Spider god


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Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 18:37

Spider god

Nicolae and I made a proposal for a spider god. This post has been edited, changes in blue, to reflect various comments. Afterwards, I will take it to the dev wiki.

Contents:
I. The appeal
II. Short version
III. Long version
IV. Priorities (skipped here)

I. The appeal

The core idea is to have a god who only cares for spiders. A niche deity, as players are concerned: you have to be in spider form. The gimmick: with the god, you become an actual spider (no turning back). The hope is that the god makes being a spider interesting. Further aims: different species are still different as permaspiders.
Note: This is not a temple god, so there is less concern for replayability and for power.

II. Short version

NAME: Ixhuachatetl the Weaver

PIETY GAIN
  • killing humanoids and half-humanoids (including angels and demons)
  • scaring off (half-)humanoids [Arachnophobia effect]
  • mating with other spiders

PIETY LOSS
  • over time
  • killing spiders (not when mating)

ABILITIES (more details below):
  • Permanent spider form. This entails: only jewellery slots, hence horrible AC; rP-; no wand use; 10% spell failure; tiny size, hence huge EV; speed; UC bonus; poisonous attacks.
  • Different feeding mechanic.
  • Web-Slinging (active, * piety).
  • Stabbing bonus (passive, * piety, better with more piety).
  • Arachnophobia (passive, ** piety).
  • Skulk (active, *** piety).
  • Spider Swarm (active, **** piety).
  • Descent (active, ***** piety).
  • Mate (one off altar effect, ****** piety).
  • Proposed, not much discussed: Reduce spellcasting penalty (passive, * piety, better with more piety)


ALTARS
  • altar produces level-appropriate spiders once (15-20 turns after sight)
    [needs a new, immature spider monster for early dungeon]
  • non-follower: altar disappears after 15-20 turns
  • follower: altar is permanent
  • guaranteed altars in Spider (if it exists) and D:6-13
  • altars can occur randomly in the dungeon, Spider branch and vaults

JOINING
  • spider form becomes permanent
  • melded equipment is unmelded and unworn
  • all spiders turn neutral (not other invertebrate monsters)
  • no more eating (in particular, permafood cannot be used anymore)
  • no eating (of permafood or chunks)
  • can use fangs to butcher corpses; chunks are wrapped in webs and dissolve over time; they can be quaffed after a while
  • these liquids can be drunk at any hunger level and don't go bad
  • diet mutations (herbivore etc.) are suppressed
  • form mutations (horns etc.) are suppressed
  • changing form (spell, bat form, porkalator etc.) impossible
  • 2nd title line changes to "Spider of Ixhuachatetl"
  • [For later: - Vampires retain alive-to-bloodless hunger mechanic]

* PIETY
  • Web-Slinging. "You can throw webs."
    Webs are quivered; fired with 'f'.
    Limited number of uses; cap is 5 times piety *.
    Slow regeneration: "spin" status.
    Work like thrown net on monster. Can be used to form bridges.
  • Stabbing bonus (as if you were wielding a non-blade weapon).
    "You are better at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."

** PIETY
  • Arachnophobia. (Passive) "You terrify humanoid creatures."
    Chance to affect (half-)humanoids only depends on piety and Inv (not
    on monster), and caps at 33%.
    Full xp and piety.
    Affected humanoids flee (a la Elyvilon).
  • (Passive) "Your natural toxins are more potent."
    Bite can inflict more status effects. More effects with piety:
    ** poison, poison with sickness, confusion
    *** gain: poison with confusion (tarantella), sleep
    **** gain: strong poison (redback), poison with sleep, paralysis
    ***** gain: curare, poison with paralysis, strong poison with confusion

*** PIETY
  • Skulk. "You can sneak past unaware enemies."
    Activated with nominal piety cost. When active, can walk through helpless/unaware monsters at high piety cost.
    Creatures already aware may lose track.
    Duration depends on Inv (max 20 turns).
    Skulk ends prematurely when not moving or waiting. (Can always attack with Ctrl+direction.)
  • Better stabbing bonus (as if wielding long blade).
    "You are skilled at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."

**** PIETY
  • Spider Swarm. "You can summon swarms of tiny spiders."
    The floor in sight is covered with spiderlets (console: 's' in god colour) which crawl onto nearby enemies. Spiderlets don't take up space (they are an effect rather than monsters).
    Spiderlets on a monster do damage (ignore AC), may poison, can spread from enemy to enemy (a la sticky flame on sheep), may distract target (useful for stab and skulk).
    Limited use (at start: 5-10). Needs mating to replenish.

***** PIETY
  • Descent. "You can instantly descend closer to Ixhuachatetl."
    Instant escape hatch to first unexplored level with branch.
    High piety cost.
  • Best stabbing bonus (as if wielding non-dagger short blade).
    "You are a master at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."

****** PIETY
  • Mate. "You can perform a mating ritual." 'p'ray at altar. Single use.
    Replenishes uses for spider swarm.
    Allows mating with spider monsters (even at <****** piety).
    Arachnophobic humanoids may be turned into spiders (you can mate with).

Mating spiders: walk into neutral spider. Spider is devoured; an altar appears at its place, which will eventually produce spider (you cannot mate with).
Replenishes uses for spider swarm. Has cooldown.
Cannot mate with immature spiders (from altars) and with Spider spiders.

WRATH, ABANDONING
  • You remain a spider even if you desert the god.
  • You lose all divine benefits.
  • Spiders swarms are sent after you.

HOW BEING A SPIDER FOREVER EFFECTS DIFFERENT SPECIES
  • Generally: treat as unlimited spider form.
    Herbi|carni|saprovore and gourmand mutations become irrelevant.
    Mutations suppressed in Spider Form remain suppressed (claws, scales, hooves, constricting body parts, resistances, etc.).
    Spider Form replaces innate stealth bonuses, size, and speed.
    Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form.
    Aptitudes remain the same. (+10% failure rate of Spider Form stays)
  • For specific species [for later]:
    Merfolk, Octopodes lose ability to swim. Tengu can still fly.
    Octopodes keep their rings (as in Spider Form).
    Vampires, Demonspawn are unholy for holy wrath. (Spider Form effects)
    Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.
    Vampires still retain their unique feeding system.
    Minotaurs lose retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form but gain retaliatory bite (standard poison only).
Last edited by dpeg on Friday, 5th October 2012, 23:40, edited 4 times in total.

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 18:48

Re: Spider god

III. Long version

Ixhuachatetl the Weaver

In the beginning, Ixhuachatetl, the Spider-God and Weaver of All Things, spun the earth, and lurked in the center of it, as mortal spiders do in their own webs. Next, Ixhuachatetl desired to create life, and began to weave the perfect form of the spider. But as Ixhuachutetl tried to weave the divine eight-limbed form, it fell apart into two hideous four-limbed creatures -- the first humans, male and female. Ixhuachatetl cast out the human abominations to the surface of the Earth. There, the humans multiplied and diversified and cross-bred, filling the world with the humanoid form that had so displeased the Spider-God. Ixhuachatetl now realizes that humans should not have been cast out, but instead destroyed utterly. The spider followers of Ixhuachatetl are tasked with eradicating their god's mistake, while their god lurks below in the center of the Earth, watching and waiting for spiders to claim their rightful dominion.

PIETY GAIN
Ixhuachatetl hates humanoids, and gives piety for killing them. This includes half-humanoids, such as merfolk, centaurs, and nagas. Demons and angels who are more-or-less humanoid also count. Piety is also gained when a humanoid is scared off by the Arachnophobia passive effect. Mating with other spiders also provides piety.

Arachne, the half-human, half-spider, poses a bit of a strange edge case. A proposed addition to her background: Ixhuachatetl finds her abominable for being half-human, but leaves her alone because she's half-spider and has sworn to serve him. Ixhuachatetl tolerates her, but doesn't really care too much about her. She turns neutral like other spiders and isn't affected by Arachnophobia, but can't be mated with and if you kill her you still get piety. (Ixhuachatetl promised not to kill her but is happy to let the player deal with her.)

JOINING
The only way to join the religion is to worship at one of Ixhuachatetl's altars of living spiders, while in Spider Form. The spider altars do not occur in the Temple, only as random altars. At least one is guaranteed in the Spider's Nest, if it generates. A second is guaranteed between D:6 and D:13, like overflow altars.

15-20 turns after the player first sees a spider altar, if the player doesn't follow Ixhuachatetl by that point, the altar will fall apart into spiders. If the player worships Ixhuachatetl at the time the altar is supposed to fall apart, it will still produce some spiders (one-time, not continuously), but the altar will remain. The type of spiders will be based on dungeon level. Use the base spider monsters for the immature spiders on early dungeon levels.

Many comments here, expressing dislike of needing the spell. Potential modifications:
  • The god transforms you into a spider when you first pray at the altar.
  • As above, but you get a starting piety bonus if you show up in spider form.
  • Altar vaults can have books with (only) the Spider Form spell.


CONDUCTS
Ixhuachatetl requires all worshippers to be spiders, all the time.
Ixhuachatetl also forbids the eating of permafood, instead preferring followers to eat in the proper spider manner -- by dissolving their prey into fluids.

POWERS AND ABILITIES

0 Zero stars:
  • (Passive) Upon joining, Ixhuachatetl makes your Spider Form permanent. Your species name, when used in the character display, skill titles, and monster speech, is changed to "Spider" instead of what your original species was. The divine power of Ixhuachatetl makes your form immutable. This makes you immune to Porkolator, but you can't use any form-changing Transmutations, Bat Form, or the Metamorphosis card. (This also serves as a very limited form of mutation resistance, since if you get a mutation suppressed by Spider Form, it won't matter.)
  • (Passive) Upon joining, any equipment melded into your body is unmelded and unworn. ("Your equipment is pushed from your body!") This way, the player can drop the now-useless armor and weapons.
  • (Passive) All spiders turn neutral. Only spiders, though. Ants, scorpions, moths, centipedes, and so on, remain hostile, even if they're eligible to be generated in Spider's Nest. While these other creatures don't offend Ixhuachatetl the way humanoids do, they're still not spiders. Arachne the half-spider unique does turn neutral.
  • (Passive) "You prepare your prey for eating within webs."
    You can use your fangs to "butcher" corpses. The chunks are wrapped in webbing along with digestive fluids, and dissolve over time. Eventually, they are ready to be quaffed, like a potion. You can't drink a webbed chunk until it's finished dissolving into a liquid chunk. Spider players can drink these liquid chunks at any hunger level, as long as they're sufficiently dissolved. Liquid chunks never go bad. The nutrition from dissolved chunks, and ability to eat them, aren't affected by being a herbivore, carnivore, or saprovore, so Spriggans in service to Ixhuachatetl can slurp up dissolved flesh just like a Kobold could.
    Vampires retain the alive-to-bloodless hunger mechanic. However, they can drink dissolved chunks, while retaining the ability to drink from corpses on the ground, and can drink even if those corpses or chunks are from a bloodless creature, like insects.
    Probably better to use one of these instead (players stockpiling permafood is bad; players preserving natural monsters for later good use is even worse):
    • Fluids are not permanent, but perishable, similar to Vampires' blood potions. As the arachnophobia effect will create spiders at high piety levels (thus providing nutrition), branches without natural monsters are not an obstacle food-wise.
    • Keep it as permafood but with a piety cost.

* One star:
  • Web-Slinging. "You can throw webs."
    You learn the ability to fire webs. Webs are quivered like ammunition, and fired using "f", since you can't fire anything else anyway. Webs regenerate slowly over time, and while the player is at less than full web capacity, their metabolism goes faster, since they're burning energy making webs. The player starts with a maximum of 5 webs. The cap is increased by 5 for each star of piety, so a ****** spider can carry 30 webs. Webs have two uses. First, they can be used to trap enemies, like a throwing net.
    Secondly, spider players can use webs to get across water and lava. Combined with clinging, this allows spider players more options in getting past obstacles. A web is supported, and can support the player, if ends on floor and (orthogonally) touches a wall, statue or tree. The silk needed for the bridge-webs is of the supporting type: it does not hinder monsters in any way. If a web over deep water or lava suddenly loses support (if a wall is dug out), then the web falls into the deep water or lava, possibly with the player on it, similar to what happens if you're clinging to a wall that gets dug out.
  • (Passive) "You are better at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."
    You gain stabbing bonuses from attacking with your fangs as if you were wielding a non-blade weapon.

** Two stars:
  • Arachnophobia. (Passive) "You terrify humanoid creatures."
    When a humanoid sees you, there is a chance that the humanoid will be terrified and flee (pacification style: flee to next exit and leave). Fleeing humanoids will head for the stairs, like with Elyvilon's Pacification ability. When a humanoid is terrified, you gain full XP and piety. If you chase them down and kill them you don't get any extra, though you do get loot and food. The chance of terror is solely based on Invocations and piety, and is about 33% at maximum. This effect applies to any humanoid you get piety for killing, except for Arachne -- it's quite possible for a demon or angel to end up terrified by a tiny spider. (Perhaps deep down, they know who the true creator of the universe is, and what it thinks of them...)
    This still seems good to me, I don't think it would be unfun to conquer monsters that way. I am very confident that an active ability would not work (less theme, hard to make useable etc. -- this is quite similar to weapon moves). The 33% maximum chance is probably too large, though.
    However, this is related both to food (in foodless branches, from demons turned spiders), and to mating (nutrition would come from consuming those demon-turned-spiders after mating). One suggestion in this context: when arachnophobia kicks in after mating with the god, the deity sends some spiders. (Theme rationale: you are fighting evil in a barren place, and the deity provides support.)
  • (Passive) "Your natural toxins are more potent."
    Your bite is capable of inflicting other status effects besides simply poison. New effects are gained with increasing piety. Each bite has an equal chance to inflict whatever toxins are available at that piety level.
    At 2 stars, options are: poison, poison with sickness, confusion
    At 3 stars, gain: poison with confusion (like a tarantella), sleep
    At 4 stars, gain: strong poison (like a redback, which isn't fully resisted by rPois), poison with sleep, paralysis
    At 5 stars, gain: curare, poison with paralysis, strong poison with confusion

*** Three stars:
  • Skulk. "You can sneak past unaware enemies."
    While Skulk is activated, you can move through any monster that is helpless or unaware of you. Similar to Yred's Injury Mirror, there is a small piety cost for activating it, and another piety cost incurred for every monster you walk through. There is a chance, based on Invocations, that creatures who are already aware of you may suddenly lose your trail when Skulk is activated, though you will still need decent Stealth to keep them from noticing you again immediately. The duration of Skulk increases with Invocations, and maxes out at about 20 turns, but will end prematurely if you do anything to call attention to yourself -- make noise, cast a spell, use an ability, or attack (which you can still do with Ctrl+direction).
  • (Passive) "You are skilled at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."
    Your stabbing bonus when using your fangs is improved, to what it would be if you were wielding a long blade.

**** Four stars:
  • Spider Swarm. "You can summon swarms of tiny spiders."
    The floor is covered with tiny spiderlets, which crawl onto enemies. (The spiderlets crawling all over the floor are not actually monsters, they're a visual effect to indicate to console players what's going on -- little "s" in the god's color, a color unused by real spiders.
    Mechanics-wise, it's more of a debuff which effects everyone in your LoS.) The spiderlets do damage over time, with a chance to poison the target. This damage ignores AC, since the spiderlets can crawl under armor or into weak spots like eyes. They spread from enemy to enemy, like how sticky flame spreads between sheep. Spiderlets can't live inside a damaging cloud (flame, freezing cloud, miasma, poison, etc.) and will not jump onto enemies standing in such clouds, and they will die if the enemy they're on moves into one. Enemies afflicted with spiderlets will be distracted, and can be stabbed or Skulked through. (Ideally, Spider Swarm followed by Skulk would be a useful method for getting out of a clump of enemies.) After a few turns, the swarm ends and the spiderlets disappear.
    Invocations increases the duration and damage of the spiderlets. Spider Swarm starts with limited uses, only 5-10. The only way to replenish your supply of spiderlets is to mate with spiders, so get to six stars as soon as possible. Performing the mating ritual with Ixhuachatetl will provide a large number of uses (10 or so), and mating with other spiders afterward will provide 1d3.

***** Five stars:
  • Descent. "You can instantly descend closer to Ixhuachatetl."
    [This presumes that Ixhuachatetl resides deep down, deeper than Zot.]
    Functions like an instant escape hatch. High piety cost. You're dropped down to the first unexplored level in your current branch. The player will be told what level they will be dropped to, and asked if they really want to continue. If there are no more unexplored levels in the current branch, this ability can't be used, but you don't use up the cost.
  • (Passive) "You are a master at using your spider fangs against helpless prey."
    Your stabbing bonus with your fangs is improved more, to what it would be if you were wielding a non-dagger short blade.

****** Six stars:
  • Mate. "You can perform a mating ritual."
    Many spiders have bizarre mating rituals. Many gods have tales of strange couplings with mortals. Ixhuachatatl, being both a god and a spider, has both. At six stars, you can visit an altar to Ixhuachatetl and (p)ray. The player symbolically mates with Ixhuachatetl -- there's no need to consider the details.
    "You perform the ancient spider mating ritual with Ixhuachatetl. Fortunately, neither of you is devoured."
    This will greatly replenish the player's uses of Spider Swarm, but there are two other main effects to mating with Ixhuachatetl.

    The first is that, afterwards, you can mate with other spiders you encounter, by walking into a neutral spider. You are prompted if you really want to mate (and if you don't, prompted if you really want to attack, as usual when moving onto neutral monsters.) It costs some food and also takes three turns, like Recite, and there is also a cooldown before you can use it again, and you are Exhausted. When the act is finished, you eat the other spider black-widow style, killing it and gaining some nutrition, and get a good chunk of piety. An altar is created where the spider died. This altar will eventually produce spiders, like the pre-existing ones do, though altars created by mating will only produce immature spiders. In addition, you gain 1d3 more uses of the Spider Swarm ability. You can't mate with immature spiders, nor can you mate with spiders in the Spider's Nest -- that branch is sacred to Ixhuachatetl, like a temple, and like the vestal virgins of ancient Rome, they must remain pure for their god.

    The second effect is that Ixhuachatetl will occasionally provide spiders for the player: When a humanoid is scared by the Arachnophobia effect, Ixhuachatetl may step in and decide that the humanoid needs a new form, and change the humanoid into a spider. Since some demons still count as humanoid, this means the player can still access spiders in demon-filled branches. Note that the player-spider can mate with the humanoid-turned-spider, an unpleasant end for an arachnophobe.

    Once the player has mated with Ixhuachatetl, these two effects persist even if the player's piety drops below six stars.

The idea of mating caused a controversy. I have been thinking about this for a while, and talked to people. Potential modifications:
  • Do nothing. (Serious proposal, not for mocking.) I accept the fact that some players will giggle over "spider-banging Margery" and post their achievement in ##crawl. However, I consider that as actual role-playing. Would you do that with a terrified humanoid? Would you do it with Margery? Would you brag about it? If yes to all, what does it say about you?
  • Keep the concept but simply prevent uniques from being turned into spiders. So you could still arachnophobic Rupert and Louise, but they would never become spiders. (Uniques are the only monsters with a gender and where gender matters, because of the "a wolf spider named Sigmund", so that should remove the moral tension.)
  • Keep mating with the god and with spiders, and keep arachnophobia (each of these are good for theme and gameplay) but do not occasionally turn terrified humans into spiders. (This is the "correct" solution. It avoids the contentious point, but weakens the theme a little bit, at least in my eyes.)
I don't believe a number of claims made: the "ASCII sex" would be a single message line "You mate with the [wolf|trapdoor|whatever] spider." Nobody would turn to Crawl for the sexual content and I don't think anyone can call that "explicit". Themewise, I am fond of the triage among mating, gods and spiders. There's content between any two of the three, and having it in a roguelike (as a mechanic! -- no pictures, almost no words) looks interesting to me.
I understand that some (perhaps many) players feel bad about the moral implications of the concept, and I take that serious.


WRATH
Ixhuachatetl will send swarms of spiders after you, poison you, and drag you down closer to itself (i.e. involuntary instahatch). Also, even after renouncing Ixhuachatetl, you remain permanently in Spider Form, but you lose all the divine benefits -- including webs, enhanced poisons, stabbing bonuses, neutral spiders, and the ability to butcher corpses (though you are once again allowed to eat permafood). This is what happens when you mess around with spider gods. While in perma-Spider Form, the good gods will not accept you, nor will Beogh, even if you used to be a Hill Orc. Fedhas will not accept spider followers who used to be Vampires.
The proposed concept has its merits, but a milder version would also work: go back to original species once wrath runs out.

HOW BEING A SPIDER FOREVER EFFECTS DIFFERENT SPECIES
Generally: Because of the unique way spider players feed, species distinctions involving herbivore, carnivore, saprovore, and gourmand mutations become irrelevant. Mutations which are suppressed in Spider Form remain suppressed, so claws, scales, hooves, constricting body parts, resistances, and so on remain unusable.
Spider Form replaces innate stealth bonuses, size, and speed. Healing rates, metabolism, see invisible, innate magic resistance, and other intrinsics are retained in Spider Form. Aptitudes remain the same, though weapons, armour, and shield aptitudes become irrelevant. Since Ixhuachatetl does nothing to mitigate the +10% failure rate of Spider Form, spellcasting is a less attractive, but still usable, option.

For specific species: Merfolk and Octopodes lose the ability to swim. However, Tengu can still fly. Vampires and Demonspawn still count as unholy creatures when attacked by holy wrath effects. (These effects are consistent with existing Spider Form.) Octopode rings beyond the first two will meld in Spider Form, and will be forced out with other equipment upon joining the religion. Felids still retain the extra-life mechanic.

Vampires still retain their unique feeding system, shifting back and forth between a living spider and an undead one. When Thirsty or below, Vampire spiders still gain the HP and nutrition bonus when stabbing an enemy they can drain (which includes insects, now). Sufficiently dead vampire-spiders (Thirsty or more) replace Spider Form's innate poison vulnerability with poison resistance -- however, when this happens, their bodies can no longer produce poisons, and their bites inflict no toxic effects. Vampire-spiders who are thirsty or below also cannot mate with other spiders (though they can still mate with Ixhuachatetl -- gods have more versatility in such matters.) A Vampire-spider who is completely bloodless will no longer regenerate new webs.
Minotaurs normally lose their retaliatory headbutt in Spider Form. However, under Ixhuachatetl's guidance, they learn to use their new spider bodies to channel their innate rage. Minotaur-spiders who worship Ixhuachatetl reflexively bite those who attack them in melee. This bite will only inflict standard poison, even if the player has improved venom from two stars of piety. This ability is lost if Ixhuachatetl is renounced, however.

Comments I lack energy to put elsewhere:
  • evilmike: Turning arachnophobic monsters into spiders is too close to Jiyva's slimify.
  • evilmike: Spiders should not be neutral (rather, they should be hostile as with Beogh): unfun exploration in Spider.
    blackcustard: simply changing the spider player vs spider monster combat messages could allow to get away with hostile spiders and keep the theme.
  • evilmike: Players should not be able to detect altars to the spider god in advance (assuming that spider god altars stay temporary and you have to be in spider form for joining the cult).
  • galehar: Spider swarm problematic (irresistible, AC ignoring, LOS affecting damage over time, hence hard to balance). Suggested replacement:
    Spider Call: Fill the level with neutral monsters, effective and dangerous. Spiders would crawl out of the ground and walls, coming from everywhere. That's seem more fun the a LOS damage-over-time debuff. And can also be used to replenish food stocks in corpseless branches.
Last edited by dpeg on Friday, 5th October 2012, 23:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 18:52

Re: Spider god

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 19:03

Re: Spider god

Casually I was thinking this morning about some traits for a spider god. I don't wanna mess the OP with more ideas at this moment, but I just want to point out that the complete spider form seems quite a radical change and I was considering a progressive one (i.e you become a spider as piety grows, developing traits and growing new extremities). Nonetheless, the spider god concept is lovable and worthy; the myth is very well designed. So basically this god allows a species change at some point of the game.

What about octopodes? They are not humanoids but 8-legged ones... are they hated or they don't count at all ?
Last edited by Roderic on Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 19:04

Re: Spider god

Roderic: Octopodes don't matter: they give no piety when killing, nor do they lose piety.
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 19:10

Re: Spider god

The perma-form even after renouncing the cult is a bit harsh... it does not allow any strategic god change, or at least I can't figure out, although it would be funny to see a Trogite spider.

About spiderlets and immature spiders: there are only two available colours: dark blue and dark grey, the rest are currently used in console. An third option is to change cockroaches from brown s to brown B, they are beetles after all, leaving brown unused.
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 20:36

Re: Spider god

I would much prefer only having the lower half be a spider instead of the whole body, similar to Arachne. Have them prevent boots, give you rPois-, worse spellcasting, allow you to cling, higher EV, and spider movement speed. This allows the god to have broader appeal instead of just being felid 2.0 :evil: .

all spiders turn neutral (not other invertebrate monsters)

These are spiders, not slimes! AFAIK spiders kill and eat each other when given the chance. Either way, we already have 2 branches that are trivial with the right god, do we really need a third?

can use fangs to butcher corpses; chunks are wrapped in webs and dissolve over time; they can be quaffed after a while
these liquids can be drunk at any hunger level and don't go bad

Seems hard to balance when taking extended into consideration. If butchering every corpse allows you to have enough food for 15 runes then that means there's essentially no hunger clock for 3 runes. Also, this is quite similar to Jiyva in that you'll always be engorged.

Arachnophobia. (Passive) "You terrify humanoid creatures."

Defeating people without doing anything isn't very fun or interesting, but I really like the idea of a scare ability. Maybe cause fear scrolls could be buffed with this god to give an "arachnophobia" effect? Also, heart attacks might be more fun than running away, hehe.

Mate. "You can perform a mating ritual."

I can't really reason about this ability without playing it first, but I'm skeptical. What's wrong with having spider swarm cost piety?

Also, even after renouncing Ixhuachatetl, you remain permanently in Spider Form

Have spider form end after Ixhua forgives you.
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 21:00

Re: Spider god

Sounds like an Og/Tr Tm would be dreamy with this god. Huge HP + EV! Feeding might be an issue with troll metabolism, though... :/
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612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 21:14

Re: Spider god

Permaspider wrath looks awesome both in concept and in gameplay implications - that's one from the Crawk design rulebook for the would-be idea-flingers watching at home. Maybe I'd make it happen only if the player has already 'mated' with Ixwhatsitsname, but that's it.

edit: nobody saw anything
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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 22:21

Re: Spider god

Roderic wrote:Casually I was thinking this morning about some traits for a spider god. I don't wanna mess the OP with more ideas at this moment, but I just want to point out that the complete spider form seems quite a radical change and I was considering a progressive one (i.e you become a spider as piety grows, developing traits and growing new extremities).

The entire idea of the spider god in the first place was to have a deity that only accepts players who've transformed their form, and then keeping that form permanently while worshipping the god. That idea has been around for a while, long before I even got involved, and that's not likely to change.

Roderic wrote:The perma-form even after renouncing the cult is a bit harsh... it does not allow any strategic god change, or at least I can't figure out, although it would be funny to see a Trogite spider.

Enforcing permaspider was to discourage players from just ditching the god after they'd snagged a few runes or went through Spider's Nest. We figured it was okay to try novel, bizarre mechanics for Ix -- it was a novel, bizarre concept since the beginning.

Also, the idea of players deliberately renouncing Spidergod in order to try playing as a spider of Fedhas or Trog or whatever came up during discussion. We didn't think it should be a main concern, but I liked the idea of it being a strange challenge conduct.

pubby wrote:This allows the god to have broader appeal instead of just being felid 2.0 :evil: .

We tried to ensure that someone might find Spidergod appealing as something other than another god to cross off the list of "Gods I've Won With". But in the end it's still a pretty out-there niche concept, and both of us were okay with the idea that most players would want to play an easier and more straightforward god.

These are spiders, not slimes! AFAIK spiders kill and eat each other when given the chance. Either way, we already have 2 branches that are trivial with the right god, do we really need a third?

We did take this into consideration. We both thought that the spider god should make Spider's Nest easier somehow, because, well, Duh. But we didn't want to go ahead and simply make the whole branch neutral like Jiyva does. To that end, not everything in the Spider's Nest will be neutralized -- ghost moths, scorpions, wasps, etc. You can't use the mating ability with spiders in the Nest either, so you can't stock up on Spider Swarms. Plus, the permaspider wrath ensures that you can't just ditch Ix once you get the gossamer rune -- having an easier Spider's Nest comes at the cost of being a spider forever.

Defeating people without doing anything isn't very fun or interesting, but I really like the idea of a scare ability. Maybe cause fear scrolls could be buffed with this god to give an "arachnophobia" effect? Also, heart attacks might be more fun than running away, hehe.

Looking over the email conversation again, we never even thought about Arachnophobia being an active ability. If it were changed to one, I'm thinking that it should still cause a fleeing effect rather than any damage, though. Gameplaywise, it's a way for the player to get away from fights they might not want to get into -- after all, even with the help of Ix, you're still very squishy.

I can't really reason about this ability without playing it first, but I'm skeptical. What's wrong with having spider swarm cost piety?

Well, nothing, Spider Swarm using piety was the original idea. Both Spider Swarm and some idea of mating rituals were among the first ideas we came up with, and they didn't get tied together until later in the brainstorming process. We went with tying uses of Spider Swarm into mating for theme reasons, because it's a novel mechanic, to encourage more strategic early use of Spider Swarm, and to encourage getting to ****** as fast as possible.

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 22:32

Re: Spider god

Regarding perma-spider and spiders in Spider: It is really hard to find some flavour that allows these to kill each other. Ixy is an underprivileged god anyway (in-game, not power-wise: no access to the Temple, non-permanent altars, probably not taken serious by any other deity). Why would such a god allow that his followers kill his single breed? Loss of spiders during mating: that's progress. Loss of spiders for sport or greed: regress in Ixy's many eyes.
I agree that, as a game-mechanic, neutral spiders are not overly exciting. But we didn't find something better, and it's not too bad, either.

ebarrett's idea (permaspider beyond wrath only for mating characters) is interesting. However, I'd start with the seemingly less forgiving original proposal -- don't want to even vaguely hint at the idea that gaming Ixy (go to ***** piety, then abandon) is a good option.

Finally, note that the non-Temple gods can afford to leave the beaten track. If following Ixy is a challenge, or if Ixy games feel more same-y (because you will be using stealth, stabbing and unarmed combat, unless you intentionally pull some tricks), that's a lot more tolerable than for ecumenical deities. (We did try to avoid both of these, just saying.)
Last edited by dpeg on Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 23:13

Re: Spider god

This is the most exciting god proposal I've seen in some time, but I don't like that I would have to find+learn+cast the spell Spider Form in order to join. It sounds like it would be just a tedious hurdle, and I don't see what purpose it would serve besides flavor and making the god even harder to join.

It seems like Ixy would be perfectly happy to transform you into a spider herself.

Edit: And also, I love that this suggestion is also a totally canon creation story for the Crawl universe!
Last edited by ElectricAlbatross on Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 23:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 14th August 2012, 23:19

Re: Spider god

Yeah, the Spider Form requirement to join the religion is unnecessary.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 00:18

Re: Spider god

I'd hate to drop the idea of purity. Only spiders should be able to take on Ixy.

However, I just did a wizmode test, and here are my findings: A level 9 HuFi with unmodified Int and no body armour has the following chances of memorizing/casting Spider Form:

  Code:
               Int 8    Int 11   Int 14
unsupported:   100%      99%      99%
wizardry:       93%      88%      83%
wizardry x2:    83%      78%      71%
brilliance:     41%      34%      28%


As you can see, a single potion of brilliance will do the trick -- investing in Int or using Wizardry helps a bit, but not much.
Therefore, the real problem is finding a book. And I'd much rather make vaults which contain books like "Spider Superiority", "The Silk Thread" etc. rather than open Ixy for humanoids.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 01:46

Re: Spider god

I like the idea of a spider altar vault with a Spider Form spellbook in it. I like imagining a player frantically running to the book, trying to memorize it, and trying to cast it over and over, hoping to get into spider form before the altar vanishes. Maybe the early dungeon vaults could be weighted to tend to have ones with Spider Form books in them?

Or possibly, just start as a Transmuter.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 02:05

Re: Spider god

Uhh… I don't think it's a good idea to introduce an explicit 'mating' mechanic into the game. Crawl characters don't have genders, don't excrete waste, and don't get malnutrition from eating exclusively raw meat. Explicit ASCII sex scenes are probably not the sort of verisimilitude that it needs.

Back to the actual mechanics, I don't think permafooding chunks is a good idea, even if regular permafood is no longer useful. If a player can stockpile permafood, they will, and in the proposed case every single corpse generated in the entire game can be converted to spider-permafood. It might be better to force the player to eat off of food that is still fighting back, and then simply add corporeal undead and demons to the list of food sources. Live food is very flavorful, assuming moans of pain and terror count as a flavor.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 02:06

Re: Spider god

KoboldLord wrote:Explicit ASCII sex scenes are probably not the sort of verisimilitude that it needs.


There's no need for it to be any more explicit than the foocubi in Nethack. Less explicit, even, since you don't have to take off your clothes and the spiders don't talk to you.

Edit: If the mechanic really bothers people that much, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to take it out, redo Spider Swarm to use piety, etc. I'm not just convinced yet that it's really that much worse than what you'd find in Greek mythology, or other video games.

Back to the actual mechanics, I don't think permafooding chunks is a good idea, even if regular permafood is no longer useful. If a player can stockpile permafood, they will, and in the proposed case every single corpse generated in the entire game can be converted to spider-permafood. It might be better to force the player to eat off of food that is still fighting back, and then simply add corporeal undead and demons to the list of food sources. Live food is very flavorful, assuming moans of pain and terror count as a flavor.


The permafood thing is a common point. One idea that I had early on was getting nutrition from attacking webbed monsters with your fangs, perhaps we could go back to that. If corporeal undead and demons count as food sources that would help alleviate some of the issues that inspired perma liquid chunks.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 02:45

Re: Spider god

I think it's a bit weird that you have to:
1. memorize and use a SPELL even if you aren't a caster in order to join Ixy,
2. suffer the 10% SPELLCASTING PENALTY after you join Ixy.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 03:40

Re: Spider god

I've read about the spider god for a long time on the dev wiki. This is the most polished proposal for it so far. I never liked the idea of a gradual change. I have a few questions:

What happens to breath weapons?
How will draconian colors be treated? Will all of the traits scales etc. be carried over? Can a grey spider walk through water?
Could a demonspawn get a mutation that is suppressed by the form after joining?
Regarding felids: can a spider really have 9 lives?

Taking away a lot of the bonuses that certain classes pretty much shoehorn species like trolls and ogres, who have that huge HP bonus and aren't giving away things like spriggan speed (and HP) or making certain unique traits redundant like gourmand, into worshipers. I wouldn't play this god as a spriggan. Who would?
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 03:58

Re: Spider god

twelwe wrote:I've read about the spider god for a long time on the dev wiki. This is the most polished proposal for it so far. I never liked the idea of a gradual change. I have a few questions:

What happens to breath weapons?
How will draconian colors be treated? Will all of the traits scales etc. be carried over? Can a grey spider walk through water?


The basic idea was that any mutation that is suppressed by Spider Form would be suppressed under Spidergod. I'm not sure which draconian mutations remain unsuppressed, if any. Breath weapons are probably out.

We spent a while trying to find ways to retain characteristics of the original species, so that there would still be some variety and so that species selection would have a little more impact than simply "which species will get me to Spider Form most quickly". Aptitudes remain as-is, but there was a lot of discussion on mutations. Retaining Spider Form suppression seemed easiest and most fitting the theme.

Could a demonspawn get a mutation that is suppressed by the form after joining?


We didn't think about whether suppressed demonspawn mutations should be vetoed. Good question.

Regarding felids: can a spider really have 9 lives?


Whatever eldritch pact granted felids their multiple lives presumably still holds if they're a spider.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 05:46

Re: Spider god

Not that this will ever come up, but can hill orcs go from Ix to Beogh despite being permaspidered?
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 10:07

Re: Spider god

This... sounds awesome! 7/8 thumbs up.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 10:28

Re: Spider god

I hadn't read the requirement of having learned spiderform and casting it . For the very ephemeral nature of altars is a pain in the ass if you've no success before they vanish.
As far as I remember I've had very few chances of learning spiderform aside from starting as Tm. I support vaults with the book containing the spell or with a magic effect (a special magic potion/magic fog) with transmutes the player temporally to be able to join the god.

Arachnophobia ability may cause several effects: simple fear as scrolls do, paralysis by panic, fear + leaving the weapon behind when running away, yelling/shouting + fear

I support the idea of neutral spiders. Would the altar in Spider be at the beginning to trivialize the branch or in the middle of the quest ?

The whole concept has a positive thing: permits to play with a new insectoid species without having to include it as a starting race. Besides, it has a good combination of stealth, mobility, summons and poisoning, topics that not many gods provide.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 10:44

Re: Spider god

defen wrote:Not that this will ever come up, but can hill orcs go from Ix to Beogh despite being permaspidered?


Two options: the simple one is not to allow it. The second one would be that Beogh can remove the transformation, although it can be somewhat abusable if your orc decides to switch later to another god and use Beogh as a bridge.

The thing becomes even more complicated if a repentant spider decides to join Jiyva. How will the mutations work on a spider form ? It seems complicated to code for a very marginal god switch. The best option is not to allow it. Another option would be to keep some abilities of Jiyva cult but without mutations (the best part is removed in this case...) or simply to remove the transformation (Jiyva is the god of mutations and shape changes after all); again this last option can convert Jiyva in a bridge god to remove your spiderform. Well, I can be feasible if you want to deal with wraths.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 11:48

Re: Spider god

Regarding the eating mechanic: this is to add spider flavour. It's not necessary to have the chunk-potions last forever; they could disappear like Vampire's blood bottles.

Regarding mating: It's a bit risque, but I had hoped that the PMRC doesn't play Crawl. (Another feature that I thought might cause raised eyebrows was Beogh's water walking, but then everyone was fine with it.) There won't be any ascii sex: You get messages "You mate with the tarantella. [...] The tarantella dies. You feel exhausted." (and there won't be any Nethack-style "You feel good enough to do it again." -- I don't like that).
Crawl's playerbase is quite young (or otherwise immature :), as are certain developers), so there will be an audience who's very happy to read the following lines on ##crawl:
  Code:
10:30 < Gretell> dpeg (L21 Spider MiGl) makes Boris runs away, screaming like a frightened chicken.
11:41 < Gretell> jpeg (L21 Spider KoTm) mates with and consumes Nikola the spider.

Arachnophobic monsters, especially uniques, should count as killed, for all purposes: bots, kill lists, tournaments. To reduce message spam, the fate of an spider-frightened monster should be only announced when one of the following happens: (1) It leaves the level (10:30 message above), (2) it is ordinarily killed (standard message), (3) mating and eating (11:41 message).

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 13:35

Re: Spider god

Neat. :)

The only weak parts of the proposal are IMO the spider form requirement and the permafood from corpses mechanic. Flavor is great, and the god sounds quite interesting to play. A short recap of spider form's limitations (only having jewellery slots, horrible AC as a consequence, rP-, no wands, 10% spell failure) and bonuses (tiny tiny size for huge EV, speed, unarmed damage bonus, poisonous attacks) should be added to the first or second post in my opinion.

The spider form requirement can be alleviated by adding books to some altar vaults, but I'm not sure making spider form much more common in the early game would be a good idea. Also if you find the spider branch (50% of games) you know you can switch later in the game. Midgame god switches are currently horrible, however.

I believe the most elegant solution to the permafood problem would be attaching a small piety cost to the permafood creation. This would prevent players from turning every single corpse into permafood while keeping the flavor.

One final worry: this sounds quite similar to felids, which are not that awesome because of their strongly limited playing style. It sounds fun, but who knows how it will turn out...
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 13:42

Re: Spider god

Roderic wrote:The perma-form even after renouncing the cult is a bit harsh...

It's intriguing, but worth a try IMO. I'm a bit worried about complications with some god switches as noted by defen and Roderic. If it doesn't work out, turning back after the wrath is a simple solution.

dpeg wrote:I'd hate to drop the idea of purity. Only spiders should be able to take on Ixy.

If there's an early altar guaranteed, it really means most spiders will be Tm. Also, once you've joined, you can destroy your book since it won't be of any use. Having altars with a book could help. There was also talk about changing or removing memorisation failure, but that's another topic.

twelwe wrote:Taking away a lot of the bonuses that certain classes pretty much shoehorn species like trolls and ogres, who have that huge HP bonus and aren't giving away things like spriggan speed (and HP) or making certain unique traits redundant like gourmand, into worshipers. I wouldn't play this god as a spriggan. Who would?

Would you worship Chei instead? Or Trog as a DE? Gods being better for some species than for other isn't new, it's perfectly fine. This would certainly be the case for Ix. If it's too much, it can be balanced somehow. Maybe the robust mutation can be capped for example. But I wouldn't worry too much about that for now. If it were so unbalanced, you would already see Og and Tr Tm spending the game in spider form. You don't.

dpeg wrote:Regarding the eating mechanic: this is to add spider flavour. It's not necessary to have the chunk-potions last forever; they could disappear like Vampire's blood bottles.

I think that would be better yes. I agree with KL that the current proposal encourages to butcher every single corpse to stock up on food. And it makes the food clock impossible to balance. I wouldn't make them eat undeads or demons though. Spiders eat living things.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 13:49

Re: Spider god

Note that rotting food potions means followers will have huge trouble doing extended: they would have to keep a farm to come back to between or possibly even during branches, and pan becomes incredibly risky and would probably require sustenance. It works for vampires because they don't die when they run out of food...

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 14:00

Re: Spider god

I initially assumed that the god would just force you into spider form upon worship - maybe that doesn't fit the flavour as nicely, but it seems like it might work better than always requiring you find the spell? (If the spell were required then you'd always want to forget it soon after to regain the spell slots, incidentally).

The arachnophobia idea seems strange to me, in that some percentage of humanoids would just passively "die" for full XP and piety with no player input. Pacification and banishment have high hunger/piety costs for similar effect - obviously arachnophobia is a lot more limited so it might not be unbalanced necessarily, but it still seems a little off to me. Perhaps considering the downsides of permanent spider form it wouldn't be a problem, though.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 14:06

Re: Spider god

Galefury wrote:It works for vampires because they don't die when they run out of food...

Also, blood fountains are much more common now. Maybe spiders could use them too to make their snack?
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 14:16

Re: Spider god

I believe having players create and stockpile permafood would be far less tedious than having them stockpile living monsters to periodically come back to and create fresh potions from. Especially if making the food costs something. It doesn't have to be piety, that was just the first thing that came to my mind.

Allowing food creation from blood fountains might help with pan a bit and would probably be a good idea no matter whether food potions rot or not, but seems hard to communicate to players. A message from your god when you find the first one could solve that problem.

If arachnophobia turns out to be a problem it could be changed or replaced. The disadvantages of being a permaspider really are pretty huge, especially later in the game, so compensating with something that is hugely overpowered sounds fine to me (cf. felids).

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 14:26

Re: Spider god

I don't know about you guys, but I really like the idea of first having someone (especially a named one) freak out in sight of a spider, then have my god turn the guy into a spider so that we can mate. It's pretty cruel (and yes, rape is horrible in real life and I won't accept real-life rape jokes) but it fits my idea of "revenge on the humanoids" really well. And arachnophobia is a nice trope, of course. There's several parameters to tweak, so I wouldn't worry about it in advance.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 17:06

Re: Spider god

Galefury wrote:Note that rotting food potions means followers will have huge trouble doing extended: they would have to keep a farm to come back to between or possibly even during branches, and pan becomes incredibly risky and would probably require sustenance. It works for vampires because they don't die when they run out of food...


IIRC, extended-game food problems was one of the reasons we decided Arachnophobia has a chance to turn terrified humanoids into spiders after you've mated with Ix, and why demons and angels got included as potential Arachnophobia targets. That way, you'll have a somewhat regular source of food even in corpseless branches like Pan and Abyss, by mating with the ex-demon new spiders and eating their heads and such. Another idea that came up was that after you mate with Ix, spiders simply generate occasionally on all levels.

Roderic wrote:Two options: the simple one is not to allow it. The second one would be that Beogh can remove the transformation, although it can be somewhat abusable if your orc decides to switch later to another god and use Beogh as a bridge.


We went with the first, at the end of the Long Summary it says Beogh won't accept permaspider Hill Orcs, and during the discussion we thought it would be better if other gods couldn't undo the switch. Picture Beogh as a really, really angry parent who's just discovered their kid has gotten a dozen piercings and tattoos all over. Why would you do this to yourself, et cetera.

We hadn't thought about Jiyva, but it will probably be okay as is. Maybe Jiyva can undo mutation suppression in Spider Form, but that might be a bit too much coding.


Edit: It seems like the requirement to be in Spider Form is somewhat unpopular, which is a shame, since I do think it's a cool idea. I don't want to see it removed completely, though. How about this: anybody can join up, and Ix will handle the spiderification for you, but if you're already in Spider Form when you join the religion, you get to start out with * or maybe even ** piety. That way, it will encourage players to try to find Spider Form and get it castable, like the original suggestion, but if you're not a caster or you don't get lucky finding Spider Form, you can still renounce your horrendous humanoid ways.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 17:50

Re: Spider god

Why wouldn't spiders have the octopode ability to wear 8 rings simultaneously?
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 17:57

Re: Spider god

XuaXua wrote:Why wouldn't spiders have the octopode ability to wear 8 rings simultaneously?


You can't do that in Spider Form, and for simplicity we just went with whatever Spider Form does. Theoretically, Ix could teach you how to understand your body arrangement better so you could manipulate rings onto your extra limbs, but changing the body slot arrangement so drastically during play -- losing all your armor and weapon slots and replacing most or all of them with ring slots -- would probably be a huge coding and design hassle.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:13

Re: Spider god

dpeg wrote:PIETY GAIN
  • mating with other spiders

WAIT WHERE DO I SIGN UP

More seriously, this sounds fun. The god part, not the mating part. Well, not just that part. OK, I'm done now. :oops:
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:17

Re: Spider god

I like the spider form requirement to join. If an altar in D:6-13 is guaranteed, conversion "rarity" being enforced by something else looks normal to me; none of the other nontemple gods have guaranteed dungeon altars, you need either a lot of luck or a specific class to be a follower without going into their respective branch first. So spider form requirement is just a twist in the rules already in place.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:20

Re: Spider god

nicolae wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Why wouldn't spiders have the octopode ability to wear 8 rings simultaneously?


You can't do that in Spider Form


Probably because Octopodes were added after Spider Form was implemented, right?
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:20

Re: Spider god

Not sure but, couldn't an intelligent spider evoke wands ? Octopodes do it. This would be a differentiation from felid race...
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:33

Re: Spider god

XuaXua wrote:
nicolae wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Why wouldn't spiders have the octopode ability to wear 8 rings simultaneously?


You can't do that in Spider Form


Probably because Octopodes were added after Spider Form was implemented, right?


I have no idea why Spider Form didn't get eight rings after Octopodes were implemented, but I'm guessing it's because adding new slots, or changing existing slots, is harder than just making some slots unusable.

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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 18:38

Re: Spider god

There is absolutely no reason to give eight rings to spider form (the spell). Not power-wise (spider form is good at what it does), and completely out of the question interface-wise (do you want to juggle rings each time you start/end spider form?).

It could be done with spider form (from the god), but that'd take away Octopodes' special gimmick and I don't think it is necessary. The only exception I could see is for Octopodes taking on Ixy (one of the many species' perks that are definitely not necessary for a first version of the god).

I noted that whenever I proposed content that was optional (or random, i.e. non-guaranteed), players would complain until it was guaranteed. We've been through this on Lugonu, Beogh, Jiyva. I know that players love to lay out the game plan before they even start ("This time, I will be a Foo of Bar."). Thankfully we could protect Draconians and Demonspawn yet :)
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 23:50

Re: Spider god

nicolae wrote:Another idea that came up was that after you mate with Ix, spiders simply generate occasionally on all levels.

I'm not sure about turning monsters into spiders and either eating them or mate them for spider swarm. How about this: spider swarm is a normal ability, that costs piety and it makes neutral spiders coming from all directions and going at the target. You can attack some for food and let the others attack the enemies. After a while, most of them leave the place, maybe some wander around. Power of spiders scaled by invocations, number by piety.

It could be done with spider form (from the god), but that'd take away Octopodes' special gimmick and I don't think it is necessary. The only exception I could see is for Octopodes taking on Ixy (one of the many species' perks that are definitely not necessary for a first version of the god).

Octopodes can already keep their rings in spider form. It has been implemented somewhat recently.
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Post Wednesday, 15th August 2012, 23:51

Re: Spider god

dpeg wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I really like the idea of first having someone (especially a named one) freak out in sight of a spider, then have my god turn the guy into a spider so that we can mate. It's pretty cruel (and yes, rape is horrible in real life and I won't accept real-life rape jokes) but it fits my idea of "revenge on the humanoids" really well. And arachnophobia is a nice trope, of course. There's several parameters to tweak, so I wouldn't worry about it in advance.


Pretend-rape is a pretty triggery subject for a lot of people, too. I think there is very little to be gained by including such a crass joke as a game mechanic. Crawl is not 4chan, and shouldn't be.

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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 00:09

Re: Spider god

KoboldLord: I thought about this, and I believe that your reaction, while natural, is a bit hypocritical: we're playing a game where the only content is murder. What the Spider god is advocating is effectively parasitism: humanoids are used as carriers for spider reproduction. Seemingly, we're able to consider killing monsters in an abstract fashion, and I believe that we can do the same with spiders mating. The whole thing is a take on the mating rituals of spiders ("black widow" is something of a metaphor), no need to get worked up about it.
Gameplay-wise, it's a means to provide the character with food in areas where there are no living monsters.
Design-wise, I like my gods wacky. Mating with a god is a good step in that direction, as is a god nailed to the sky, or a slime deity.

I do draw a line somewhere: I was the one who lobbied until "Adolf" was renamed (into "Frederick"), and I removed "...of the Holocaust" as an artefact name. I wouldn't want a scroll of genocide in my game (regardless of the balance issues).

However, I don't like political correctness for itself. And in Crawl, apart from the ubiquitious slaughter, we feature book burning (a hot topic here in Germany), silly jokes on Christianity (Beogh), displays of torture for fun (Kikubaaqudgha's show-off altar). I am responsible for the first two, but not for the third. I have never heard complaints about any of these.

I have no idea what 4chan is.

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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 00:34

Re: Spider god

galehar wrote:How about this: spider swarm is a normal ability, that costs piety and it makes neutral spiders coming from all directions and going at the target. You can attack some for food and let the others attack the enemies.

Well, it wasn't supposed to be a summons, there's already plenty of those; it was intended like a status effect that does damage over time and spreads between monsters. Displaying "s"s was just supposed to be a visual effect to indicate to console players that a spider swarm was active, like how lantern of darkness darkens the tiles you can see.

dpeg wrote:KoboldLord: I thought about this, and I believe that your reaction, while natural, is a bit hypocritical: we're playing a game where the only content is murder.

While I didn't make the connection myself during the brainstorming, if it bothers people that the character is essentially mating with unwilling humanoids, I'm okay with jettisoning the mechanic of turning fleeing humanoids into spiders. People tend to be more accepting of violence in video games because for most people it's not anything they're likely to deal with in reality -- I don't have to worry during the course of my day-to-day life that I'm going to get shot at or blown up or stabbed by an elf, so it's easy to treat that kind of thing as just an abstract idea when I encounter it in video games. Sexual assault, on the other hand, is much more common statistically, and for many women, even if they've never been sexually assaulted, it's a much more concrete concern than getting attacked by monsters in a cave.

Mating with Ix and other spiders is probably okay, I think; the former is no weirder than Greek mythology and the latter is no worse than a nature documentary. If we need food and late-game spiders, we can just add spiders to the list of monsters that can be generated after you hit six stars.
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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 01:13

Re: Spider god

nicolae wrote:While I didn't make the connection myself during the brainstorming, if it bothers people that the character is essentially mating with unwilling humanoids, I'm okay with jettisoning the mechanic of turning fleeing humanoids into spiders

Honestly: Now that it's been cast in this light, I'm not sure I can see it in another. As a guy, I'm not sure why spider-banging Margery is so much worse than murdering her, enslaving her immortal soul to fight alongside me, and devouring her corpse, but it is.

So yeah, that bit does bother me.

Note that I'd be completely fine with Ix transforming and mating with demons. It does lose some theme, though maybe it's better than "Now there are Spiders in Pan because, um, Ix"

minmay wrote:
dpeg wrote:I have no idea what 4chan is.

you are the luckiest person

This.
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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 01:20

Re: Spider god

njvack wrote:Honestly: Now that it's been cast in this light, I'm not sure I can see it in another. As a guy, I'm not sure why spider-banging Margery is so much worse than murdering her, enslaving her immortal soul to fight alongside me, and devouring her corpse, but it is.

I think it's because it's easy enough to picture someone who would get way too much pleasure from spider-banging Margery.

Note that I'd be completely fine with Ix transforming and mating with demons. It does lose some theme, though maybe it's better than "Now there are Spiders in Pan because, um, Ix"

Here's another idea I just had: when you do Arachnophobia after mating with Ix, Ix throws a few members of your brood alongside you to help chase away the horrors. Increased chance of scaring and you get a few spiders hanging around.
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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 01:45

Re: Spider god

nicolae wrote:
njvack wrote:Honestly: Now that it's been cast in this light, I'm not sure I can see it in another. As a guy, I'm not sure why spider-banging Margery is so much worse than murdering her, enslaving her immortal soul to fight alongside me, and devouring her corpse, but it is.

I think it's because it's easy enough to picture someone who would get way too much pleasure from spider-banging Margery.

I think you're right. Ugh.
Here's another idea I just had: when you do Arachnophobia after mating with Ix, Ix throws a few members of your brood alongside you to help chase away the horrors. Increased chance of scaring and you get a few spiders hanging around.

That seems elegant... this assumes Arachnophobia would be an active ability (and I think it should be).
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Post Thursday, 16th August 2012, 01:49

Re: Spider god

You note that most uniques are male, and you know that the spider that gets eaten is the male one?
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