Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 332

Joined: Friday, 15th July 2011, 22:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 07:06

Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

The purpose of this thread will be to discuss new weapon effects like reaching and cleave, partly for the sake of brainstorming and partly to keep the Cleave thread focused on balance/testing discussion.

I want to draw everyone's attention to the more appropriate wiki page

rather than the less appropriate wiki page

so that we're all caught up on the ideas so far.

I'm focusing this thread on Long Blades and M&F because the other remaining classes -- Staves and Short Blades -- seem to be spoken for already. Merging short blades and stabbing seems to be an idea a lot of people favor, so I don't think we need to think of anything else for those. Staves are covered by the various magic enhancer types, in my opinion, but YMMV.

A popular idea is to keep long blades as the "vanilla" weapon type, without any special effect. I like this idea a lot, actually.

Another idea I like is to combine "sidestep" from the dev wiki with "open ground attack." If you move around an enemy you just hit, you continue making hits against it with a small EV bonus for moving. This would be broken if you or the enemy steps out of melee range, and would be difficult to pull off in corridors or against multiple opponents. Because of this, I feel it would thematically work best with long blades, but then again I like the idea of keeping a weapon class vanilla and I think long blades should be it. It also wouldn't play well with autofight.

I have nothing for Maces and Flails, none of the existing proposals really stand out to me as on the level of reach or cleave. Which is why I posted this thread! Please, let's hear your thoughts.
Last edited by roctavian on Saturday, 22nd September 2012, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 341

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 10:10

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 07:17

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I as a first suggestion would remove completely "block" from two handed axes.
Maces and Flails should have some way of negating some Armour/GDR since it's difficult to absorb shock damage even if you're in full plate, and some impact weapons (especially two-handed ones) were specifically designed to damage heavy armour.
My wins so far - FeBe, KoBe, DsCo, MDFi, DsBe

Spider Stomper

Posts: 231

Joined: Saturday, 18th February 2012, 04:40

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 08:18

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

How bout a snare (slow) effect on LBs? Keep monsters from running.
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 300

Joined: Saturday, 21st May 2011, 08:23

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 08:37

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I do not understand, what is the effect 'brainstorm,' I have never encountered it before
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay

For this message the author sardonica has received thanks:
mumra
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 08:40

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

The wiki page is a bit outdated. A lot of stuff on it has been discussed. I'll try to clean it up when I have some time but here are a few pointers.

  • short blade and stabbing merge. Seems a consensus. The only trouble is what to do with kitten stabbing. Using their UC skill would push them in the stabbing playstyle, just removing their UC stab bonus would disable the stabbing playstyle for them. Both solutions reduce their variety which is already the smallest on. On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't let a badly designed species prevent us from improving the rest of the game.
  • staves double attack effect seems ok, but not on enhancer staves.
  • M&F AC ignoring effect is realistic but not very interesting gameplay-wise. A stunning effect is not terrible, but not great either. And I think no effect is better than a meh one. So the new idea is to keep both M&F and long blades "plain" weapons, and to differentiate them by pushing them further in a slow/powerful vs fast/weak differentiation. This could be done as a part of the weapon stat rebalance which will have to be done with the new speed formula. There will be exceptions (whips and triple sword) and it's fine.
  • side-step and charge ideas are dropped. They don't fit well in crawl.
  • the weapon speed change seems good. It will be tested in a branch.
  • accuracy formula is ok, the problem comes from the melee_attack::test_hit function. It makes accuracy very important early on and meaningless later. No plan yet on how to improve it.
  • the formula for effect of stats on accuracy and damage is good, it just need its effect doubled or tripled. Will probably be done alongside the weapon speed change.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
radzia

Halls Hopper

Posts: 57

Joined: Saturday, 28th April 2012, 08:55

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 09:02

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

What exactly is the "weapon speed change" you are speaking of? I remember reading something like that on dev wiki, but can't remember what was the conclusion.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 341

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 10:10

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 09:20

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:M&F AC ignoring effect is realistic but not very interesting gameplay-wise.


Why not? It's a choice. Will I go M&F knowing that I will do more damage to armoured opponents or will I go long blades knowing that robe-wearing elves will receive more attack on average?

For felids, if stabbing is melded into short blades, I suggest giving a race-specific stabbing bonus (called "hunting instinct") which goes up with character level and adjusting experience accordingly to compensate for this "free" skill. Non-stabber felids will benefit less from this but berserkers will nonetheless use this from time to time and maybe even casters can get something out of this.
My wins so far - FeBe, KoBe, DsCo, MDFi, DsBe

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 11:12

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Don't forget that slow powerful attacks are better against armor than fast weak ones. So with galehar's proposal M&F would already be improved against armored enemies without any additional change in formulas.

By the way, brogue also has slow maces (twice the usual delay after attacking) which often kill weak or unaware enemies in a single hit. I haven't played enough brogue to say anything about how well such huge speed difference would work in crawl, though.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 11:33

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

MIC132 wrote:What exactly is the "weapon speed change" you are speaking of? I remember reading something like that on dev wiki, but can't remember what was the conclusion.

Make weapon speed increases linearly from skill 0 to 27 for all weapons. Read the wiki page linked at the top for more details.

palin wrote:Why not? It's a choice. Will I go M&F knowing that I will do more damage to armoured opponents or will I go long blades knowing that robe-wearing elves will receive more attack on average?

As Galefury explained, we can achieve exactly the same result just by tweaking weapon stats, no need to make it a special effect.

Galefury wrote:By the way, brogue also has slow maces (twice the usual delay after attacking) which often kill weak or unaware enemies in a single hit.

Except that brogue's implementation is very different than just a double delay. After a mace attack, you cannot attack again but you can move. So a typical fight goes <whack>, <move>, <whack>, <move>, etc... until surrounded. It works in brogue because there is much less enemies, but it would be terrible in crawl.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Slime Squisher

Posts: 341

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 10:10

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 11:48

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:As Galefury explained, we can achieve exactly the same result just by tweaking weapon stats, no need to make it a special effect.


Ok even if I think that slowing maces more than what they are now at skill 0 will definitely make them unusable to starting characters.
What about some additional less relevant effect to compensate? I'm just thinking something like shield crushing. Few enemies use shields but if you meet one (like Wiglaf or Mennas) it could be flavourful.
My wins so far - FeBe, KoBe, DsCo, MDFi, DsBe

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 11:54

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I want to bring up the OP's open ground proposal again. As I see it, it'd work well with swords, so I phrase it that way:

If you attack an enemy with a sword and move in the next turn, you still get a sword attack on that monster (assuming you and the monster are still adjacent, of course).

On M&F: seconding galefury and galehar. A plain numerical effect (like reduced AC) is as interesting as is the vorpal brand, i.e. not very. When we're going to distinguish weapons, it should be something that's noticeable in game.

Sidestep: If you want to test it out, check Crawl Light. For rawrmage's Crawl Light server: telnet dashify.me
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 12:05

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

dpeg wrote:If you attack an enemy with a sword and move in the next turn, you still get a sword attack on that monster (assuming you and the monster are still adjacent, of course).

So, what's the point? It gives a little more tactical flexibility, like hiding behind the monster to avoid another one's ranged attack, or moving toward an escape route while still attacking the monster. Seems like it would rarely be relevant.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 12:07

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Teleportation wands are rarely relevant too, if we're to put it so.

A bit unfair comparision, perhaps. But who said more strategy than A - Attack, B - Move isn't better.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 12:23

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:
dpeg wrote:If you attack an enemy with a sword and move in the next turn, you still get a sword attack on that monster (assuming you and the monster are still adjacent, of course).

So, what's the point? It gives a little more tactical flexibility, like hiding behind the monster to avoid another one's ranged attack, or moving toward an escape route while still attacking the monster. Seems like it would rarely be relevant.

Yes, but it's an actual tactical option. Note that cleaving is also much less often relevant than most people think (that's my private assessment, of course). Generally, you will want to stay in a corridor. But if you're in the open for whatever reason (bad luck, or to maximise gains from a buff), then cleaving and the proposed sword effect matter. By the way, the sword effect can be strengthened as follows:

If you attack enemy A with a sword and in the next turn either move (so that @ and A are still adjacent) or attack enemy B (and A ist still adjacent to @), then you get a free attack on A. That's much weaker than cleaving, but better than the original proposal.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 12:52

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Maces should be slower than swords, and damage more effectively foes with are of a solid build: skeletons & golems > outer skeleton > inner skeleton living beings > soft, intangible beings

More or less the idea is than it is easier to kill a cockroach with a mace than with a sword, the same for skeletons and such. Perhaps we could recover the Str and Dex bonus to M&F and LB, respectively; axes fall in the middle

In the other hand, whips are the rule exception, since they are flails which act as flexible blades, more prone to cut than to break
Last edited by Roderic on Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:03, edited 1 time in total.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:02

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

dpeg wrote:If you attack enemy A with a sword and in the next turn either move (so that @ and A are still adjacent) or attack enemy B (and A ist still adjacent to @), then you get a free attack on A. That's much weaker than cleaving, but better than the original proposal.

No, I think this version is worse. When next to 2 enemies, you'd have to alternate attacks to maximize damage output.

Roderic wrote:Maces should be slower than swords, and damage more effectively foes with are of a solid build: skeletons & golems > outer skeleton > inner skeleton living beings > soft, intangible beings

More or less the idea is than it is easier to kill a cockroach with a mace than with a sword, the same for skeletons and such.

This is realistic but the gameplay effect is that you have to remember which weapon is more efficient against which type of enemies. It adds complication without really increasing choices. Weapon effects should be about tactics, not situational bonus/penalties.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:05

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I thought tactics in a case such as this exactly is "situational bonuses". But what should I know.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:12

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

If bleeding effect were more interesting, perhaps LB (and even whips) could cause it because of cuts, slashes and thrusts, but I don't really like the idea too much
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

For this message the author Roderic has received thanks:
XuaXua

Snake Sneak

Posts: 113

Joined: Saturday, 12th May 2012, 21:18

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:17

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Would a retaliatory attack ala minotaurs with a long blade after a successful dodge be a bad idea? It could trigger once per turn. This would make long blades a bit better in 1-1 combat and it's a weapon effect that scales with another skill. Of course, this steps on minotaurs so it's probably not a good idea (unless minotaurs were removed ;)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3163

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 18:45

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:22

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:
dpeg wrote:If you attack enemy A with a sword and in the next turn either move (so that @ and A are still adjacent) or attack enemy B (and A ist still adjacent to @), then you get a free attack on A. That's much weaker than cleaving, but better than the original proposal.

No, I think this version is worse. When next to 2 enemies, you'd have to alternate attacks to maximize damage output.

I don't know that alternating targets to maximize damage output is such a terrible thing. Already everyone's saying that cleaving is nice but it's still better to fight in a hallway. The same would apply to this ability, and it would be in keeping with the Long Blades concept of weaker, faster attacks. I do prefer the original proposal's emphasis on movement, however. The tactical applications of it are more interesting than hit target a then hit target b.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 13:27

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

danharaj wrote:Would a retaliatory attack ala minotaurs with a long blade after a successful dodge be a bad idea? It could trigger once per turn. This would make long blades a bit better in 1-1 combat and it's a weapon effect that scales with another skill. Of course, this steps on minotaurs so it's probably not a good idea (unless minotaurs were removed ;)


Or a free attack as "en passant", I mean, if you are close to a foe and move to another position still adjacent to it, you could get an attack as if you were moving towards it. This way you could move and attack altogether, and making swords a weapon to attack with movility in open spaces. Notice that this does not apply if you were immobile and is the monster which moves around your position. Currently all attacks are made from the same position, either long range with spears or cleaving with axes. Move+attack is the key I think.

Edit: more developing on this, probably in case of moving to several monsters adjacent to you the options are: a) attack the one you have been previously harmed if it is the case, b) deal with the easy or more harmed target, c) randomly select one of them, d) be able to choose which one you want to attack.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 14:20

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Along the same idea, instead of giving a free attack while moving, long blades could occasionally give a free move while attacking. This move could be used to position yourself away from a melee threat or close to a ranged threat, or to move into an escape route, or to gain distance to use a ranged attack.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1509

Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 14:46

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Long Blades - vanilla, big damage
M&F - chance to stun target, based on damage dealt vs HD.
Won all race/bg, unwon (online): Nem* Hep Uka
Favourites: 15-rune Trog, OgNe/OgIE/OgSu (usually Ash), Ds, Ru, SpEn, Ce of Chei, Qaz
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 14:48

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Regarding swords and open ground attacks, how about you get a free attack whenever moving to a cell with a monster adjacent to it. Meaning you get first hit when moving next to a monster, you can move around a monster and keep attacking it. You can move through a pack of monster while landing attacks left and right. Whenever you move and there's several monsters adjacent to you, a random one is attacked. Maybe weight it with the last one attacked or the direction of the move.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

zrn

User avatar

Snake Sneak

Posts: 112

Joined: Friday, 25th February 2011, 01:38

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 15:28

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:Regarding swords and open ground attacks, how about you get a free attack whenever moving to a cell with a monster adjacent to it. Meaning you get first hit when moving next to a monster, you can move around a monster and keep attacking it. You can move through a pack of monster while landing attacks left and right. Whenever you move and there's several monsters adjacent to you, a random one is attacked. Maybe weight it with the last one attacked or the direction of the move.

That sounds like a lot of fun.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 15:37

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar: Yes, I believe some of the things we've talked about for swords have potential. The free attack also fits a bit with stabbing, in my opinion.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 15:45

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:Regarding swords and open ground attacks, how about you get a free attack whenever moving to a cell with a monster adjacent to it. Meaning you get first hit when moving next to a monster, you can move around a monster and keep attacking it. You can move through a pack of monster while landing attacks left and right. Whenever you move and there's several monsters adjacent to you, a random one is attacked. Maybe weight it with the last one attacked or the direction of the move.


I like it. This would mostly help with chaff (orc priest + band, elves, summoners, and lots of other stuff) and with ranged enemies (1 free hit on centaurs/yaktaurs/annihilators/liches/etc.). I don't think it would help with tactical movement to use enemies as cover because the cover would quickly be dead. But it would simplify initiating combat in all other cases: no need to wait for the enemy to move towards you, you get the first hit either way. How to handle attack delay is a major problem, though: if movement delay is shorter than attack delay, moving around would let you speed up your attacks. This is especially problematic for fast races and with swiftness or boots of running. The other way around attacking with fast weapons would be faster when standing still than when moving, although I think that is a smaller problem. It would allow more movement attacks with fast weapons for fast-moving characters, though. Also it would mean engaging melee enemies by waiting for them to come into melee range is still optimal with a fast weapon. Clarity is an issue in both cases: newer players might not realize these differences in action speed for quite a long time.

I can think of several ways to handle attack delay, each with their own problems. I'll list all of them so they can be discussed:

1) A simple solution would be to only allow movement attacks if attack delay is less than movement delay. Harsh towards fast races, and would be quite weird when using swiftness or a weapon upgrade would disable movement attacks, but a clear and simple solution with no further fuss. Also makes sense: if you cant even attack quickly with a weapon, you certainly wont be able to attack quickly while moving. Obviously it would be super annoying that the auto-attacks would sometimes work and sometimes not. Slowdown of fast weapon attacks while moving and the effect of movement speed on this slowdown remains.

2) Use the maximum delay for the combined action. This means you might want to switch to a quick weapon for moving past enemies towards your priority target in the orc priest scenario so you don't get slowed down. Probably not worth it most of the time, though. And of course for killing yaktaurs or regular enemy engagement you can keep your triple sword on. If there is something along the path towards those yaktaurs you get screwed, though: not only is your cover gone because you killed it (this is the case with any version of these open ground attacks), but also you took longer to get to melee range. The same is true for disengaging from a group of enemies. Delay got a lot more transparent with the turn display default now being game time, so an observant player should soon become aware of how this works. It is also easy to explain, and would allow players to rely on movement attacks (they would always work). They could no longer rely on their movement delay being constant however. It might be a bit fiddly, variable move delay could get really annoying (although someone who tried euclidean said it didn't bother him in that case, so might be fine). Slowdown of fast weapon attacks while moving and the effect of movement speed on this slowdown remains.

3) A variation of 1): movement attacks don't activate all the time, but with movement_delay/attack_delay probability, leading to the same average attack speed the weapon would have for stationary attacks. Giving a chance for multiple attacks when movement delay is longer than attack delay would allow keeping the attack speed of fast weapons fast while moving. This variant would keep movement delay constant and reliable, but make movement attacks unreliable because of the random nature. This means it is still optimal to engage melee enemies by waiting for them to come into range to guarantee the first attack, losing one of the nice advantages of the movement attacks proposal.

4) Movement attacks only trigger if the delay of the last movement attack is over. So a delay 12 attack would trigger only on every second move. You could still attack directly after making a movement attack with a high-delay weapon, so the initial engagement attack would be sped up (making it optimal to engage by stepping towards the enemy when using a slow weapon), while attacks during continued movement would be slowed down or capped at movement speed. A variant using probabilities depending on movement delay, attack delay, and the time since the last movement attack is also possible and would make this much more continuous. In the all-or-nothing version I proposed there are huge breakpoints. The disadvantages of using probabilities are listed in 3). Depending on the variant slowdown of fast weapon attacks while moving and the effect of movement speed on this slowdown remains or not.

I really have no idea which of these would be best.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 15:58

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I don't really like the long blades suggetion because it feels very similar to reaching. The main benefit of reaching is you get to attack one turn earlier ... the main benefit of this long blades move+attack is you get to attack one turn earlier.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 11

Joined: Sunday, 1st May 2011, 08:44

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 16:04

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Long blades
- Disarm: doesn't bring you the weapon (like a whip might), but causes it to be dropped. It could even be "thrown" (blink so it doesn't go in lava/deep water) a short distance away. Chance to disarm could be based on weapon skill, monster HD (e.g. not easy to disarm Cerebov), and/or opposing weapon type (e.g. maybe it's more difficult to disarm heavy weapons and/or two-handers).

Maces and Flails
- Crush: a rare "critical hit" that occasionally helps against tough enemies. Positions M&F as the high-variance damage output weapon type. Unlike stabbing, it doesn't require the target to be incapacitated. Chance to crush should remain small, but could be based on weapon skill, opposing monster size (e.g. easier to crush small targets), and/or opposing monster type (e.g. easier to crush fragile things that LRD can blow up, like skeletons). This also offers an opportunity for more cool flavor text (e.g. pillowcase).
- Baseball: chance to block/reflect some projectiles. Makes more sense for big solid things like rocks but less sense for fast skinny things like arrows. To be relevant, it'd also have to work on some kinds of spells.
- Smash: destroy closed doors, idols/statues, and/or fragile monsters while damaging things behind them. M&F users don't open doors... they smash them open!

In my opinion, it's OK to make a special weapon effect that only kicks in occasionally. That way, it can have a bigger effect and surprise/delight the user.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4434

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 16:12

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't let a badly designed species prevent us from improving the rest of the game.

Or, alternately, on Felids, the "Short Blades" skill displays as "Stabbing" and can be trained and used as now.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks:
Roderic
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 16:38

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

shock wrote:Maces and Flails

- Smash: destroy closed doors, idols/statues, and/or fragile monsters while damaging things behind them. M&F users don't open doors... they smash them open!

In my opinion, it's OK to make a special weapon effect that only kicks in occasionally. That way, it can have a bigger effect and surprise/delight the user.


I don't see any reason to destroy doors since they are not locked and closing them prevents some monsters to chase after you. Another issue should be design lockable doors but nobody cares for them.

I agree with the unreliable aspect of some weapone effect. Axes cleaving now is present always so is reaching.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 536

Joined: Wednesday, 10th August 2011, 01:06

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 17:22

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I'm going to suggest that maces simply mangle their target; inducing slow and bleeding would be enough. It'd make them great against single monsters without resorting to a boring "they just have good stats" type deal.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 17:34

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:side-step and charge ideas are dropped

Shame about charge, I can see it making repeatedly disengaging and charging back optimal (and not very fun) but you'd have to be faster than monsters for that and you can already kite slower monsters with polearms.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 18:07

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I think the best suggestion for M&F is to make them slower, but give them the ability to debuff opponents. A simple progression of

1. Lower targets to hit, base damage, EV, armour - "the monster winces in pain"
2. +Slow - "the monster is stunned"
3. +Confuse - "the monster staggers around in shock"

Whether you get a debuff is random bassed off of weapon skill. Severity is based off of dammage done and targets HD. All should be very short term. These effects obviously would not work against undead, golems or similar creatures.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 21:06

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

I'd just like to throw in my newbie vote toward -not- leaving LB as a 'vanilla' weapon, and especially not leaving both LB and M&F as vanilla, unless there was a specific attempt to increase their power compared to other weapons. Otherwise axes/PL would always be the better choice in most all circumstances(barring racial preference). Even if the benefit were marginal(and reaching is -not- marginal, by any means), having otherwise equal weapons with some having benefits and others not would mandate a choice.

I like stunning a lot for MF. Even if it's a % chance, I see nothing wrong with that. PL reaching seems to have a % chance to fail when reaching past someone(which is frustrating, but there ya go). Tele escape is random. Heck, damage is random. Much of the time, the stun effect would be a nice random addition that would have little effect, but if it proc'd at the right time would be a life saver.

Blades, mobility is cool, but apparently not a good fit. :/ Riposte style things would be nice. It'd be neat to see bleed do more, have it like a poison effect. Especially if there were more 'ignite blood'(demonspawn) style effects around. Bcuz messy battlefield==cool. :P

Unrelated, since there is interest in reducing the incentive toward hallway fighting, one could change the dodge effect to decay over time-not-moved. And possibly make lateral moves -always- reduce the attack delay on the next weapon attack. You could make the delay happen after the fact, so you move, have full delay, then attack someone who's remained adjacent, and have 1/2 delay after that attack. These 2 effects would increase run and gun incentive. Or you could have the latter only an effect with blades(possibly including SB). These wouldn't be obvious effects and wouldn't have much effect on new players, but would create an interesting set of tactical decision for a player, much more so than 'find the nearest hallway'.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 21:10

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Obviously if a weapon type does not get a combat move it will have better base stats to compensate. Compare a bardiche to an executioner's axe to a triple sword, or a glaive to a battleaxe to great sword/great mace.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 21:10

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

For Staves/Lajatangs, the double-attack seems kind of dull to me; I would much prefer to see them bestow some value of innate SH to represent blocking, increasing in value with Staff and Shield skill.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 21:35

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

crate wrote:Obviously if a weapon type does not get a combat move it will have better base stats to compensate. Compare a bardiche to an executioner's axe to a triple sword, or a glaive to a battleaxe to great sword/great mace.



True, but there is no similarly high lvl 2-h weapon for M&F unless one is an ogre/troll. Frankly, the notion that Lb is the fast and weak weapon and MF is the slow heavy weapon isn't currently true at all(demon whips, triple swords....), in fact the reverse is true, again unless you are an ogre/troll, and changing wpn speed to be more linear with wpn skill wouldn't change that.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 21:43

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

XuaXua: thematically dull or gameplay-wise dull? (Question is not rhetorical.)

I'll generally prefer the thematically more awkward design that (a) shows the extra feature on the screen, not just in messages, and (b) makes the player contemplate a bit more.

For example, cleaving kills dudes you didn't bump into. Visual effect! Instant gratification!!
Also, you don't get it if you dig into a trench. And while fun, the corridor is still the best default for melee figthing. But with cleaving, things change under certain circumstances, that's the new choice.

Giving M&F a bonus against armour (or shields, as has been proposed) will not lead to action on the screen. At best, it leads to a message. Also, it will not make you deviate from the standard battle plan any bit. Will you noddingly approve, "ah, my mace is 10% more effective against this orc warrior", while you battle in the corridor? That's why no weapon move is better than such a dull (gameplay!) one, in my opinion. The same goes for "maces cause bleed, slow, stun". None of these will make you act differently. By contrast, Brogue's maces force you move between whacks -- creating tension in tunnels.

This is also why I think the free attack ideas for swords have potential. In order to get that, you actually have to move. By standing in the corridor and fight one on one, you are forfeiting some of the potential of your weapon.

Oh, and please stop the complaints about balance -- what crate said. It will be hard to reach the sweet spot (I have no idea how much base damage points axe cleaving is worth), but we will hopefully get there over time. Naturally, there will be no buff to swords and maces in 0.12, but a nerf to axes (to compensate for cleaving).

Re random stun: it is easy to come up with effects (and perhaps also with flavourful and fun effects). But with random stun make you assess a tactical situation differently? Stabbing, reaching, cleaving do -- but these are reliable. I would not risk a lot for a potentially stunned monsters. Note that stealthily approaching a monster is risky, but the reward is a one turn kill.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 22:21

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

dpeg wrote:Re random stun: it is easy to come up with effects (and perhaps also with flavourful and fun effects). But with random stun make you assess a tactical situation differently? Stabbing, reaching, cleaving do -- but these are reliable. I would not risk a lot for a potentially stunned monsters. Note that stealthily approaching a monster is risky, but the reward is a one turn kill.


Well, there are a limited number of things that can both do this -and- be fully 'passive' abilities, which is apparently a mandate. It feels to me that this need not be the case, and in fact to get complete use of reaching it is advisable to often e(v)oke it. So I don't see any reason why other effects cannot be e(v)ocable as well, except that it would get in the way of possible evocable egos(are there any other than reach, and that only on whips now?). So a possible evocable stun/stagger effect on MF could be cool. Like: attack has an extra round delay but stuns opponent, or likely stuns opponent, or staggers undead/mindless(for much shorter). This would encourage tactical decisions, especially as multi-rnd action halve EV and SH(IIRC, if not this could). And play into how I currently see MF: which is that, weirdly, they are currently the more defensive option... they more commonly seem to spawn prot egos, especially early, and are some of the best 1H weapons available. And stun/stagger is actually a largely defensive option, since it gives you a couple rnds free and clear, or the ability to book it... but at the cost of that very defensiveness for a round and the cost of a turn of attacking. Wouldn't reduce one's tendency to hallfight, but does everything have to?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 22:56

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

The fact that reaching uses an ability does not make it the role model for weapon moves. Herie is why I am against using abilities for melee attack:
1. It is clumsy. Melee combat is the simplest form of killing dudes, as far as the interface goes. I surely don't want a slightly more elaborate combat system at the expense of an annoying interface. Reaching evoke already falls under annoying, in my opinion.
2. Melee combat effects should not be spells in disguise. Suppose you gave that "evokable stun/stagger effect" to maces -- unless you introduce costs (food, timers etc.), it would be advisable to use it all the time. So you introduce the costs. The system gets more complicated and more spell-like.
3. Note that *buffs* like berserk, might etc. do not apply to a single attack, but to a duration. They are also balanced by drawback (berserk), finite amount (consumables) or piety (god powers). As I see it, complexity for melee combat should come from an interesting interaction between the easy and passive approach to weapons (only need to bump into neighbours) and buffs, wands, spells etc.

Regarding your last question: if an idea makes combat "cooler" but not more interesting, then I wouldn't want it. Stuff like that should be purely cosmetic, like the blood splattering around. Gameplay changes should actually improve the situation.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 22:57

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Problem with M&F is that whips belong to this category but are different in their damage, so find a common effect for all is problematic, equivalent ones perhaps.

Wouldn't be easier to let M&F as vanilla for they are the simplest weapons ?
Last edited by Roderic on Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:02

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

What if on a kill, the battered body of an enemy was slammed into an adjacent enemy and entangled them like a poor man's net? Larger corpses would take longer to throw off. Enemies directly behind the slain enemy are never body-buried, so corridor use is not encouraged. Especially large enemies cause the collaring corpse to explode into chunks as they burst through it.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:14

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

dpeg wrote:Regarding your last question: if an idea makes combat "cooler" but not more interesting, then I wouldn't want it. Stuff like that should be purely cosmetic, like the blood splattering around. Gameplay changes should actually improve the situation.


Well, an evocable stun effect would make things more interesting and would require a choice, but that would require more complexity/active use so... Stun/stagger effects in general would promote tactical use imho, but I can't see how to utilize themthat is not either a) unreliable(and therefor not very tactical) or b) optional(and therefor not straightforward).

Bleed effects though I think could be more than blood splattering around, since they could introduce DoT effects.

Edit: And have a visual effect: a red blood drop icon instead of the green for poison.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:21

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

What if every bludgeoned monster it is moved/needs to move before attacking you again ? Let's say it is a combination between a stunned monster taking breath and a displacement of the monster pushed by the strike.

In case they can't the combat continues as usual.

If you combine this with attackmoving for LB and cleave for axes you have different tactics in open space:
- Cleave attacks several monsters at once when surrounded
- LB allows escape combined with attacks to move among foes when surrounded.
- Maces displaces enemies and let you to clear spaces step by step by pushing when surrounded.

It is like elbowing your way through to advance in a crowded room: you don't chop or cut people but hit them.
Last edited by Roderic on Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:31, edited 1 time in total.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 48

Joined: Thursday, 13th September 2012, 19:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:29

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

galehar wrote:Make weapon speed increases linearly from skill 0 to 27 for all weapons.

Is that part of a plan to make executioner's axes the only sensible weapon choice for melee characters? :mrgreen:

Seriously, with such a change fast, easy to master weapons will get a _huge_ speed penalty until the skill is mastered, while executioner's axes lose practically nothing. It's not necessarily a bad idea to remove magic levels from skills, but it has the potential to dramatically change weapon type balancing.

Read the wiki page linked at the top for more details.

Unless the topic was carefully disguised so that I cannot find it, there is nothing about weapon speed changes on that page.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:33

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Another thought: A passive stun/stagger/impede(whips) effect could be interesting in that it would provide a reason to play MF. Ie: a mace may do a bit less damage than longsword but it also reduces the damage you take from an enemy. Which would make it a good choice for defensive players, hybrids, healers, artificers(which makes sense with rods already being MF), etc, who often need a bit more time in combat for their alternatives to come back online. Maybe makes less sense with GC/GSC, but they seem an exception to the weapon class as is rather than the rule anyway(can only be used by 2 races who have a pretty different playstyle anyway, and honestly would still be very cool for trolls thanks to regen).

Such an effect could simply be a passive slow that lasts a round or 2 each hit(additional doesn't stack, just replaces).

Again doesn't reduce the tendency to hall-fight, but -is- interesting in that it makes weapon choice more interesting. And really there are few things that are going to move melee fighters out of the impulse to hallfight. Not all the weapon effects can be AoE effects.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 08:48

Post Friday, 21st September 2012, 23:40

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Oh, and I think that having a LB have an effect that makes it so if you move, then attack, the attack is followed by a reduced delay this could be interesting without being complicated. It would be mostly invisible unless one watched the turn counter and/or noticed that they got 2 actions in a row frequently. Especially if combined with some notion that EV decays the longer you stand still(an idea I think would really be cool, and make dex fighters more interesting).
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Saturday, 22nd September 2012, 08:43

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

Galefury wrote:I can think of several ways to handle attack delay, each with their own problems.

I think it would be best to just use the highest delay between movement delay and attack delay. You'd just have to be careful of using high delay long blades. And if you do and want to make a quick escape through a crowd, you can always unwield (0.3 aut).

Ossuary wrote:Unless the topic was carefully disguised so that I cannot find it, there is nothing about weapon speed changes on that page.

Oh, sorry about that. I thought the OP linked to this most recent wiki page, but he actually linked a much older one. Anyway, weapon speed discussion should better be discussed in another thread. This one is crazy anyway.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Slime Squisher

Posts: 341

Joined: Wednesday, 14th September 2011, 10:10

Post Saturday, 22nd September 2012, 09:21

Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm

My proposal of M&F against shields would lead eventually to a breaking of the shield (and maybe some sort of "corrosion" effect)
My wins so far - FeBe, KoBe, DsCo, MDFi, DsBe
Next

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.