Revisions to boring or redundant monsters

[Guppyfry]

My vote would be that rats get left alone, since they are involved in summoning by players and monsters. Porcupines should be made "giant" and get AC/HP/damage all increased to fit better with their depth. I can't find a reference to their ability and I've never noticed it, but a weak pain mirror versus melee would be cool. If it already exists then it needs to be increased in power.

The mites and centipedes would get the swarming ability (a modified slime creature merge ability) to make them notable and spice up the early D, although I don't think their packs should be too large until deep in their range.

Wolves could get an alarm trap ability (howling - they don't have this already do they? If so, it should be increased in power) and I also like the idea above of war dogs getting a tracking ability on top of the alarm. To further differentiate, add flavor, and provide more variation to the early D I'd argue that war dogs should only show up with humanoids and maybe solitary ones could show up with gnolls. Although that may be a bit too nasty early. Regardless I think that all floating packs of war dogs should be replaced with wolves (especially in the lair at least) and that war dogs should be a special "companion" monster, maybe big kobolds, as well as gnolls, could come with a war dog(s) too. Maybe centaurs too.

Worms could split on "death" as was mentioned above for centipedes. I think when you "kill" the worm it should split into 1-3 small worms that are like slower tougher versions of bats (ie chaotic movement and around speed:18, HP:10 dam:6 same AC/EV as worm) In some situations it would make timing the kill important.

[onton]

My vote would be that rats get left alone, since they are involved in summoning by players and monsters. Porcupines should be made "giant" and get AC/HP/damage all increased to fit better with their depth. I can't find a reference to their ability and I've never noticed it, but a weak pain mirror versus melee would be cool. If it already exists then it needs to be increased in power.

The mites and centipedes would get the swarming ability (a modified slime creature merge ability) to make them notable and spice up the early D, although I don't think their packs should be too large until deep in their range.

Wolves could get an alarm trap ability (howling - they don't have this already do they? If so, it should be increased in power) and I also like the idea above of war dogs getting a tracking ability on top of the alarm. To further differentiate, add flavor, and provide more variation to the early D I'd argue that war dogs should only show up with humanoids and maybe solitary ones could show up with gnolls. Although that may be a bit too nasty early. Regardless I think that all floating packs of war dogs should be replaced with wolves (especially in the lair at least) and that war dogs should be a special "companion" monster, maybe big kobolds, as well as gnolls, could come with a war dog(s) too. Maybe centaurs too.

Worms could split on "death" as was mentioned above for centipedes. I think when you "kill" the worm it should split into 1-3 small worms that are like slower tougher versions of bats (ie chaotic movement and around speed:18, HP:10 dam:6 same AC/EV as worm) In some situations it would make timing the kill important.

Swarms of centipedes could easily kill a low-level player - their poison is already quite strong.

[Roderic]

I like the effect of reborn worms whenever they are sliced or chopped, as worms can do this indeed.

The swarming ability should be given to killer bees, but much more prone to join and split than slime creatures are. Let them to be weaker individually than currently are and also have a bat-like motion. This way you are really fighting a swarm of bees.

[jejorda2]

I like the effect of reborn worms whenever they are sliced or chopped, as worms can do this indeed.

The swarming ability should be given to killer bees, but much more prone to join and split than slime creatures are. Let them to be weaker individually than currently are and also have a bat-like motion. This way you are really fighting a swarm of bees.

Bat motion combined with joining sounds really good.

[twelwe]

Jellies in Brogue can easily turn into a huge threat for any character because they have a chance of splitting upon being hit. The split target does not gain health, but has the same attack speed and damage. One jelly can easily turn into 8, and this only has the effect of forcing the player to drag jellies into specific terrain. Swarming might sound cool - I think monsters already do this - but it may encourage more kiting. Giving this ability to a poisonous creature will flat out tell players that they need to kite in order to deal with them.

[XuaXua]

Jellies in Brogue can easily turn into a huge threat for any character because they have a chance of splitting upon being hit. The split target does not gain health, but has the same attack speed and damage. One jelly can easily turn into 8, and this only has the effect of forcing the player to drag jellies into specific terrain. Swarming might sound cool - I think monsters already do this - but it may encourage more kiting. Giving this ability to a poisonous creature will flat out tell players that they need to kite in order to deal with them.

Great vault lately with crimson imps trapped behind teleporter trap tiles.
Need a similar one with red jellies and a jiyva altar.

[Sarfus]

I like the effect of reborn worms whenever they are sliced or chopped, as worms can do this indeed.

Unfortunately this is not true. However, if it's verisimilitude you are after, a lot of worms are simultaneous hermaphrodites and reproduce really fast, so merging into slimy sperm pods before splitting into four could totally be on the table. *gross*

Porcupines should be made "giant" and get AC/HP/damage all increased to fit better with their depth.

Personally I think the lair has enough tanky loners. I agree that a mirror damage (maybe proportional? though this might encourage self-nerfing with trash weapons - or just give it a cap to remedy?) would be interesting. The wiki has the damage returned from 'spiny' as HDd4 (a wimpy 2d4 for porcupines) - can anyone confirm this? Apparently this mechanic is being used for the new Hell Sentinels, so i suppose that porcupines would just have to scale up to make it more effective. However, alone it runs the risk of just encouraging kiting/punishing melee without offering any interesting alternative. Perhaps they could be given a big speed upgrade along with higher HD and a weak to average melee attack making their spines their main source of damage output. Spawn in groups of 2-3? This would move them out of pure popcorn into the zones of annoyance/harass monsters. This could be accompanied by a change in flavour eg. they roll into an offensive spiky ball (giant hedgehogs???) upon noticing the player with accompanying large buff in speed and small buff in damage, in this state they cannot travel on stairs. This leaves an armoured melee player the options of putting up with annoyance/harass damage till they can get out of the level or just duking it out and taking the corresponding larger hit in returned damage, and a caster the always prevalent option to nuke, or to try to run early to escape the high speed.

Rats
Putting mechanical considerations aside for a moment, I would desperately love to see the flavour reworked for these guys. Green, orange and grey are hardly imaginative or interesting handles. "Plague" for green and "gnarled" for grey seem like two possible alternatives that took a whole two seconds to think up. Orange rats are perhaps the most frustrating because of the lack of indication that they have draining attacks (I've always assumed that they must be a shout out to something, otherwise the mind boggles).

Mechanic suggestion: replace grey rat with "rabid rat" for an early nerfed version of a moth of wrath. Spawns with other rat packs, attacks nearest thing that is not enraged with a weak melee attack for a chance to make it berserk. (could also potentially berserk the player?). Not sure if this would be very effective, but it might serve as an interesting introduction to a mechanic that can be potentially overwhelming for newer players, plus also would increase drastically in danger depending on what appeared in the area.

Off topic/auxiliary suggestions:

Spoiler: show

-escaped white mice swarms in wizlabs with chaos brand attacks.
-Why if there are so many rats is there no pied piper styled unique? (Eustachio doesn't count!) Summon rats + smite-targeted/within-earshot resistable make player dance ability. Make it happen people!

+1 to all the suggestions about tracking hounds. That would be really fun if it could be pulled off.

[Dingbat]

Multiple-tile centipedes sound interesting. Having an insect that can lengthen itself to potentially block your access to a corridor or the stairs would prompt you to reassess the situation as soon as you see a centipede amongst a pack of monsters.

[Roderic]

Some rats could make you sick as well, remember about European black plague, but now it is an exclusive gimmick of komodo's dragons, which are restricted to Lair, AFAIK. Is there some source of sickness in main dungeon or other branches ?

About tracking hounds, the easiest way to do this is by plain unfair cheating, giving your current position from time to time to condition the AI of the hound. Another possibility, not necessarily incompatible, could be to track your position with hints based on your blood trails in case you are bleeding: the game should distinguish between bloody positions caused by your blood and others caused by the rest (if they mix or superpose your trail is lost), therefore the blood trail gives a sampling of the path you have taken, helping the hounds to chase after you.

I think that the synergy between tracking AIs and blood trails is challenging and converts the bleeding in something interesting rather than gory decoration.

Besides, there could exist a tactical spell of necromancy to create a bloody decoy that leaves a false trail to confound your trackers (hounds, dogs, wolves or whatever else that uses this resource of information ).

[roctavian]

Here's how things are looking so far:

Canines
Wolves and war dogs can either be merged, or war dogs can be kept as a unique monster that shows up with Grum. Hounds and wolves (and possibly war dogs) could be given some kind of tracking bonus. Possibly this could work with blood -- I like the idea of it but I think it may be hard to turn it into something clear and meaningful.

Mites and Centipedes
These have a variety of suggestions without much consensus. I don't really think that multi-tile monsters are feasible despite suggesting it myself; I do like the idea of giant centipedes that split up into smaller ones when killed, but that is just my own feeling. I suggested sickness instead of poison for mites, and I still kind of favor this idea despite the fact that sickness isn't threatening, simply because it introduces a concept earlier in the game than Lair.

Rats and Porcupine
I think most people who've weighed in on this discussion agree that porcupine damage reflection could be buffed (and perhaps their damage nerfed to compensate, but that's probably unnecessary). There is virtually no consensus on what to do to rats, but I do think it is important to consider how they show up with summon small mammal.

Nothing seems to be wrong with lizards.

Soon I'll edit the OP and make another post for another batch of monsters -- are there any further thoughts about the ones we've discussed so far?

[palin]

Speaking about wolves, I'd rather rename that to Cave Wolves or Dire Wolves, it just doesn't fit to me lone wolves in a dungeon...

[XuaXua]

Moon Wolves; come in packs of 3.

[roctavian]

Here are more monsters for discussion:

Ooze
I should have included this enemy in the previous batch. I feel like oozes could be used to introduce more game concepts early on. They do as much damage as a giant gecko but move slowly, the extra HP isn't enough to make them threatening. What if they worked like slime creatures in reverse, splitting when hit? Each part gets half the HP of the original, and it doesn't split when in corridors (the player has enough of an advantage in corridors anyway). This doesn't make oozes into any serious threat and I don't think they need to be one, but it could be some good gameplay flavor.
Giant Slug, Agate Snail, Elephant Slug
The problem with slow melee monsters has been discussed before -- their stats are irrelevant if you can just walk away. Snails are somewhat alright, what with retreating into their shells, but the other two are rarely interesting except as corridor plugs. I liked a previous suggestion that these creatures might leave slime trails that slow the player/other creatures -- maybe they can be generated awake and can leave Leda's Liquifaction-style slime that sticks around for quite a while.
Hippogriff, Griffon
Mentally I tend to classify hippogriffs as easy meals. Griffons can be threatening if they show up after you've already been weakened in another fight -- but I think the big problem is that they're just more melee threats. I'm not sure what can be done, considering how the mythological counterparts to these monsters don't do anything besides fly around. Perhaps they can have some kind of screeching ability that induces fear? I'm grasping at straws.
Crocodile, Baby Alligator, Alligator
Someone mentioned in the previous thread that baby alligators exist because alligator packs would be too dangerous at the depths they tend to show up at. I like the burst of speed alligators get, and I think they're the best monsters out of this set, but I really have no ideas for the other two.

[jejorda2]

Elephant slugs hit hard enough and have enough HP that if you choose to run away and explore elsewhere, they tend to catch up with you and become a problem. So you do have to deal with them, and they have enough HP that you can run out of MP trying to blast them. It's not safe to melee them, and it takes forever to kite them with darts or slings. Kiting a half dead elephant slug when a spiny frog shows up and your mana bar is depleted is already interesting enough that they don't much need changing.

I agree that Giant Slugs are easy meals if you have rPois. Maybe a slime attack that reduces melee accuracy until you walk through water or wait a large number of turns? That wouldn't hurt anyone who has a ranged attack, and we already have slow.. Could it prevent spellcasting by gunking up your hands and your mouth? Or maybe after you step in the trail, your movements make loud "schlop schlop" sounds as you unstick your feet from the floor?


I think if flight were made more interesting, it would help Hippogriffs and others. Unless there is terrain or you have a weapon of electrocution or some air spells, you don't really care what can and can't fly. What if flying creatures got a submerge-like status called "soaring" when they were not adjacent to a wall, such that they can't be attacked at range?

[Ossuary]

Why does every monster need a special effect? If there are three very similar monsters that just differ in difficulty, isn't that fine? Removing the weaker variety will make the game harder for low level characters etc.

[Lasty]

I agree with Ossuary. Ordinary monsters help out weak characters and new players. Also, if there are no "vanilla" monsters, the special ones will stand out less -- every time you see any monster it'll have some weird quirk you have to handle.

[Galefury]

That's how it is in brogue, pretty much (there is a progression of melee enemies with no abilities, but all enemies are very distinct). It works very well, but the number of monsters is quite small, and the game in general is smaller and shorter. I think in crawl it would cause problems. Having similar monsters that are mostly different in theme is okay IMO, especially if they are not in the same branch.

Irrelevant bags of free xp like snails and slugs are not very interesting, though.

[roctavian]

Note that I addressed this issue in the OP: ideas on the Tavern are so far from the realm of reality that they may as well not exist. Also, we have already discussed the various aspects of idea bloat / fake variety / removal or non-removal in the last thread.

I definitely agree that there's no problem with having a number of vanilla monsters differentiated only by theme; the purpose of this thread is not the discussion of that general issue, but rather the discussion of individual monsters a few at a time.

[Roderic]

They are not *so* boring.

Hyppogryphs and gryphs can peck you and fly and are tough the first time you encounter them. If they appeared in packs they would be as nasty as flying yaks

The crocodile is plain but alligators have burst. I suppose nobody wants them to submerge when fleeing, but they could be submerged (completely undetectable) and appear when you are near to them.

Oozes, I have always though that they should be immune to pain and torment (which kind of neural system have ?).

[jejorda2]

Oozes, I have always though that they should be immune to pain and torment (which kind of neural system have ?).

I personally like enemies that are difficult for some classes but just another popcorn for other classes. Conjurers don't care whether they are blasting a jelly or a wolf from a distance, but axe wielders don't care that the imp is immune to fireball.

What if there were some enemy that could only be attacked from the diagonal, and never from directly vertical or horizontal? Hippogriff wings deflect could direct attacks.

[Roderic]

Oozes, I have always though that they should be immune to pain and torment (which kind of neural system have ?).

I personally like enemies that are difficult for some classes but just another popcorn for other classes. Conjurers don't care whether they are blasting a jelly or a wolf from a distance, but axe wielders don't care that the imp is immune to fireball.

What if there were some enemy that could only be attacked from the diagonal, and never from directly vertical or horizontal? Hippogriff wings deflect could direct attacks.

In a corridor you'd be feck'd, in a dead-end corridor you'd be almost doomed

[JeffQyzt]

What if there were some enemy that could only be attacked from the diagonal, and never from directly vertical or horizontal? Hippogriff wings deflect could direct attacks.

Anti-gridbugs?

[varsovie]

Oozes, I have always though that they should be immune to pain and torment (which kind of neural system have ?).

I personally like enemies that are difficult for some classes but just another popcorn for other classes. Conjurers don't care whether they are blasting a jelly or a wolf from a distance, but axe wielders don't care that the imp is immune to fireball.

What if there were some enemy that could only be attacked from the diagonal, and never from directly vertical or horizontal? Hippogriff wings deflect could direct attacks.

That is a good gameplay concept, but not applicable to Crawl since dungeon generation and combat mechanics would have to be reworked.
I would like to have an enemy with direction based attack (or defense bonus), but how to represent this in ASCII that one monster can actually attack only from top to bottom?

[jejorda2]

How is it represented in ASCII (or tiles) that orc priests can smite, while orc wizards can can attack with a clear line of sight and orcs can attack at melee range?

Yes, you're likely to die if you can't get over water or through warriors to deal with an orc priest, or if you go into an open area to attack a group of orc warriors, or if you attack an invincible-from-the-side enemy in a horizontal corridor.

The absolutely invincible idea is probably bad, but an angle-based bonus might be workable for all I know.

[Sjohara]

I don't really have an issue with Hippogryphs. They're kind of like the next step up from Iguanas, in that they're nominally weak but very prone to showing up early when you can't necessarily handle them (and are likely to underestimate them because they don't set off the same flags in your mind as something like an Ogre). Griffins look like they should hypothetically be able to do the same thing, but I don't really have the same feeling about them...maybe they come in too late to matter, or maybe they're just not as common.

Oozes are just barely tough enough that classes with crappy martial ability need to worry about them if they're forced into melee, but the fact that you can just kite them forever while your mana regens leaves them as more of a nuisance than anything. There's only so much you can do at DL1 without sabotaging the weaker backgrounds' chances, though...I'm not sure what do to here.

I'd say there are definitely more slugs and snail than there need to be. Even if you have no ranged abilities you can usually alternate attacking and running and barely ever get hit. I'd suggest that they spit gobs of goo at you that slow you down, but that would still make them largely harmless when they appear alone. Flat-out cutting something here wouldn't be a terrible thing, though.

Crocodiles and alligators are known as ambush predators. Maybe they're normally invisible until you get within X tiles of them (occasionally spottable with T&D skill)? X could be larger than 1, to differentiate them from trapdoor spiders, but since they have the burst of speed they could potentially close a small gap quite fast. This would hurt ranged backgrounds somewhat, which would probably be a plus in the Lair (honestly I forgot the dash even existed; I'm usually able to nuke them from range even with weak spells no problem). Realistically that behavior would be limited to water, but in practice that might restrict them too much unless the Lair got a lot more ponds.

[Roderic]

We should summarize the proposed effects/actions given here independently of the monster which was originally thought for: I've seen good ideas that could be implemented in one or another way.

[mumra]

Idea for snails:

1. Make snail AI prefer the narrow, cramped spaces of corridors
2. Implement the snail trails suggestion

This combined means that the corridors on a snail-ridden level could get completely slimed up, changing the territory and forcing the player more into open space if they don't kill the snails quickly. (Also, make snails move faster when out of LOS ... altho really this is wandering shrooms' trick).

For some reason I feel there should be a rare "acid slime" snail (maybe a unique). The acid slime could (10% chance) burn right through the floor and create a new shaft.

Gecko

Returning to an earlier topic but I just had this thought and in the interests of brainstorming: Geckos could get a tongue attack which pulls the player closer or disarms them. When disarming they could swallow your weapon / hat / whatever and you have to kill them to get it back. However this might still be more interesting later in the game, perhaps on a frog, or maybe another unique.

Also, do geckos have cling? They should do

[galehar]

Also, do geckos have cling?

They do.

[Roderic]

I like the idea of giving slimy trails an effect: may be slow, may be acid.

I'm thinking on some monster that, following the same concept, can deploy some kind of land mines (or lay buried eggs) that "explodes" when near. Maybe a giant termite queen ?

[varsovie]

I like the idea of giving slimy trails an effect: may be slow, may be acid.

I'm thinking on some monster that, following the same concept, can deploy some kind of land mines (or lay buried eggs) that "explodes" when near. Maybe a giant termite queen ?

Why add termites while we have ants already?

For the ooze, give him the ability to pads through walls (and remove him from D1) has an early introduction to the wall worm (or whatever it's called).

Also more monsters that get out of the normal floor tiles may be cool, eg rats can go through closed doors and under plants/fungi.