Ogre Healthcare Department

[Curio]

I was wondering about this since I started playing Crawl. Why do Ogres have so slim health? (according to their size)

Let's look at the facts. As of 0.8 with 27 Fighting skill at 27 experience level:
Humans have 270 hp
Trolls have 313 hp
and Ogres - 300 hp

First, let's consider this from outlook of a common sense. Ogres at most as twice as big as a humans in size. Yet, Og surpass Hu in hp only by 11%.
Trolls are different story because everyone imagines them in their own way. Personally i thought that they the same size but more skinny than ogres, so supposed to have a bit less hp. Apparently it's another way around.

Now, let's look at this from balance perspective a bit.
Humans have average aptitudes, can wear all armours. (270 hp)
Trolls have bad aptitudes (dodging), cannot wear most armours, but regenerate very fast (313 hp)
Ogres have bad aptitudes, cannot wear most armours, regenerate normally (300 hp)
(Also they eat more "because of their size" but that size doesn't give any bonuses nor more HP - only malus to stealth)

When I first played Og, I imagined them as a specie that compensates lack of armour with ton of HP. In the same way as troll compensates it with rapid regeneration. But then I disappointed in Og a bit, when realized than he can't take more beating than a spriggan in early-game.

As of now there is no class with properties of a armorless, healthy killing machine, and I think it would be refreshing to play in such a manner.

That's it for now. Now I'll go roll OgGl and try not to die on a first two dungeon levels

[MrMisterMonkey]

If I recall correctly, HP bonus from Fighting skill is silly and the same for everyone (except for special-cased felids) based on XL; ogres only have high racial HP.

[mageykun]

Ignoring fighting then,

Human - 121
Troll - 163
Ogre - 150

The deltas remain the same (within +/-1), but obviously the percent differences are greater as all the numbers are smaller.

Flavor wise, trolls seem much more bestial to me than ogres. Ogres are the slightly civilized, tribe forming younger cousins of the ravaging troll. Kinda makes sense the savages get more health.

[Curio]

Ignoring fighting then,

Human - 121
Troll - 163
Ogre - 150

The deltas remain the same (within +/-1), but obviously the percent differences are greater as all the numbers are smaller.

Flavor wise, trolls seem much more bestial to me than ogres. Ogres are the slightly civilized, tribe forming younger cousins of the ravaging troll. Kinda makes sense the savages get more health.

23% higher than human. Still, not covers lack of EV and armor by any means.
Just ended this game right now.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.8.0-a0-5084-g27636db character file.

  Code:

1090 Renik the Basher (level 8, -4/70 HPs)
             Began as an Ogre Gladiator on Feb 11, 2011.
             Was a Believer of Okawaru.
             Splashed by acid (13 damage)
             ... on Level 8 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:25:49 (8183 turns).

Renik the Basher (Ogre Gladiator)           Turns: 8183, Time: 00:25:49

HP  -4/70        AC  8     Str 24      Exp: 8/1175 (67), need: 1002
MP   7/7         EV 10     Int  7      God: Okawaru [**....]
Gold 268         SH  0     Dex 10      Spells:  0 memorised,  7 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   r - -1,+0 orc hammer
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   b - -1 animal skin
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (shield restricted)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Poison: +       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .   k - +6 ring of protection
Saprovore : + . .   Ctrl.Flight: .   n - ring of poison resistance

@: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, fast metabolism 1, saprovore 1, tough skin 1, Str
+1
a: Heroism, Renounce Religion

You were on level 8 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Okawaru.
Okawaru was most pleased with you.
You were hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels.

You collected 248 gold pieces.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
 a - a +0,+1 dagger
 j - a +0,+0 hand axe
 o - a -1,+1 orcish mace
 r - a -1,+0 orcish hammer (weapon)
Missiles
 d - 3 +0 throwing nets (quivered)
Armour
 b - a -1 animal skin (worn)
 c - a +0 shield
Magical devices
 u - a wand of digging (1)
Comestibles
 f - 3 meat rations
 i - 3 bread rations
Scrolls
 e - 2 scrolls of identify
 h - a scroll of fog
 p - a scroll of fear {unknown}
 q - 3 scrolls of blinking
 t - 3 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
 g - an uncursed ring of life protection {unknown}
 k - a +6 ring of protection (right hand)
 n - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
 x - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation {unknown}
Potions
 l - a potion of healing
 s - a potion of cure mutation
 w - a potion of restore abilities

 You had 67 experience left.

   Skills:
 + Level 5 Fighting
 + Level 8 Maces & Flails
 - Level 2 Throwing
 - Level 3 Dodging
 - Level 2 Stealth
 - Level 1 Shields
 - Level 1 Unarmed Combat

You had 7 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations
Branches:
Dungeon (8/27)             Temple (1/1) D:4         
   Orc: D:6-11        Lair: D:8-13     

                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have a fast metabolism.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You have tough skin (AC +1).
Your muscles are strong (Str +1).

Message History
The megabat hits you but does no damage.
The jelly hits you but does no damage.
You hit the jelly, but do no damage. The megabat hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The megabat closely misses you. The jelly hits you.
You are splashed with acid! The acid burns!
You die...

On a 6-7 XL I ran from jellies. On 8 XL I ran from small orc pack with orc wizard, left with low hp just to be finished off by that damn jelly wandering 1 lvl higher.
With most any other 8 LVL melee fighter this pack of orcs would be smeared over the dungeon floor. But big "brute" ogre ran from it like little sissy girl
Ogres considered challenge species and I can't justify that. Why in the heck, strong and presumably tough race is such a pushover?

[danr]

The other big balance factor is that ogres actually have decent spellcasting aptitudes, which is far more important than magic school aptitudes.

I would play ogres either as some kind of melee-oriented magic user (summoner, necromancer, warper), or as a hunter, because you start with big rocks that you can squish things with at a distance.

Warpers can blink away from trouble, make their thrown weapons more accurate (portal projectile), and retrieve their thrown weapons without waking up more monsters (apportation).

Necromancers can soften things with Pain, a very good L1 spell, and heal themselves while simultaneously dealing damage with vampiric draining, and can also create undead helpers and dispel undead enemies

Summoners can call on friends to help them in battle.

So those are three ways in which the spellcasting aptitude can offset the not-quite-high-enough HP.

[MrMisterMonkey]

challenge species are fun (because they are challenging)

[danr]

I just tried an ogre warper and an ogre necromancer, both died by D:4 despite me playing pretty carefully.

Well, with the warper, I gave up and decided to just fight an iguana to the death after. It was my fifth or sixth fight with the same iguana, and I had a +1 ankus, and I just could not put a dent in it (my ogre was L5). For the last couple of fights I tried hitting it with sandblast with wielded stones, which was one-shotting a lot of other things, but I still could not keep up with the iguana's ability to chomp me in half.

So yeah, that was fun, but I think I'm going to go have more fun with a mountain dwarf which has recently been made "less interesting" by the heavy armour changes.

I think I'd improve ogre's magic school aptitudes, maybe earth magic and hexes / charms, sort of fits the "ogre shaman" idea.

[TGW]

"X is like other races but really weak" isn't as interesting as "X has unique strong and weak points" to me. Ogres are terrible at a lot of things, and that's fine, but they should at least try to be worth it.

There should be a way to make "challenge" games without consigning races to being horrible.

[Curio]

The other big balance factor is that ogres actually have decent spellcasting aptitudes, which is far more important than magic school aptitudes.

I would play ogres either as some kind of melee-oriented magic user (summoner, necromancer, warper), or as a hunter, because you start with big rocks that you can squish things with at a distance.

Warpers can blink away from trouble, make their thrown weapons more accurate (portal projectile), and retrieve their thrown weapons without waking up more monsters (apportation).

Necromancers can soften things with Pain, a very good L1 spell, and heal themselves while simultaneously dealing damage with vampiric draining, and can also create undead helpers and dispel undead enemies

Summoners can call on friends to help them in battle.

So those are three ways in which the spellcasting aptitude can offset the not-quite-high-enough HP.

You see, I'm not imagining Ogres as someone that have to "blink away". When you are an Ogre - everyone around you blinks away from you

My point is not "The Ogre is hard for me. I need more hp for them because I suck"
but
"The Ogre is supposed to live up to their title of a brute at least"
As of now they miserable at melee. Ogre monster on the other hand - bashes you in the ground when you at a lowlevel. In most cases, player blinks away from them

Also, +2 Spellcasting apitude is too much in my opinion, for a specie that have trouble with bladed weapon because of multiple "lethal incidents". But that's another topic.

challenge species are fun (because they are challenging)

Is that you Cap?
It's not about challenge. It's about consistency. Big - > Need more food - > have lots HP
If there needed more challenge - let's nerf every other class. I don't think that would be a great idea.

I agree with minmay.
As I said before - playing a living armorless meatshield might be fun. Your reliance on healing rises - you need more potions/charges to heal yourself fully. BUT, also you have margin of time, when something unexpected hits you like a train. Say, any other specie it would reduced to 10% of health and made you use blink scroll, teleport, valuable wand. In case of an ogre - it could be 50-60% left - and you can risk to dash to a corner or stairs.

EDIT

So yeah, that was fun, but I think I'm going to go have more fun with a mountain dwarf which has recently been made "less interesting" by the heavy armour changes.

Yup, and if you melee-oriented Ogre (like me) you can dish out damage, but don't have chance to because almost anyone kills you before that.
I see you fond of Ogres as a spellcaster mostly. It's odd for me that an Ogre is more succesful caster than a fighter. Just not right

[smock]

I think you could have race-class combinations that are challenges without having entire races or classes be challenges. The former is good design. I'm not so sure the latter is.

Is an ogre better than a human (or race X) in any background or strategy within a background, barring using giant tools?

[dpeg]

There is (and probably always was) a demand for challenge species. When Og and OM were merged (that was a proposal of mine), the idea was to create a challenging species with a unique twist. That twist is the great Spc aptitude counteracted by the abysmal magical aptitudes. I fully accept that this concept is not for everyone, but we got enough positive feedback about post merge Og that I think the species is okay for now.

[szanth]

? What was OM?

[Curio]

There is (and probably always was) a demand for challenge species. When Og and OM were merged (that was a proposal of mine), the idea was to create a challenging species with a unique twist. That twist is the great Spc aptitude counteracted by the abysmal magical aptitudes. I fully accept that this concept is not for everyone, but we got enough positive feedback about post merge Og that I think the species is okay for now.

As melee-oriented Ogre player that's totally irrelevant for me.
Og can cast? Ok. He have smokin +2 aptitude? Unlikely, but ok.

But his uncanny ability to die to a lowly orc, being twice it's size and strength due to low hp is beyond my understanding.

"X is like other races but really weak" isn't as interesting as "X has unique strong and weak points" to me. Ogres are terrible at a lot of things, and that's fine, but they should at least try to be worth it.
There should be a way to make "challenge" games without consigning races to being horrible.

I agree. Challenge for me is to be able diminish drawbacks of a race and fully use it's strong sides. Not just "here. it's sucks at everything except spellcasting. try to survive"
If someone needs challenge race - let's create a, say, Land Squid! Slow, vulnerable to most elements, needs 150% xp, quick metabolism, carnivore, can't wear anything! Here. Try survivng that

I think you could have race-class combinations that are challenges without having entire races or classes be challenges. The former is good design. I'm not so sure the latter is.

Once again, I agree. If someone wants a challenge - let them play a greyed out combination of class/race.
Leave an option of choosing not challenging class to play this specie for those who do not want a challenge but wants to play exactly this race. Seems fair to me.

P.s. It's good that Og and OM was merged

[danr]

OM = Ogre Mage. I forget their aptitudes, but they were better casters compared to regular ogres.

... dang, ninja-ed!

For now the other species are all still challenge species for me, so I think I'll shy away from Ogres until I get my first ascension.

If you want the giant brute, why don't you just go with a troll?

[MrMisterMonkey]

while I agree some extra HP might be okay, I'd accomplish that by scaling HP from fighting with racial HP and rebalancing around that
just as long as they're still a good challenge

[Curio]

If someone needs challenge race - let's create a, say, Land Squid! Slow, vulnerable to most elements, needs 150% xp, quick metabolism, carnivore, can't wear anything! Here. Try survivng that

Oh. I forgot. Also it can' swim. It's a Land Squid after all

while I agree some extra HP might be okay, I'd accomplish that by scaling HP from fighting with racial HP and rebalancing around that
just as long as they're still a good challenge

I think they would be challenge with those aptitudes anyway.

Don't know about scaling, but the point is that their "higher hp" should be noticeable on a 1 XL, not only in a long run by 23%

If you want the giant brute, why don't you just go with a troll?

Two different playstyles.
One is unarmed-oriented - another one maces and flails.
One is useless in ranged - another one at least can throw things.
One is dumb as a stump - another one dumb as a stump with magic skills
etc.
Troll and Ogre really doesn't look alike as much as everybody thinks.

[co]

This thread made me realize that racial hp gain is much less important than fightin aptitude when it comes to mid/late-game max hp.

Right now when you want to chose a race with "much hp" you search out the ones with the best fighting aptitudes, not the best racial hp gain. This is counterintuitive, new players won't get this, when I was a new player I didn't get this(I think it took about year before i learned that).

I think we should tune down the hp gain from fighting and tune upp the racial hp gain (for races that should have much hp, like Ogres), this would make you actually consider the racial hp gain when chosing the race of your new char.

Make the difference in racial hp gain significant. Racial hp gain should be important.

[galehar]

I think we should tune down the hp gain from fighting and tune upp the racial hp gain (for races that should have much hp, like Ogres), this would make you actually consider the racial hp gain when chosing the race of your new char.

I agree. I considered doing this, but it's not as easy as it seems. First, the racial hp gain isn't clearly defined in the source. So we need to first clarify these with a simple formula, and then derive the fighting HP from it. And probably just reduce it too. But given the importance of HP on balance, this has to be done carefully.

[MrMisterMonkey]

curio, trolls can throw large rocks, too, you know, right? weapon choice bias is a pretty superficial differentiation, too, and some people even play giant spiked club trolls and unarmed ogres. oh and trolls are fine at casting, so long as you victory dance a ton (ogres are better at breadth but they're about the same at depth; it's just a little bit more painful with trolls, but everything else is more painful with ogres).

[danr]

Make the difference in racial hp gain significant. Racial hp gain should be important.

I agree.

[Curio]

Make the difference in racial hp gain significant. Racial hp gain should be important.

You just hit the right spot. But this problem is bigger than Ogre's hp problem.
As Galehar mentioned - it's not easy to do, and have great impact on balance, but if done right - Ogres will be the first ones to benefit from this, as they deserve.

curio, trolls can throw large rocks, too, you know, right? weapon choice bias is a pretty superficial differentiation, too, and some people even play giant spiked club trolls and unarmed ogres. oh and trolls are fine at casting, so long as you victory dance a ton (ogres are better at breadth but they're about the same at depth; it's just a little bit more painful with trolls, but everything else is more painful with ogres).

I don't see a reason to torture myself with casting troll and tediously victory dance just because. Similarly, I don't see a reason to use specie potential not fully. For example, if you have +3 maces aptitude and -1 Short blades, why the heck you would choose a dagger? Just to show that it can be done? That bragging is for someone else, but not me

For me, flavor is no less crucial than balance. So this big stereotypical banner in my head flashing "OGRES ARE STRONG AND TOUGH BUT DUMB" just won't stop flashing

[Avarice]

Ogres feel like they play a lot like the other races except much weaker. They really need to something to distinguish them.
While it would do little to make up for the ogre's many weaknesses may I suggest they be capable of using clubs to grind up bones to make bread.

Some other racial ability would be nice to distinguish them. Maybe let them trade some permanent health in exchange for healing similar to the deep dwarf recharging ability. Or give them a short lived bonus upon eating fresh meat that boosts some stats giving them a very good reason to be so ravenous.

[MrMisterMonkey]

ogres don't like eating raw meat; you're thinking of trolls

[jackalKnight]

Ogres pretty much flat out suck at everything. The high hunger makes them iffy spellcasters and the inability to get good armor OR dodge makes them crappy fighters. Thes best compromise I can think of would be giving the current ogre build gourmand, which would still leave them as a "challenge" race, but would at least make them better able to manange Hunger 2. As it is, they have NOTHING going for them!

[MrMisterMonkey]

How does the high hunger make them iffy spellcasters? I'd blame it more on the bad magic schools, but it's still fine and I'd be sad to see them change.

[KoboldLord]

High hunger from standing around is completely dwarfed by the food costs of high-level spells. An ogre spellcaster won't be all that much worse off (hungerwise, anyway) than any other spellcaster until spellcasting skill and intelligence are built up enough to mitigate the character's staple spells.

[Curio]

As always, should I begin a thread - next stop - off-topped in Abyss =)

I was talking only about HP, now it's about making bread out of bones and permahealth trade-offs .
Magic aptitude, hunger etc. etc. fits comparatively nicely in the image of an ogre.

[sanka]

Maybe it's just me - but I was more succesful with ogre's than with trolls. Trolls are much stronger in the beginning - till xp level 10, but after that (when both starts to be hard) ogre's are much easier for me. Maybe I do not know how to play trolls after the first part of the game.

But:
- Trolls have -2 fighting vs. Ogre +2 - so I usually have higher Hp with an ogre.
- Ogre have -1 dodge vs trolls -2, and stealth -2 vs. troll -5 especially the latter makes difference
Throwing aptitude is very useful, I almost always use blowguns with an ogre (if I don't play a paladin). If I'm lucky and find a blowgun and a lot of needles I usually reach level 10.

And I have a lot of success using shields in the early game with ogres. Maybe because of the size, but it does not hinder them too much - I was able to cast spells and fight, while have the protection of a shield - it helps them a lot.

In my experience, while Ogres are a little bit challenging, I do not feel them too week. I do not think that HP changes are neccessary. If I want something to change with them, I would wish for more enchant armour scrolls A troll leather armour is very useful, but if you enchant it, than you may will lack the scroll for the dragon hide - always a tough choise for me.

[lucy_ferre]

Ogres pretty much flat out suck at everything. The high hunger makes them iffy spellcasters and the inability to get good armor OR dodge makes them crappy fighters. Thes best compromise I can think of would be giving the current ogre build gourmand, which would still leave them as a "challenge" race, but would at least make them better able to manange Hunger 2. As it is, they have NOTHING going for them!

Nothing going for them? Ogres are decent casters and powerful glass cannon fighters. They have one of the best spellcasting apts in the game and are able to use large shields easily. They can also use the most powerful melee weapons in the game.

[Curio]

They can also use the most powerful melee weapons in the game.

Which is totally irrelevant when most foes can kill you before you can smash them with it.

Anyway, opinions divided, but at least I hope everyone agree on that racial HP must overshadow HP gained from fighting.

[MrMisterMonkey]

overshadow? no.
base hp gain from fighting on racial hp? yes.

[Grimm]

Just had an idea to make ogres a little more interesting: give them special powers over elephants. The description for the ankus says that ogres make good mahouts so why not give them a racial ability to enslave elephants? Or even ride them, though I don't know how that would work.

[MrMisterMonkey]

then they get a wacky Lair and they're no more interesting for the rest of the game
racial elephant enslavement also doesn't sound very elegant to me but whatever

[Grimm]

racial elephant enslavement....dot com

[zasvid]

Ogres in DCSS create a jarring cognitive dissonance. When you meet ogres in the dungeon, they are the biggest, toughest and most dangerous early monsters and you think that playing an ogre will let you tear the early game up and then a kobold kills you.

[Avarice]

Well a big part of the problem is that ogres aptitudes don't give them much flexibility. They're only really good with maces and flails, shields, throwing, and spellcasting without any good spell school aptitudes. Compared to some of the more versatile classes they're far less likely to find good equipment they can actually use. A human will often end up with much more damage output than an ogre simply because they find a nice randart or brand weapon and they can easily train the skills to use whatever they find. An ogre in comparison has to get lucky and find a nice randart or branded mace. Likewise the giant spiked club while very powerful and easy to find can't be used with a shield one of the only easy ways for an ogre to increase it's durability.

[Stormlock]

I think the passive food rate for ogres is a pretty major penalty, both for casting and normal combat, simply because it means they require a ton of food to regenerate hp and mp. Beyond 5-6 spellcasting low level spells cost nothing for food, but if you spam 20 MP away on level 1 and 2 spells, it's just as bad as if you had no spellcasting skill at all on something like an elf by the time you've recovered those MP.

Would it be possible to give them larger stomachs, so to speak? So they can have a higher maximum and satiated food values. That way they still need to eat a ton, but at least it takes them about as long as everyone else to starve to death while recovering between fights.

I think they're currently a challenge to play as anything, and it's a bit silly. If people want a challenge, they can just pick weak combos, like an Ogre Assassin or deep elf berserker. Having ogres be weak all around removes a lot of interesting gameplay possibilities for people who can't already win the game blindfolded. The spellcasting vs spell schools aptitudes makes them very unique and well suited to using a wide variety of low level spells, something I enjoy very much. But they're more of a paper tiger than Spriggans are. Why should they have more trouble with a kobold or a gecko than a halfling or a an elf would in melee?

[vintermann]

ogres don't like eating raw meat; you're thinking of trolls

They used to be able to eat raw meat until they were merged with Ogre Mages.

If they had back the carnivore mutation (maybe in my suggested nerfed form: one levels allows eating chunks until full, two until very full, three until satiated) they would at least be less annoying to play.

[JeffQyzt]

Would it be possible to give them larger stomachs, so to speak? So they can have a higher maximum and satiated food values. That way they still need to eat a ton, but at least it takes them about as long as
everyone else to starve to death while recovering between fights.

I like this - envisioning ogres with massive guts always rumbling; if it didn't have an immediately apparent effect, you could also increase the metabolism rate some more (with corresponding larger increase of food counter limits.) Note that this would have less of an effect in areas where you already don't eat all of the chunks, but more of an effect in areas where chunks are few and far between. It would also have the effect of reducing the relative cost of spellcasting hunger.

I'm not sure about how this would affect external hunger sources (hungry ghosts, etc.)

[smock]

Just had an idea to make ogres a little more interesting: give them special powers over elephants. The description for the ankus says that ogres make good mahouts so why not give them a racial ability to enslave elephants? Or even ride them, though I don't know how that would work.

I'd play an ogre if I could ride around on an elephant.

[ryak]

What about giving them a bonus of a constant amount of hp? like +5 hp from level 1. That way you would feel pretty beefy at the early levels like an ogre, but it doesn't have much effect when (if) you get to 27. Or they could get the bonus at one or more particular levels, building up.

[szanth]

It's these fucking socialists, man, I swear. Gad. Wanna give free healthcare to all the ogres; where does that come from, you tell me! From the dungeon taxpayers, that's who! Goddamned welfare-abusing ogres...

[Grimm]

It's like they think that piles of gold are just lying around on the floor to be picked up by anyone.

[GermanJoey]

Ogres are my favourites precisely because they're such lovable, pathetic dopes; I would be just so despondent if they were to be made "good" by any means.

[JeffQyzt]

I put Stormlock's hunger counter modification proposal on the dev wiki:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:ogre

[Curio]

I put Stormlock's hunger counter modification proposal on the dev wiki:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:ogre

Hah! Just look in there, I quote

Their advantages:
High strength and hit points.

Lies!