Mandatory Zot stair vaults

[sgrunt]

Theoretically speaking, in my view, the Realm of Zot should be the climax of the average game (perhaps not true for some aspects of all-rune games, but generally true). For the climactic branch of the game, then, it's remarkably samey, being little more than long hallways and small-to-medium rooms with random monster placements; about the only interesting things I have seen or experienced in Zot are the Hall of Zot itself (natch) and the rare occasions when one comes across a stair vault (lemuel_acid_trip, lemuel_halls_of_wrath, or evilmike_ambush, anyone?).

It's that latter point that led to my crazy idea: have all stairs in Zot be in stair vaults.

I envision a system wherein there would be sets of stair vaults guaranteed to have a maximum of N stairs; the level builder would try to place an upstair vault placing three or less stairs, count the number of stairs actually placed, and successively place stair vaults placing up to (3 - stairs placed) stairs; of course, it would then do the same for downstair vaults.

The major requirement of this would be to have enough stair vaults to keep this substantially interesting, but if pulled off well, it could give the branch as a whole the level of memorability it deserves as the finale of the game.

Thoughts?

[njvack]

Well... if there aren't enough stair vaults to be substantially interesting, the end result won't be any worse than not having the stairs in vaults.

Absolutely agree with your take on Zot's same-ness -- it feels like Elf, except with beefier monsters. This sounds like a good plan...

[crate]

This is going to be tremendously annoying for characters who are bad at fighting things but good at running past them, assuming stair vaults generally contain some monsters. So this is a pretty big balance thing to think about.

It would probably be more interesting for other characters than what we have now.

[evilmike]

If making Zot less same-y is the goal, then I would start by allowing Zot to use multiple layouts. Currently (as a side effect of the way it colours levels, which causes every level to have a primary vault), Zot is limited to only using one layout.

This could be fixed either by making it so more than one layout is possible for levels with primary vaults, or by using a different way of colouring the levels. Both are doable, although for the former, only some layouts would be usable. "Some" is still better than "only one", though.

After this, if the branch still feels dull, I'd start thinking about more radical things like what this thread is suggesting.

[rchandra]

I think it would be good for the Zot entrance on D:27 to always have a vault. I've always been let down when I find the portal sitting in a random hallway with nothing. Even the simple/tiny ones are nice.

[absolutego]

a single layout could be alright (maybe even preferable) if the layout was different than normal ones. wider corridors have been suggested a few times and might just work. it'd affect balance a bit though.

[cerebovssquire]

Cutting Zot to 3 levels would help in this regard too. 2 levels that are roughly the same, to learn about the monsters you will encounter in Zot:5 (3 in this case) too, are a lot less tedious than 4 levels that are roughly the same. I mean it's not like Zot's monster set is uninteresting, it's only that one sees so much of it.
Perhaps one could have one of these levels (probably Zot:2) be completely open so one has the progression from corridors -> open level -> unique lung layout. In this way, one would still find most Zot monsters on 1 and 2, so one learns about their abilities and doesn't die on Zot:5 (now 3), but they would still present different tactical challenges. This would also mean that it wouldn't make Zot a lot harder for characters who run past things, unlike some of the really annoying stair vaults.
The vaults are of course a better solution if the idea is not to make one single run of Zot fun, but Zot different every time...

[njvack]

assuming stair vaults generally contain some monsters.

I don't think there's anything about vaults that says they need to contain monsters.

[Stormfox]

Most of the vaults that are seen the most often don't have monsters, namely the D:1 entry vaults. And of those that do, relatively few of them have the monsters in a position where they can attack you on entry.

[galehar]

I think grunt is suggesting that stairs are guarded by monsters. Putting stairs in flavour vaults isn't likely to make Zot the climatic end he's talking about.

[palin]

I'm not sure I'd like turning every Zot level into a Vault:8 ...

[smock]

Not sure that encouraging stair dancing is the most elegant answer for Zot. "Stairs" in Pan and the hells are interesting because they are one-way. I would like one-way stairs to be used in more places. Zot is a possible place to use them.

[XuaXua]

I read this as "down" stairs are vaults, not entry stairs.

I think if stairs down to the next level are treated as vaults, that would reduce the dance potential and would not be like Vault:8 welcoming party.

[dpeg]

Of course it would be cool if Zot was downwards-only (like Rogue) but that is much more drastic than the rune lock idea. I am afraid it won't happen. You'd be able to go back with the orb, obviously, but for the idea to be at least feasible, it needs some additional way out. What about this: orbs of fire leave an (orb shaped) item upon destruction, and you can go up with such an item in possession? (Proper style would be to lose the item for passage.)

Back on Grunt's topic: such vaults would add theme and gameplay, yes.

[crate]

Forcing players to kill orbs of fire sounds bad. I've had several winning characters who had no realistic hope of killing an orb of fire.

[eeviac]

I've never found Zot to be boring. It has a unique and dangerous monster set that encourages diving and careful play. In fact, the only times I ever dislike Zot is when I get one of the current stair vaults.

[XuaXua]

In my opinion, trunk's shortening of Elf works in favor of Elf.

[pubby]

What if the first 4 floors of Zot were just empty? Sort of like the calm before then storm. When you grab the orb, monsters would spawn on the other levels. Upon leaving Zot the game is won.

[giygas]

What if the first 4 floors of Zot were just empty? Sort of like the calm before then storm. When you grab the orb, monsters would spawn on the other levels.

And while we're at it, why don't we make all of the empty levels large and rectangular, and the stairs are hidden behind a hidden door on the edge somewhere random ...
This will make it even more boring, less orbs of fire to avoid.

Upon leaving Zot the game is won.

But you're still in the dungeon...

[varsovie]

Of course it would be cool if Zot was downwards-only (like Rogue) but that is much more drastic than the rune lock idea. I am afraid it won't happen. You'd be able to go back with the orb, obviously, but for the idea to be at least feasible, it needs some additional way out. What about this: orbs of fire leave an (orb shaped) item upon destruction, and you can go up with such an item in possession? (Proper style would be to lose the item for passage.)

Back on Grunt's topic: such vaults would add theme and gameplay, yes.

I think Smock's idea was to have only ¨escape hatches¨ in Zot (except Zot 5 and Dungeon to Zot stairs). This way you suppress stair dancing (unless of lucky hatch placement) and add a strategic level on complexity for exploration. Another way to do this would be to deactivate the last stair used.

[absolutego]

nobody stairdances zot, unless you find one of those insane welcoming party vaults. this is not an issue.

[crate]

Not being able to go up to rest in Zot:4 instead of Zot:5 is a pretty big deal.

[absolutego]

i somehow read that as zot:5 having hell-like portals back to D. if we're still talking about locking the player in zot, well, what dpeg said.
and anyway the idea was to make 1:4 more interesting. i think that's easier with more open layouts or vaults.

[smock]

I meant escape hatches down. As for going up, I suppose you could still use escape hatches. I don't know.

I guess I just hate that its usually a good idea to stair dance. The best thing about pan is going through a portal and landing 3 steps from Cerebov or whatnot. that said, it would probably be too evil/easy it players were plopped down in the orb chamber.

Not being able to go up to rest in Zot:4 instead of Zot:5 is a pretty big deal.

Yes, but Zot:5 should be a big deal. For many builds Zot:5 is not much worse than Zot:1-4. Not that escape hatches is necessarily the right way to go.

[molari]

The issue with Zot for me isn't challenge level (which is usually about right) - escape hatches, locks etc. won't rectify the blandness and anticlimactic feel of the place. As mentioned the mosnter set is diverse and unique, the issue comes down to the vanilla layout. When I play branches like Orc or shoals it is easy to visualise the environemtn you're in but Zot is . . . corridors with dragons in them pretty much - hardly the promised 'fabulous realm' which requires runes to even enter.

Floating islands, walls of fire, bizarre plants, anything a little more out there really

[Stormfox]

Floating islands, walls of fire, bizarre plants, anything a little more out there really

You get death cobs and Killer Klowns. It's a funhouse of doom.

[zogre]

I thought Zot was basically just the gnomish archmage Zot's tower, which he sequestered off in a pocket dimension that you need runes to access?

Admittedly, my grasp on Crawl lore is tenuous at best - but in that light the layout of the realm makes "sense" to me.

[sgrunt]

For roughly a week now in trunk, tweaks have in place to allow Zot to use more than the one standard level layout previously necessary for all levels with a primary vault; it's now subject to one of several layouts (cf. evilmike's suggestion).

I've poked a few players that have played through this "slightly revamped Zot", and it seems to me that their perception of the place hasn't changed very much. Granted, a week isn't very much time to gather a significant amount of feedback, but I tend to trust the opinion of those I've queried about this; thus, I'd like to try to stoke the flames of this discussion some more.

I don't think that trying to torque the established feel of the game *too* much (such as blocking upstairs until one has the Orb) is the right approach - Zot should be a place that requires all the skills the player / character has honed throughout the rest of the game, and throwing completely unexpected changes at them isn't the right way to go about doing that. It's an established challenge at earlier points in the game for a character to get into, and back out of, heavily guarded areas - runes and the Orb itself, particularly, illustrate this best, as do some branch entrances (in particular, Zot entrances) - so having, say, the down stairs guarded heavily in the manner I originally suggested seems to me as though it would be an appropriate challenge.

If the vaults that are necessary for this are sufficiently well designed, it would provide enough of an additional challenge to make the branch the interesting and climactic place it deserves to be, regardless of the character's play style.