeping Felids. This of course requires that the Werewolf is made as different as possible from Felids and all the other species that are currently playable in game. Much of the changes that came over the last few days though were in regards to the Werewolf being too weak, however some have came from a bit of a different philosophy as well on how they should play.

What They Are Now

As of right now, the Werewolf is intended somewhat match the mythical Werewolves or Lore. The current Werewolf I had come up with and mostly retained above is a Man-Wolf hybrid that takes on many aspects of both Wolves and Men. While having increased Constitution, Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Recuperation then any Man or Wolf; they have decreased intelligence, cannot learn as many spells or sustainable cast magic as much as the other species, get quite hungry do to a faster metabolism and high food cost for casting spells, and have an inherent vulnerability to Silver.

This designed werewolf is not a shapeshifter, and incapable of ever being reverted back to whatever its original form was. I also imagine that the curse that afflicts their bodies may also have been bestowed by Zin as a punishment for their foul deeds (Look up Lycaon). As such included in the design full Mutation Resistance and the inability to use Transmutations to altar their form. I also made it so that they can't worship any of the Good Gods and have an inherent vulnerability to Holy.

In a way to help cater the Werewolf to those who might have some interest in it and to differentiate them from Felids as well, I also altered their resistances and equipment slots a little. I included the ability for them to potentially wear Capes and Shields to help them augment their abilities or provide more defense, while removing their abilities to wear Rings and providing them some inherent resistances and heightened senses to whatever might be thrown at them.

How They Would Play

As it stands, the currently designed Werewolf is centered around running up to rend enemies with their claws and tearing the flesh off with their teeth. To help them get into and survive on the approach they have fast movement speed and some inherent resistances to reduce some of the non-physical damage types (right now that's Fire, Cold, and Negative Energy) and they of course have a little bit higher regeneration to recuperate from the damage that may be inflicted upon them. They can cast spells, but they are probably better suited to casting self-buff spells or one-off spells to help with either getting into melee, allow for some crowd control, or provide them some utility in another way.

Part of my philosophy for designing this character was to make it shy away from the 'Hit & Run' strategies present for Felids, Centaurs, and Spriggans and make them more of a 'Hit & Commit' playstyle. In adhering to this I basically systematically weakened the Werewolf by giving it Blurry Vision and Fast Metabolism, and the Poor Aptitudes in Poison Magic, Translocations, Summoning, Necromancy, Spellcasting, and Evocations. The Werewolf of course can still run away by either not engaging in the first place (they do have decent Stealth) or disengaging with their faster speed.

Giving them Shields and Capes sort of doesn't fit with the 'beast' portfolio, but part of the reason it is done is because the Werewolf could technically get away with using those equipment slots. The other part being that Felids don't get those things and those equipment slots can help further shore up resistances or abilities for the Werewolf. Specifically as well because of Rings which I removed partly because with the inherently given resistances, the Werewolf would have less options for raising resistances.

Other things to note is that they have low level mutations for Saprovore and Carnivore. Saprovore and Carnivore are mostly at a level 1 to allow the Werewolf to consume bread, fruit, and other consumables that Carnivore 3 would restrict - thus helping them to survive when corpses are scarce; to help Werewolves of course ignore having to wear an Amulet of the Gourmand somewhat for conservation of perma-food; and when corpses are present to prevent them from getting a lot of nutrition that they might be a little less conservatives with spell use. It's also worth noting as well that Dogs and Wolves aren't exclusively dependent on meat and they have a far more powerful digestive system that can help prevent them from getting sick.

Finally, the Werewolf has the ability to hold weapons (but not use them), use Wands, potentially use Rods, and other objects that require hands. They have poor Evocations of course to simulate poor ability in doing so and no Weapon Attributes as well to show incapability in properly wielding weaponry for use, but they aren't incapable of doing so (I'm sure the Werewolf could cut off a Hydra's Head if it really tried). This is both or prevent people from complaining about the lack of ability that hampers Felids so and to otherwise expand on the options for fighting with the Werewolf.

What Should be up for Changed, Removed, Added

I've touched on it, but some noted things that I might personally suggest for modifying would be the Inherent Resistances it would get to be better or worse, the Ability to wear Rings, giving them Damaging Shaving much like Deep Dwarves have already, or modifying their Speed. All of this would be basically fiddling around with the nature of the Werewolf to basically 'Resist damage from Non-Vulnerable Properties' which very well fits with Werewolf stereotype. I would note as well that the Claws 3 could be dropped to Claws 2, giving it less straight-up damage then Trolls and helping to differentiate them apart more.

Something else to consider though is building on what Twlight had said in his thread about the game already having Demonspawn and the Undead races being unable to worship the good gods; something to consider for a change would be to drop the vulnerability to Holy and let them worship Elyvilon, The Shining One, AND Zin - I read the line in particular for example, 'Zin will forgive accidental transgressions'; I'm pretty sure you don't intend to become a Werewolf. Right now I'm mostly going on the assumption that the Werewolf could be a form of punishment, but if we took the Werewolf to a more neutral perspective then that would be fine and they could worship Zin much along the thinking of why Merfolk can worship Zin (Zin is Understanding). Also, if we follow along with the idea that they are 100% resistant to mutation, it might be feasible to say that Zin simply can't revert them back to the original form as well.

Speaking of Mutations and the Transmutation Restrictions I put though, that might be something else worth touching on. Right now I have them as being 100% resistant to Mutation, unable to use self-transformation spells, and with a really poor modifier for using Transmutations. If that is felt to be too high or if Transmutations are desired to be cast, then changing it to be a Mutation Resistance level 1 or 2 might be order.

Defiant while currently removed is also something I wouldn't mind being added in on a note too. I had removed because being unable to wield equipment while gaining potentially some sort of Heightened Senses and inherent Resistances is already sort of gimmicky enough in comparison to the other races. However, having some sort low health ability would obviously be different and unique, while also being quite fitting for the Werewolf.

[Davion Fuxa]

I've posted an entry for my designed Werewolf in the Code and Development Wiki. Check Werewolf Proposal by DavionFuxa for it.

Feel free to post comments and feedback here in this thread to help me improve the design further - specifically around the idea of special abilities to make the Werewolf Unique, Interesting, and Different rom the other species.