Backgrounds


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 00:16

Backgrounds

The removal of stalkers was a long time in coming. They really had no justification for existence other than having Fullsome Distillation and Evaporation in their starting spellbook, and those two spells were badly in need of removal. You really can't fix a level 2 spell that provides functionally infinite confusion and poison clouds, plus large quantities of miasma.

edit: This post was in the 0.12 feedback thread and a discussion about backgrounds followed, so I've split it into its own thread
galehar

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 00:30

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

Well, now there's space for another background!

*crickets chirping*

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 01:11

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

Before we add another background, I'd rather see the follow-up removal of fighter for being redundant with three other unambiguously superior backgrounds, and also the removal of conjuror for being redundant with six other superior backgrounds and stepping on Vehumet's toes besides.

Also before we add another background, we need an actually good idea for a background. Lots of people have tried to come up with one, but we're pretty much stuck. The current backgrounds seem to cover all the design space there is to cover.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 01:21

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

There's not space for another background, there are 27 of them in 0.12

:p

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 01:23

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

KoboldLord wrote:Also before we add another background, we need an actually good idea for a background. Lots of people have tried to come up with one, but we're pretty much stuck. The current backgrounds seem to cover all the design space there is to cover.


Well, yes, that was the joke.

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 02:03

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

I am not convinced that there cannot be interesting new backgrounds. It may help to recall what has happened to backgrounds: many were cut (Thief, Chaos Knight of Makhleb, Paladin, Reaver, Stalker), other were changed quite a bit (Monk, caster backgrounds via book changes, religious backgrounds via god changes) and still others have been added at some point (Artificer, Skald, Arcane Marksman).

Recall that a background is intended to get you to a stage where you can make decisions. Sure, some backgrounds seem to be weaker than that, and other backgrounds can carry you into the midgame on their own (Berserker, Healer, some casters), but that's the general plan.

An idea that have not been discussed yet, as far as I am aware (and no guarantee it's half-decent):
Starting with an ally -- for the Nethack afficionados, longing for a pet. The pet shouldn't be strong in either case, so it might even be permanent. On the other hand, if it is temporary, then it could be a bit stronger and gameplay might be more interesting (rush rather than explore carefully to make most out of your pet).

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 09:53

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

One (minor) issue with the cut classes is they are all pretty cool tropes even if for gameplay they were redundant. Maybe re-adding the paladin as a (religion free) knight who came with a 'squire' would be a way to re-add the class and a logical fit for testing starting allies.
For animal 'pets' a new druid class seems a good fit.

Both paladin and druid have the advantage of being instantly recognisable fantasy staples for new players (contrast with a starting class like skald which is a little more esoteric) and it would be great to see them again if they had a purpose.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 11:19

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

Starting with an ally -- for the Nethack afficionados, longing for a pet. The pet shouldn't be strong in either case, so it might even be permanent. On the other hand, if it is temporary, then it could be a bit stronger and gameplay might be more interesting (rush rather than explore carefully to make most out of your pet).

Whenever I get an early small abomination friend they always kill everything unfairly and then die unfairly. If they are targeted by an enemy there's a good chance they'll die quickly and preventing this involves lots of micromanagement. It is very hard to have a pet be balanced. The only idea I have to fix this is to have you and your pet share HP and stat pool.

Also, I would rather play carefully for twice the XP than sit back and watch my pet do all the work.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 19:16

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

dpeg wrote:I am not convinced that there cannot be interesting new backgrounds. It may help to recall what has happened to backgrounds: many were cut (Thief, Chaos Knight of Makhleb, Paladin, Reaver, Stalker), other were changed quite a bit (Monk, caster backgrounds via book changes, religious backgrounds via god changes) and still others have been added at some point (Artificer, Skald, Arcane Marksman).

Recall that a background is intended to get you to a stage where you can make decisions. Sure, some backgrounds seem to be weaker than that, and other backgrounds can carry you into the midgame on their own (Berserker, Healer, some casters), but that's the general plan.

An idea that have not been discussed yet, as far as I am aware (and no guarantee it's half-decent):
Starting with an ally -- for the Nethack afficionados, longing for a pet. The pet shouldn't be strong in either case, so it might even be permanent. On the other hand, if it is temporary, then it could be a bit stronger and gameplay might be more interesting (rush rather than explore carefully to make most out of your pet).

I've actually been thinking along those lines for a VERY long time, but there's really not many spells that could buff a pet, and in my version the pet is probably TOO big of a focus, but if such an idea is actually crawl acceptable as a background(i feel like last time i mentioned it someone said the only way it could work would be as a god playstyle) i'll finish fleshing it out and put it up at least.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 19:28

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

crate wrote:There's not space for another background, there are 27 of them in 0.12

:p


What was added? or did we go from 28 to 27, but you consider 27 still enough/too many?

I am of course horribly biased, but I like my idea for a new class quite a bit ;) viewtopic.php?p=70782#p70782 KL didn't seem thrilled, I explained it a bit more, and then the thread died.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 19:35

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

RIP Stalkers. Dig-Passwall stabbing was the coolest thing. It's not your fault that you got saddled with evaporate.

I agree with the suggested removal of fighters and conjurors. As far as pets and summons go, I'm hoping that with the planned nerfs, summon kills will be able to give full XP again.


Side note: artificers should start with a rod of striking instead of a staff. Some dev please make this happen.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 19:51

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

tasonir wrote:
crate wrote:There's not space for another background, there are 27 of them in 0.12

:p


What was added? or did we go from 28 to 27, but you consider 27 still enough/too many?

27 levels for the dungeon, the player and skills. It's kind of crawl's magic number.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 23rd August 2012, 20:19

Re: Backgrounds

You really can't fix a level 2 spell that provides functionally infinite confusion and poison clouds, plus large quantities of miasma.

Fullsome was the problem, not evaporate.

If you want to fix stalkers then remove fullsome and allow evaporate to be castable on corpses. This way it's not infinite (unless you're worshipping kiku).

Anyway, there's no ranged/charms or ranged/tloc background.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 00:03

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

dpeg wrote:An idea that have not been discussed yet, as far as I am aware (and no guarantee it's half-decent):
Starting with an ally -- for the Nethack afficionados, longing for a pet. The pet shouldn't be strong in either case, so it might even be permanent. On the other hand, if it is temporary, then it could be a bit stronger and gameplay might be more interesting (rush rather than explore carefully to make most out of your pet).


I think a pet background would be pretty difficult for Crawl. Nethack has a significantly more detailed pet system, such that a low-level character with only a few levels of random floor trash as loot still has a reasonably high chance of getting a loot drop that specifically interacts with their starting pet in a useful way. There's not much Crawl will allow you to do with pets for most of the game other than tell them to kill some guys, shove them in the way of some guys so you can run away, or use a god power to airdrop them in from a room across the level.

At the very least, the background starting with a permanent pet would need to abscond with Nethack's upgrade system for domesticated animals, where you start with a kitten which eventually grows into a relentless killing machine if it kills enough hapless dungeon beings. Starting with a full-powered small abomination, for example, would be hopelessly overpowered for the first few Dungeon levels, such that they wouldn't be very interesting to play, yet it would almost invariably die to the first gnoll pack encountered regardless of what the player attempts to interfere.

Perhaps the box of beasts could be tweaked for this purpose? Basically, the Beast Master would be an artificer-like background that starts with decent evocations, but instead of a couple of charged wands to work with while it trains up a more sustainable source of damage, it would throw out a few rats or dogs to fight alongside. Starting equipment might also include an animal skin for flavor, and the starting weapon would be a club if the box of beasts was tweaked to be strong or a whip/spear/hand axe if the box of beasts was tweaked to be weak. As it is, the box of beasts is hardly ever used in games simply because it very rarely ever spawns before it's hopelessly obsolete.

eeviac wrote:Side note: artificers should start with a rod of striking instead of a staff. Some dev please make this happen.


They used to have the option to start with a rod of striking instead of a wand. This was the newbie trap option, because even though the rod of striking sounded good when you read the description, its damage output compared unfavorably to picking up a vanilla club off the ground and throwing it.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 00:34

Re: Backgrounds

pubby wrote:Anyway, there's no ranged/charms or ranged/tloc background.


Would these differ strongly from Skalds and Warpers who pick up the first launcher they find, though?

Beast Master sounds interesting, or at least novel.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 00:58

Re: Backgrounds

Would these differ strongly from Skalds and Warpers who pick up the first launcher they find, though?

Launcher/ammo drops are not guaranteed. Also, half of the spells in the skald book don't apply to ranged.

Is beast master much different from summoners with small mammals and canines?

Side note: artificers should start with a rod of striking instead of a staff. Some dev please make this happen.

Why not a lightning rod? The damage might be too high but that can easily be fixed.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 01:07

Re: Backgrounds

pubby wrote:Launcher/ammo drops are not guaranteed. Also, half of the spells in the skald book don't apply to ranged.

Unless wizmode is lying to me, the branding spells work just fine on launchers.

Is beast master much different from summoners with small mammals and canines?

It uses a different skill set, at least - they start out the same, playwise, but a Beastmaster and Summoner could theoretically branch out in different ways.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 01:16

Re: Backgrounds

This idea is an evolution from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2550&hilit=transmutation+earth+background

The Alchemist or The Gnome - a background to replace stalker using the Tmut/Earth combo

Starting spellbook

L1 - Requires a new spell, see below for ideas
L2 - Stoneskin
L3 - Passwall
L4 - Dig
L4 - Liquefaction

This is an idea from the original thread linked to above, but would require weakening for an L1 spell, maybe along the lines of the mephitic cloud area nerf and since it's Tmut/Earth it would only work on stone maybe:
cjo wrote:Proposed spell: Diffusion
This spell takes a portion of solid material on the ground and converts it to a diffuse form in the air. The effect is variable depending upon the material targeted. (Not a great description, but I can try to improve it later...)

Targets the ground, requires LOS
Effect is a 3x3 square
If the ground is stone or rock, you get the message "The air is filled with choking dust." It has a slowing effect on all mosters that need to breathe.
If you target a plant, you get the message "The air is filled with splinters of {plant}" and the result does damage in a 3x3 square.
If you target water, you get a steam cloud.
If you target grass, you get mud.
If you target ice, you get a freezing cloud (sounds great, but how often do you find ice outside an ice cave, where everything is cold resistant?)
If you target lava, you get clouds of flame.

This would add back the sense of shaping something besides yourself.


Other ideas for an L1 Tmut/Earth starting spell:
Consume Earth - Provides a half power (or quarter) combined might and invisibility (camouflage) effect, maybe slowing the user though, or requiring stone(s) to be in inventory or wielded?
Conjure Earth - Like Conjure Flame, but it puts up a rock wall instead. It still evaporates like the flame does.
Lead to Gold - Converts weapons and armor to cash. Ok, this is really a joke, since it would probably cripple them in the beginning when a background is still meaningful, but they're alchemists!
Water to Wine - Allows conversion of potions in inventory with strict limits, probably also terribly broken, but maybe if it was limited to might/brilliance/agility?

Starting equipment could be same as stalkers except with a good potion (or stones for Consume Earth) instead.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 01:25

Re: Backgrounds

Guppyfry wrote:Lead to Gold - Converts weapons and armor to cash. Ok, this is really a joke, since it would probably cripple them in the beginning when a background is still meaningful, but they're alchemists!

That, and it would lead to the same type of scumming that selling to shops would.

Diffusion seems too strong for a level one spell. If you're looking to re-instate a Tmut/Earth stabby combination, try something simpler. Idea: A spell that you cast on a wall, causing the rock within the wall to melt into oozy mud pseudopods that grab and immobilize adjacent monsters, like a clay throwing net.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 01:40

Re: Backgrounds

You're right. The Alchemist flavor is a hold over from fulsome and evaporate and the spell ideas for them are really just awful. The Gnome flavor makes more sense, and I like your wall net idea.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 02:07

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

dpeg wrote:An idea that have not been discussed yet, as far as I am aware (and no guarantee it's half-decent):
Starting with an ally -- for the Nethack afficionados, longing for a pet. The pet shouldn't be strong in either case, so it might even be permanent. On the other hand, if it is temporary, then it could be a bit stronger and gameplay might be more interesting (rush rather than explore carefully to make most out of your pet).


I wanna say yes, but no!

We already have one background with non-permanent allies (Su, to an extend Be too). For the permanent one, I don't think it's fair. Every background, strong or weak, gives only a temporary advantage, in the late game, every class can still become the same (except maybe for stats, if that matter...). But a permanent ally, even weak is still a flatout advantage through the game, an I don't think it fits with the actual role of the classes. Maybe this system can be tried as a new god or race.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 02:19

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

varsovie wrote:But a permanent ally, even weak is still a flatout advantage through the game


Well... until it dies.

Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 03:02

Re: Backgrounds

How about a Crusader background? It would be a sword and board type warrior with a bit of invocations,armor, shield and maybe you get * piety when choosing an altar. It would replace fighter, paladin, and give you the option of joining any god and being able to represent them right away. It might make death knights redundant, but I dunno, streamlining by dropping them too could be a good thing.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 03:13

Re: Backgrounds

pubby wrote:Is beast master much different from summoners with small mammals and canines?


A box of beasts would be a limited resource, like a wand. Unlike a caster's mp, it doesn't recharge when you mash 5. A summoner who goes Sif Muna can use summons for every fight and still pretty well expect to have an Infinitely Hegemonizing Ursine Swarm for use in Lair, and will only get stronger from there. A beast master, however, will probably burn out that starting box of beasts before Temple, and once it's gone it's gone forever. Hope you thought to train an alternate damage skill!

Much like the artificer, the beast master would basically be a fighter that didn't suck quite so hard. Once it found a marginally adequate floor weapon, it would be caught up to the fighter's equipment advantage, and the evokable item would solve a handful of problems that the fighter simply couldn't handle before it burned out. By the time the evokable item burns out, hopefully you have a deity or loot drop to compensate.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 06:52

Re: Backgrounds

what version is this all in? .12? I thought the latest was .10.3? Im still pretty new to things so maybe im missing something?
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Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 07:03

Re: Backgrounds

There's this think called trunk where you can play unfinished versions.

http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ it has not been updated to .12, it is still .11.

If you want the latest (.12), you can get it here:

http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/rss/crawl.php Console

http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/rss/crawl_tiles.php Tiles

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 08:02

Re: Backgrounds

Hum i hear the news of Stalker background removal. Apparently because of the combo Fulsome Distillation + Evaporate.


The Stalker starting book (book of Stalking) has been removed from the game too? I mean it would not deserve anything if you cut this background and any other adventurer could stumble onto Book of Stalking on the floor isn't it?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 08:12

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

nicolae wrote:
varsovie wrote:But a permanent ally, even weak is still a flatout advantage through the game


Well... until it dies.

Yes, a permanent ally isn't really permanent. But backgrounds shouldn't come with something unique. You can always "change your background" if you find the right items and train the right skills (although stat differences are harder to change). But gaining a permanent ally is really rare.
That's why I like KL's idea of using the box of beasts, but it would need some tweaking to differentiate it more from summoners. For example, it could generate about 3 permanent allied animals. The animal is scaled with evoc, so you can either get 3 weak ones on D:1, or just one and train your evocations to get a better one later when it dies.
Or keep them temporary, but with a much bigger duration, enough to clear a couple of levels.

Kheldar wrote:The Stalker starting book (book of Stalking) has been removed from the game too? I mean it would not deserve anything if you cut this background and any other adventurer could stumble onto Book of Stalking on the floor isn't it?

Remove Evaporate and Fulsome Distillation, and the book of Stalking
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
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Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 09:48

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.12)

galehar wrote:Yes, a permanent ally isn't really permanent. But backgrounds shouldn't come with something unique. You can always "change your background" if you find the right items and train the right skills (although stat differences are harder to change). But gaining a permanent ally is really rare.


The box of beasts idea is cool - as it gets around this issue of giving one background something that no other can obtain - but as it's a finite resource may effectively mean a beast master may lose his defining feature through bad luck. What if instead of a box of summoning - they used a new item, say a Wand of Taming or Leash of Bondage or similar, which can be used on beasts (with scaling difficulty ofc) - the item can tame the beast and effectively turn it into a permanent ally - but can only sustain one bond at a time. upon release - the beast would either become neutral or hostile (depending on what's deemed best) and the wand/leash could be used on another creature. Death would also allow the item to be used again - thereby elliminating the sad possibility of a beast master wandering the murky depths with no pet.
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Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 11:21

Re: Backgrounds

Well, all characters eventually lead their defining feature, some earlier then others. For example, the defining feature of a Assassin is just some starting needles. I see no fault in having a short term defining features.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 12:02

Re: Backgrounds

Deimos wrote:Well, all characters eventually lead their defining feature, some earlier then others. For example, the defining feature of a Assassin is just some starting needles. I see no fault in having a short term defining features.


Perhaps, but the assassin would have the skills and opportunity to pick up more needles. once the beast master's pet is dead he'd just be some bloke in an animal skin.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 12:31

Re: Backgrounds

EDIT: Durr, posted before finishing coffee: this idea has already been significantly discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1974&p=34919&hilit=reaver+fire+earth#p34919

Original post:
Because CDO is down I have too much time to think about Crawl instead of playing, so here's another spellbook hybrid background based on Jeremiah's Reaver idea from the bottom of here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ose:reaver

Reaver - a fire/earth combo encouraged to be a melee hybrid

Spellbook:
L1 - new spell : Molten Earth - heats all rock floor squares around caster (range 1), does a little combined fire/earth damage (maybe about 1/4 of freeze) and hinders enemies slightly like the fumbling from standing in water
L2- Fire Brand
L2 - Stoneskin
L3 - Conjure Flame
L4 - Sticky Flame
L5 - Bolt of Magma

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 14:58

Re: Backgrounds

pubby wrote:Launcher/ammo drops are not guaranteed.

Um, they're guaranteed as much as orcish chain mail is guaranteed.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 24th August 2012, 22:33

Re: Backgrounds

A little sad about the firing of stalkers. I never liked the name, sort of a bush-peeping tom who likes to send you disgusting presents or calling to your home; their ghosts were nastier than average. In the other hand the role was appealing, like a magic assassin or an alchemist (though this could be more appropiate to a "master class" if exist rather than a starting role). Sorry to heard that the spells have been removed, they were one of the most original but I can understand that they exist only as a combo and very dettached from the rest of the game-play.

As a positive note, this can be a chance to enhance the poison mage background to extend their gameplay a little further with more mid-level spells and to promote the assassins for their unique stealthy role.

The game lacks a bit of the richness in the sense of now there's only one purpose to potions and they cannot be even used for throwing to get some effect...
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 25th August 2012, 15:37

Re: Backgrounds

I wizard-moded a box of beasts onto an artificer to get a feel on how the beast master would play, and it mostly seems all right. I got the character down to Dungeon 6 before the box gave out, which was actually a pretty hairy moment because the attempt immediately before the failure that burned out the box was one that produced a hostile hell hound. I managed to escape by taking a shaft trap to Dungeon 9, though, and I trekked back upstairs to Dungeon 6 without any further trouble.

The box of beasts would need some tweaking before it could be used in a starting background, though. Currently, the item produces an animal pet from a short list, and all of the possibilities are weighted evenly. The chance of a hostile is based on evocations, but not so much so that a low-level player can meaningfully affect it. Yaks, ice beasts, water moccasins, crocodiles, and hell hounds are too strong to be available at that point, fairly easily carving their way through almost anything, and the chance of a water moccasin or hell hound being hostile is too high to risk using this item with any low-level character you care about.

If the box of beasts is to be used as starting equipment, the list of pets should either be culled of all the really strong ones, or these strong ones should not be possible to achieve at low evocations. The starting artificer I used had evocations of 4, so if they had a 80% chance at that skill of getting a jackal-strength pet and a 20% chance of getting a hound-strength pet, that seems like it would be pretty fair and reasonable. As evocations rise, the chance of getting a hound would be higher, and eventually a small chance of getting a wolf or warg would be added, and by 15 evocations you don't see jackals any more but see a decent number of hell hounds mixed in with the wolves and wargs.

Dungeon 6 was, I thought, a reasonable point for the beast master's starting box to burn out. That's around Temple depth, where you can pick up a deity who provides pets that you can use to continue the play style, most notably Nemelex and Fedhas. The variance might need to be looked at, though, as I calculate a 6% chance of it burning out on the very first attempt. A wand-like number of charges might be a better idea, or at the very least a scroll of recharging could repair a burned-out miscellaneous evokable item.

The beast master's starting skills might be similar to the artificer, but with a choice of short sword (machete), whip, hand axe, or spear instead of a staff. Lower intelligence, but slightly higher strength and dexterity. Animal skin for armor, and the starting food ration should be meat for beast masters other than spriggans and centaurs.

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