Setting up traps..


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 14th October 2012, 20:45

Setting up traps..

What do you think of idea of setting traps by the player?
Any non-levitationg monster would trigger that trap when whalking on it.
Of course, traps set by the player would be dangerous for himself, too.

I mean setting up all the conventional traps, like:
- an alarm trap,
- a gas traps (by using potions; poison potion - potion trap, confusion potion - confusion trap etc.),
- an axe trap (by using axes),
- a missile trap,
- a teleport trap,
- web trap,
etc.

Also:
- an exploding mine (just a proposal),
- some magical ones, like dispel magic.

Zot trap is out of discussion, since most of them harms only the player.
The probability of setting up a trap (and turns required to do that) would be counted from the "traps & doors" value.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 14th October 2012, 22:18

Re: Setting up traps..

The problem I've had with traps in just about every game is that you have to build the trap and then tediously lure enemies into it while it's generally much faster, safer, and more efficient to just kill them on sight,
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th October 2012, 23:12

Re: Setting up traps..

Dungeon Crawl: Tower Defense
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 14th October 2012, 23:33

Re: Setting up traps..

That would be Zot Defense I believe.
The best strategy most frequently overlooked by new players for surviving: not starting a fight to begin with.

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 14th October 2012, 23:57

Re: Setting up traps..

There's a wiki proposal that's been around for some time: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps#trap_creation
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 15th October 2012, 01:22

Re: Setting up traps..

We do have some kind of trap, in the form of fire storm and such, or even more specific with Fedash and the rain ability.

The teleport trap lock like a teleport spell/scroll but without the kick-in timer.

Gas trap IS the evaporation spell, just more tedious to use.

Web trap might duplicate an arachnoid or spider god feature (if it gets in-game...).

Alarm trap, what would be the purpose, you wanna wake up monsters, press t --> t.

So yeah the only traps that make sense to use are the mundane and dull mechanical ones.

Maybe you can expand your suggestion by making it more specific. e.g. What are the requirement to built a trap so we can't just trap every tiles with a mummy. Make it one ability of a new god...

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 15th October 2012, 01:44

Re: Setting up traps..

varsovie wrote:Gas trap IS the evaporation spell, just more tedious to use.


Evaporate has been removed in trunk ...

Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 15th October 2012, 01:55

Re: Setting up traps..

Clouds spells are similar to traps. Conjure flame, Mephitic cloud, Freezing cloud, Poisonous cloud.

I think more trap-like spells can be made.
- Range : 0, melee, 2~8
- Targeting : shooting, smite, none
- Activate the trap by player will (= Trog book burning. You throw the book, and ask Trog to burn it when an enemy's on it)
- Activate the trap when stepped on it
- Slowing the enemy instead of damaging.

Shoot web = throwing net + web trap
Web field: high level hex spell
- Web traps randomly appear when cast.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 08:33

Re: Setting up traps..

OK, but what about setting an alarm trap? It could be useful for several reasons. You set up a trap in a corridor and go back exploring the dungeon. When you hear an alarm, it means something has just triggered it. That`s an information for you ("something is in the trap location"). Of course, when you set up two alarm traps in the different regions of the level, you wouldn`t know which one of those two was just triggered.

Why would it be so useful?
1a) You set up an alarm trap in a hall somewhere in a part of a dungeon that has not yet been explored by you. Something triggers the trap while you`re in a different part of a level. That means monsters are coming to the trap location, but not to your location.
1b) Just like above, but an alarm trap has a timer (set for X turns). You set it up, go in a different region of a dungeon and after several turns you might suppose there are a lot of monsters coming to the trap location.
2) When the level is cleared out from "regular" monsters and there`s somebody really dangerous left which you want to avoid (like Mennas, for example) it could be the sign for you: "Be aware, Mennas just triggered the trap, so he`s in the east! Run for the west".
However, there are few exceptions:
2a) if it`s triggered by a "regular" monster like Orc that has somehow survived (or has been just generated in that level), you might think it`s Mennas - you`ve been mislead and it`s even better!
2b) when monster triggers other alarm trap on the level (not being noticed by you yet), you might think Mennas just triggered your trap, so you`re mislead of his location! That`s even more better!!
2c) you leave the level and Mennas triggers your trap. You obviously can`t hear it when in a different level. The trap is loosed, bad luck for you.

Of course, you`d be aware only for non-levitating monsters that way. Ghosts, mosquitoes and so on would safely fly over the traps.

Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 10:01

Re: Setting up traps..

adamo901 wrote:Of course, you`d be aware only for non-levitating monsters that way. Ghosts, mosquitoes and so on would safely fly over the traps.


So will Mennas. It flies.
My wins so far - FeBe, KoBe, DsCo, MDFi, DsBe

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 10:16

Re: Setting up traps..

Alarm traps are magical traps (magenta ^ in console) so they will trigger on flying things, just like all other magenta ^. Try flying over one yourself.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 16:24

Re: Setting up traps..

My MiBe's are walking axe traps. They can actually walk right up to a monster and spring an axe RIGHT IN ITS FACE! BOOYAH!

Okay, I'm just being silly.

Trog's burn books ability is kind of a trap effect, it just only works in LOS. That might be a concept to build on - the ability to set traps of different kinds that you can trigger remotely, but you have to be in LOS. I think that would be more interesting than leaving some trap at the opposite end of the map. "A bat just flew through that room on the other side of the map" just isn't something I'd care enough to bother setting up a trap to tell me.

Some variations on this idea:

- This could be done as a spell that enables you to set certain spell effects to go off at a specific location when you want it to. This essentially gives you a delayed-action smite targeting ability for other spells. A use I can imagine is that you have some orc priests behind a pack of orcs and you want to take them out but the regular orcs are blocking LOS for your attack spells. So you use the "trapping spell" to cast a nasty spell on a square that you think the mob will walk over, then retreat, and when the orc priests are on that square, you trigger it and - boom - toasted priest chunks litter the dungeon.

- There could also be a time trigger on this, e.g. it would become unstable after 15-20 turns. Or it could be only a time trigger, like a time bomb.
- LOS might or might not be needed to set the spell on the square, or it would have to be done on your own current square.
- If LOS is needed or spell must be set on current square, then the spell would not be that useful without the ability to trigger it manually. If LOS is not needed, then it could be made to just go off when something walks into it, and no manual trigger option.

However, I do think this is something that should happen in the immediate vicinity of the player. Setting and forgetting traps on the far side of the dungeon would be a bit boring / pointless.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 16:31

Re: Setting up traps..

There's a dev trend to reduce/eliminate off-screen killing, so I think danr has the right of it.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 17:08

Re: Setting up traps..

Other ideas:

Summon fixed octopus
- smite targeting
- constricts adjacent enemies
- short duration
- low hp

Eye of storm
- trigger small sized tornado around the one who stepped on

Chaos trap
- chaos branded attack

Butterfly bomb
- summon butterflies + weak ood

Electric cloud
- Melee range, 1 cell
- Enemy entered will be electrocuted
- when activated, adjacent enemies or the player will be electrocuted too
- the cloud is gone right after it
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 17:29

Re: Setting up traps..

Choko5 wrote:Summon fixed octopus

Hey, that's the name of my new band!
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 17:50

Re: Setting up traps..

How about this:

Detonate - lvl 4 hexes/earth.
Imbues an object on the floor where you are standing with magical force so that if it is later disturbed by a monster (or the player) it shatters violently with an effect similar to LRD. Max power depends on the weight of the object as well as spell power. Usable objects are basically anything metal, plus crystal plate and large rocks. As a cool bonus, detonating branded weapons could add the brand type to the explosion. Artifacts are indestructible so cannot be detonated.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 18:01

Re: Setting up traps..

njvack wrote:
Choko5 wrote:Summon fixed octopus

Hey, that's the name of my new band!


So your 4 band member wrap their feet in latex and you then play music?

For the octopus, why not, it's a net trap that do damage.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 20:08

Re: Setting up traps..

adamo901 wrote:1a) You set up an alarm trap in a hall somewhere in a part of a dungeon that has not yet been explored by you. Something triggers the trap while you`re in a different part of a level. That means monsters are coming to the trap location, but not to your location.
1b) Just like above, but an alarm trap has a timer (set for X turns). You set it up, go in a different region of a dungeon and after several turns you might suppose there are a lot of monsters coming to the trap location.
2) When the level is cleared out from "regular" monsters and there`s somebody really dangerous left which you want to avoid (like Mennas, for example) it could be the sign for you: "Be aware, Mennas just triggered the trap, so he`s in the east! Run for the west".
However, there are few exceptions:
2a) if it`s triggered by a "regular" monster like Orc that has somehow survived (or has been just generated in that level), you might think it`s Mennas - you`ve been mislead and it`s even better!
2b) when monster triggers other alarm trap on the level (not being noticed by you yet), you might think Mennas just triggered your trap, so you`re mislead of his location! That`s even more better!!
2c) you leave the level and Mennas triggers your trap. You obviously can`t hear it when in a different level. The trap is loosed, bad luck for you.


Some reply to your points re setting alarm traps:

1a) This just tells me that there is something moving around somewhere on the level. I already know this.
1b) This is essentially the Projected Noise spell. Another way to do the same thing is to make some noise (scroll, shout, or step on alarm trap) and then teleport.
2) Think about this: it makes no sense to run around the level setting traps to alert you to a unique's location. If you only set a few in one area, odds are very low that the unique will step on them. If you set a bunch, the unique may step on one, but you won't know which one. And of course the whole time you are setting these traps you are running the risk of an encounter. If you want to be safe on a level where the only thing left is a dangerous unique, just LEAVE THE LEVEL.
2a-c) just point out that the small amount of usefulness this might have is even less.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 20:32

Re: Setting up traps..

For quite a while, I argued against removal of mechanical traps, on the grounds that some traps are good (shafts, teleportation, alarm) and that having traps and a trap-related skill might allow us to invent an interesting trap planting mechanic. It was realised quickly that the obvious idea (use axes to set up an axe trap etc.) will not work. This thread explains why. (By the way, I made exactly such a proposal back on the Sourceforge forum. Oh my.)

Then came Borsuk and suggested something completely different: player-made plants should be created from (charged) wands. Since wands are a lot more useful than axes etc., this allows for much stronger traps. The idea would have been that you sneak into an interesting area (vault or branch end, say), set up your wand(s)-trap, perhaps supported by invisibility, and then blow it up.

However, that idea is also quite old by now, and nothing came of it. The fate of mechanical traps is sealed, they will be gone in 0.12. Borsuk's suggestion is much better than the naive approach, but it also suffers from the fact that you often you won't be able to watch how your precious trap goes off. This is why I'd suggest to put this idea to rest, or perhaps turn into a god (naturally!) -- letting a god watch you the explosion could be feasible.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 16th October 2012, 21:19

Re: Setting up traps..

Or you could make traps out of fruit

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 18th October 2012, 01:19

Re: Setting up traps..

yogaFLAME wrote:Or you could make traps out of fruit


Yah, maybe it could be some kind of herbal-acid spitting trap...
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 18th October 2012, 15:54

Re: Setting up traps..

OK, you convinced me it`s not a good idea to set up traps that are in an opposite corner of a level.
As someone said, a remote control traps (triggered in your LOS by using some command) seems to be fine.
Setting up regular traps should entirely base on doors&traps skill, while setting up magical ones should base on doors&traps along with some magical skills (hexes?).

............
BTW. I think there should be more types of traps against the player (bombs? fire traps? flood traps? miasma/acidic/chaos ones?). The general appearance of traps should be more frequent. The traps should be more deadly. Apart from ZOT traps, the traps in DC is not a big threat now; especially mechanical ones, like dart traps - think about this - a dart trap on lower level is disturbing, since all it does is just stops autoexploring. I think the traps in DC should be generally deadlier. So if you want to avoid instant death caused by traps, you`d have to train doors&traps skill.

Edit: just thought about "porkalator trap", that works like a swine card; when you step on it, it will transform you into a hog ;)

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 18th October 2012, 18:32

Re: Setting up traps..

adamo901 wrote:I think the traps in DC should be generally deadlier. So if you want to avoid instant death caused by traps, you`d have to train doors&traps skill.


This is the whole point of removing mechanical traps - unavoidable instant deaths aren't interesting and means that every player has to train T&D to win the game. Traps are fun if they have the potential to create sudden decision-making situations.

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