Retooling Okawaru

[seth]

I feel that Okawaru is kind of boring, and for being the god of battle, I would like him to see him actively encouraging melee more. I imagine him as a sort of stalwart of bravery, and as such strongly disapproves of 'panic buttons' -- this includes teleportation, blinking, berserk, and to a lesser extent, potions/wands of heal wounds. Lesser forms of aid, like might and healing are OK.

Teleportation, blinking, and berserk might save your buns in the short term, but it's virtually guaranteed that Okawaru will send a formidable challenge your way shortly after (along with piety loss).

Okawaru's main gimmick is that he encourages fighting multiple enemies at a time. This is the only way to gain piety (no more sacrificing corpses). You can fight in corridors, but then you will get very little benefit from following Okawaru. The more enemies you are fighting at once, the more power Okawaru bestows upon you to deal with the situation. Only formidable foes count (e.g. non-grays)

* -
** - You receive one point skill increase in every combat skill for every non-gray enemy beyond the first that is adjacent to you. Maxes at 6 enemies. (i.e. 5 enemies give you 4 skill points, 6, 7 or 8 enemies give you 5).
*** - You can summon 2 non-gray enemies to battle. However, they tend to be on the weaker side of the spectrum (but not guaranteed!).
**** - Each enemy beyond the second reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 20%, to a maximum of 100% (at the 7th enemy).
***** - You can summon 4 non-gray enemies to battle. They also tend to be on the weaker side of the spectrum.
****** - No additional powers.

Also, Oka doesn't hand out gifts anymore. Thoughts?

[nicolae]

I feel that Okawaru is kind of boring, and for being the god of battle, I would like him to see him actively encouraging melee more. I imagine him as a sort of stalwart of bravery, and as such strongly disapproves of 'panic buttons' -- this includes teleportation, blinking, berserk, and to a lesser extent, potions/wands of heal wounds. Lesser forms of aid, like might and healing are OK.

Teleportation, blinking, and berserk might save your buns in the short term, but it's virtually guaranteed that Okawaru will send a formidable challenge your way shortly after (along with piety loss).

Okawaru's main gimmick is that he encourages fighting multiple enemies at a time. This is the only way to gain piety (no more sacrificing corpses). You can fight in corridors, but then you will get very little benefit from following Okawaru. The more enemies you are fighting at once, the more power Okawaru bestows upon you to deal with the situation. Only formidable foes count (e.g. non-grays)

* -
** - You receive one point skill increase in every combat skill for every non-gray enemy beyond the first that is adjacent to you. Maxes at 6 enemies. (i.e. 5 enemies give you 4 skill points, 6, 7 or 8 enemies give you 5).
*** - You can summon 2 non-gray enemies to battle. However, they tend to be on the weaker side of the spectrum (but not guaranteed!).
**** - Each enemy beyond the second reduces melee and ranged attack speed by 20%, to a maximum of 100% (at the 7th enemy).
***** - You can summon 4 non-gray enemies to battle. They also tend to be on the weaker side of the spectrum.
****** - No additional powers.

Also, Oka doesn't hand out gifts anymore. Thoughts?

No more teleportation, berserking, blinking, heal wounds, gifts, or corridor fighting. In return you get a weaker version of Heroism and enemies fight slower. SIGN ME UP

[Deimos]

Aww cmon, Okawaru being boring gives a measurement other gods can compare their fun against.

[crate]

I think Okawaru's overall feel right now is fine. He is simple and unintrusive and not game-changing; this is ok, he is supposed to be simple. Because of his design he has a pretty broad appeal as well. If you would like a more exciting god, I would suggest you worship a different god, because for very nearly every character who worships Okawaru there are a few other gods who are also very good.

[white_noise]

I don't think that this idea sould be taken as whole, but some parts of it seems very appealing. Major piety losses after tele or blink from battle and little bonuses while fighting multiple opponents can be nice addition to this religion.

Another thing I'd like to say about gods is that they drop their gifts too often and without much reason. I only worship war gods Trog and Okawaru (and Vehumet), and don't know much about the other ones, what gifts or blessings do they bestow upon their followers. But I feel like any gift/blessing need to be deserved by some heroic deed. These deeds can be pretty different from god to god, but basic conceps it that you don't get any guarantied prizes just by pumping your piety level to the max (with the exception of abilities, ofcourse). Or at least you don't get the best ones. You need to go extra mile for these. Also this system can be atatched to current one, and not necessary replace it.
Example with Okawaru is very well fitted for this. The more active enemies you gather around you (in LoS, not exactly near you) and the stronger they are, the more chances you'll get for a godly gift after defeating them and the better this gift will be. But in the same time your chances of death are also rising. And tele/blink from a fight (or plain running out) can dwindle this chances to zero very quickly. Something like this.
Trog can have another requirements. He does not care about heroism but loves bloodshed. He may appreciate long streaks of casualties while berserking. The longer the streak, the better chances for a better gift. But any living foe staying in LoS after you done berserking resets chances to zero right away.
And Vehumet obviously likes when you destroy as many enemies as possible with one cast.

[yogaFLAME]

Trying to incentivize fighting multiple monsters at once is a losing proposition. Fighting one dude at once and maintaining an escape route is always going to be better than whatever you're trying to give the player.

The only thing I'd like to see improved about Oka is some way to smooth out the RNG curve for his gifts. Maybe at full piety a "regift" ability that allows you to reroll a gift.

[eeviac]

I love current Oka. I don't like these suggestions at all.

[galehar]

Okawaru is the god of war, not recklessness. I don't see why he would punish you for using tactics or tactical retreating. Also, since 0.11 he already rewards tough fights. Stronger monsters give more piety and that's often when killing one that you get gifted.

[evilmike]

I think Okawaru's overall feel right now is fine. He is simple and unintrusive and not game-changing; this is ok, he is supposed to be simple. Because of his design he has a pretty broad appeal as well. If you would like a more exciting god, I would suggest you worship a different god, because for very nearly every character who worships Okawaru there are a few other gods who are also very good.

Agreed.

Not all gods have to be complicated, and in fact, I think it's a very good thing for crawl to have some simple gods like Okawaru.

[seth]

For some reason I thought the general consensus was that Okawaru was too dull. If that's not the case, then that's fine.

But I'm also surprised that the fact that Oka is fine as is the focus of the discussion--anyone have things to say about the ideas presented? I find it hard to believe that it's impossible to incentivize fighting out in the open. Chei's restrictions, for example, are extreme, but players make it work. I can think of silly extremes where it would be overpowered... what if surrounding enemies gave exponential instead of linear increases of speed, and damage and resistances and AC? I also don't come from the perspective that the Gods are only there to make it easier for players... I usually choose Xom.

I personally like the idea that when encountering a powerful unique a player might choose to summon more enemies just to ensure they'll be able to it down.

[dpeg]

I agree (with evilmike) that not all gods should be complicated. In fact, I believe there's a "god progression" for players (just as there is a "species progression"): after playing rather straightforward gods like Trog, Okawaru, Sif, Vehumet, you can still explore what Elyvilon, Fedhas, or (probably extreme end) Nemelex have to offer. This does not mean that our currently simple gods are sacrosanct. For example, I believe that changing the gifts (books and weapons/armour) would not make the gods more complicated, but can help with flavour and gameplay (Vehumet's spell gifts would be a good example).

Is Okawaru dull? That's a subjective question, and most developers seem fine with him. I never could get over the fact that the god used to be two potion effects plus acquirement, but thankfully kilobyte fixed the first (and more pressing) issue.

I lobbied for an Okawaru overhaul, but greedily I tried to achieve two major changes (gifts *and* volatile piety), and got none. Lesson learned. By the way, the recentish piety change (galehar mentioned it) also helps Okawaru design-wise.

That leaves us with the acquirements, and here I will be brief (topics in increasing complexity):

• I think it's much better to gift more rarely, but quality.
• Perhaps we can do better than just (improved) acquirements: Okawaru could put down items as now (though of better quality), but they would be temporary. If you don't use them, they'll vanish after a while. If you do use them, then future gifting events would have a high change to increase duration (instead of new gift) and finally make the gift permanent. It wouldn't necessarily play any different than now, but I have a hunch it'd be cooler.
• A pet idea I like on top of that: using something (weapon/armour, mundane/ego/randart/gift) might lead to gifting events improve those items. This should be weighted such that there are good chances to work off negative enchantments. In other words, if you're willing to put up with the -5 plate mail of rElec for a while, then Okawaru might get it to something workable. [Technically, it'd be: a current "gifting event" would first roll for item improvement, then for gift extension; else acquire gift.]

[Eji1700]

I think Okawaru's overall feel right now is fine. He is simple and unintrusive and not game-changing; this is ok, he is supposed to be simple. Because of his design he has a pretty broad appeal as well. If you would like a more exciting god, I would suggest you worship a different god, because for very nearly every character who worships Okawaru there are a few other gods who are also very good.

Agreed.

Not all gods have to be complicated, and in fact, I think it's a very good thing for crawl to have some simple gods like Okawaru.

While i agree with this, would it be possible to have a more complicated melee god?

Oka and Trog are pretty bleh. If you can't just kill it you pop your passives, and in trogs case, if you still can't kill it you swarm it with angry angry beaters.

I can't think of any other god abilities that really reward you for being close to your enemy. Some help you if you are(pain mirror comes to mind) but most god stuff involves summons, spells, or evokes. Having someone be a little more melee focused, and a bit more complex than trog or oka, might be nice.

[dpeg]

Eji1700: Sure, start a new topic with new ideas

Regarding Trog, berserk is a really cool power. Okay, it works so well because berserk itself is such a good thing, but the god really benefits from it.

[seth]

For the record, I am okay with this thread turning into a talk about a more complicated melee god. What drove me to make this post was that the fact that the simplest playstyle seems to have more simple gods.

[dpeg]

seth: That's the natural course of evolution, in my opinion. When Linley had his great idea of how gods could work in Crawl (as far as I know, it's really original), he needed gods. Melee and casting are crucial, so what's better than to kick it off with some appropriate gods?

At this point, we (or some of us) are quite critical about certain gods, and I'd go out of my limb and claim that a proposal like the one for old Okawaru would be trashed if suggested now. But back then, these gods would already enhance Crawl playing styles and work well.

[crate]

Here are some gods who are good for "melee characters" but are more complicated than Okawaru:

Elyvilon, Nemelex, Fedhas, Makhleb, Yredelemnul.

While another god who focuses on hitting enemies with weapons is ok if you make it compelling enough, I would strongly suggest you try out these other gods first so you see what crawl already offers.

[seth]

I don't think anyone is talking about needing another god who is good for "melee characters", more about a potential god whose abilities are focused around a character being involved in melee. Yred's Pain Mirror is the only power of those gods that really has to do with being engages in melee. I suppose Makleb's life on kill is more useful for characters who often engage in melee as well. But I think for the most part the gods you suggest are actually the opposite of what's being talked about; they are gods that provide almost explicitly non melee powers and effects to make non spellcasters more interesting/powerful, rather than focusing on making melee itself more interesting.

[sardonica]

For some reason I thought the general consensus was that Okawaru was too dull. If that's not the case, then that's fine.

But I'm also surprised that the fact that Oka is fine as is the focus of the discussion--anyone have things to say about the ideas presented? .

Somebody already said it above, I think it was the first post after yours.

Giving up teleportation and blinking is stupidly bad.

That's all.

[TwilightPhoenix]

One thing Oka (and other gifting gods) need is to take their gifts back if you abandon them. It doesn't make much sense to me that they'll happily take all your powers and allies that they gave you, but they'll let you keep the gear.

[Eji1700]

One thing Oka (and other gifting gods) need is to take their gifts back if you abandon them. It doesn't make much sense to me that they'll happily take all your powers and allies that they gave you, but they'll let *that popcorn orc who spawned after you walked away* keep the gear.

It is slightly obnoxious.

[njvack]

One thing Oka (and other gifting gods) need is to take their gifts back if you abandon them. It doesn't make much sense to me that they'll happily take all your powers and allies that they gave you, but they'll let you keep the gear.

Well, to be fair, they do airdrop top-tier giants and berserk trolls on you, so it's not all "enjoy the randart exec axe, see 'ya in the pantheon when you get the orb".

An interesting wrath might be to gift dangerous opponents with very good ephemeral weapons and/or armour...

[mumra]

One thing Oka (and other gifting gods) need is to take their gifts back if you abandon them. It doesn't make much sense to me that they'll happily take all your powers and allies that they gave you, but they'll let you keep the gear.

It does make sense if you think about it. Gifts aren't the same as powers or allies.

Powers are where the god is continually boosting your own abilities with divine force. When you stop worshipping them, they stop lending you that force. It's not the same as taking something away - they simply stop participating.

When they grant you allies, those allies are worshippers of the deity. When you renounce your religion they no longer want to work with you.

Gifts on the other hand are objects that your god has given to you (not lent) and which you now own. We could easily see this being part of a "divine code of conduct" where gods aren't simply allowed to outright take property that already belongs to someone.

[Deimos]

Quick question; if I summon some BiA creatures, then renounce my religion, what happens?

[twelwe]

Trog's summons will go hostile if you leave him. If they are berserked, they retain berserk. Most divine summons or allies go hostile when you leave the God that gave them to you, though if you abandon Nemelex, your active summons stay loyal to you.

Pacified creatures stay pacified if you leave Ely. Corpses raised through Kiku's delivery will remain loyal after abandonment. Makhleb's summons remain loyal after abandonment for some reason (bug?) but Yred, fedhas and TSO summons will go hostile.

[wolloloo]

The second is to get rid of the piety loss for allies dying, and possibly replace it with actively disliking allies themselves ("Okawaru wants you to rely on your own strength!"). The current situation interacts very poorly with demonic guardian, for example.

As a side note, TSO should really not punish you when your shield of reflection sends back a ranged poison attack back to the attacker. :p

[Roderic]

The problem with Okawaru is that the rest of gods are too cool. Without them, Okawaru should be a generic game god instead of a dull one. It's a less annoying god than others and the worship has not really any counterpart; this justifies the lack of many wondrous abilities.

Gifts are ok with Okawaru. Mostly with projectiles, that makes Oka a suitable god for hunters. Only Xom and Trog offer gifts aside Okawaru and they're too special gods.

The times I've picked Oka I feel that is quite easy to manage the piety: having good weapon and kill kill kill. Maybe allowing it to decrease when fleeing battles is a good improvement to increase the challenge and the fun.

[Brysmar]

I actually agree with the OP with the concept of how fighting multiple enemies give you glory for Oka, just not sure that the rewards for each piety tier make sense to me. Seeing as Oka is the god of war usually he deems glory in the person who fights as one person. There's not much that glory of summoning 5 guys to gang up on one Hill Giant, and the fact that if he's a god of war I'm pretty sure he's an expert tactician who appreciates life or dumb morals like Zin (just sayin).

You also gain piety on how larger/smaller the enemy you're sacrificing is compared to you. So if you're an Ogre sacrificing a rat corpse don't expect much but if you're a Kobold taking down giants you can expect something a bit more.

Oka now hates it when you summon allies or charm creatures to join your side, but doesn't mind something like Pikel's slaves joining you.

*-
**- You speed up periodically for 2-3 turns when enemies surround you. It has an internal cool down of say, 5 turns. Passive (15% chance and scales up with your piety with 20% rank 3, 22 rank 4, 25, rank 5) The amount of turns you're sped up are dependent on how many enemies are swarming you though so if only 2 enemies are there then you're getting tops 1 turn but if 5/6 then you can expect the full 3 turns.
***- Heroism, but instead of granting you the usual you now are harder to harm and there's a chance mobs might run away from because of how heroic you're acting.
****-
*****- Gifts, but they only come after slaying something higher than your level or many of that mob once you've hit the cap level.

[Sar]

Okawaru is actually one of my favourite gods at the moment. There are only two changes I might make. One is to make Heroism passive, since it is quite close to that already but it'd be more convenient. The second is to get rid of the piety loss for allies dying, and possibly replace it with actively disliking allies themselves ("Okawaru wants you to rely on your own strength!").

I like those.

there's a chance mobs might run away from because of how heroic you're acting

Chasing mons isn't fun, actually the number of enemies who run away at low HP was significantly cut in the trunk.

[Roderic]

Not sure how it is piety gain made for Okawaru but it could be modulated as a function of the level of the foe compared to you, and its status when it is defeated: berserker > normal, hostile > confused / fleeing / sleeping > neutral > ally*

It makes Okawaru a bit strict about how you perform your kills and rewards more default bold fighters than rogue ones (those who incapacitate or stab or purchase fleeing enemies); in spite of this, assassins would still benefit of their stabbing if they can murder dangerous foes.

*(the last one is negative piety either if dying as currently is or by mere summon/enchantment as someone propose)

[Brysmar]

Chasing mons isn't fun, actually the number of enemies who run away at low HP was significantly cut in the trunk.

What I had in mind was that since you're being constantly surrounded 24/7 you might need a little room to breathe with some mobs running away. Perhaps I should of been more specific that it only procs when more than 3 enemies are near you and heroism is activated.

[Petro]

That leaves us with the acquirements, and here I will be brief (topics in increasing complexity):

• I think it's much better to gift more rarely, but quality.
• Perhaps we can do better than just (improved) acquirements: Okawaru could put down items as now (though of better quality), but they would be temporary. If you don't use them, they'll vanish after a while. If you do use them, then future gifting events would have a high change to increase duration (instead of new gift) and finally make the gift permanent. It wouldn't necessarily play any different than now, but I have a hunch it'd be cooler.
• A pet idea I like on top of that: using something (weapon/armour, mundane/ego/randart/gift) might lead to gifting events improve those items. This should be weighted such that there are good chances to work off negative enchantments. In other words, if you're willing to put up with the -5 plate mail of rElec for a while, then Okawaru might get it to something workable. [Technically, it'd be: a current "gifting event" would first roll for item improvement, then for gift extension; else acquire gift.]

As a self-confessed scummer and all around horrible person I can say that the first thing that came to my mind reading this is an elaborate system of swapping different gear on and off so I can keep all of it. If done carelessly this would turn into grind city. I like the idea of Oka testing you with obviously awful gear and then slowly improving it as you use it. Oka is the god of heroes, so what would be really cool would to have the item slowly turn into an artifact based on your legend. Every time you do something sufficiently epic (getting a rune, killing something way above your level) there's a chance Oka will take notice and pump up your gear. These upgrades could be based on branch, monster holiness or type, player skill preference, or they could just be totally random. That way instead of gifts being some random crap from the gods' celestial storehouse each one becomes a distinct part of the player's legend (Bonus points: Have these items generate in later games like ghosts!).

Whatever you end up doing I implore you to change Oka's gift mechanics. His gifts seem to have gotten a lot worse and significantly more random in recent builds, to the point where every item he granted me last game had negative modifiers and most were totally useless. He seems less like the god of battle and more like some cosmic hobo throwing his trash at you in exchange for a steady supply of rat carcasses.