Curse/Trap/and possibly Ash reform

[King_jelly]

Right now, the way I see it (and I'm sure a lot of other players see it), traps (sans Zot traps) and curses (aside from the ash minigame) are insignificant and almost completely irrelevant to the player once you reach mid-game.

How many times have you died from a trap aside from your first couple of games as a newbie?

And curses? When has a cruse REALLY been an issue?

I propose we amp it up a bit and make these as dangerous as they should be!

Traps: Firstly I think trap detection is way too easy. At trap skill lvl 3 I'm finding it fairly easy to even detect Zot traps. That needs to really be fixed. If we want to be able to easily detect traps the investment should be a lot higher than just a couple skill levels.

Next, and here's where things get interesting, traps should be more than just physical damage nonsense. Anyone here ever play Shiren The Wanderer? THOSE were REAL traps!!!

Equipment corrosion trap
Food rotting trap
Paralyze trap

Here's a link for more ideas: http://shiren.wetpaint.com/page/Traps

Right now, the traps feel like "Babies First Roguelike: lets hold your hand through everything edition". I have absolutely no fear of traps unless i'm walking around with 5HP. But realistically, I wouldn't really be doing that unless I were running from something - and even then, I still have no fear of running into traps! That needs to change! This is a dungeon that supposed to be filled with terrible things!

Curses: Curses.... curses.... curses.... probably the most irrelevant "negative" thing that can happen to the player. The strange thing is, no one seems to want to do anything to change this.

Here's my proposal which would still leave Ash unchanged (for the most part)

Curses should semi permanently (until a scroll of remove curse is used) reduce weapon attributes by a random number. We can use a five sided die to determine the number and keep it balanced. I think a 10 sided die would be too harsh. Thoughts on that?

>your +0,+0 shortword was cursed
>you feel a negative energy lingering on your cursed -2,-3 shortsword

It would look something like that, I suppose. This would add some actual FEAR and penalty to curses rather than just a small nuisance...

Here's where ash comes into play. Since curse are seen as beneficial to ash, what if curse did the opposite for weapon attributes and instead acts as semi permanent enchantments on the equipment you curse under Ash's influence?

>You curse your +0,+0 shortsword
>Ashenzari appreciates your dedication and unveils the hidden power within the curse
>cursed +3,+2 shortsword

Uncursing it to change equipment will dispel the "enchantment" and revert it back to its +0,+0 state.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks. Hope you guys like this.... I think it's simple enough, adds tons of flavor, and makes the game a bit more dangerous (which I think is greatly needed in some points!)

[nordetsa]

To be honest, all these changes would make game very frustrating to play. So basically curse would not only make you unable to change your weapon/armor (which can be an issue) it essentially corrodes your item? Mummy death curses would act like jellies attacking your item...

Besides, at least till the mid-game traps and curses can significantly hamper your play. Poison trap, net trap, alarm trap will be a huge issue if you step there.

[crate]

Mechanical traps are generally pretty bad (you can actually abuse them against monsters--back when it was possible people would kill TRJ with blade traps!!--and they rarely do anything interesting to players) but I think magical traps are ok. I would like to remove traps skill because training it is a trap in 0.12 and then change how detection works accordingly.

Item destruction traps (gas traps) are already one of the most annoying traps in the game. Teleport and shaft traps are the best (they don't directly attack you or your equipment!!). Let's not add more un-fun traps.

Same thing with curses ... it is true that right now they usually don't mean a lot, but on the other hand they are also not something that is annoying to deal with, and that's good. Your change actually keeps curses doing pretty much nothing outside of Tomb (when did you last run out of remove curse scrolls except under Ash or in Tomb?) but makes them significantly more annoying ... and basically all you do is encourage summon-killing mummies even more than the current system.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Short version...

@Traps: Hell no.

@Curses: Hell no.

@Ash: No.


Long version.

@Traps: Making traps capable of killing a character outright or inflicting permanent damage would be incredibly annoying and frustrating, as well as generally unfun. There's nothing exciting about auto-exploring down a corridor and getting one-shotted by a blade trap. Additionally, all it would do is make people pump T&D so they don't get one-shotted randomly or suffering permanent damage. The end result would be no net gain in improving the game but a huge net gain in annoying players.

@Curses: With the huge abundance of remove curse scrolls in the mid and late game, all this would do is just make the early game harder and be no more annoying in the rest of it. A curse at a bad time can already drastically change how the early game is played: picking up a cursed, non-bladed weapon, for example, can force a player to take larger risks and rush into situations more to avoid starving. By corroding the weapon, already a very unpopular effect, you're just making it more likely that player will die without making the situation any more fun or interesting.

@Ash: Already boosts your skills, so he doesn't need to enchant your gear.

[bricks]

It would be interesting to see Brogue's take on curses applied to Crawl (basically, cursed items do the opposite of whatever their uncursed counterparts perform), but it would seriously hamper Ashenzari worshipers and probably make jewelry ID'ing excessively difficult.

Instead of more traps, I'd like to see fewer "haha you got hurt" traps and more ambushing monsters like the trapdoor spider.

[King_jelly]

So you guys rather keep things safe and boring? I rather it be harsh than boring. If traps and curses aren't going to do anything significant against the player, then just out right remove them. As it stands right now they're a waste of code to be honest.

As for the people saying I want traps to "one shot kill the player". Far from it... read what traps do in Shiren. They're severe at times, but survivable. And more importantly meaningful. Right now, unless it's a Zot trap, I walk over traps like they're nothing. In reality, would you walk over a blade trap as if it were a regular side walk? There's no risk or fear. I'm not saying make every trap a zot trap. But make them meaningful and actually produce some sort of effect.

As for my curse system. It's only temp corrosion. I personally don't see a problem with it... it also adds meaning to a curse other than sticky equipment (which is quite boring and lazy). Make remove curse scrolls less common if you think people would just hold on to them. It would also make equipment a random weapon off the floor a more meaningful decision. All positive design aspects.

Also, ash could do with that little boost and slight change of direction. Right now, ash is just a pet project god for people that want to do endless zig runs (boring and cumbersome).

Honestly, no one seemed to complain about the Mystery Dungeon's idea of traps. All this talk of "too harsh" and "too easy to die" makes me think some of you are fans of Dungeons of Dredmor or some other casual RL. Next thing you know, you guys will start trying to get permadeath or the foodclock removed. Yeesh...

[crate]

Um ... ash definitely does not need to be stronger, he's already quite strong and requires zero xp investment.

[nordetsa]

As Twilightphoneix said, this will just hamper early game. So if curse's 'corrosion effect' is temporary, I would rather just wait it to wear it off, especially in the early game because at that stage cursed -2 robe is really a big deal. In the mid-game I would simply use my remove curse scroll, and that's what exactly you said about curse 'doing nothing in the game.'

For traps, you have to invest some skill to detect them in the first place. A character can walk right through blade trap safely because he has the relevant skill. Without skill investment blade/spear trap is enough to kill you, especially if you are on low hp.

The curse and traps are 'too harsh' for early-game characters, but they'll quickly fall off once you go in to mid game. Some of your food gets destroyed? No matter, I have 8 bread in my inventory (and 12 more on my lair stash because they're too heavy to carry them around. You detect corrosion trap because of your high trap skill and it did nothing. Curse made your awesome vampiric GSC -2, -3 instead of +5, +6? Just use remove curse scroll. But in early game you can't do that, because low-level character won't have much resources to deal with that. Your corrosion trap idea sounds like putting 2~3 jellies in every dungeon floor because the early game is 'too boring.' That will make game hard, but it's mostly because the difficulty is too high for most characters to take (and jellies you have some method to deal with them, for example use wands, throw stone, use wand of polymorph, or just run away, etc.) But with corrosion traps you have to be lucky not to get hit by them. Why would you put that in the first place?

[ebarrett]

Just go play Shiren to be bullshitted left and right if that's your cup of tea. Your understanding of Crawl is so nonexistent that you think traps are fun and Ash needs a buff - what else there needs to be said?

[inkydood]

Also, ash could do with that little boost and slight change of direction. Right now, ash is just a pet project god for people that want to do endless zig runs (boring and cumbersome).

That's blatantly wrong. Ash is on par with Makhleb for "most generally useful god," and is fairly unobtrusive for the most part. Curses may or may not need examination, but Ash is fine.

Honestly, no one seemed to complain about the Mystery Dungeon's idea of traps. All this talk of "too harsh" and "too easy to die" makes me think some of you are fans of Dungeons of Dredmor or some other casual RL. Next thing you know, you guys will start trying to get permadeath or the foodclock removed. Yeesh...

Nobody complained about a number of annoying Nethack-isms until Stone Soup came around, either. How does "not pointlessly frustrating" suddenly equate to "casual"? If you want straight-up masochism, there's always IVAN. Yes, I realize this is a weak attempt to play off peoples' insecurities ("If you don't agree with me, you're a casual! You're not a casual, are you?") but this isn't /v/. Nobody here cares.

Counter-proposal (because I do often find traps underwhelming): Until disarmed, traps (exemptions for spiders/gas) can no longer be safely stepped over unless levitating. If a trap is on the field, you simply must take it into consideration-- can I survive fleeing back over that blade trap, or do I dig my way out of this corridor?

[Turgon]

Right now, ash is just a pet project god for people that want to do endless zig runs (boring and cumbersome).

Sorry, one question: did you ever win a 15-runer with Ash?

[TwilightPhoenix]

The problem with Remove Curse scrolls being abundant is not their drop rate. Rather, it's the fact that 99.9% of all the gear you find is floor trash. For example, if you're playing heavy armor, once you find Plate Mail the lighter armors that aren't a randart are generally worthless, and even a lot of those randart armors are worthless too. Once you find Plate with a decent brand, every other non-artifact Plate becomes worthless. And so on. Players simply are not picking up and trying out new gear that much once you get beyond the early game. So, even if 80% of all gear drops were cursed and Remove Curse dropped 1/3 as often, you'd still have plenty of Remove Curse scrolls simply because you're not trying out gear much by Lair or so. In other words, it's just making the early game harder and more annoying.


The problem with adding "New, nastier traps!" is that about 90% of the time or so they are not tactically relevant. So you stepped on a Blade Trap and lost 3/4 of your HP? No big deal, just rest and then press "o". If there's something actually threatening that pops up at the same time, you can just walk away and have them suicide into that Blade Trap. If these traps caused permanent damage, it would just make them annoying and slightly relevant. You'd just train T&D sooner to avoid them. And if T&D doesn't detect it and they step on it? It's just being smacked by the RNG, which isn't fun or exciting.

If you want traps that are actually meaningful, look at the ones that work well right now. Shaft traps instantly put a player in a tight spot without directly harming them whatsoever. Teleport traps and alarm traps can both create instant interesting situations as well (though not always). These traps can put a player in an extremely dangerous position, but the important thing to note is that playing well, good decisions, and skillful use of resources can mitigate the damage caused by these traps, rather than a roll of dice. Hence why you'll far more easily hear "I got shafted down into the rune vault in Snake before I was ready. Holy crap it was intense, but I managed to ninja the rune and escape without getting killed, so in retrospect it was pretty awesome" as opposed to "I walked into a freezing cloud trap on L:8. Holy crap it was intense, but I took take a couple of steps to get out of it and then rest back to full health, so in retrospect it was pretty awesome."


Now, keep in mind, we're not wanting to keep things "safe and boring". Rather, we'd prefer the danger and excitement come from stuff that forces us to make tactical decisions, not something that just blasts us because we happened to step on the wrong tile or pick up the wrong item. Facing down a fifteen-headed fire breathing hydra would be much more preferable than any sort of equally dangerous trap or curse.

Also, seriously, Ash is fine and does not need buffing. He's already one of the best general-purpose gods in the game.


Edit: Also, if I remember correctly, mechanical traps were removed in Trunk. Shafts, teleport traps, and a few others are still in. Just to give you an idea where trap-related development is going.

[nicolae]

Facing down a fifteen-headed fire breathing hydra would be much more preferable than any sort of equally dangerous trap or curse.

Hydra-summoning trap

[Bomanz]

What about traps that require a potion or scroll to disarm? Arcane trap can be haywired by tossing in any scroll, and pressure plates can be kept wedged with a potion. It doesn't make a lot of real world sense, but mechanically it would incentivize you to carry around a burner potion/scroll, and in some cases you would have to make a choice whether to suffer the bad timed effects of a trap or sacrifice a potion that you need since you forgot to carry a burner.

[dpeg]

As said, mechanical traps are gone in trunk. That holds at least for random generation; vaults may still use them, if I remember correctly.

The reason has been given correctly in this thread already: it is very hard for a mechanical trap to be interesting. Almost always, you'll stumble into it while exploring -- then rest off, nothing happened. If it actually kills you, it's a very unsatisfying death (I know what I am talking about). The miniscule chance of a trap coming up when it matters, i.e. with monsters around, is not worth keeping them.

The good traps are shafts, teleportation, alarm. I believe that summoning traps would work well. Traps leading to item loss are unpopular (as is item loss in general) but a lot more interesting than mechanical traps, in my opinion. For example, I could imagine having a "discharging trap" that reduces wand charges when stumbled into.

The fate of the T&D skill is unsettled. Personally, I believe that it's not good if a skill is relevant so rarely (compare how often T&D gives in-game feedback compared to other skills) but there are certainly good reasons to keep the skill.

[Psieye]

So you guys rather keep things safe and boring? I rather it be harsh than boring.

But see, your proposals are still boring. Harsh and boring is still just as bad as safe and boring.

If anything, the one thing to take from your OP is that Zot traps do everything you want from traps (aside from changing your position via knockback). Perhaps then, what's sought for are 'lesser Zot traps', sort of like 'inept item mimics' letting earlygame characters meet the mimic without destroying them. Traps that basically do a smaller set of less severe effects that Zot traps can do.

What about traps that require a potion or scroll to disarm? Arcane trap can be haywired by tossing in any scroll, and pressure plates can be kept wedged with a potion. It doesn't make a lot of real world sense, but mechanically it would incentivize you to carry around a burner potion/scroll, and in some cases you would have to make a choice whether to suffer the bad timed effects of a trap or sacrifice a potion that you need since you forgot to carry a burner.

Irrelevant. It would just make "scrolls of random uselessness" NOT useless, i.e. motivate players to carry around pointless consumables.

[ebarrett]

How about a trap that makes the "Philosophy" chapter from the manual appear on the screen for people to read it before they come here to post suggestions that are the exact opposite of what Crawl tries to do

[Lasty]

You jerks don't like my idea for replacing a boring, inconsequential element of the game with a boring, mostly inconsequential but sometimes arbitrarily game-ending, essentially-identical idea? Well, you're lazy. And casual.

FTFY.

[King_jelly]

When did I ever say "buff" mechanical traps or their damage? You guys keep referring to the blade trap when I'm actually talking about traps that do something meaningful and negative to the player aside from damage. I.e; starvation trap (uses the same mechanic as the famine card), corrode equipment, one time immolation trap (could have a lot of tactical use if you're lucky).

My whole argument was the traps that simply do damage are trite and boring! Alarm (although this ones kinda boring too and a summon monster trap would yield a better result), shaft, and teleport I never mentioned as such. We need more of those. Monster summoning would be interesting as well. Zot traps are the most interesting of all. But easily avoided. yawn.

I mean, it seems to me like you guys want to keep making things more and more easy. If that's the case, go play Dungeons of Dredmor or something. Or one of those Pokemon Roguelikes that were popular a couple years ago. Those should satisfy your needs of an easy hold-your-hand RL.

I've been playing Crawl since 0.4, so I really don't know why anyone here is making snide comments about the "philosophy" page and other such things.

How about a trap that makes the "Philosophy" chapter from the manual appear on the screen for people to read it before they come here to post suggestions that are the exact opposite of what Crawl tries to do

So let me get this straight. You're implying Crawl tries to keep arbitrary, useless, and inconsequential things in the game? Because I'm vying to change such things. Yet you're saying it's good game design, right? Please, explain to me how the current trap system/curse system is actually meaningful to the non-newbie player. I'd really love to hear.


As for curses. Some of you are so adamant about keeping them the way they are. Why? The fact that some of you simply nod your head and pretend like curses as is can "be a real problem sometimes" is very concerning - when its obvious that getting cursed is like getting a slap on the wrist. Curses are useless, boring, trite, and more importantly a waste of code as is - unless something is done to change what they actually do besides "oh no! I can't remove my equipment!". If not, then just remove them and do something else with Ash. They're pointless as is.

The only time a curse has bothered me was when a Mummy death curse has turned my pots in pots of decay and that has been hilariously removed! Hahahaha, the one thing that was actually threatening, about killing a mummy was removed. Now I melee mummies all day. Who cares if my +5,+8 Scimitar of Flaming gets cursed! All the better! I don't have to remove it! So hilarious.

By the time you've hit the lair, you've most likely found some equipment that, if you were to be cursed and didn't have a scroll of remove curse on you, it wouldn't be a problem. Threats like curse and traps shouldn't just "go away" and become non-threats after a certain point.

I haven't seen any other idea besides semi-perm corrosion that only goes away with remove curse scroll or enchant weapon scroll. There has to be some sort of penalty for hastily reading your scrolls and finding a scroll of cruse weapon. There has to be some sort of negative factor besides "derp I can't remove my awesome sword for a while" or if you're playing maces "derp I can't butcher until I find the oh-so-rare remove curse scroll! I better hope this scroll of acquirement gives me one!"

[King_jelly]

You jerks don't like my idea for replacing a boring, inconsequential element of the game with a boring, mostly inconsequential but sometimes arbitrarily game-ending, essentially-identical idea? Well, you're lazy. And casual.

FTFY.

Am I on /v/ or something?

If you admit it's boring and inconsequential how about you help come up with ideas to change it? Oh wait - maybe you like boring, inconsequential things.

[Tiber]

An idea I had a while back, and am not sure if I posted it before: enchanter traps.
If a monster steps on it, it gives a random positive status effect, or Inner flame (because it has the same potential for a very bad day). Stronger effects are rarer.
If the player or ally steps on it, it gives a random negative status effect. This checks MR, but power scales with depth and can be difficult to resist.
It also does not activate or reveal itself when stepped on unless both the player and a monster are in line of sight.

The idea here is that straight damage is boring, and this changes the tactical situation and forces the player to adapt.

Alternate proposal: make it a chaos trap, and add things like polymorphing or duplicating monsters. Xom has a small chance to do something good instead if you're worshiping him (one-time effects only though, no good mutations or gifts).

[crate]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5553

Curses topic

[ebarrett]

How about a trap that makes the "Philosophy" chapter from the manual appear on the screen for people to read it before they come here to post suggestions that are the exact opposite of what Crawl tries to do

So let me get this straight. You're implying Crawl tries to keep arbitrary, useless, and inconsequential things in the game?

I'm implying that there is already a tendency to (eventually) change some of the the things you want to change, backed by a reasonable number of players and devs - by possibly removing them or making them less annoying, as opposed making them even more annoying than they currently are.

Now read my signature out loud fifty times and then get out

[King_jelly]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5553

Curses topic

Yeah, seems like people gave up on what would've been a great idea.

Anyway, some of the spell miscast effects could prove to be interesting traps. Obviously not the damage inducing ones, but MP drain or something of the like.

[King_jelly]

How about a trap that makes the "Philosophy" chapter from the manual appear on the screen for people to read it before they come here to post suggestions that are the exact opposite of what Crawl tries to do

So let me get this straight. You're implying Crawl tries to keep arbitrary, useless, and inconsequential things in the game?

I'm implying that there is already a tendency to (eventually) change some of the the things you want to change, backed by a reasonable number of players and devs - by possibly removing them or making them less annoying, as opposed making them even more annoying than they currently are.

Now read my signature out loud fifty times and then get out

So eventually Crawl will end up as a dungeon one floor deep, with the orb of zot waiting for you at the center. One simply has to walk up to it and get out. No monsters, because that's "annoying". Great ideas going around!

Or maybe, we can reduce Dungeon Sprint to be a RNG that simply determines if you won or not after you've selected your race/background combo.

How about you get out.

[crate]

Well the biggest thing I got from the curses topic is that if you want curses to mean something you first have to add a way of actually getting items cursed, since right now in crawl it just plain doesn't happen except when you personally kill an enemy that has basically no risk of actually killing you (so you can easily avoid doing this by, e.g. carrying a lantern of shadows and killing it with the summons). No point in changing how curses work until then, and keeping them around is certainly easier than changing how ash works so that's what happened.

If this bothers you you are free to implement something yourself, and if it's good it is much more likely to get into crawl if all a dev has to do is make sure your patch works instead of having to write all the code.

[King_jelly]

Well the biggest thing I got from the curses topic is that if you want curses to mean something you first have to add a way of actually getting items cursed, since right now in crawl it just plain doesn't happen except when you personally kill an enemy that has basically no risk of actually killing you (so you can easily avoid doing this by, e.g. carrying a lantern of shadows and killing it with the summons). No point in changing how curses work until then, and keeping them around is certainly easier than changing how ash works so that's what happened.

If this bothers you you are free to implement something yourself, and if it's good it is much more likely to get into crawl if all a dev has to do is make sure your patch works instead of having to write all the code.

Well, if they added a simple curse trap (most RL's have them, nothing life changing here) it could work.

[Lasty]

If you admit it's boring and inconsequential how about you help come up with ideas to change it? Oh wait - maybe you like boring, inconsequential things.

There's already a plan to fix it: removing the boring traps completely.

The reason your plan isn't a good one has already been explained: it leaves the boring aspects alone (mostly avoidable, single-shot traps that you can mostly ignore or lure enemies into, but which sometimes ruin your day by doing just enough damage to kill you) and promises to make them much more irritating and punitive. It would change T&D from useless to absolutely mandatory, which is just as bad. I would have just said this up front, except that 1) other people already did, and 2) given your sense of righteousness, you don't merit a real reply.

[ebarrett]

How about you get out.

How about someone lock this thread because it completely lost any purpose it might have had when you started referring to everyone as "you jerks" up there

EDIT: well apparently you didn't and speedreading caused me to make a complete mess of someone else's post. Hopefully we can still find another reason to lock this thread!

[King_jelly]

If you admit it's boring and inconsequential how about you help come up with ideas to change it? Oh wait - maybe you like boring, inconsequential things.

There's already a plan to fix it: removing the boring traps completely.

The reason your plan isn't a good one has already been explained: it leaves the boring aspects alone (mostly avoidable, single-shot traps that you can mostly ignore or lure enemies into, but which sometimes ruin your day by doing just enough damage to kill you) and promises to make them much more irritating and punitive. It would change T&D from useless to absolutely mandatory, which is just as bad. I would have just said this up front, except that 1) other people already did, and 2) given your sense of righteousness, you don't merit a real reply.

Holy reading comprehension! When did I ever say keep dart traps and the like (they've already been removed)? I said add MEANINGFUL traps. I.e: starvation, curse, corrosion. Things that can only affect the player. Sometimes I feel like I'm in Bizzaro World.

[King_jelly]

If you admit it's boring and inconsequential how about you help come up with ideas to change it? Oh wait - maybe you like boring, inconsequential things.

There's already a plan to fix it: removing the boring traps completely.

The reason your plan isn't a good one has already been explained: it leaves the boring aspects alone (mostly avoidable, single-shot traps that you can mostly ignore or lure enemies into, but which sometimes ruin your day by doing just enough damage to kill you) and promises to make them much more irritating and punitive. It would change T&D from useless to absolutely mandatory, which is just as bad. I would have just said this up front, except that 1) other people already did, and 2) given your sense of righteousness, you don't merit a real reply.

Holy reading comprehension! When did I ever say keep dart traps and the like (they've already been removed)? I said add MEANINGFUL traps. I.e: starvation, curse, corrosion. Things that can only affect the player. Sometimes I feel like I'm in Bizzaro World.

How about you get out.

How about someone lock this thread because it completely lost any purpose it might have had when you started referring to everyone as "you jerks" up there

....

when did I ever use the word "jerk"? You're the one being condescending, advising me I should get out because you dont like my idea. Have fun with a one floor dungeon with no monsters, dude.

If you're referring to this:

You jerks don't like my idea for replacing a boring, inconsequential element of the game with a boring, mostly inconsequential but sometimes arbitrarily game-ending, essentially-identical idea? Well, you're lazy. And casual.

FTFY.

That was him editing a quote. You can do that you know.

How about you get out.

Hi, I want crawl to be VERY easy. I'm afraid of trap and monsters. I wish the Orb of Zot were on D1 so I can grab it quickly and leave the scary dungeon

[Kate]

Mechanical traps aren't gone yet but removing them has been planned for a while. Feel free to revive the curses topic for curses discussion instead of making two proposals in one thread. Also feel free to stop making worthless strawman posts.

[King_jelly]

So basically everyone wants crawl reduced to an RNG simulator that tells you if you won the game or not right after you select your species/background?

My proposal fixes traps by making them interesting and meaningful and tactical to the player.
It fixes curses by making them as such as well - meaningful, an actual negative effect, and tactical.

There's a point where this game will become over simplified.... a point where Dungeons of Dredmor (lol) might have more depth. I for one do not welcome that nightmare.

[ebarrett]

That was him editing a quote. You can do that you know.

I'm a huge asshat

[King_jelly]

That was him editing a quote. You can do that you know.

I'm a huge asshat

You seem really upset. Let me recommend some games for you that might be more suited to your taste/skill level: Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Dungeon of Dredmor, Izuna, POWDER, Binding of Isaac.

Have fun.

[ebarrett]

That was him editing a quote. You can do that you know.

I'm a huge asshat

I'm a huge asshat

Yes, you're a huge asshat

[Turgon]

How about someone lock this thread

Yes, please.

After a break of some days there may be a better time for this discussion.

[Grimm]

Locked down. I don't see it getting unlocked, there's nowhere for this to go.

On my read King_jelly is the one at fault here for not taking criticism on board. If you make a game design suggestion, you need thick skin. End of story.

[danr]

I read it differently. I saw King_jelly trying to stay civil when others were getting unnecessarily rough.

He was a relatively new member but I'm guessing he won't be hanging out much more after the reception here. I'm not saying the ideas were any good but I don't think he deserved to be singled out as being at fault for the shit stew this thread became.

I invite anyone to re-read this thread and see if you can pick out exactly where it starts running off the rails. Hint: it's with short, pointed posts whose only purpose is to insult another member.

[Grimm]

All this talk of "too harsh" and "too easy to die" makes me think some of you are fans of Dungeons of Dredmor or some other casual RL. Next thing you know, you guys will start trying to get permadeath or the foodclock removed. Yeesh...

exactly where it starts running off the rails