Spider god

[King_jelly]

Aren't the apts and natural abilities kept after the transformation? Being a spider does not mean one has to be the same kind of spider. It would be good if different abilities could lead to real variations in the "spider play-style".

Edit: yeah, they are. The species choice matters at least in theory...

HOW BEING A SPIDER FOREVER EFFECTS DIFFERENT SPECIES

* Generally: treat as unlimited spider form.
Herbi|carni|saprovore and gourmand mutations become irrelevant.
Mutations suppressed in Spider Form remain suppressed (claws, scales, hooves, constricting body parts, resistances, etc.).
Spider Form replaces innate stealth bonuses, size, and speed.
Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form.
Aptitudes remain the same. (+10% failure rate of Spider Form stays)
* For specific species [for later]:
Merfolk, Octopodes lose ability to swim.
Tengu can still fly.
Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).

It seems to me that merfolk are the most perjudicated because they do not retain their gimmick. What about not fumbling or slowing just in shallow water because they still retain a natural affinity to water?

Draconians lose the breath weapon if they have got one after maturity ?

Probably nagas (not mentioned here) are also deprived of their gimmicks and replaced by spider-like ones but they are indeed the kind of species closer to spiders in some sense (stealth&poison) and the opposite in other (slow vs fast, +rP vs -rP), and they would not need to become spiders if they are snakes after all... unless for some convenience they want to become faster

Ah, my mistake. Will Demonspawn keep gaining DS mutations upon level up? Could be interesting.

But my issue still stands somewhat... after worshiping this god, almost equipment becomes useless to the player, including weapons im assuming - which would then pretty much NULL any weapon apts. I really hate heavily equipment depraved playstyles/species. Half the fun of Crawl is finding amazing randart/fixdart equipment!!!

Most people will probably pick a Troll or any other high unarmed apt species to worship this god..... I love the idea of the god but I'm trying to not let it get so niche. You know what I mean?

What if the player retains their upper torso? (pic related: http://i.imgur.com/HqB3H.jpg) Silly idea?

[nicolae]

Most people will probably pick a Troll or any other high unarmed apt species to worship this god.....

Or one with good magic aptitudes, especially if we include the suggested feature that Piety removes the Spider Form spellcasting penalty. In any case, trolls would probably be horrible Ixites -- they have crappy stabbing and abysmal stealth, both of which are going to be important to any melee-based permaspider build.

I love the idea of the god but I'm trying to not let it get so niche. You know what I mean?

It's going to be a niche god no matter what happens -- the central concept is a god that requires a change of form. You could do a spider god without that idea, but it wouldn't be this one. We deliberately didn't try to make Ixhuachatetl appeal to every single player, because the basic idea clearly won't appeal to everybody. Instead, we realized it had a niche, and tried to design powers, flavor, and abilities around making that niche appealing to the people willing to try it out, rather than expanding the niche to include something for everyone. So, rather than asking "How can we make this god appealing to everyone?" we asked ourselves "Are the people who are willing to try an equipmentless mostly-spells-and/or-stabbing playstyle going to enjoy this particular one?" Judging from the thread, some people would happily give it a shot, and others won't. That's okay.

[galehar]

Sounds like a Naga would be the best race for Ix. Most of their downsides are cancelled or irrelevant and they keep their upsides (except rP). Although I guess the same could be said about the spell.

[King_jelly]

Most people will probably pick a Troll or any other high unarmed apt species to worship this god.....

Or one with good magic aptitudes, especially if we include the suggested feature that Piety removes the Spider Form spellcasting penalty. In any case, trolls would probably be horrible Ixites -- they have crappy stabbing and abysmal stealth, both of which are going to be important to any melee-based permaspider build.

I love the idea of the god but I'm trying to not let it get so niche. You know what I mean?

It's going to be a niche god no matter what happens -- the central concept is a god that requires a change of form. You could do a spider god without that idea, but it wouldn't be this one. We deliberately didn't try to make Ixhuachatetl appeal to every single player, because the basic idea clearly won't appeal to everybody. Instead, we realized it had a niche, and tried to design powers, flavor, and abilities around making that niche appealing to the people willing to try it out, rather than expanding the niche to include something for everyone. So, rather than asking "How can we make this god appealing to everyone?" we asked ourselves "Are the people who are willing to try an equipmentless mostly-spells-and/or-stabbing playstyle going to enjoy this particular one?" Judging from the thread, some people would happily give it a shot, and others won't. That's okay.

Right, but the thing is, I could play a mostly equipmentless, mostly spells/stabbing play style without this god already. It's too constricting... it's basically like a species change in the form of a god worship.... why not just make a species if it's going so be *this* constricting and pigeon-holed that is almost nulls the players initial species choice in the start of the game?

I say the torso idea might be a good fix... or at least allow cloaks, rings, amulets, and caps to be worn. Equipment is half the fun.

[nicolae]

Right, but the thing is, I could play a mostly equipmentless, mostly spells/stabbing play style without this god already.

You can do lots of playstyles without gods. The hope is that the supplementary powers are interesting enough to make playing as a spider distinct enough from other equipmentless builds. Judging from the thread, some players think they are, some don't.

why not just make a species if it's going so be *this* constricting and pigeon-holed that is almost nulls the players initial species choice in the start of the game?

Because then the initial choice of species would be 100% useless. Permaspider negates some of the distinctions, particularly equipment use and body mutations, but we still want some variety among player species, even if it's reduced in scope. Aptitudes are a major distinction, as are metabolism, healing, HP growth... Hill Orcs and Minotaurs would probably play similarly in permaspider form, but a Troll permaspider, a Deep Dwarf permaspider, and a Spriggan permaspider would all, hopefully, have distinct styles. Merfolk and Octopodes no longer fumbling or slowing down in shallow water is a good idea.

Equipment is half the fun.

Then why do players play felids, or other builds that have restricted equipment abilities? I don't think "equipment is half the fun" is a universal belief.

[Roderic]

Equipment is half the fun.

Then why do players play felids, or other builds that have restricted equipment abilities? I don't think "equipment is half the fun" is a universal belief.

And still consumables as potions and scrolls can be used.

Why not wands and decks as well ? Spiders have enough precision in their legs to manipulate corpses so a wand or a deck could be used. This will make the permaform less similar to felids... Spider form as a spell cannot but your spider god may help you in this.

[nicolae]

Why not wands and decks as well ? Spiders have enough precision in their legs to manipulate corpses so a wand or a deck could be used. This will make the permaform less similar to felids... Spider form as a spell cannot but your spider god may help you in this.

I think that might work. As your Piety increases, Ix is better able to help you adapt to your new physiology, letting you wield evocables.

[palin]

Felids already can use decks with the mouth.

a - a legendary deck of wonders (in mouth)

[Roderic]

Felids already can use decks with the mouth.

a - a legendary deck of wonders (in mouth)

I forgot that, but spiders should be able to manipulate wands, IMO. Anyway, how exactly wands are used when you have both hands wielding things, and perhaps cursed?

[palin]

I forgot that, but spiders should be able to manipulate wands, IMO. Anyway, how exactly wands are used when you have both hands wielding things, and perhaps cursed?

Probably you can "use a hand" to point the wand even if you're wielding a two handed weapon by letting go the weapon with a hand. Shields too have a handle so that you can point a wand in the general direction by moving the shield strapped to your forearm.

I don't know what happens with cursed items, if it's more psychological than physical you could maybe let go the cursed item long enough to use a wand.

But we are digressing..

[King_jelly]

Okay, so I'm still at little confused about this.

Basically this god offers perma spider form with various boosts and abilities, blocks almost all equipment, only keeps a few species-specific intrinsics, and offers only two play styles (which is really just one since some people basically do both) stealth/stabbing and spellcasting - and this is supposed to be a good idea because....?

Dont get me wrong, I'm really enjoying some of these ideas, but from my understanding gods are meant to support many types of characters/builds, not force a very narrow way of playing upon the player.

I think some things should be changed/reconsidered.

[Roderic]

Trog is very narrow IMO and nonetheless is a very efficient god and beloved by many.

Also we don't have any god focused on stealth and poisoning.

[Roderic]

Partial stripping of features...

Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form.

Aptitudes remain the same.

Merfolk, Octopodes do not slow nor fumble on shallow water
Tengu can still fly.
Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).

[nicolae]

Partial stripping of features...

Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form.

Aptitudes remain the same.

Merfolk, Octopodes do not slow nor fumble on shallow water
Tengu can still fly.
Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).

I get the impression they don't really consider the remaining features as significant as the ones that are lost, though.

[Roderic]

Only physical mutations are removed, the other ones remain.

Spider Form replaces innate stealth bonuses, size, and speed at the price of -rP and no wielding or wearing. Cheibriados also affects your speed for much worse and nobody complained about ... well almost nobody.

If cracked wall feature or arrow slits finally are implemented, tiny size can be used as a tactical advantage. Currently size only affects wielding or wearing items that spiders are not allowed, doesn't it ?

[King_jelly]

Merfolk, Octopodes do not slow nor fumble on shallow water
Tengu can still fly.
Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).

So there's no point to play a DS of Iy (is that this shorten nick name)? Bad apts with anything perma spider form has to offer, no demon mutations AND you're affected by Holy Wrath? I guess it'd only be worth it if you switch over to this god after you had a couple of DS mutations.

But still, although Trog is a somewhat narrow god, your starting species still makes a sort of impact. Well, I've always wanted a stealth/poison god - and i'm not apposed to most of the mechanics being offered with this god - but over ruling your starting species is a bit silly imo and we're letting outselves be restricted because of the gods subplot!

How about as a 1 star ability you can change form at will between spider form and (species). A semi-perma spider form. Thoughts?

[Roderic]

So there's no point to play a DS of Iy (is that this shorten nick name)? Bad apts with anything perma spider form has to offer, no demon mutations AND you're affected by Holy Wrath? I guess it'd only be worth it if you switch over to this god after you had a couple of DS mutations.

AFAIK only physical-shape mutations are removed, the other ones would remain, i.e. nightstalker, demonic guardian, empowered by death ... demonic spiders sound cool