Revamped God of the Wilds proposal

[TwilightPhoenix]

As per suggestion by dpeg, rather than clutter an old topic with revisions upon revisions and making most of the comments obsolete, I'm starting a new topic to discuss the proposal of Rrragathor, god of the wilds. I've trimmed it down a great down, removed any mentioning of allies or a "pack", and also removed the concept of Totemizing (it was cool, but difficult to come up with unique totems that were also balanced). I also removed the effect of equipment usage on piety, locking stuff out if you fill certain slots is enough. As such, Rrragathor feels far more streamlined and, hopefully, this will make it much more appealing to be added to the game. Heck, if I could code, I'd make a patch myself.


Wiki page here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... asts_god&s[]=rrragathor, which has not been updated yet and contains the old version. I'll update it after I get some feedback on the revamp.

===== Rrragathor, god of the Wilds (Overview) =====

A god of the Wilds, Predators, and the Hunt. Rrragathor is a god who is primarily themed around animalistic aspects and druidic aspects, with a bit of a stronger leaning towards the former, the result of me combining two separate ideas that never saw the light of day for an animal god and a druid god. While just about any playstyle can take advantage of this god, it favors unarmed combat and, coincidentally, Felids. However, there is nothing to stop a player from using weapons and armor if they so choose. They'll just have a few less abilities and slower piety gain.

I'd like to give thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the forums, as that helped refined this idea quite a bit.

===== Basic Information =====

Rrragathor is the god of the Wilds. It is a nature god, like Fedhas, though goes in a much different direction. Rrragathor watches over the wild, untamed, and savage predators of the world and is interested in keeping the lands pure for them. Everyone else is either prey or a defiler. Followers are encouraged to strip themselves of their civilized tools and hunt with their own natural might.

He is a Temple god. He could also have a high chance for an altar in the Lair with the greatest chance on Lair 8. Or Lair 7 if it'd possibly interfere with the Lair 8 vaults. Also more likely to appear in Swamp and possibly Spider (for the non-Spiders should we get that Spider God), though not as likely as in Lair. Can also appear anywhere that other Temple god's altars appear. Mini-vaults would likely contain wild, predatory animals around it appropriate for depth.

The general idea for a player following this god is they will become more animalistic and gain some perks for shunning equipment. This god will favor players pursuing unarmed combat or playing Felids, but most of the benefits can be utilized even if you're using a weapon. Alternatively, players can keep their equipment on and play as more of a wild Druid-type, though this won't be optimal.


====Altar ideas====

* A roaring altar
* a savage altar
* a skin covered altar
* a wild altar
* an animalistic altar

====Rank names (not entirely satisfied here)====

* No Stars - Predatory <species>
* One Star - Hunting <species>
* Two Stars - Stalking <species>
* Three Stars - Animalistic <species>
* Four Stars - Bestial <species>
* Five Stars - Savage <species>
* Six Stars - Primal <species>

====Species restrictions====

Rrragathor will not accept undead, Demonspawn (maybe), Spriggans, Centaurs (both herbivores), and Demigods. Possible special messages for rejecting undead and, if also banned, Demonspawn: "Rrragathor does not tolerate defilers of nature!". For Spriggans and Centaurs: "Rrragathor does not accept prey."


=====Piety=====

====Appreciates====

* When you kill prey (rats, yaks, humanoids, etc.) ("Rrragathor accepts your hunt.")
* When you kill demons, undead, and angelic beings ("Rrragathor appreciates your killing of a defiler of nature." or something to that effect) (1)

(1)Undead as defilers are self-explanatory. Demons and angelic beings less so. But basically, they're removed from the wilds and the food chain, so they interfere with it when they interact with nature. Also, so piety isn't very difficult/impossible to gain in Hell and Pan.


====Deprecates====

* Necromancy
* Eating fruits, vegetables, and bread (Rrragathor does not approve of a prey's diet!)
* Wearing equipment over god given mutations/abilities(1)
* Abandoning it(2)

(1)Rrragathor grants several mutations based on having open equipment slots, such as fur for no body armor. Wearing something in a slot with a god given mutation will eventually cause it to disappear and incur piety loss. This ONLY happens if you wear the piece long enough for him to take away the mutation. If you never took off your robe to begin with, then you won't have to worry.

(2)Rrragathor does not mind if the player switches to Fedhas. However, if they switch to any other god or remain aetheist for so many turns (enough to safely switch to Fedhas, but not long enough to accomplish much godless), Rrragathor will start penance. A player can switch to Fedhas during Rrragathor's penance and he will pause it, but will resume if the player abandons Fedhas or goes under Fedhas' penance for any reason.

The reasoning for this is that both gods are nature gods and are interested in preserving nature. Both of them consider undead to be defilers and harmful to the eco-system. Both watch over a particular part of the natural world as well. This alliance isn't absolutely mandatory for this god and this aspect can be simply tossed out if it is not wanted, but I like it.


=====Given Abilities=====

Note: I've removed Totemizing and the various differences involving that. While it's cool and flavorful, it's hard to balance or come up with a lot of unique differences. Plus Rrragathor also feels more streamlined without it.

Additionally, no more ally support. You want allies, better pick up Summoning.

====Piety: No stars====


* Gives you Carnivore 1 and prevents the Herbivore mutations or removal of Carnivore. If a character has Herbivore, they lose it and gain Carni 1 on joining (rememeber, Spriggans and Centaurs cannot join).

* Also grants Fangs, Foot Claws (similar to Talons and Hooves), and Claws 1, all which grow to rank 3 as piety grows. Requires the helmet, boot, and glove slots to be empty, respectively.


====Piety: One Star====

* Grants protection from sickness and nausea, becoming more effective as piety rises, mainly so the player can eat contaminated chunks better.

* Grants Fur 1 if the body slot is empty. Eventually grows to 3 as piety rises. This fur mutation could, perhaps be stronger than the normal version (3, 6, 9 AC maybe?)

====Piety: Two Stars====

* Roar (Food, MP, Piety): Sort of like a Scroll of Fear. Most effective on prey animals, least effective on predator animals, neutral effectiveness on everything else.


====Piety: Three Stars====

* (Passive) Chance for the player to increase their satiation level with biting attacks, similar to vampires. Only works on living monsters. ...although it could be amusing to pop a flavor message for attacks against undead on occasion, such as "The Orc Zombie tastes terrible!"

* (Passive) Player attacks can trample, but only if they do not have weapons equipped. This includes pounces! May or may not allow for knocking monsters into deep water or lava?

* Pounce (Food, MP): Player targets a monster and blinks next to it via shortest distance. The player also gets a free attack on the monster, including a stab if applicable. This is partly for flavor and partly to prevent the player from pouncing pack members and summons to escape a situation (they'd get piety loss), as this is supposed to be an offensive ability. The player cannot leap over monsters and other obstacles that cannot be walked through, excluding deep water and lava. If it's too strong to do at LOS range, shorten the range to only a few squares. Maybe increase it as piety grows? Another suggested alternative is for a "Pounce" timeout to prevent repeated pouncings. A minimal range (can't pounce something next to you or one square away) could also be implemented.


====Piety: Four Stars====

* (Passive) Rrragathor protects the player from the elements. rFire and rCold for sure, maybe a few others with rAcid coming to mind to help make up for the lack of damage reduction provided by armor. Granted only if the player wears no armor.


====Piety: Five Stars====

* Bestial Fury (Food, MP, Piety): With the wild power of Rrragathor flowing through the player's veins, they tap into their animalistic side fully and unchain the beast within, literally becoming a supreme predator of the dungeons. The player turns into a massive, sabre-toothed tiger. This form has high damage biting and scratching attacks, Fast Movement 1 (or 2 if Fast Movement 1 suggested below is granted somewhere), boosted damage for Pouncing, can See Invisible (again, if not granted elsewhere), increased attack speed, boosted HP, slightly boosted AC, and greatly increased EV. The sabre-toothed tiger also gains the "Leap" ability, similar to Jumping Spiders. This ability is only usable if the player wears no armor whatsoever and has the same item limitations as Felids.

Another idea for the form is a Velociraptor with the same powers.


====Other possible abilities====

I'm not sure if these should be included at all, but still listed here as they could be handy.

* Fast Movement 1
* See Invisible
* Carnivore 2 and 3
* Supports the wearing of hides (and maybe hide armors too)
* Gifts skins and hides. Perhaps a one time, guaranteed randart gift on the altar at high piety?

=====Punishments=====

I know god wrath's are changing, so this may or may not fit with the new direction since I don't entirely know what that direction is.

* Instant: All god given mutations are lost and any predator allies you have turn against you.
* Summons wild predators to fight you, up to and including Dragons and possibly a "super beast", which would be the Bestial Fury form.
* Rots your vegetables.
* Gives you the "Armor fits poorly" mutation, or makes it worse.
* Takes away mutations Rrragathor normally grants.
* Howls at your location (attracts all predators and wakes up other monsters).


=====Notes=====

* Mutations are used as that system is already in place and working for giving the player claws, talons, etc. Workable alternatives would, of course, be welcome, but I'm not sure making up a new system to achieve the exact same effects is worthwhile.

[varsovie]

I haven't followed the old discussion, but I will try to bring my points, sorry if they have been discussed already.

The carnivore 1 mutation should be temporary (removed when abandoning the god) and not suppressing the herbi, or comes way latter, ** or ***. Otherwise it can be used only to get ride of herbi.

The god seems really good for ogre, felid and octopode, somewhat good for troll, and minotaur. I can't see how being naked, without resistances can be useful on any other race. Even if the guaranteed speed bonus is really good.

Pounce IS a controlled blink, making you exhausted after would be mandatory.

Bestial fury seems to be hast + berserk + mega blink without any drawback and no scaling whatsoever. I suggest instead put pounce at ***** and for *** an ability that can enslave any non-intelligent monster, making it a permanent pet for you (max of one pet).

[pubby]

I really like this proposal but I don't think it's fully revised yet. The following is my thoughts.

Rrragathor grants several mutations based on having open equipment slots, such as fur for no body armor

Try to come up with mutations that cannot be easily compared with equivalent armour, otherwise the decisions won't be interesting. For instance, +Stealth, rElec, rAcid, and Sense Surrounding are better effects than AC or rC as they are rare to find on armour.

I'm thinking certain mutations should be based off of more than 1 armour slot. For instance:
- No boots, body armour, or barding - fast movement speed
- No helmet, body armour - sense surroundings
- No gloves, body armour - rElec
- No armour at all - camoflage

(Passive) Rrragathor protects the player from the elements. rFire and rCold for sure, maybe a few others with rAcid coming to mind to help make up for the lack of damage reduction provided by armor. Granted only if the player wears no armor.

Fur already grants rC and rAcid. I don't think rF is necessary.

Wearing something in a slot with a god given mutation will eventually cause it to disappear and incur piety loss. This ONLY happens if you wear the piece long enough for him to take away the mutation.

I would prefer no piety loss and no disappear, instead only having suppression

Grants protection from sickness and nausea, becoming more effective as piety rises, mainly so the player can eat contaminated chunks better.

Why not saprovore? Beasts should still get sick from komodo dragons.

Roar (Food, MP, Piety):

It would be better to base this off of the estimated difficulty because in Crawl you eat whatever you can kill. Extremely difficult would be hard to scare, extremely easy would always work. Prey animals tend to be easy anyways.

(Passive) Player attacks can trample

I recall when trampling was brought up as a weapon brand the argument against it is that it would be annoying if you couldn't control it. Also, roar has a similar effect if you want to move enemies. I don't think this ability is good.

Pounce (Food, MP):

Scorpion teleport is the same thing and it was rejected partially because you can just keep a slug at your edge of LOS and pounce to it to escape. I like the idea but it seems unbalanced in its current form. Maybe only allow it on enemies you can stab.

Bestial Fury (Food, MP, Piety)

I feel like this overshadows the other beast mutations and would only be about as fun as berserking. How about an ability which instantly removes all armour you're wearing? Sort of an incredible hulk effect.

I don't see any abilities related to a strong sense of smell so you could try looking into that.

---

Heck, if I could code, I'd make a patch myself.

Isn't this a good opportunity to learn? Ideas are worthless on paper - if you really want to see this in the game then write up a patch yourself! Don't call yourself dedicated if you won't follow through

[Lasty]

"Top of the Food Chain" feels very odd. How about "Primal" instead?

+1 for pounce only targeting confused/paralyzed/sleeping/etc creatures.

Since this god likes hunting and stalking, maybe the 6-star ability should be something to conceal you from your prey. For example, it could make every monster forget about you instantly. They'd still be able to see you, so if you use it while in plain view, it might not help much, but you could run around a corner, pop it, and then set yourself up to pounce and/or stab when you're ready.

[dpeg]

Pushing into water/lava is awesome. Since this is otherwise impossible, the god would have to push along with it (piety cost).

[TwilightPhoenix]

Quote limit exceeded! Woot!

<feedback>

Carni already gets removed when leaving the god (along with fur, claws, fangs, etc.) Also, as far as I'm concerned, removing Herbi easily isn't a bad thing. A,s unless you get Herb 3, you're probably better off dealing with it since you'd lose all of your current piety with your god, suffer its wrath and, if you only join Rrrag for Herbi removal and then leave instantly, you also get his wrath too. Just for getting rid of a single mutation. Zin and Jiyva are far, far superior at the whole mutation removal thing and getting the piety for that doesn't take long at all by about 1/3 into a 3-rune game.

Rrrag grants resistances and you still have jewelry. You also can still wear whatever if you so wish, you just don't get the corresponding abilities if you choose to do so. And if he helps some species more than others, that's fine. The same applies to most every other god. Also, there's no speed bonus, it's just a suggested possibility. I personally hesitate to add perma-Swiftness since that could be a little too strong.

Having a cooldown on Pounce is fine, maybe necessary even, and probably a minimum range too. But it doesn't go through monsters, unlike any Blink. So, you can't leap over an Orc to get at that Orc Priest if you don't have a clear path.

Bestial Fury is more like a transmutation form, except stronger (this is a capstone god ability after all). I'm thinking you could keep using the ability to extend the duration if you choose to do so, but I also imagine the piety cost for each use would be quite high, so you couldn't stay in beast mode forever. You also can only interact with items as a Felid would do (so no wands, for example) and can't be wearing any armor to activate Bestial Fury, both of which are pretty significant drawbacks if you ask me (unless you're already a Felid, but then you have excessively low base HP to compensate).

The piety levels for some abilities can, of course, be shuffled around.

Allies are already a little overdone with gods and perma-allies are Yred's and Beogh's gimmick. I'd rather not add some here, especially since I just removed Rrrag's ally gimmicks.

Feedback

Have you ever tried running around the dungeon naked as a species without any ACmor-giving mutations? Trust me, it sucks. Just play a melee Octopode and you'll see what I mean. Forcing the player to run around with 0 AC (on most species) without rings of protection just seems like it'd be very bad. Fast Movement, again, could be a wee bit too strong to hand out so easily and "sense surroundings" was considered to be a rather boring ability in the older proposals (not to mention that's Ash's territory). Camoflauge would just be a passive stealth boost, wouldn't it? It'd be flavorful, but not terribly exciting nor useful to most characters. I'd rather have a broader appeal than everything about this god ever being unique. rElec could be covered in "Protects from the elements", but since rElec needs only one pip for near immunity, I hesitate to give it out.

Fur does not grant rAcid (just double checked, but was certain before).

If Rrrag doesn't give a piety hit for suppression/removal, then what's to stop the player from carting around armor to swap around as needed when it'd be preferred over the mutations/Bestial Fury when the god does not want the player to wear it to begin with? I imagine there could be a more elegant solution than what I've come up with, but I'm not sure that one's it.

Saprovore could be a possibility, but that would allow the player to eat rotting meat. May or may not be ideal, not sure there.

Prey animals being easy? Have you ever tried hunting Draconians before? They are nasty, vicious blighters, let me tell you. They have a wicked bite with a mouth full of teeth and often can spit nasty, nasty breath at you. But anyway, differentiating Roar more from Scroll of Fear/Cause Fea would be good.

Dragon Form can already trample and, if Rrrag gave it, it'd only be with unarmed attacks. And it'd also not be a mutation, so it'd be one of the things you could swap freely if needed. Plus, as dpeg said, trampling stuff into water/lava would be cool (and no more problematic than confusion drowning).

Pounce, again, could have a cooldown/Exhaustion timer and minimal range. You'd also need a clear shot at your target, so if a Blink Frog decided to cut you off from your Slug, you're not pouncing that Slug until the Blink Frog moves or dies. Allowing only stabbing with it would probably push Rrrag a bit too much towards stealth play, which I'd rather not. Rrrag should let you play either the stalking tiger or the charging rhino (man-eating rhino at any rate), not force to either one.

Bestial Fury is more akin to a form than Berserk, just a good form (it's closer to a Dragon Form rampage). I also don't see what benefit a power that removes your armor would do, especially since the power already requires you to not be wearing any armor.

Smell... I've thought about it and can only come up with Sense Invisible (not sure how to implement for a player) or a reflavored Telepathy, which is Ash's territory.

<more feedback!>

Primal would indeed be better. Exponentially better even. I'll go edit that in now.

While the god isn't stealth focused, such an ability could be neat and useful for everyone as either an ambush or escape tool. I'd say require no monsters to be actively looking at you to use, so either need to be out of their LOS or have them asleep, distracted, confused, or some other such.

<comment on trampling>

Not a bad idea, but when does the player spend piety on it? Every successful trample? Only tramples that insta-gib the opponent?

[dpeg]

<comment on trampling>

Not a bad idea, but when does the player spend piety on it? Every successful trample? Only tramples that insta-gib the opponent?

Only when killing by push. Also no questions asked (no prompt), just push the guy.
I want to avoid players pushing enemies across the whole level, boring themselves.

[pratamawirya]

<comment on trampling>

Not a bad idea, but when does the player spend piety on it? Every successful trample? Only tramples that insta-gib the opponent?

Only when killing by push. Also no questions asked (no prompt), just push the guy.
I want to avoid players pushing enemies across the whole level, boring themselves.

Kind of like MK's fatalities?

[Lasty]

I'm not sure if it's feasible to have the god support both charging rhino and stalking predator gameplay. Even if the bonuses to combat are large enough to allow a brute force approach, the stealth approach will always be the optimal choice, because you keep all of the melee power bonuses that allow for frontal attack survival while also getting to control the situations you end up in and attack helpless foes.

With melee now, the main reason not to go stealth on a melee fighter is only that heavy armor makes it essentially impossible -- skill points aren't a factor, because stealth trains up fast and fighters often have more skill points than they need, since they only really care about 3-4 skills. This god removes that barrier, making stealth the obvious choice.

[TwilightPhoenix]

It's perfectly feasible. Take Oka for example, he supports stealth, but also supports not going stealth. Ash also really helps stabbers, but he's great for pretty much everyone else too.

And it's why I like the "hide behind a corner and vanish" ability you suggested. It's stealth-oriented and would help those characters more, but everyone can use it at least for escapes. Plus it's much cooler than a passive stealth boost or telepathy.

For trampling across a level, people aren't don't do this with Dragon Form. Plus, with Claws 2/3 by that point, I imagine most things would die before they made it across a level. If necessary, could tie the trample chance to the Unarmed to avoid the unlikely scenario of people using low UC characters to easily shove stuff across a level, though just putting a piety cost on it, and perhaps some sort of message so the player knows it costed piety, would probably make that unneeded.

[Lasty]

It's perfectly feasible. Take Oka for example, he supports stealth, but also supports not going stealth. Ash also really helps stabbers, but he's great for pretty much everyone else too.

Yeah, but Ash and Oka both actively support wearing body armor (armor gifts and bound slots, respectively). This god actively opposes wearing body armor, meaning that the one barrier to stealth being good is removed. I imagine anyone wearing light armor with Ash will effectively go stealth, given that they would get a nice skill bonus to it.

[Roderic]

Just tossing up the idea: instead of having another god which likes a lot to kill everything I would like to see the possibility of having a god which likes to carry less items as possible; the god of the wilds maybe would fancy that worshipers become less concerned about civilized tools (not necessarily incompatible with preying, though)