Dragon shields

[pubby]

One of the problems with shields is that it is quite hard to find a good one as unlike armour you don't have any guaranteed sources besides uniques.

How about dragons that don't give hides could give "dragon scales" that can be enchanted into shields?

Here's a quick rundown of some stat ideas:

Fire drake ~ rF+ -2EV SV=6 ME=3
Swamp drake ~ rPois -2EV SV=6 ME=3
Death drake ~ rN+ rRot -2EV SV=6 ME=3
Lindwurm ~ -0EV SV=2 ME=1
Shadow dragon ~ rN++ -4EV SV=10 ME=3
Bone dragon ~ 33% rTorment -6EV SV=16 ME=3
Quicksilver dragon ~ rQuicksilver(lol) -1EV SV=8 ME=3
Iron dragon ~ -7EV +3AC SV=20 ME=3
Serpent of Hell ~ 33% rHellfire rX(X corresponds to branch) -6EV SV=16 ME=3
Komodo dragon ~ +5EV +5AC SV=50 ME=50

[forest]

The lesser dragons are fairly common and some of those shields are really way to powerfull (33% Torment/HellFire resist, rN++, rRot). Imo, it will render most of the shields useless, except for randarts and possible reflection.

[Galefury]

If "too few shields" even is a problem, simply upping their spawn rate a bit would fix it. No need to add crazy new shield types.

[yogaFLAME]

There might be a point to be made here, though I think the OP misses it by a bit. It's not that shield scarcity is an issue, it's that shields are just Generally Bad, especially in extended. Adding a guaranteed source of extended-relevant effects in that slot does make some sense. (no comment on the specific items/effects)

[Galefury]

Shields are actually pretty okay for some builds. Playing really well lets you avoid a lot of damage, so the benefit of further reducing damage gets fairly small compared to the benefit of just dealing with threats faster, which is why good players often prefer 2h weapons. But for players who take a lot of damage from blockable sources, shields are quite good. Making it easier to find a shield, especially an ego or artifact shield, would certainly help.

Changing the way the shield penalty works would be good too. That the first thing you should do as a fighter is unequip your shield, no matter whether you want to use it later or not, is pretty terrible. That it is possible to completely remove the shield penalty is also quite silly.

[mikee]

It's not that shield scarcity is an issue, it's that shields are just Generally Bad, especially in extended. Adding a guaranteed source of extended-relevant effects in that slot does make some sense. (no comment on the specific items/effects)

Remember when everyone thought otherwise, and when I pointed this out, they hated me and called me a bad person. You're welcome. =P

[jejorda2]

We've already got stuff from dragons.. why not make giant corpses leave skulls that can be worn as bad shields and enchanted into good shields?

-Hill Giant skull gives blocking almost as good as a medium shield with penalties almost as light as a buckler, with no frills.

-Fire Giant skull penalizes more than medium shield, blocks almost as well as large shield, gives 20% resistance to hellfire.

-Ice Giant skull penalizes more than medium shield, blocks almost as well as large shield, gives 20% chance of no damage from torment.

-The Cyclops skull has a big hole in the middle for the eye, so it doesn't block projectiles at all. It blocks melee four times as well as a large shield, penalizes like a large shield, and grants a sense enemies ability like antennae.

-Titan skulls give rElec, block better than large shields, and penalize almost as much as large shields.

-Ettin skulls take two hands to equip (so you can't use a weapon) and block everything four times as well as large shields while penalizing the same as large shields.

-Stone Giant skulls grant AC, block better than large shields, and penalize almost as much as large shields.

This is a really bad idea, except maybe the two-handed shields.

[Deimos]

I'd support increasing the returns you get from leveling shields or perhaps granting AC instead of SH for shield enchantment.

[pubby]

The lesser dragons are fairly common and some of those shields are really way to powerfull (33% Torment/HellFire resist, rN++, rRot). Imo, it will render most of the shields useless, except for randarts and possible reflection.

Those effects are not at all unbalanced for the XP requirements to remove their penalties. Rather than putting 27 levels into shields just to prevent some hellfire damage you could instead put 27 into crossbows and achieve the same thing.

There might be a point to be made here, though I think the OP misses it by a bit. It's not that shield scarcity is an issue, it's that shields are just Generally Bad, especially in extended. Adding a guaranteed source of extended-relevant effects in that slot does make some sense. (no comment on the specific items/effects)

Yeah, I completely agree, but both are still problems and both need to be addressed.

We've already got stuff from dragons.. why not make giant corpses leave skulls that can be worn as bad shields and enchanted into good shields?

Heh, I can't tell if this silly idea is mocking my silly idea or not but it is true that giants aren't used for anything of this sort. Although they do give out guaranteed ego weapons.

[yogaFLAME]

You're welcome. =P

I hate you and you're a bad person.

[palin]

We need more turtles in DCSS and a way to make shields out of their carapaces.

[XuaXua]

We need more turtles in DCSS and a way to make shields out of their carapaces.

I know I'd totally go after an alligator snapping turtle for the shell, but it'd turn out to be an alligator instead.

[Guppyfry]

I like this idea because I like shields and it also always bothers me that shadow and iron dragons don't have hides. Besides those two though I don't think anything else needs a shield drop. Except for the serpent of hell, because it deserves a trophy for not running from it and that could be a great shield. All of them should be large shields, since that's where shields seem to suffer the most need for a raison d'etre.

[pratamawirya]

Flavor-wise, this is kind of stretching things a bit too far.

[XuaXua]

Spriggan's Shield

Either made by spriggans or made for spriggans or made with spriggans or made for someone named Spriggan, this shield is too large for Spriggans.

[Lasty]

If we just want to make shields a better choice, we should expand the number of things things that shields can block, and perhaps also lower the penalty for additional blocks per turn. Either or both of these bonuses could increase with Shields skill and/or with the size of the shield. It seems reasonable to me both that a large shield would be able to block more types of attacks than a buckler, and also that a skilled shield user would be able to block more types of attacks than an unskilled one.

[Galefury]

I like that the things shields work on are quite limited, and the limited blocks per turn. It sets them apart from SH and AC.

[JeffQyzt]

I can't read a discussion of dragon shields without thinking of this movie:

Spoiler: show

[Sporkman]

I could see a shield being made out of Iron Dragon scales (or maybe even a single scale, depending on how big they are), but it'd probably be best as an unrandart. Not every dragon has to drop something enchantable, people.

That said, shields do feel a little less useful than two-handed weapons at the moment, but it'd be nice to get an impartial analysis at the moment. This, I think, could be solved via tweaking rather than including new kinds of shields.

Also, there probably should be a way to corrosion-proof non-randart shields. This also applies to armor that can't reach the corrosion-protected enchantment level.

[KoboldLord]

Remember when everyone thought otherwise, and when I pointed this out, they hated me and called me a bad person. You're welcome. =P

Fashions change, often without any actual mechanical justification. Last month the big thing was staff minotaurs, for reasons that I still haven't worked out. Eventually popular perception will start hating two-handers again for some reason that won't be any more clear then than it is now, and you'll get the chance to be called a bad person again.

[roctavian]

Spriggan's Shield

Either made by spriggans or made for spriggans or made with spriggans or made for someone named Spriggan, this shield is too large for Spriggans.

Only a baked baker could come up with an idea like this.

[varsovie]

Make big shield be used as surf board, allowing the player to cross deep water with a reduced speed.

Btw: is there any reason why so few monsters use shields?

[Grimm]

Btw: is there any reason why so few monsters use shields?

They know how bad shields are.

[KoboldLord]

Btw: is there any reason why so few monsters use shields?

A quick romp through the Pan holy-themed level will demonstrate why shields are rare. Whatever you may have heard about shields not being so great applies only to you, not to monsters fighting against you. Shields are very good in one-on-one duels, but they are very very bad against multiple opponents even if those opponents are much weaker. Shield-wearing players can get swarmed by multiple monsters, and no matter how many monsters they kill there's always another swarm ready to charge. Shield-wearing monsters will virtually never get swarmed by multiple players at a time, and if they can kill that one player the game is over and the monsters win.

Seriously. The Holy Pan level has loads of shield-wearing paladins, which are like vault guards or orc knights except they have large shields. They don't hit hard enough to be especially dangerous when there are also silver stars and pearl dragons lurking about for them to be compared to, but beating them down is a CHORE because they block really well and the class of attacks that SH works against includes most of the stuff *you* have routine access to. You can also fight angels and daevas, which have the same large shield but can also hit back hard enough to be a threat.

[snow]

I think shields are fine. Most combinations use at least a buckler which helps at least a bit.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

I was initally under the impression that shields were really good all of the time, but now I think that they are only really good in a 3-rune game. Of course that is all I ever got to see.

[njvack]

I was initally under the impression that shields were really good all of the time, but now I think that they are only really good in a 3-rune game. Of course that is all I ever got to see.

Nothing's stopping you from dropping in on Pan, y'know

You'll probably get killed on your first run, but it's totally manageable once you've seen it. The Hells are really, really fun. Both in the "Losing is fun" sense and the "Here are some really challenging situations that don't take too much real-world time" fun.

And anyhow, shields aren't *bad* in Hell, Pan, and Tomb; it's not like standard melee stops being a threat -- though dudes *do* stop shooting bolts at you. It's more that two-handed weapons are generally enough better that they make more sense -- and by the post-endgame, you both have probably found a good two-hander and have the experience to use it effectively.