Curses

[dtsund]

Regarding randarts, I hadn't thought that far ahead. Not sure how they'd work in that system (possibly they could have multiple curses on them, or perhaps they'd just be allowed to be negative).

Regarding gradual uncursing, I think I'd prefer an all-or-nothing system.

[galehar]

One thing that needs to be done in any case is to either nerf ?RC or reduce their frequency. I'm suggesting that we nerf ?RC to make them target 1 item with a chance for one or two additional RC effect, similar to ?ID.

• Ashenzari doesn't need to be special cased anymore. It makes sense for him to have a special effect for curse scroll but not for ?RC. It's a slight nerf to him, but he can take it. Mostly, swapping body armour under cloak and rings under gloves is a bit more expensive.
• It makes the id mini game a bit more involved. Whether it's good or not is subjective. If you find the id game interesting, you'll find it more interesting, if you find it annoying, you'll find it more annoying. As long as the feature is in the game, let's try to improve it.

[Galefury]

If curses become harder to remove, something about mummy Zig floors cursing your entire inventory should also be done. Even if you have enough ?RC it would be incredibly annoying to uncurse all your stuff by targeting it individually. My suggestion (all of these should be implemented IMO, but #1 alone would already help a little):
1) Already cursed items can also be mummy curse targets. The curse does nothing in that case.
2) Equipped items are strongly preferred as curse targets (should be 100% but this is scummable without extra precautions, see #3). It makes the curse more relevant and puts a reasonable limit on the number of items that can be cursed.
3) #2 should work like this to prevent scumming: if the curse targets an equipped item (this could always be the case), a valid equipment slot is chosen. If it has an uncursed item equipped in it, it is cursed. If it is empty, an item of that type from the inventory is cursed if one exists. In any other case nothing happens.

For a fully equipped character this would mean all equipped items could end up cursed, but the more are already cursed, the smaller the chance for another curse becomes. For a character who tried to get around this by unequipping their jewellery or something, curses also get less frequent as worn equipment is cursed, but if the curse for example targets an empty ring slot, one of the unequipped rings is cursed. If an empty ring slot is targeted again, another ring in inventory is cursed. Of course it would still be possible to drop all items corresponding to empty slots, but this is already the case.

[some12fat2move]

Not sure how you fine fellows feel about necroposts, but here's one coming your way:

I thought of 3 ideas for curse reform, not sure if they're good but they might be so I'll share.
Proposal #1 - Remove the curse effect from mummy deaths and replace it with a curse spell that mummies have. Probably shouldn't check MR. Then make more mummies appear in Hell/Pan/Abyss/Crypt/Vaults/dungeon and/or give the curse spell to some other monsters (perhaps an eyeball, "Curse Eye", could have this spell) so that RC scrolls actually become somewhat valuable.
Proposal #2 - Remove scrolls of remove curse entirely so the only way to remove curses is enchantment scrolls. This would probably require some retooling of enchantment scroll drop rates/success rates, especially for enchant armour. Under this system we'd see a lot more use for ID scrolls.
Proposal #3 - Remove curses altogether except as an Ash feature. The only way an item could become cursed/uncursed is through Ash, perhaps through an ability (like the old "Make Ponderous") or perhaps praying on an Ash altar will curse your stuff. Either way, uncursing would be a piety-costing ability, and on the whole Ash wouldn't be changed that much while for non-Ash worshipers curses would be nonexistent.

[nicolae]

Proposal #2 - Remove scrolls of remove curse entirely so the only way to remove curses is enchantment scrolls.

How would you uncurse jewellery?

[some12fat2move]

Proposal #2 - Remove scrolls of remove curse entirely so the only way to remove curses is enchantment scrolls.

How would you uncurse jewellery?

Good question, lol. Forgot about that.

[nicolae]

What would be the effects of breaking up remove curse into uncurse weapon/armour/jewellry, that only work on one item at a time?

[nicolae]

More inventory clutter.

Then we just introduce a scroll of reduce inventory, which

[Davion Fuxa]

In terms of the current system for Curses I think the main problems with them right now are:

They are too easy to remove from your character
Mummy's provide annoying decisions to much
Cursed Bad Equipment tends to lack any real variety

I think the current system should mostly be kept but application, removal, and consequences should get looked into instead. Look into keeping sticky Curses, Mummy Death Curse, self-cursing Randarts, etc; but instead perhaps reduce the occurrence of Mummy's, reduce occurrence and inventory targeting of Remove Curse Scrolls, maybe make Identify only show the items stats and not if its Cursed, and potentially all forms of cursed items you can find on the ground of the Dungeon are either reduced and/or perhaps weighted to occur in the Dungeon's Branches; specifically add in some more Cursed Jewelry - maybe Ring of Vulnerability to Fire, Ring of Corona (You act like you have Corona cast on you), Amulet of Frailty, Amulet of Screaming....

I realize that this comes off as more of a 'cautious' approach, but I don't see as big a problem with the current idea of 'Sticky Curse'; it's just that the choices for the decision making regarding Curses is problematic.

[KoboldLord]

The best way to 'fix' curses is to include more curses that are double-edged. Distortion is a great game feature, and more such curses would be a good change. Sticky curses could even remain, since the major problem with item stickiness is the lack of variety.

Remove negative enchantments and egos except as an artefact property. You can't make a -6 intelligence ring interesting, because there's no counter-argument against removing it and chucking it in the trash, even if it is slightly inconvenient to do so. A +6 intelligence ring that has a curse that gives -3 to strength and dexterity, or a +6 intelligence ring that you can't take off casually, or a +6 intelligence ring that is noisy, or a +6 intelligence ring that occasionally dispels your buffs would all present an interesting choice at least some of the time.

[Davion Fuxa]

You can't make a -6 intelligence ring interesting, because there's no counter-argument against removing it and chucking it in the trash, even if it is slightly inconvenient to do so.

Right now we have a system where it is 'slightly inconvenient' to get cursed items in part because Remove Curse and Identify can help you avoid them - not to mention other consumable items like Enchant Scrolls. If Curses were more unavoidable or permanent then you that -6 intelligence ring becomes more interesting.

IE: Your character picks up an unidentified Helmet and you don't know it's cursed: you have to decision to make on whether you want to risk putting this item on and risk it being cursed and stuck to you. You might use Identify Scrolls on it to determine if it might be beneficial to you or put it on and risk it being cursed and have to either live with it or use up a Remove Curse Scrolls -

But if both Scrolls are rare you might be hesitant to simply use those scrolls - Identify Scrolls might be more beneficial for Unidentified Mace & Flail Weaponry that you might be using, or Clocks and Jewelry (in an effort to avoid the really detrimental effects those have) while if you get a Cursed Helmet it might not be as penalizing to have it on. You might hold off on using the Remove Curse Scroll too until you pick up several more pieces of Cursed Equipment that really starts to hamper your characters abilities - like a Plate Armour that makes you vulnerable to Fire being equipped sometime after. Or since it's a Helmet, you might use Enchant Armor Scrolls on it instead of saving them for other equipment.

A counter-argument is easy to make because consumables as of now turn Curses into 'no-brainer actions'. Change how Consumables work and Curses will start to make choices for such equipment as a -6 intelligence ring just a little bit more important an interesting since 'you might decide it's okay for your Fighter and just leave it there'. Detect Curse Scrolls being removed was a good step toward making Curses more relevant and further changes to Consumables will continue to make Curses more interesting.

[crate]

What you are calling "interesting" I would call "not fun".

[KoboldLord]

Right now we have a system where it is 'slightly inconvenient' to get cursed items in part because Remove Curse and Identify can help you avoid them - not to mention other consumable items like Enchant Scrolls. If Curses were more unavoidable or permanent then you that -6 intelligence ring becomes more interesting.

Making curses specifically more obnoxious is not likely to be an improvement. If a possibly cursed item could be some horrible lethal crap like -6 intelligence, you do not try that lethal crap on without a way to avoid the curse. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Either you wait for identify/remove curse, no matter how rare they might be, or you simply forgo equipment that might be risky.

Nethack gets away with that by including a whole shop mini-game that soft-identifies most of your equipment so you can avoid the really dangerous stuff, and includes loads of ways to remove or avoid cursed stuff, but Crawl doesn't have the same eight interlocking minigames involved and is not about to add them in.

In your helmet example, what would happen is that players would gather up all the possibly-useful possibly-rubbish items and dump them in their stash. When they had a big pile and a couple scrolls of remove curse, they'd try it on starting with the most promising-looking bits, burning off scrolls when their body slots either got choked off too much to continue or when they finished the whole pile. When they used their last scroll, they would leave the rest of the pile for later. All the cursed garbage would go in their trash pile where it belongs, and they would never, ever be exposed to actual gameplay with a cursed object. Fewer remove curse/identify scrolls just mean you make a bigger pile.

In the extreme example where curses were irrevocable and unavoidable, they'd basically be a character tax that randomly applied after you sank a bunch of time into your character. It would almost never be worth trying anything on except out of a non-antique shop, and the best combinations would be those that don't need much equipment because equipment will randomly kill you for no reason. That would be bad for the game.

[Davion Fuxa]

Which is why I suggested weighting the curses so that they are less likely to appear in the main dungeon (to lessen deaths due to say have a cursed Mace in D:1 to D:10) and reducing the chance of cursed equipment all together (you'd likely see Cursed items very rarely). If there is a really low chance that the Helmet is going to be cursed, your likely going to accept that risk - especially if there is say a 33% chance that while it's cursed it might still be useful or a 33% chance that the equipment doesn't have a major impact on your character when it is cursed.

I mostly see a suggested system where players just try on equipment without much worry that it might be cursed, or perhaps begin to avoid picking up items later on because they already have items that will carry them through the game (if you have a superiorly powerful weapon, why bother with anything else?); but when it is cursed it provides interesting gameplay decisions in terms of whether they should use Enchant Scrolls/Remove Curse Scrolls to remove the effect immediately, or to wait with the item much like you would with a bad but not terrible mutation. As for the Ring of -6 Intelligence that you could 'possibly' get, if people are really worried about it then it doesn't have to be in - getting a Cursed Ring of Ice or a Ring that could only be as bad as -1 or -2 Intelligence is still quite bad, albeit toned down.

[BlackSheep]

Mostly I'm just reading that you want it to be harder to get rid of curses, and think that this will make them more interesting. It'd be akin to making food more interesting by reducing the frequency that corpses drop.

Varying the occurance of curses by location would force players to track where they find things, which is pretty tedious.

[KoboldLord]

but when it is cursed it provides interesting gameplay decisions in terms of whether they should use Enchant Scrolls/Remove Curse Scrolls to remove the effect immediately, or to wait with the item much like you would with a bad but not terrible mutation.

Or you could chuck it in the pile and wait until you get a chance to figure out what it is safely. Nobody who wants to win routinely quaffs potions of mutation now; what makes you think we'd try on helms of crapshoot if they were implemented? Mutations, at least, can be imposed by monster action against the player's will, so the subsystem has a function other than being a newbie trap. What good are your helms of crapshoot if nobody ever uses them if they can help it?

Your mental image seems predicated on the notion that if I stumble across a mysterious ring, and I have no way to handle the possibility that it might be dangerous, I will still totally try that thing on no matter what. Well, I'm not going to do that. It would be stupid, and most mediocre or better players are not that stupid. My character can live without that mysterious magic ring for a while. My character might not be able to live with it.

It would not work like mutations or the food clock, for better or worse. You can put off trying stuff on if you need to. Typical characters can't put off using nutrition, and neqoxecs don't usually ask for permission when they want to introduce you to the mutation subsystem.

[crate]

I would rather keep Crawl like Crawl--where you freely try on and use new/unknown items because the game does not punish you heavily for doing so--instead of making Crawl like Nethack, where using unknown items is much worse than not using items at all.

[Turgon]

Btw, talking of other roguelikes: in angband there's a potion of death and I don't tell its features.

In crawl it's useful to identify potions, in angband it's strongly advised...

[nicolae]

The best way to 'fix' curses is to include more curses that are double-edged. Distortion is a great game feature, and more such curses would be a good change. Sticky curses could even remain, since the major problem with item stickiness is the lack of variety.

Remove negative enchantments and egos except as an artefact property. You can't make a -6 intelligence ring interesting, because there's no counter-argument against removing it and chucking it in the trash, even if it is slightly inconvenient to do so. A +6 intelligence ring that has a curse that gives -3 to strength and dexterity, or a +6 intelligence ring that you can't take off casually, or a +6 intelligence ring that is noisy, or a +6 intelligence ring that occasionally dispels your buffs would all present an interesting choice at least some of the time.

I like this idea.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I don't know why, but reading Turgon's post about that potion of death gave me this half-baked idea that might be utterly horrible in every way, shape, and form.

Cursed potions. They provide beneficial effects, perhaps stronger than normal potions, but as all curses in Crawl are sticky curses, they make the player's mouth too sticky to open to drink another potion for awhile. Or something. Actually, probably a different flavor as that one locks them out of potions because making them unable to open their mouth would impose silence on them and prevent eating, which would be way too harsh. But yeah, something like a Cursed Potion of Healing that restores a lot more health than Heal Wounds, but locks you out of using other potions for awhile.

[njvack]

Right now, crawl has a curses system that is not super complex (the number of curse revamp threads is evidence of this) but it is also not particularly broken. Players are more or less free to try on gear without identifying it, and trying on gear is fun. There are places where use-ID-ing is a bad idea (potions, maybe amulets if you're afraid of faith, times when your stats are low) but it's rare.

Proposals that say "curses should make your life terrible" just ultimately mean "you should not try stuff on as much" which is less fun. In roguelikes, there aren't a lot of reward buttons -- really, there's just variants on "killing skeletons" and "getting sweet swords." Putting barriers in the way of trying sweet new swords is something to do very carefully.

Making it so the sword may have tradeoffs (including maybe needing to keep using it for a bit) is better than making it so trying the sword might be game-endingly dangerous. Look at the amount of "OMG distortion" comments, and remember that distortion is actually pretty good for a lot of characters.

[Galefury]

Note: in the part of the game where use-ID is relevant there is never a reason to be afraid of faith. Either you care about piety, in which case you want faith, or you don't, in which case you don't care if part of your piety is gone after unequipping it. The only reason to be afraid of faith is if you are already at max piety and don't need any more, in which case you probably don't need to use-ID.

Another note: the "omg distortion" comments are so frequent because many people often try on weapons they don't want anyway (ohh, a shiny short sword!), and because many people don't realize how good distortion is (ahhhh I'm losing exp, how can I ever cope with that?). Bad players are bad, and as long as there are new players there will be lots of bad players. So lets hope there will always be lots of bad players.

I'm sure most players already try on way more weapons than they should. Making curses a bit harsher might help drive the point home. I'm not saying the consequences should be game-ending, but it would be pretty neat if there actually were consequences.

[varsovie]

I don't know why, but reading Turgon's post about that potion of death gave me this half-baked idea that might be utterly horrible in every way, shape, and form.

Yes it is, more so in Nethack where the amulet of *I kill you* strangulation can appear anywhere and force you to remove the only reliable way to not die.

I have a suggestion to propose to the dreadful judges out there, what if RC? have a 10 to 25% to fail on any items, and when it fails once, it doesn't continue uncursing the other items. This way, one RC? isn't enough to reliably wield ID one item, and it would require more than one RC? to reliably stash then wield ID everything.