Spider god

[pubby]

just like Jiyva's appeal comes from "have jellies eat stuff for you".

People play Jiyva because of the good mutation suits, not because of annoying jellies. Also, Jiyva is not at all niche - practically any player can go Jiyva and make good use of it, unlike Ix.

I suppose that not everyone in the Crawl universe agrees that the Ixhuachatetl creation myth is true. But I do like giving Crawl a creation myth, and I especially like giving Crawl a creation myth that suggests that the dominant species were not the pinnacle of creation but in fact the creator's worst mistake.

If the developers confirm one god's creation myth is true then it practically invalidates all other gods.

[nicolae]

If the developers confirm one god's creation myth is true then it practically invalidates all other gods.

Why? None of the other gods have creation myths or claim to be creation deities. That's how pantheons work. This isn't monotheism.

[Roderic]

I see Crawl religion as a mixture of many cults from sources of all visitors and native races, so it's reasonable to assume that some deities does not belong to the same original religion but they are included in a syncretic miscellania; they are simply more worshipped in the dungeon than in the surface. Because there are people that believes that a divine spider created humanoids this does not mean that everybody believe it as well.

This is mostly the reason to leave partially undefined the relations between the gods and the cult details, for everybody can imagine and complete the myths and religions. In religion myths and believes real truly facts do not exist as such: which is a core belief to ones may be an heresy to others.

The description may read as "Ixslksjhfdls worshippers believes that It was the primal creator god blablabla ...."

but this God makes the God more of an issue than your actual character, because it's a God that is acting like a Race.

where 's the problem ? You gain a new species and new god stuff for the price of one, and the devs avoid to include an insectoid race as a starting one (which would be otherwise a non-return path to bizarreness since cats and octopus came to the game)

[eeviac]

Personally, I would never worship this god, because I can't stand races with severe slot limitations. I've got my Fe and Op wins. Never again.

[pubby]

If the developers confirm one god's creation myth is true then it practically invalidates all other gods.

Why? None of the other gods have creation myths or claim to be creation deities. That's how pantheons work. This isn't monotheism.

I was going by the concept that Crawl's gods cease to exist when nobody worships them. This is a fact for Jivya, so let's just assume that's how the other gods work too. Because of this, it is logical to infer that the gods were created by the worshipers, not the other way around. Having a creator god goes against this idea and it means that the creator god would be the supreme god - it indirectly created all other gods.

There are many ways to look at it but that is mine. Having Crawl's backstory be ambiguous is advantageous as everyone can make what they want out of it.

but this God makes the God more of an issue than your actual character, because it's a God that is acting like a Race.

where 's the problem ? You gain a new species and new god stuff for the price of one, and the devs avoid to include an insectoid race as a starting one (which would be otherwise a non-return path to bizarreness since cats and octopus came to the game)

I tend to see characters as "3d" which means you have three axises of decisions - species, god, and play-style. Certain combinations abandon one of these axises, for instance Demigods because they can't worship a god and FeBe (and Trog in general) because the playstyle is chosen by the god. These "2d" characters tend to be boring. So when you say "a new species and new god stuff for the price of one" I see that as being a "2d" character. And because your form is changed it removes many aspects of your species choice, essentially leaving this as being "1.5d".

[blackcustard]

I love this idea. Even if it is pretty niche, that can be okay. Besides, it might not really be that niche anyway; we'll just have to see how it plays. And I think the need for spider form is just fine. If getting Ix early game is too rare and no one ever gets to enjoy the new god, you can make the altar untimed, guarantee a way to achieve spider form, or just remove the early game altar and force players to head for mid-game and spider if they want Ix. (Okay so the last solution is sort of like preventing the baby from crying by not giving it candy in the first place.)

You could leave spider hostile but re-flavor combat in that branch. Maybe Ix is trying to battle harden his champion and thinks a couple hundred spiders is a fair price to pay. In addition, since spider form doesn't eat and spiders don't drop anything except corpses, you could sometimes re-flavor killing a spider as "defeating" (full xp, full piety, no corpse, and the death message is different). You could be pulling your punches (fangs?) in melee combat. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to "defeat" a spider with an iood, so you wouldn't always be "defeating". Obviously, if you die, you die for real, but that's Ix, his spiders are individually disposable, and if you weren't tough enough to collect YOUR OWN RUNE then he didn't need you anyway. Arachne in particular (being intelligent and a magic user in her own right) could be sparring with you: maybe the fireballs you cook her with are illusions. None of this would change the gameplay. I think hostile spider in spider form would be cool, no other god lets you fight on your home turf.

Maybe bookend spider with some god messages; where he tells you to retrieve the rune as training, and to not worry about the collateral damage. He would congratulate you when you got the rune, at which point the nest spiders would become neutral. Or perhaps they don't become neutral until you escape from spider alive. (Metroid Crawl )

Also +1 for a special vault with Ix in it down below Zot5. No loot, nothing to kill, purely decoration. Only for spider god followers. That would be sweet. Take the orb to him before the surface for a bonus message.

As for the creation myth: multiple real gods can each claim to have created life. Maybe one is lying, maybe they each really think they created life but are both wrong, maybe the real story is more complex (they worked together, perhaps unintentionally). Or maybe we just shouldn't worry about it, it's not a big deal.

[roctavian]

I feel like some of the older gods should have some creation myths themselves. Not all of them. I doubt Trog ever made anything.

Besides all that, I'm excited to see this one get some work, though the flavor of contentious abilities definitely needs more consideration.

[Roderic]

If the developers confirm one god's creation myth is true then it practically invalidates all other gods.

Why? None of the other gods have creation myths or claim to be creation deities. That's how pantheons work. This isn't monotheism.

I was going by the concept that Crawl's gods cease to exist when nobody worships them. This is a fact for Jivya, so let's just assume that's how the other gods work too. Because of this, it is logical to infer that the gods were created by the worshipers, not the other way around. Having a creator god goes against this idea and it means that the creator god would be the supreme god - it indirectly created all other gods.

There are many ways to look at it but that is mine. Having Crawl's backstory be ambiguous is advantageous as everyone can make what they want out of it.

Sorry to derail a bit but "creator gods" are not the same that supreme or overlord gods and not the same as all-creation or first-creation gods. Many gods in many myths are shapers, builders or merely mankind creators but with a preexistent world and the presence of even ancient elder gods or entities. A myth after all it's just a cultural explanation to justify some kind of conduct or ethics by a culture, in this concrete case the sentient spiders and the spider-fanboys and their anthropophobia. Nobody is telling that the rest of dungeon denizens know and believe this.

"Because of this, it is logical to infer that the gods were created by the worshipers, not the other way around".. All in all, in myths and religions people create beliefs which include an explanation to their own creation.

[twelwe]

This is a dumb discussion. Crawl adds/removes content based on gameplay merit, not on the feasibility of a god existing in reality under the "rules" you arguing lunatics seem to believe they are bound to. When I activate heroism while worshiping okawaru, I'm not trying to evoke memories of Gideon or David or Samson, or any heroic biblical tale at all. I'm just using a resource in a video game. Got it?

[dd]

This is a dumb discussion. Crawl adds/removes content based on gameplay merit, not on the feasibility of a god existing in reality under the "rules" you arguing lunatics seem to believe they are bound to. When I activate heroism while worshiping okawaru, I'm not trying to evoke memories of Gideon or David or Samson, or any heroic biblical tale at all. I'm just using a resource in a video game. Got it?

You might, that doesn't mean everyone else sees it the same way. There's no one single "correct" way one should play crawl or any other game - some people get more immersed in games than others, and get more enjoyment out of story elements and such.


Now, on the topic of spider mating, I think it does have some problematic elements that would be better avoided. How about instead of mating with living, sentient beings against their will (which is basically rape), you could use the corpses of enemies as material to place your eggs into? It would still retain the "horror" element while being far less problematic. And before someone starts talking about necrophilia or such, I don't think it's comparable - many animals lay their eggs to corpses of larger animals, it's entirely natural, and doesn't contain the problematic element of forcing a sentient being to intercourse.

[twelwe]

This is a dumb discussion. Crawl adds/removes content based on gameplay merit, not on the feasibility of a god existing in reality under the "rules" you arguing lunatics seem to believe they are bound to. When I activate heroism while worshiping okawaru, I'm not trying to evoke memories of Gideon or David or Samson, or any heroic biblical tale at all. I'm just using a resource in a video game. Got it?

You might, that doesn't mean everyone else sees it the same way. There's no one single "correct" way one should play crawl or any other game - some people get more immersed in games than others, and get more enjoyment out of story elements and such.

I'm not trying to sway you to my thinking. I'm telling you how development decisions are made.

[dd]

This is a dumb discussion. Crawl adds/removes content based on gameplay merit, not on the feasibility of a god existing in reality under the "rules" you arguing lunatics seem to believe they are bound to. When I activate heroism while worshiping okawaru, I'm not trying to evoke memories of Gideon or David or Samson, or any heroic biblical tale at all. I'm just using a resource in a video game. Got it?

You might, that doesn't mean everyone else sees it the same way. There's no one single "correct" way one should play crawl or any other game - some people get more immersed in games than others, and get more enjoyment out of story elements and such.

I'm not trying to sway you to my thinking. I'm telling you how development decisions are made.

So now you're the authority on the minds of the developers?

I'm pretty sure the developers don't make all decisions purely based on gameplay merits. If they did, Crawl would be a purely abstract game, like chess or something. Gameplay is a higher priority in Crawl, sure, but that doesn't mean that decisions are never made based on flavour, theme, immersiveness etc.

[nicolae]

I'm pretty sure the developers don't make all decisions purely based on gameplay merits.

They don't, but if the devteam gives Ix the thumbs-down, I don't think it's going to be because having an explicit creation deity steps on the other gods' backstories.

[twelwe]

So now you're the authority on the minds of the developers?

I'm pretty sure the developers don't make all decisions purely based on gameplay merits.

Of course they don't. Water walking is in the game, but Jesus didn't need to surpass an arbitrary divine threshold of piety to do it. Zin is said to be a christian derivative. Ideas may be derived from existing ideology, but their basis is meaningless when it comes to implementation. That is why I said this is a dumb discussion, because it is meaningless to gameplay: as much as the story of David and Goliath is to Okawaru's Heroism.

[dpeg]

Some words on the meta-discussion as well: just like with any other content, it is interesting to allude to stuff people know. (There may be differences in opinion about whether "Mountain Dwarf" or "Minotaur" are better at evoking a mental picture, but both will certainly beat "Species 15". Also note that one can purposefully bypass conventions, as is done with many demon names -- this is an attempt to *create* theme/flavour from scratch.)
Gods are fascinating, especially to a dyed-in-the-wool atheist like me, because actual humans on this very planet have believed all kinds of things (still do, atheists included) and behave accordingly. Drawing from that rich source is awesome, at least for me. For example Beogh (I just happened to talk about this with jpeg yesterday): we wanted a final power that indicates "you're on top of the orc saviour game", and the idea of a Crown of Beogh was floating around. It'd be an item gift (think crowning in Nethack), but jpeg would have none of it. Then I suggested water walking, on a whim. This caught on, because it gets the point across without any words, is funny (or makes fun of Christianity, depending on your point of view) and makes sense in the game world, even if it is not very useful.

I can rephrase that as follows: while almost always gameplay trumps flavour, it is very good to have flavour (for example, I believe that the Vaults branch or Okawaru suffer from having not enough flavour to know what to do with them). If there are two gameplay chances (e.g. new features), the one boosting flavour is often more interesting.

Roderic: regarding god death: perhaps all the existing spiders are enough for Ixy to go on? And in the case of Jiyva, perhaps slimes just don't bring enough spiritual value to the table, so that the god dies without proper worshipers? In other words, who's to say that creatures like spiders are incapable of worship? It may just be that the other gods don't cater for this kind of audience.

Regarding creating myth: It'd also be an interesting option to state that Ixy has created the orb at some point. (A god shunned by fellow gods for something like this is not unheard of.)

[KoboldLord]

I'm given to understand that both Ashenzari and Lugonu were characterized substantially more in their original proposals, but they got trimmed down to what they are now. This is a good thing; there's more room for imagination, and whatever the player imagines is going to be substantially more compelling than a text file full of official lore ever could be. Less is sometimes more, so to speak.

At the moment, Ix's description is overly detailed compared to Crawl's other deities, but that's a fairly trivial issue that I'm sure will be taken care of after the mechanical bits are worked out. No need to worry about it now.

[dpeg]

KoboldLord: yes and no. There was a lot more stuff for those gods (an inofficial story I once wrote about Lugonu's fall from the pantheon, and someone had a piece about how Ashenzari ended up nailed to the sky) than is now on the ^ screens but it was also good to have them. While ill-fitting parts can be freely discarded, the additional flavour may really help in coming up with gameplay-relevant stuff (appropriate powers, conducts, piety rules).

You are absolutely right that stuff only mentioned in an in-game text pales to actual gameplay features. This is why I'd love to see altar desecration under Lugonu so much: it'd tell everyone, without using words, that Lugonu is the renegade god. At the same time, it'd imply that the Temple gods, even when antagonistic (e.g. Trog-Sif, Kikubaaqudgha-The Shining One) have some basic mutual understanding that's incompatible with Lugonu. It would not explain just how Lugonu ended up out there (or if she was ever in), but this part is again easily left to imagination.

[graffen69]

I like the idea of a Spider Queen a la Lolth, but then I’m biased playing D&D for 3 decades.
I had some ideas of my own of a crazed necro/wizard god named Raxor with focus on Pus, Rot, Disease, Sickness and a blind goddess named Nimbula the sightless who yields piety the longer you use the same gear. Her portfolios would be Stealth, Darkness & Secrecy, kinda like an opposite Ash but with her own unique abilities. Thing is, I´m not sure where to put it, since I don´t want to invest too much time into it before getting some feedback. Is there a thread only for Gods?

[KoboldLord]

I like the idea of a Spider Queen a la Lolth, but then I’m biased playing D&D for 3 decades.
I had some ideas of my own of a crazed necro/wizard god named Raxor with focus on Pus, Rot, Disease, Sickness and a blind goddess named Nimbula the sightless who yields piety the longer you use the same gear. Her portfolios would be Stealth, Darkness & Secrecy, kinda like an opposite Ash but with own her unique abilities. Thing is, I´m not sure where to put it, since I don´t want to invest too much time into it before getting some feedback. Is there a thread only for Gods?

Your best bet is to watch the forums for a couple versions to see what sorts of god ideas get traction, and why. This will be a tiny, tiny minority. Your chances of success are roughly zero if you don't put significant work into developing these hypothetical unique abilities, but even if you do that work your odds are still pretty grim unless you're willing to do much of the coding yourself. You're basically hoping that a passing devteam member gets so excited about your idea that they drop what they're doing to make it happen.

If you do get something workable together, it would get its own thread.

[pubby]

Roderic: regarding god death: perhaps all the existing spiders are enough for Ixy to go on? And in the case of Jiyva, perhaps slimes just don't bring enough spiritual value to the table, so that the god dies without proper worshipers? In other words, who's to say that creatures like spiders are incapable of worship? It may just be that the other gods don't cater for this kind of audience.

If you need an intelligent worshiper then just rename brain worms to brain spiders.

[nicolae]

I like the idea of a Spider Queen a la Lolth, but then I’m biased playing D&D for 3 decades.
I had some ideas of my own of a crazed necro/wizard god named Raxor with focus on Pus, Rot, Disease, Sickness and a blind goddess named Nimbula the sightless who yields piety the longer you use the same gear. Her portfolios would be Stealth, Darkness & Secrecy, kinda like an opposite Ash but with own her unique abilities. Thing is, I´m not sure where to put it, since I don´t want to invest too much time into it before getting some feedback. Is there a thread only for Gods?

Along with KoboldLord's advice, whenever I get an idea I want to develop, I sometimes read other forums threads and similar ideas on the devwiki, to see what sort of thoughts the devteam has. I think a couple sickness gods have popped up on the wiki.

[dpeg]

pubby: [regarding Jiyva's death from absence of sufficient worship: only slimes, not even spiders]
But I am happy to have Jiyva die!

graffen: It's something of a conundrum: without enough work into the proposal, it won't go anywhere. You don't want to invest time until you can be sure the proposal will at least be taken serious.

What I can offer is this (I think I am/was the dev closest to gods): write up something and send it to me. No need for elaborate stuff (nowhere the spider god proposal -- that was *after* nicolae and I discussed all the minutia; your email should be way earlier in the development cycle). Generally, what I'd like to see in a god is:
a) a theme holding the god together -- this can be simple, but I like something better than "this will be a god for archers"
b) some examples of powers -- at least some should be unique
c) some thought about how the god will play it -- for example the potential audience.

I believe (but this is subjective) that gods are more interesting if they have appeal to more than one build. (For example, I always preferred a god for "ranged attacks" to one for "conjurations".)

[Roderic]

dpeg: I agree, spiders are intelligent enough to be worshipers, mostly if they are the size of a dog or larger, which means some brains... slimes in the other hand are quite steps behind in evolution of an intelligent awareness.

By the way, I dont' know how you came up with the "aztec-like" name, but in north-american Navajo lore, the spider is such a creator goddess.

I would like to focus more on the game-play and balance rather than theological discussions, at least for this thread. The main topics here are because of the lore (which is secondary to me for being mere details in game) and the mating issue, which raised some frowns upon not because of the mechanics but of the theme (to me it's the contrary, I found the mechanics dull rather than worry about theme; an alternative I proposed to Nicholae is about flesh-eating spiderlings coming out from the guts)

As someone said before there's a risk of having a god that makes too plain characters, bidimensional or unidimensional. My concerns are if the spider race gimmicks can substitute god powers + race and allow several backgrounds with ease. Anyway I think it's worthwhile coding to see how it works.

[galehar]

How about this: spider swarm is a normal ability, that costs piety and it makes neutral spiders coming from all directions and going at the target. You can attack some for food and let the others attack the enemies.

Well, it wasn't supposed to be a summons, there's already plenty of those; it was intended like a status effect that does damage over time and spreads between monsters. Displaying "s"s was just supposed to be a visual effect to indicate to console players that a spider swarm was active, like how lantern of darkness darkens the tiles you can see.

(Sorry for the late answer) I know it wasn't supposed to be a summon, but I'm afraid I find spider swarm to be quite boring. Irresistible, AC ignoring, LOS affecting damage over time. Those kind of things are hard to balance, remember tornado. So I'm more worried about spider swarm than spider mating. My proposal (which could be called Spider Call) is not just another summoning ability. I see it as more similar to Lugonu's corruption. Fill the level with neutral monsters, effective and dangerous. Spiders would crawl out of the ground and walls, coming from everywhere. That's seem more fun the a LOS damage-over-time debuff. And can also be used to replenish food stocks in corpseless branches.

[nicolae]

By the way, I dont' know how you came up with the "aztec-like" name, but in north-american Navajo lore, the spider is such a creator goddess.

Some Mesoamerican cultures had spider gods as underworld deities, which is where I got the idea and theme for Descent, and then dpeg suggested that we have an Aztec style name, so I smushed a bunch of Nahuatl sounds together.

[link_108]

dpeg: my thoughts on your proposal ( I wasn't able to read the whole thread, but wanted to post before I left)!
How come merfold and octopodes lose the ability to swim when they become spiders? There are spiders that basically walk on water, not sure about spiders that can fly though. Octopodes should still be able to keep 8 rings, but you addressed that earlier in the thread.
Could you explain a bit more how the spider webs can be used to get across gaps? for instance, can you use other webs as support, such that spider web bridges could be built?
For the sulk ability, could you explain what helpless implies? and are you asked for confirmation when you move through enemies? Since it has a high piety cost, it might be an issue. Also, do you get a bonus for attacking while in sulk? Since the monster is unaware of your presence.
The food issue, only a small percent of the chunks be converted into permafood while the rest rots after a while. Not sure if it was addressed, but I think mummies should not have to eat.
Not a fan of the 10% failure chance to casting, but I think nicolae had a good fix for it, decreasing the failure rate by 2% for each * piety gained. I like his ideas about the mating debate. I say leave it in for now; if people actually complain, then take it out and replace it with spiders exploding from humans as they run away (:<

[nicolae]

dpeg: my thoughts on your proposal ( I wasn't able to read the whole thread, but wanted to post before I left)!
How come merfold and octopodes lose the ability to swim when they become spiders? There are spiders that basically walk on water, not sure about spiders that can fly though. Octopodes should still be able to keep 8 rings, but you addressed that earlier in the thread.

Merfolk and Octopodes in Spider Form lose the ability to swim, and we kept that for simplicity. Tengu can still fly in Spider Form because it's an innate ability to levitate, not a function of having wings.

I can go either way regarding Mf and Oc characters swimming, I can think up flavor reasons for each.

Could you explain a bit more how the spider webs can be used to get across gaps? for instance, can you use other webs as support, such that spider web bridges could be built?

Yeah, webs can be supported by other webs to make bridges across water and lava. The exact mechanics probably need more detail, though. (I think I wrote some in the Long Summary but it's long.)

For the sulk ability, could you explain what helpless implies? and are you asked for confirmation when you move through enemies? Since it has a high piety cost, it might be an issue. Also, do you get a bonus for attacking while in sulk? Since the monster is unaware of your presence.

I think helpless monsters are just ones you can stab; Skulk lets you move through monsters who are helpless, since they're confused/petrified/asleep/held/distracted or otherwise unable to respond to you. I don't think we planned for asking confirmation when moving through enemies, with the idea that if you want to attack instead, use the "attack anyway" commands. (Shift+direction key, right?) You do get a bonus for attacking while in Skulk, since it's functionally the same as a stab, though attacking ends the Skulk effect.

The food issue, only a small percent of the chunks be converted into permafood while the rest rots after a while. Not sure if it was addressed, but I think mummies should not have to eat.

Irrelevant since mummies can't cast Spider Form anyway.

Actually, if we get rid of the strict Spider Form requirement, and allow non-spiders to join up, mummies and ghouls could sign up too. So we'd have to take that into account.

Not a fan of the 10% failure chance to casting, but I think nicolae had a good fix for it, decreasing the failure rate by 2% for each * piety gained. I like his ideas about the mating debate. I say leave it in for now; if people actually complain, then take it out and replace it with spiders exploding from humans as they run away (:<

Sounds fair.

[SchwaWarrior]

*reads thread title*

... How about a legion of SPIIIIDERSSSS!?

[JeffQyzt]

There are spiders that basically walk on water, not sure about spiders that can fly though

Spider/insect water walking depends on the said critter being small enough not to break the surface tension of the water. Not really feasible for human sized spiders (of course, once you inject some realism, there are other logistical problems with giant spiders/insects too...best not to go too far down that path.)

There are swimming spiders though; they even build webs underwater to hold an air reservoir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_bell_spider

As for flying spiders, not so much (no wings) unless you count baby spiders ballooning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning_(spider)

[dpeg]

Updated the first two posts. I hope I didn't mangle comments. This is not supposed to stir up another lengthy discussion, although I'll always be happy to discuss stuff.

This will go to the dev wiki after a while, and then, in all probability rot into oblivion

[nicolae]

Updated the first two posts. I hope I didn't mangle comments. This is not supposed to stir up another lengthy discussion, although I'll always be happy to discuss stuff.

This will go to the dev wiki after a while, and then, in all probability rot into oblivion

a special Oblivion Temple for all the gods that won't get implemented...

I don't really have much else to add to the comments. I'm still enthusiastic about Ix, though, hopefully someone with coding skills is too!

[Sjohara]

One thing that's kind of troubling me with this proposal is that, thematically, Ixhuachatetl doesn't actually do very much. After the initial transformation, basically all of your other powers are just things that you'd expect any old spider to be able to do (poisoning prey, spinning webs, hatching egg sacs, etc.). Even if you try to tag it with messages like "Ixhuachatetl grants you the ability to X", it feels more like naturally growing and maturing as a spider than receiving god-given miraculous power. The fact that the ultimate "power" is just reaching sexual maturity reinforces this. Since there is no sense that Ixhuachatetl is rewarding your worship with supernatural abilities beyond what is typical for living creatures (other then magically creating arachnid sex partners for you, in the unlikely event that the whole "raping and eating people" thing doesn't get cut down the line), one questions why any sensible person would decide to worship him unless they had a spider fetish. I mean, I guess it takes a pretty troubled individual to decide to worship Jiyva too, but with Jiyva there's a sense of being constantly lavished with divine attention which is largely absent from the spider god.

To make things even weirder, these actions which are utterly mundane for a spider cost piety and train Invocations for some reason. If the form of the spider is so perfect, then why is something as simple as moving quietly past someone only possible through divine intervention? Mechanically the whole idea reads a lot more like a race proposal than a god proposal. A very interesting race proposal, mind you, but I'm not sure if it holds together as a religion.

[dpeg]

sjohara: The ability to walk through distracted/sleeping monsters will certainly be and feel strong. Also, humanoids effectively giving up in terror when they see you is noticeable and useful gameplay-wise.

As was said above, the basic appeal and initial idea of this god is "you *are* a spider" (instead of "you pretend to be a spider" when in Spider Form). That's similar to Beogh's "you are the orcish Messias". You are a spider deluxe, with properties that hopefully make for interesting gameplay. We came up with a bunch of passive and four active powers that hopefully enhance your spider experience. (This discards Mating which is an one-off effect.) Web-slinging, skulking and some form of spider swarm are, to me, doing something.
YMWV but that is the deal with all gods: with old Okawaru, I always had the feeling of doing nothing, and I still have it somewhat with the new incarnation, or also with Sif Muna.

You have a point that Ixy sounds like a species put into god form (mechanically) but that's not so bad in my opinion: we've been thinking about insectoid player species and that seemed hard. Doing it the spider form -> spider god way seems easy and natural.

[Ossuary]

Two small comments:

1)

[color=#0000FF]The idea of mating caused a controversy. I have been thinking about this for a while, and talked to people. Potential modifications:

I find the whole idea _extremely_ disgusting, even if crawl is only a game (and that does not have anything to do with morals, just with good or bad taste).

2)
Either it should be impossible to convert to Zin in spider form, or he/she/it should force the player back into the original form when he converts (this should posibly count as Zin's ****** piety gift). A mutated spider worshipping Zin is unthinkable.

[dtkz]

The idea seem to be rather complicated as whole and I feel goes against the design goal of crawl of doing away with needing non-spoilery information. Most of the other gods and their effects on playstyle can usually be summed up in a couple of sentences. Even for those familiar with spider form, there are still major differences between that and being a spider of Ixy, such as the entirely new system of eating. The way that your previous race can affect your characteristics in this form also seems like the sort of thing that a person would need to read the wiki for.

[Sjohara]

sjohara: The ability to walk through distracted/sleeping monsters will certainly be and feel strong. Also, humanoids effectively giving up in terror when they see you is noticeable and useful gameplay-wise.

As was said above, the basic appeal and initial idea of this god is "you *are* a spider" (instead of "you pretend to be a spider" when in Spider Form). That's similar to Beogh's "you are the orcish Messias". You are a spider deluxe, with properties that hopefully make for interesting gameplay. We came up with a bunch of passive and four active powers that hopefully enhance your spider experience. (This discards Mating which is an one-off effect.) Web-slinging, skulking and some form of spider swarm are, to me, doing something.
YMWV but that is the deal with all gods: with old Okawaru, I always had the feeling of doing nothing, and I still have it somewhat with the new incarnation, or also with Sif Muna.

You have a point that Ixy sounds like a species put into god form (mechanically) but that's not so bad in my opinion: we've been thinking about insectoid player species and that seemed hard. Doing it the spider form -> spider god way seems easy and natural.

I'm not saying that playing as a spider doesn't create interesting gameplay, I'm saying that the abilities don't really feel divine in any way. I mean, okay, I can spin webs. Of course I can spin webs, I'm a spider. Any idiot spider can spin a web. What does me continually killing humans in Ixhuachatetl's name have to do with it? Draconians getting their breath weapon isn't a gift from the Draconian God, it's a natural function of growing up as a Draconian. If I'm spinning my own webs, poisoning my own prey, and even conceiving my own "summons", then where is the part where my god intervening in my quest? We have the three-axis character system of Background/Species/God, but what we have here is a god who performs a one-time overwrite of your species (kind of) and then doesn't really go on to also fill the typical role of a god; virtually everything beyond that first miracle is a function of your new species and not your religion.

What's hard about making an equipment-constrained species with a new hunger mechanic, a charge-based breath weapon, and an improved unarmed brand and stabbing at XLs X, Y, and Z? None of that seems inherently more complex than what other races have already done. Coming up with a flavor to justify the spider swarm is the only hard part, and the overall idea could even still function without that (it'd be a shame to lose it, but I see the infinitely-regenerating webs as being the core gameplay mechanic of being a spider given how uncommon nets are for anyone else). You'd probably have to ditch the fear aura and Descend, but neither of those are central to the playstyle. You might also have to drop Skulk just because being able to web something and then switch places with it in a corridor is really strong, but again, since you can climb on walls, being able to move past an incapacitated person fits firmly into the "totally mundane biological activity" category and not the "divine providence" category. As a god ability it just seems silly. "Oh mighty diety, please grant me the power to totally walk past this guy, amen." (And then the god says, "Walking past three people in one day? I'm revoking your biting privileges!")

[Roderic]

Let the majority of the active abilities cost only food and/or MP, HP as they are biological abilities. Let Ix support passively these abilities for pious spiders according to their piety level, as Vehumet does to conjurations for pious conjurers.

[Galefury]

We have the three-axis character system of Background/Species/God, but what we have here is a god who performs a one-time overwrite of your species (kind of) and then doesn't really go on to also fill the typical role of a god; virtually everything beyond that first miracle is a function of your new species and not your religion.

Species and gods are indeed different axes, and the proposed Ixy gameplay is clearly aligned along the god axis. Multiple frequently used active abilities are generally a god thing in crawl, not a race thing. Yes, the flavor is a transformation into a different kind of being, but the gameplay is clearly that of a crawl god, not a crawl species. Which is why you get to keep your aptitudes and some other racial abilities.

Besides, the mentioned spider abilities are natural spider things, yes, but they are far more powerful than for most natural spiders in crawl. So not only are you not a natural spider but a transformed one, but also your spider abilities become stronger than those of real spiders. In my opinion this is sufficiently divine.

[Sjohara]

Breath weapons, size, speed, stealthiness, unarmed attack type, equipment slot availability, elemental vulnerabilities, and nutrition system are all typical facets of your species. Skulk, Descend, and the spider swarm less so, admittedly, but of those two categories I'd say that the former is going to be making the bulk of the contributions to your playstyle easily, not just in terms of how you use your god but in terms of how you do practically everything.

I haven't actually been to the spider branch yet, but from reading the dev wiki way back when I was under the impression that thrown webs, incapacitating poisons, and spiderling swarms were all things that the monsters could naturally do to you. Maybe not all of that made it in; I don't really know.

[Galefury]

There are spiders with melee webbing attacks (I think Arachne has a ranged webbing thingy), spiders with strong poison, wasps with paralysis and slowing. No swarms. And certainly not all of it on the same monster.

One reason why this wouldn't work as a species is that it would have to be balanced with felids, and would have a lot of overlap with them. Yes, something like permanent spider form would work as a species. But not with all the extra spidery poisony webby sugar on top. By making it a god you get to be a much more spidery spider, and I think this is more interesting than what would be possible with just a race.

The overlap with felids can be considered a gameplay problem, because felid gameplay has several problems. But you sound like you don't have issues with the gameplay, and what you don't like is the flavor of a god who "just" turns you into a superspider, because this is not divine enough. This is an entirely different matter. The best counterargument to that is "Sif Muna". Ixy would do a lot more things that are noticeably divine than a bunch of other gods. More than most of the popular crawl gods, actually.

[dpeg]

Let me point out that Fedhas allows players to travel through mushrooms Of course, Fedhas also lets it rain which is an undisputedly divine feature during the last twenty thousand years or so.

I fully understand where Sjohara is coming from, but I'll remark that gods are a way to re-define rules. This is why *only* Fedhas allows you to walk through plants, or why Trog's regeneration can be stronger than any other source (regarding Deep Dwarves).

Now you could ask why spiders are the only thing which would need both a species and a god. But nicolae answered that: they're divine since creation

[galehar]

But you sound like you don't have issues with the gameplay, and what you don't like is the flavor of a god who "just" turns you into a superspider, because this is not divine enough.

I think Sjohara's arguments are about gameplay too. I am also a bit bothered by the idea of a god that overwrite 70% of what defines your species.

The best counterargument to that is "Sif Muna".

This new feature is not so bad because we already have a feature which is worse. This is a terrible argument. We must not use that kind of reasoning to guide game design decisions.

[dpeg]

galehar: Yes, that's fair. We tried to provide some flesh around the "spider form for reals" concept. I am confident the proposal has some interesting and novel bits to offer (by the way, our gameplay thing was "super stabber"), but on the grand scale of things, I'd rather lobby for the gold god or the random gods. The spider god sits in a tiny niche but nicolae and I never claimed otherwise.

[Roderic]

There are spiders with melee webbing attacks (I think Arachne has a ranged webbing thingy), spiders with strong poison, wasps with paralysis and slowing. No swarms. And certainly not all of it on the same monster.

One reason why this wouldn't work as a species is that it would have to be balanced with felids, and would have a lot of overlap with them. Yes, something like permanent spider form would work as a species. But not with all the extra spidery poisony webby sugar on top. By making it a god you get to be a much more spidery spider, and I think this is more interesting than what would be possible with just a race.

The overlap with felids can be considered a gameplay problem, because felid gameplay has several problems. But you sound like you don't have issues with the gameplay, and what you don't like is the flavor of a god who "just" turns you into a superspider, because this is not divine enough. This is an entirely different matter. The best counterargument to that is "Sif Muna". Ixy would do a lot more things that are noticeably divine than a bunch of other gods. More than most of the popular crawl gods, actually.

As I said before, a supporter god is prescribed here to aid your natural spider abilities without any means of piety invocations for most of them. Caster-oriented gods do this actually, and Okawaru just enhances your natural skills as a fighter but in this case with active invocations. Natural spider abilities only should cost MP / HP /food while other less mundane should cost piety. Then the flavour is kept.

[dpeg]

Roderic makes a good point. Since editing the forum posts with color is too much effort for me, I'll incorporate this when wikifying the spider god. Thanks for input!"

[King_jelly]

I love this idea, but the only thing I don't like is that this god makes youe species choice not matter... I guess except for aptitudes... but it also seems that once you choose to worship this god the only apts that matter are the non-melee once.... it seems like you're cornering the species choices for this god to be caster specific. Kinda like how Jiyva is really only usefull with Trolls and such....

Thoughts?

[crate]

Kinda like how Jiyva is really only usefull with Trolls and such....

Jiyva is very good for every race in the game.

[Roderic]

Aren't the apts and natural abilities kept after the transformation? Being a spider does not mean one has to be the same kind of spider. It would be good if different abilities could lead to real variations in the "spider play-style".

Edit: yeah, they are. The species choice matters at least in theory...

HOW BEING A SPIDER FOREVER EFFECTS DIFFERENT SPECIES

* Generally: treat as unlimited spider form.
Herbi|carni|saprovore and gourmand mutations become irrelevant.
Mutations suppressed in Spider Form remain suppressed (claws, scales, hooves, constricting body parts, resistances, etc.).
Spider Form replaces innate stealth bonuses, size, and speed.
Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form.
Aptitudes remain the same. (+10% failure rate of Spider Form stays)
* For specific species [for later]:
Merfolk, Octopodes lose ability to swim.
Tengu can still fly.
Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).

It seems to me that merfolk are the most perjudicated because they do not retain their gimmick. What about not fumbling or slowing just in shallow water because they still retain a natural affinity to water?

Draconians lose the breath weapon if they have got one after maturity ?

Probably nagas (not mentioned here) are also deprived of their gimmicks and replaced by spider-like ones but they are indeed the kind of species closer to spiders in some sense (stealth&poison) and the opposite in other (slow vs fast, +rP vs -rP), and they would not need to become spiders if they are snakes after all... unless for some convenience they want to become faster

[danr]

So along with spider form Ix provides a sex change assuming your character started male?

I think "spider-banging" (there's a new meme for you!) can be made no less offensive than many of the other things players do or witness in Crawl.

Other terrible things that players do or can do:
- Cover sentient beings with sticky flames
- Polymorph them into other creatures
- Enslave them.
- Enslave them and then backstab them
- Stab things in their sleep
- I could go on...

These aren't just murder, they are "murder most foul". While I agree with the point that these are things that most people wouldn't ever be tempted to do, while sexual assault is something that more people may fantasize about, "spider banging" really would be a bit different. Although as I think about it, it's just more like a drug rape than one done by physical force, so yeah maybe it is best avoided. If I had a 12-year old son, I would maybe feel a bit funny about him playing a game with this mechanic in it.

The proposal about arachnophobia summoning some spiders is an elegant solution.

[nicolae]

So along with spider form Ix provides a sex change assuming your character started male?

The analogy to the black widow spider might suggest that, but there are gods involved now, and the exact details of the mating act are Quite Mystical, Indeed.