Cleave

[galehar]

Cleave effect for Axes.

Oups, should have posted that earlier.

<Wenzell> axes[3/3]: In 0.12+, awesomely cleaves around seven spaces on attack, at the expense of nerfed damage (one less base damage for broad axes, battleaxes, and executioner's axes). The cleave attacks do 75% damage, and cleaving in a certain direction is blocked by solid features (but cleaving is done in both directions).

Note that 75% damage isn't the same thing as 75% efficiency because of AC. During the design phase, we hesitated between 50% chance to attack each potential target, or guaranteed attack with reduced damage. I thought it would make sense that it's a bit more effective against weak targets, that's why I chose 75% damage.

[MIC132]

Well. I managed to compile it somehow, and I have one question. Could anyone shortly explain how exactly does cleave work? I get the basic principle, but..

[cerebovssquire]

Well. I managed to compile it somehow, and I have one question. Could anyone shortly explain how exactly does cleave work? I get the basic principle, but..

<Wenzell> axes[3/3]: In 0.12+, awesomely cleaves around seven spaces on attack, at the expense of nerfed damage (one less base damage for broad axes, battleaxes, and executioner's axes). The cleave attacks do 75% damage, and cleaving in a certain direction is blocked by solid features (but cleaving is done in both directions).

[BlackSheep]

So are any ideas being floated for tweaking Cleave?

Some ideas:
reduce damage from 75% to 50%
reduce/eliminate slaying bonus on cleave attacks
make cleaves only have a chance to occur based on Axes skill (I think they always happen now)

[rchandra]

So are any ideas being floated for tweaking Cleave?

Some ideas:
reduce damage from 75% to 50%
reduce/eliminate slaying bonus on cleave attacks
make cleaves only have a chance to occur based on Axes skill (I think they always happen now)

I don't like the second choice as it helps undo the transparency increase of making slaying the same as weapon enchantment. The first or third seem ok. Here's another option: make cleave take longer, and evoke the axe to do it.

[dpeg]

I am not convinced that cleaving is highly overpowered. There's a comment somewhere that the change is a strict nerf because of the damage reduction, as everyone should stay in corridors anyway

Regarding the proposals: Evokable cleaving is exactly what we don't want from our weapon moves. I agree with minmay that the effect should be reliable: if you exchange the safety of your tunnel with the brawl in open terrain, then it's crucial that you can at least damage everyone. (I also thought that full damage to everyone is better, but the current solution makes me think about the attack target at times, so perhaps it's okay.) If a nerf is needed, I'd do it with the base stats of axes but it's premature to say, in my opinion.

[XuaXua]

IMHO, three consecutive targets (The one prior to the square targeted, the target square, and the subsequent square) should be the targets of cleave.

[Bloax]

I think just that would serve as a great octopode attack bonus, dealing perhaps 75% of your normal unarmed damage to the two diagonal targets of your actual attack. (Though it'd be hilarious if it stacked with blade hands.)

As for cleaving in general, it definitely is good. (Which is good!) But for me myself I should probably do a MiDK or something to test it further. (Zigsprint and it's obsidian axe is so silly.)

[jejorda2]

It might be nice if plants were treated as allies and not damaged by cleaving. But it's not so bad how it is. The message spam is probably worse than losing the choke point.

Could these messages:
"You slice the orc warrior!
You slice the orc!
You slice the orc!"
be condensed to:
"You slice the orc warrior and the orcs!"

[neil]

If one wants to make the chosen target matter somewhat more, what about a 25% 50% 75% 100% 75% 50% 25% damage pattern? I'm not convinced it needs to be changed, though.

[Kate]

If one wants to make the chosen target matter somewhat more, what about a 25% 50% 75% 100% 75% 50% 25% damage pattern? I'm not convinced it needs to be changed, though.

I think 5 or 3 target cleave (no damage penalties) is a clearer approach for the same sort of effect, though. Also I agree with "no damage penalty, more base damage reduction" as a good way to balance things if changes turn out to be necessary.

[galehar]

Split the discussion from the 0.12 thread. I hijacked blacksheep's post to get the first one, some general info in the first post.

If it needs nerfing, my preferred options would be 1. making it hit three or five targets instead of seven

My initial proposal was for 5 targets, but it wasn't very well received. Other devs wanted brogue-style cleaving (all adjacent targets). How about hand axe and war axe 3 targets (cleave size 1), broad axe 5 targets (cleave size 2), battleaxe and exec axe 7 targets (cleave size 3). How convenient, cleave size is handedness + 1!
It kinda make sense, I have a hard time imagining someone doing a huge cleave with a hand axe. Of course, gameplay is more important, but it may work anyway. Maybe nerf the big axes a bit more, but the smaller ones would be fine.

Could these messages be condensed

That would be a lot of work to implement.

[crate]

Probably the small axes don't need a cleave nerf anyway though (they were bad to mediocre weapons to begin with, and 75% of a hand/war axe hit just tickles anything with AC so cleave isn't that big of a buff), so changing the cleave mechanics to depend on the size of the axe doesn't do a whole lot except complicate things (and keep smaller-than-battleaxe-axes as bad weapon choices). I would rather keep the mechanic simple and consistent, just let everything cleave the same number of targets.

I haven't played around with cleave so I will withhold opinions on it for now.

[jejorda2]

In console, projectiles get a nifty animation that makes it clear who your attacks are aimed at. Melee hasn't needed this, since it's the monster next to you in the direction you specify.

With the addition of cleave, it's not always clear.

Could an animation be added where each target that is attacked by an axe has its highlight color changed briefly, in a sequence from around the player? I'd suggest the color be grey, since axes are grey.

[dpeg]

##crawl-dev contemplated the following change (championed by MarvinPA, if I'm not mistaken):
Reduce cleave range to 5 targets, but apply full damage.

What I like about the current version (with the 75%) is that you may think about who to hit: with 100% it does not matter. Of course, cleaving only 5 will bring up another choice -- no idea which one is more interesting.

On the other hand, galehar's suggestion (cleave range goes up with axe size) is also very interesting.

I believe that most people agree the mechanic is fun and worth exploring. Since we have the time, it's probably best to wait for quality feedback: players winning their axe guys (or getting quite far with them). It's one thing to kill seven lowly orcs in one clean swipe, but something different to carry the axe through Vaults and Zot.

jejorda: message spam has nothing to do with cleaving, does it? Same issue for area spells.

[danr]

This is kewl.

How are the multiple targets selected? I hope it's automatic, I don't want to have to specify with each cleave attack each square I want the cleave to target.

This is a good change. It doesn't make the hardest stuff in the game any easier, but it makes it feel way more awesome cleaning up the popcorn monsters. Of course, just leaning on Tab does much the same thing, it just takes more game turns. It could also help with those situations when you end up surrounded out in the open.

This is good too because currently there is an imbalance in polearms being the only weapon class with a special effect (IMO whips should also have this).

Actually, it would be interesting if abilities were not tied strictly to weapon class. Maybe Great Swords and bigger could also have cleave. Hand axes maybe wouldn't have cleave (but they can be thrown).

[galehar]

##crawl-dev contemplated the following change (championed by MarvinPA, if I'm not mistaken):
Reduce cleave range to 5 targets, but apply full damage.

Funny, that was my original design

[dpeg]

galehar: Was it?

Your other proposal sounds really cool, though, because there will be a progression throughout the game. Here is more support for it: hand/war/broad axes will often go with shields, and shields do not mesh well with battling it out in the open.

[galehar]

Probably the small axes don't need a cleave nerf anyway though (they were bad to mediocre weapons to begin with, and 75% of a hand/war axe hit just tickles anything with AC so cleave isn't that big of a buff)

I thought it was obvious but heh. Base stats of all axes would need to be adjusted with this proposal. Buff the small ones, nerf the big ones, remove the damage penalty. Cleaving has become the defining feature of the weapon class, the cleaving size is a part of its scaling.

[nicolae]

This is kewl.

How are the multiple targets selected? I hope it's automatic, I don't want to have to specify with each cleave attack each square I want the cleave to target.

It's targets adjacent to you, going clockwise and counterclockwise away from your main target, blocked if there are any walls in the way.

Actually, it would be interesting if abilities were not tied strictly to weapon class. Maybe Great Swords and bigger could also have cleave. Hand axes maybe wouldn't have cleave (but they can be thrown).

Earlier I wondered about giving polearms with axe-like blades at the end (glaives and halberds, I think) the ability to do a small cleave (3 squares total) if used against an adjacent monster, i.e., they get cleave and reaching, but only one takes effect per attack. Then again, do those weapons really need a buff?

[Bloax]

Yeah, okay. Cleaving is the greatest of things. I just tore through a whole bunch of panlords (though with 27 Axes, berserked and a vorpal +7,8 Execaxe. I think that's quite good circumstances.)
A+++ Would definitely cleave again.

I really don't know if it's overpowered though, because even though I could do that, I still got overpowered big time by the overwhelming mass of stuff put against me.
Though of course that might be a very rare occurrence outside of Zigsprint, heheh. But the "bigger axe = bigger cleaving range" sounds kind of fair to me, though cleaving is still kind of powerful.

I can't quite judge whether it needs a nerf though, it's not like I cut through stuff like butter. (I did cut a hole, but I still had to take a real beating.)

[danharaj]

I haven't used an axe in trunk yet. Forgive me if this isn't true already:

Can cleave be made into an evocable like spear reach? Tab can automatically cleave as it automatically reaches.

[Bloax]

The question is why wouldn't you cleave?

[dpeg]

Before this turns into a lengthy subdiscussion: weapon moves like cleave are intended to be passive, almost beneficial, and straightforward to use. Also, they should have an impact on (some) tactical situations.

An evokable is too clumsy. Reaching using this interface is an undesirable necessity, other moves should try to avoid such a slow interface.

Bloax: for almost any effect you could come up with, there will be situations where it's better to not use it. Examples: jellies; a rat you'd like to keep for protection purposes; postponing corpse generation. The original idea was to use the safe-attack command (Ctrl-direction or * direction) to attack just the specified target (and not cleave), but then it was decided that always cleaving would be simpler and more interesting.

[KoboldLord]

Passive, always beneficial, and always straightforward is another way to describe boring. Reaching is interesting because you pick which guy you want to hit, and sometimes there's a trade-off involved that might not necessarily be clear. If the choice is currently unimportant, you have tab to handle the unimportant stuff for you. Cleaving should also be an interesting choice in at least some routine situations, and not just a weapon buff that is always on.

[snow]

Are maces going to be given an ability too? Is stabbing going to be merged with short blades?

Anyway this looks like a strict nerf to axes.

[KoboldLord]

Are maces going to be given an ability too?

Probably, but nobody knows what it will be yet. The two ideas that have some minimal traction are bypassing AC (easy to do, but boring and invisible to the player) and knockback (even more situational than reaching, and some people hate the idea).

Is stabbing going to be merged with short blades?

Probably.

Anyway this looks like a strict nerf to axes.

i hate getting a free haste that stacks with haste too

Pulling back into a corridor is nice, but often this is not the best way to deal with things. Packs of yaktaurs go down very nicely to cleave, for instance, and they tend to continue to be dangerous for a good portion of the game. If you can hit one extra target in half of the fights that matter, that's just slightly less bonus damage output than being Hasted, at least on average. Granted, you're not focus-firing this bonus damage, but on the other hand there's an awful lot of it.

[snow]

Does the enemy you target with your attack take full damage?

I'm curious because I can imagine situations where a black mamba is next to a green rat, plant, or something and because of cleave it takes 5 hits to kill instead of 3.

[nicolae]

Does the enemy you target with your attack take full damage?

Yes, the extra attacks have reduced damage (75%) but the main target takes 100%.

[dpeg]

Passive, always beneficial, and always straightforward is another way to describe boring.

You completely misinterpreted what I wrote. Also, you snipped the next sentence which said that the effects should have an impace on tactical situations. All of what comes now has been said before but you're a blue guy, so we go again.

Combat/weapon moves are supposed to

• be very easy on the interface: in particular, no messing with 'a'bilities -- that's the passive and straightforward to use part. Reaching is not passive (and hence less easy to use) but I couldn't come up with a better interface. Brogue uses double attacks for lined up monsters, but that has drawbacks on its own. (Another reason why I don't want active powers here is that melee combat should not feel like spellcasting in disguise.)
• The effect should be beneficial so that players don't have to worry about whether their weapon is doing good or harm. That's not fully true with cleaving: there can be cases where you don't want to attack all adjacent monsters, but it is close enough.
• The effect should be strong enough to differentiate weapon types. Reaching and cleaving live up to this.
• The effect should create choices. This is clearly the case with cleaving.

I believe you confuse "straightforward interface" with "boring", whereas it's about tactical situations. Only because cleaving is easily carried out (bump into letter), it's not trivial when and how to to do it.

Reaching is interesting because you pick which guy you want to hit, and sometimes there's a trade-off involved that might not necessarily be clear. If the choice is currently unimportant, you have tab to handle the unimportant stuff for you. Cleaving should also be an interesting choice in at least some routine situations, and not just a weapon buff that is always on.

I wonder if you have actually played trunk with an axe, or if you are just grumbling. Your last sentence is ridiculous.

[Roderic]

Cleave sounds axesome, but many people will miss MD more than ever

[galehar]

Cleave sounds axesome, but many people will miss MD more than ever

HO got its Axes apt bumped to +3 in trunk.

[XuaXua]

So... how is the direction of the cleave selected, and what if there are other issues like an inner flame or giant spore target? Are these things resolved in order?

[galehar]

So... how is the direction of the cleave selected

coinflip()

and what if there are other issues like an inner flame or giant spore target? Are these things resolved in order?

There's no resolution. Walls block it, allies are passed through and inner flamed monsters blow up in your face.

[eeviac]

How does this work with TSO? Say you're trying to cleave a big group but a few of them are unaware/distracted by your angel bros.

[palin]

How does this work with TSO? Say you're trying to cleave a big group but a few of them are unaware/distracted by your angel bros.

That's why paladins use swords IMHO

[galehar]

How does this work with TSO? Say you're trying to cleave a big group but a few of them are unaware/distracted by your angel bros.

Haven't tried but there's nothing specifically coded for it. So you'll probably anger your god without getting a warning. Which is fine. Except for the lack of warning of course, this needs to be coded.

[Volteccer_Jack]

My HOHe was getting "are you sure?" messages when pacified monsters were in cleave range, so I assume TSO would be the same.

Do monsters cleave?

[JeffQyzt]

Do monsters cleave?

...you see, when a daddy monster and a mommy monster love each other very much...

[galehar]

Do monsters cleave?

Yes.

[BlackSheep]

I agree, if you can voluntarily avoid harming allies, you would voluntarily avoid offending your deity.

[dassem]

Wow! Thanks for doing this!
I really like it. I am apparently out of practice with melee characters but, still, in the brief moments before splatting I enjoyed this.
It seems to be everything that a good addition should be: It happens transparently and within a few minutes it feels like a natural part of the game.

My thoughts are that since it's most effective when surrounded by lots of enemies, don't nerf the damage too much. I like the idea that this encourages you to fight in the open, which Crawl usually discourages (shall we say).
As for the allies and unaware enemies, my suggestion would be to stop the cleave in that direction once you get to an ally (or to a neutral if your god would get upset). I can imagine a huge axe swing that will take out many opponents; I can imagine being able to truncate it before it reaches a particular person; but I find it harder to picture being able to pick and choose who to hit.

[pratamawirya]

As for the allies and unaware enemies, my suggestion would be to stop the cleave in that direction once you get to an ally (or to a neutral if your god would get upset). I can imagine a huge axe swing that will take out many opponents; I can imagine being able to truncate it before it reaches a particular person; but I find it harder to picture being able to pick and choose who to hit.

Totally makes sense.

[dpeg]

Cleaving is not realistic at all, obviously. If you want a "rationalisation" of the current ally mechanic, here is one: think of the action movies where an actor does something dangerous and all his friends (allies) somehow duck just at the right time.

Gameplay-wise, the question is whether cleaving should be weaker in the presence of allies. I don't really see why (as of yet), so I'd keep the status quo.

[galehar]

My HOHe was getting "are you sure?" messages when pacified monsters were in cleave range, so I assume TSO would be the same.

Well, actually it's really buggy. You are prompted for each problematic cleaved target and can just answer no to avoid attacking it and keep cleaving through.

As dpeg has explained, not attacking allies is more about them getting out of your way rather than you avoiding them. And this is consistent with how polearms reaching through a monster work. So you should get one prompt at the beginning of the cleave if there is at least one problematic target, and if you answer no, it cancel the whole attack. If your god is picky about how you attack monsters, then maybe you shouldn't use an axe. That's a perfectly acceptable drawback and it keeps it simple.

Regarding balance, it's certainly a great buff to the berserk ability. So it might see more use by berserkers which is a good thing IMO. If berserker needs a nerf, I'd rather nerf BiA (increased piety cost?) rather than nerf cleaving.

[Eji1700]

Personal thoughts
1. Cleave needs to almost always happen since fighting multiple monsters outside a corridor is the only time when this is useful and that's easily the most dangerous situation in crawl.

2. If this is too powerful early or something, having it scale with axes and possibly fighting skill would help keep it in check early.