An alternative Werewolf proposal

[TwilightPhoenix]

I remember mentioning I'd put together a proposal for werewolves in the Felid thread, but I kind of got sidetracked by other things, such as Skyrim and the tournament. But the other proposal reminded me, so I finished up and here we are. I'm putting it in a separate topic since it's quite different from the other one and I'm asking that it doesn't get merged into the other so there's no confusion over which one is being discussed.

First and foremost, if anything in this proposal makes you think "Hmmm, this sounds a lot like Felids…" well, then you'd be correct in that assertion. This proposal is made with the intent of a species with similar gimmicks to replace Felids (though existing along side them could be possible too), albeit with the removal of the more controversial mechanics such as extra lives. I did a little bit of research into werewolves to get an idea for abilities before putting this together, so it is more than a "Hey, I think this would be cool! Here's some really random aptitudes and mutations that kind of go together!"

…no, that's not directed at the other werewolf proposal, by the way, but rather more at a lot of the species proposals in general I've seen on the Tavern and dev wiki.

Second, while there's lots of ways to become a werewolf, such as being bitten, sleeping in the moonlight during the summer on a certain Friday, drinking rainwater out of a wolf's footprint, or whatnot in lore, I'm going to go with the option of it being a curse. Werewolves are descending into the dungeon in search for the Orb of Zot in hopes they can break the curse. Using the curse avoids the complications of trying to come up with "spread the disease" gimmicks and the fact 99% of the stuff you meet ends up dead at your hands. Also, it's easy to say, from a flavor perspective, that the curse locks them into wereform, which neatly avoids complications arising from having two separate forms. Two forms sounds cool, but could lead either to balance issues and stepping on Vampires and Transmutation's toes (voluntary shifting) or frustrating gameplay (involuntary shifting).


Anyways….

First, werewolves are always in a quadruped form with similar restrictions as Felids (a lot of folklore says they look like large wolves sans tails).

They are a normal-sized species. (Again, larger than normal wolves)

Since they are not tiny, they can wield stuff and awkwardly bash or throw it (can enchant weapons for troves this way, which is the main reasoning behind this). If a dog can carry a baseball bat, surely a werewolf can carry a sword in its teeth. Also, with practice (aka raising Evo), they can even use wands. No weird gimmick with awkwardly evoking wands though, it'll just be reflected in their apts.

Claws and fangs mutations at Rank 2 or 3, or possibly starting at 2 and eventually becoming 3.

Fur mutations like Felids have now, but also the Thick Skin mutation growing similarly, partly to compensate for the lower EV they'd have compared to Felids and complete lack of armor. Alternatively, they could just have their own, unique Fur mutation with better AC. (Werewolves are described as being highly resistant to non-silver-related injuries and I think pretty decent natural AC is a good way to convey this without being unbalanced. Also, no damage shaving)

Possibly Fast movement 1. (Described as being faster and stronger than humans) Alternatively, the movement speed bonus could added into Bloody Frenzy below and, under normal circumstances, they have normal movement speed. Might actually be more interesting that way.

Carnivore 1 or 2 (These are former humans or other races so they can still eat other foods. Wolves and dogs will eat a lot of whatever is fed to them. However, they do prefer meat and werewolves have been described as eating the corpses of the recently deceased)

Vulnerable to silver, even with no mutations. Acquiring more mutations does not increase the damage, however. (Traditional weakness to silver, of course, even though it's more of a modern convention than a folklore one.)

Possible rMut 1. (I'm thinking that since they're cursed into their form, it might be hard to change. But giving them any inherent rMut might step on Halfling's toes and/or be unbalanced)

See or Sense Invisible (Wolves have great hearing and smell. There isn't a "Sense Invisible" mutation in the game presently, but if it were used I would imagine it'd let the player always be aware of the "invisible guy here" marker, perhaps with some inaccuracy)

Blood Frenzy mutation. A new one that sort of acts like a passive Berserk, albeit not nearly as powerful and with different trigger conditions. One thing I noticed when playing a Felid recently was that in melee, they splatter lots of blood and many fleeing foes leave trails of it. Werewolves are also typically described as pretty feral. So, rather than give them Berserkitis or lock them out of spells or some silly thing like that, they get this. When near lots of blood, likely generated from their own melee attacks (or Disintegration and Orb of Destruction), the smell drives them crazy. As long as they stay near blood, the Werewolf will have boosted attack speed, strength, and accuracy at the cost of having a little more trouble at using spells and abilities (not too significant, just enough that a player may choose to train their Spellcasting/schools, Evo, or Invo higher to negate it if they find it a concern). Once they leave the blood, they get the Exhausted status cannot frenzy again until its gone. This probably shouldn't stack with Berserk and maybe Haste or Finesse. The boost to combat abilities should be significant enough to notice, but not enough to match Berserk and Finesse.

Have above average strength and dex (again, faster and stronger than humans), but average or below average intelligence (more for balance reasons than anything else). Note, not good strength (aka Ogres), good dex (aka Spriggan), or bad int (aka Ogre, again), just above/below average. For natural stat growth, either strength or dex gets raised. Int must be chosen by the player.

They can worship any god except Zin, who hates them because they are not in their natural form. (The power of transforming into wild beasts is associated with not only witches, evil sorcerers, and those forming pacts with Satan, but also Christian saints, hence these Werewolves are not inherently good nor evil. Plus we already have four species barred from all the good gods as is and that's quite enough I believe.)


Here's the aptitudes. For non-listed ones, those are N/A since they can't be used. I'm not great at coming up with aptitudes, so if I have them kind of weird, feel free to suggest better ones.


Fighting +1
Unarmed Combat +2
Dodging +1
Stealth +2
Stabbing +1
Shields 0 (TSO and Condensation Shield)
Traps and Doors +1
Spellcasting -1
Conjurations -1
Hexes +3
Charms +1
Summonings 0
Necromancy 0
Translocations +2
Transmutation -2 or -4 (They're cursed, so I think charging their form should be hard. How hard, not sure)
Fire Magic 0
Ice Magic 0
Air Magic 0
Earth Magic 0
Poison Magic +3 (Lycanthropy is often thought of as a disease, and this is where I'm referencing that)
Invocations +1 ("Oh dear <insert god here>, please cure me of my affliction!" Seems reasonable that they'd seek a god's help.)
Evocations -2, -3, or -4 (But unlike Felids, they can use wands)
Experience 120 (No extra lives, so no reason for them to level up as slow as Felids)
HP +1 or +2 (Again, stronger than humans and tend to be resistant to harm)


Okay, so that about covers it. To summarize, they're similar to Felids, met to replace them in that niche. However, they're a bit less railroaded as they're a lot less frail in melee combat and can still use wands. The concept here also heavily draws from werewolf folklore and tradition rather than the "OMG ITS A CAT!" reasoning behind Felids. And they lose the rather controversial extra lives gimmick Felids have. Overall, at least to me and I hope to those reading this, they sound more fun and interesting than the current Felids (I do like Felids, by the way, but they have their issues).

Yes, they still have serious equipment limitations, though slightly better. Yes, that's not everyone's cup a tea I know. You've all been rather vocal about that. But we have twenty-four other species with fewer restrictions, so it's fine if we have one with some severe ones.

[Roderic]

How fast are they ? Felids are because they need to flee often ... werewolves would need it also ?

An additional use to silver and I like really to find finally an utility to the spilled blood. Congrats!

I agree that they seeInv. Hounds do this, and I suppose is from smelling

Evocation of items may come from the fact that werewolves are still able to stand up like apes, so they switch from quadrupedal to bipedal position, despite they are not able to handle weapons properly but just throwing them.

Not sure about its splendid poisoning skill .. but feral mammals tends to spread rabies so it is not bad.

Finally I feel it is worthwhile trying to include werewolves in the stone soup.

[widrox]

The other Werewolf proposition (different topic) is a really sick and not funny joke, but this sounds really good.
As about the lore... Aren't the werewolves high regenerating species? Maybe they should have a little lower HP (in comparison to other species) but regenerate really quickly. They should also be able to eat rotten meat.

Maybe it is better to have average HP. But if not just a little lower because werewolves should not be that week.

Also they could have ability to howl. This would be like normal shout but a little louder. It would attract more beings to it, but also have a chance to cause fear in some animals. Maybe those less intelligent. Alternatively those more intelligent. You know... Less intelligent beings fear more, cause they are , well - less intelligent, but the more intelligent fear more because they are more intelligent, have higher imagination and can foresee consequences. Either way it could cause fear in more intelligent or less. One of those.

[Roderic]

Aren't the werewolves high regenerating species? Maybe they should have a little lower HP (in comparison to other species) but regenerate really quickly. They should also be able to eat rotten meat.

Too much troll-like

I miss the ability to transform -either involuntarily or voluntarily- because a single-form is not common among werewolves, which are shape-shifters in lore. In Slash'em werewolves are cursed with that transformation and they switch from wearing gear to being a beast randomly. Double form sounds fine if only the human one is weaker and it could switch if the werewolf rests too much because the transformation appears under stress...

[palin]

I think werewolves could have damage shaving like deep dwarf and keep standard healing. This mimics "superhuman" regeneration quite well as seen in some literature while differentiating them from trolls.

[Davion Fuxa]

Not in all games are Werewolves shapeshifters, some are just cursed beasts that have just one form. I know for my reference I was sort of basing my Werewolf off of the Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim. There they are Vargs or Humans cursed with Lycanthropy (much like what Twilight is saying) and the only way to save them is to destroy them. Part of my idea for the werewolf was based off of the Werewolves as noted in that game.

I see a lot of synergy with what I was thinking here in any case, such as the idea regarding Mutation Resistance and Transmutations (though to make them different from Halflings I went to the extreme), which is partly why I don't have them 'evolving' there fur or skin like Felids do, poor Evocations but use of Wands,

I was also thinking about making them just hated by Zin so I certainly applaud the effort into just making them unable to worship him. I know for mine I have them not worshiping any Good God or Fedhas but I mostly did that because I felt they would be too unbalanced if they didn't have more weaknesses.

I'll note though that the main problem right now is that this current form of a proposes Werewolf is far too strong. Many people didn't like mine because of those weaknesses, and I'll be the first to admit I put in too many in conjunction to the many good ones I made, but this one has too few I think.

[Bloax]

Nerfing a too powerful thing is much easier than buffing a horrendously underpowering one.

[TwilightPhoenix]

@Roderic: Fast Movement 1 mutation, which I think is the equivalent to having Swiftness up. It's thematic (faster and stronger than humans) but I also think they'll still need it since without shields, armor, the evasiveness of a smaller species, or being able to layer up AC rings like an Octopode, they're still going to get hit pretty hard. Alternatively, they could lose this mutation and get a speed boost when in a blood frenzy, allowing them to rapidly pursue fleeing foes but not escape as easily.

Being able to stand up momentarily is probably better explanation for being able to evoke. Perhaps their forearms didn't transform entirely into paws. However, their thumbs are not nearly as usable as they once were and they have bad enough balance on their hind legs that they can only stand on them momentarily. As a result, they can do simple things like quickly pointing a wand at something, but dueling with a sword or axe is clearly out of the question.

Voluntary shapeshifting stands on Transmutation's toes too much, in my opinion. Involuntarily could cause some nasty situations similar to post-zerk, such as being in a moment where you need the armor and shield of human-form and, surprise, you're now in wereform! That and it could lead to "scumming" of the wrong form by simply hiding in a corner somewhere until you're back in the form you want. And in either case it would mean half the trainable skills would be useless in wereform. Why train Armour and Axes when they're totally useless in wereform?

@widrox: Regenerating depends on the particular culture's lore, but simply being resistant to most forms of harm appeared more frequently mentioned (I admit, I only did light research and could be wrong). That and as Roderic said, running around with claws and regeneration is Troll's schtick. Howling could easily be fit for flavor such as when shouting commands or having shoutitis. Aside from that, it basically sounds like a Scroll of Fear/Cause Fear spell which I'm not sure is interesting enough.

@palin: I considered damage shaving long and hard and then decided against it. While, yes, it would make sense, it's Deep Dwarves entire gimmick. And they pay for it with no regeneration. Yet it's still good enough they're considered to be an easy species to play. Outside of stepping on toes, Werewolves would probably need to take a very significant hit somewhere for it, and they already have a significant enough of one being locked out of equipment.

@Davion: It might sound strong, but remember that being unable to use any weapons or armor is a very serious penalty in itself. Notice that every species without most of their armor slots have something very nice to make up for it (Trolls with Claws 3 and Regen, Draconians with strong scales and breath weapons, Octopodes can wear eight rings, Spriggans are very fast, Centaur and Nagas get barding, etc.) Hence why I don't include many "weaknesses", they already have a big enough of one. That and a weakness to silver already can seriously suck against Yaktaur packs packing silver bolts.

I think it's worth mentioning that, aside from the D&Dism relics from the early days of the game, Crawl tends to draw heavily from history, nature, classical literature, folklore, tradition, and the like while shunning modern or pop culture when searching for inspiration. The Shoals are an excellent example of this (lots of greek and natural "ocean/beach" enemies, no pirates). When those fail, they usually make up their own stuff (like Orb Spiders). While there's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from other games persay, the devs (and a lot of players) strongly prefer otherwise.

[palin]

@palin: I considered damage shaving long and hard and then decided against it. While, yes, it would make sense, it's Deep Dwarves entire gimmick. And they pay for it with no regeneration. Yet it's still good enough they're considered to be an easy species to play. Outside of stepping on toes, Werewolves would probably need to take a very significant hit somewhere for it, and they already have a significant enough of one being locked out of equipment.

I consider it a try to buff them. With so many drawbacks, having a high hp backed up with damage shaving and normal regeneration seems to me just different from deep dwarves. As someone said, it's easier to nerf than to buff after the creation (as it seems many think of the felids). It can even be a level-dependent ability, let's say 13th level to help endgame.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Well, it's only one major drawback and one minor one (you don't run into silver users very often and you only lose one god out of all of them). Outside of that, they look like they'd be pretty darn good. Like, Felids back in their initial trunk release strong, sans having all nine lives out of the gate (which was silly broken, but fun).

That and damage shaving is such a strong ability they would probably have to take a hit elsewhere to compensate. Having pretty decent natural AC works out pretty well for survivability in a lot of situations, just ask Draconians.


Does anyone see any glaring issues in this? If not, I'll submit it to the devwiki.

[Davion Fuxa]

Does anyone see any glaring issues in this?

The only thing I might ask about is how much Mana you think the Werewolf should have in comparison to the average species. Would this Werewolf be a casting species much like Felids were or would it be centred less around that? Other then that it seems like a basic grasp can be given all around for what you are suggesting.

Edit2: In regards to the DevWiki. I made up and added in my design for a Werewolf to the Consolidated Species for viewing since I've mostly fleshed out what I can. Feel free to rename my entry Werewolf 1 or something if you want to add in yours after it.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I added my proposal to the dev wiki here with a couple of minor tweaks. There's three werewolf/lycanthrope proposals on that page now, so it might be worth making their own, dedicated page for them.