Demonspawn seem so incredibly weak

[ClawlessVictory]

It seems to me that if you pick a race that forces you to deal with negative skill modifiers it's pure luck if you survive long enough to see the temple, let alone the Lair. With demonspawn, if you don't find a good weapon at the start, or you don't pick up a couple of really good mutations, you're screwed. Am I just being butthurt? I've picked demonspawn dozens of times and it's extremely rare that I ever keep one alive long enough to see the Lair.

Maybe they would have a better chance if they had +1 to Polearms and Maces?

[cerebovssquire]

It seems to me that if you pick a race that forces you to deal with negative skill modifiers it's pure luck if you survive long enough to see the temple, let alone the Lair.

Probably you need to learn to run away more. Ds aren't a bad race for streaking, though far from the best. You might also be playing a class too weak for your current skill level, or a class too weak for any skill level* (CK, Wn). Also, this is a huge generalisation, what's with Tr and Ce who will commonly have negative aptitudes in use.
In addition, the difference between 0 and -1 apts is really small. Ds can be considered Hu with good muts*2.
*for winning reliably

I've seen quite a few first wins with demonspawn, too.

*2 of course the xp apt which I initially forgot about is very important, oops

[ClawlessVictory]

It seems to me that if you pick a race that forces you to deal with negative skill modifiers it's pure luck if you survive long enough to see the temple, let alone the Lair.

Probably you need to learn to run away more. Ds aren't a bad race for streaking, though far from the best. You might also be playing a class too weak for your current skill level, or a class too weak for any skill level* (CK, Wn). Also, this is a huge generalisation, what's with Tr and Ce who will commonly have negative aptitudes being used a lot.
In addition, the difference between 0 and -1 apts is really small. Ds can be considered a Hu with good muts.
*for winning reliably

I find that as a demonspawn, all I'm doing is running away haha... backtracking up stairs to heal, taking alternate routes, sneaking around unique monsters. It's really quite frustrating at times.

[crate]

Ds is pretty weak early game because of a combination of the -1 apts and (this is more important, and I suspect you don't even think about it) the 150 xp apt, plus you don't have anything to make up for it at xl1 and maybe don't have anything good for a fair number of xls (oh hooray I got ... thin skeletal structure!! Now I can go win).

[KoboldLord]

Just play foo elementalist, berserker, or something else that allows you to load all your early-game xp onto one or two skills to succeed, and you'll do fine. While it's true that they get virtually nothing in exchange for those -1 aptitudes in the pre-Temple section of the game, if you're loading everything onto one skill that's only a lag of one skill level compared to species with a 0 or +1. That's not a big deal when you're leaning on Freeze or Conjure Flame or Berserk anyway.

[pratamawirya]

My first win was with a Demonspawn Conjurer.

(2nd win was with a DsFi or something.)

[One-Eyed Jack]

I like Ds casters the most because the relatively low earlygame xl and hp matter somewhat less. I usually have a hard time losing a character with e.g. mephitic cloud before temple. Melee is harder, of course (I think this is true of all races except trolls)

They're probably my favorite race overall (and they have the potential to become very strong lategame if you get some nice mutations

[Deimos]

I like Demonspawn, but they are far too much of a blank slate for me. Being railroaded is bad, but I don't like classes that say "do whatever you want". I have similar issues with Nagas, the aptitudes make me feel like I have to make a hybrid even if it isn't true.

DsCK was my favorite for a long time. It kept me on my toes. Then I realized how incredibly unreliable of a combo that is and how I'm never going to get my first win with one...

They are still fun for me, especially when I get some good mutations early.

[ClawlessVictory]

I like em too, my favorite combo is probably a demonspawn abyssal knight and while I love the challenge the race presents, I still think they could benefit from a few tweaks to their skill aptitudes to make them a bit more viable. It just seems like there's too much of a luck factor involved with whether or not you're going to make it as far as the Lair.

[Konebred]

I would go with trying a caster too. Melee seems to burn out after lair when your skills just aren't up to par unless you luck out on some good wands early or get demonic guardian to at least level 2 early. Try a fire mage of Vehemet. You can get fireball going really quickly, and sticky flame can kill pretty much anything through lair.

[Eji1700]

I would go with trying a caster too. Melee seems to burn out after lair when your skills just aren't up to par unless you luck out on some good wands early or get demonic guardian to at least level 2 early. Try a fire mage of Vehemet. You can get fireball going really quickly, and sticky flame can kill pretty much anything through lair.

I do think this might be something to look into at some point. Some of the abilities might still need tweaks, but I wouldn't say demonspawn is weak.

[dassem]

To me, DS depend on which set of mutations you get. If you're going melee and armor and get the -STR mutations; or if you're going with Oka and get tons of puny demonic guardians, then yes.
However, a few good mutations, such as conservation, a resist, passive freeze and +30% HP make the late/post game a lot easier.
I'm another player who's first 15-rune win was with a DS and I had a bunch of multi-runers (mostly not winners!) as DS, so I wouldn't call 'em weak. My tip would be that you should be flexible and play to the strengths of whichever set of mutations you get, picking an appropriate god and spell-set. Although I'd still say that there are some mutations that are definitely more desirable than others...

[dpeg]

Feedback on the individual DS mutations is very valuable: lists are certainly appreciated!

I am just playing a DSNe^Ash with talons, life protection, icy blue scales, powered by pain, spiny. This strikes me as a rather mediocre set but I am in no position to actually evaluate. By the way, I did change from a pure Necromancer to a Ne/halberd of pain hybrid.

[seth]

I play DSCK pretty much exclusively and I regularly get to XL 10 and often to 18+ (no wins though, of any combo). It's true that the first time I played Hill Orc Priest I got to Zot, but not every class should be the same.

In general I like the direction the mutations have been going--I am not longer as disappointed that I got a certain mutation as I used to be. Haven't gotten any of the new mutations enough to comment, really.

[Tenaya]

Feedback on the individual DS mutations is very valuable: lists are certainly appreciated!

I recently won a Demonspawn Death Knight of Yred (0.11-a0-2983-g491528a) and had the following mutation set:
1 - You have a pair of large horns on your head.
-> no hat, no problem.
2 - You are completely covered in large bone plates (AC +4, SH +4).
-> I never did find out if this stacked with my worn shield, but was a fine scales mutation for the early game.
3 - You are quite resistant to negative energy.
-> because of this (and #6) I went and collected the Bone and Golden runes. It was also handy to not worry about wearing rN+++
4 - You sometimes regain a lot of magical energy from taking damage.
-> this was basically a blank.
46282 | Orc:2 | Bought an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit for 325 gold pieces
If this trick worked it was hardly noticeable and in any case, it was never my best choice for my amulet slot.
5 - You are completely covered in sharp spines.
->this was a nice passive mutation. Not spammy, yet did some damage to attackers.
6 - You are somewhat able to resist unholy torments (1 in 2 success).
-> because of this (and #3) I went and collected the Bone and Golden runes.

I still enjoy the Demonspawn species. The aptitudes are a bit of a limiting condition, but they are not so bad.

[XuaXua]

Wouldn't all demonspawn generally develop some standard innate rN+ and torment resistance?

[pubby]

Augmentation should visibly show the slaying bonuses - e.g. "Aug (+2/+2)".

Slimy green scales seems like the worst scales. rPois should be given at level 1 and it should give EV instead of AC.

Molten/icy scales should have a point or two more of AC.

Yellow Scales should give rAcid+ at level 1 and slightly more AC.

I don't like talons when there are hooves because hooves are better.

[XuaXua]

I don't like talons when there are hooves because hooves are better.

Not if it invalidates those Boots of Running you just acquired.

Because fuck Crawl, it happened to me.

[crate]

Hooves are still better than talons (you lose the slot in both cases).

[dpeg]

My current DSNe^Ash also has this mutation:

You sometimes regain a lot of magical energy from taking damage.

And as minmay and Tenaya say, it seems to do little, but it actually does kick in at times. Since casters at 0 MP have a tendency to reach 0 HP real soon, this mutation can be really interesting. (Also a nice idea to couple it with "Guardian Spirit, even if its not quite perfect.) Since this particular mutation can be made arbitrarily strong with only number tweaks --and easily overpowered-- we just need a little more input, and can then change it (or not, depending on what we get).
So anyone here who got it and made actually good use of it?

Design-wise, it was an attempt to have a "go casting" DS mutation. That's not so easy, and there were a number of purely physical mutations already.

[galehar]

Design-wise, it was an attempt to have a "go casting" DS mutation. That's not so easy, and there were a number of purely physical mutations already.

How about changing it to an active ability that converts some HP to MP, similar to sublimation of blood? I think something like that was discussed on ##crawl-dev a while ago.

[dpeg]

galehar: But if there's only a problem with the power, we can keep it passive. In general, I think that passive abilities are better than active ones -- HP2MP wouldn't be spammed, so it'd be okay. Was someone in ##crawl-dev afraid of abuse? E.g. letting yourself hit by a puny monster to get MP back up? I cannot imagine that that's a good course in actual situations.

[omegasean]

I had a demonspawn VM make it quite far, it is easily a winnable combo.

[roctavian]

Currently I'm running a DsCj of Vehumet with hooves, slimy green scales, powerful demonic guardian, powered by death, and robustness.

I always like hooves, and slimy green scales aren't necessarily bad. I think they should confer rPois earlier in the stages of mutation, as I didn't gain rPois until I was in the 20s. By then I had enough other sources that it was irrelevant. I don't think this is a big deal, though.

Demonic guardian and I have a lukewarm history together. I feel like the intention -- demon buddies show up during high tension to help fight -- is good, but they frequently just sit around since I don't want to waste a turn shouting at them when I have other shit to do (hasting, conjuring, hitting). They're typically relegated to the role of following me into a hallway to get beaten up while I sublimate blood. This might just be a problem with the very nature of allies in hallways, but I dunno. I'm not sure about this stuff.

Robustness is incredibly boring, yet it is one of the most desirable DS mutations.

It goes really well with the powered by death mutation, which I didn't think much of before, but has been utterly insane paired with a troll leather armor and the ring of vitality. In the midgame I was regaining 6HP per round if I was surrounded by bodies and had the ring on. It's not quite as useful now that I've cleared all the early branches, but I think that's a good thing (really useful during parts of the game, situationally useful during the rest).

All of my mutations taken as a package are incredible, and saved my game in Tomb when I ran into a pack of eight or nine Sphinxes. I ice stormed them, but it wasn't quite enough to kill them in one round. They paralyzed me on the next round, and got a load of smites off but ultimately were finished off by an executioner. I had about 15/250 HP and just one almost dead sphinx when I came out of paralysis. That was tense.

[Deimos]

I don't really know if mut tweaks really will help. Unless you get them early, your ability to mutate is null during the hardest part of the game. I think if we could be guaranteed a early mutation, this might ease up on the pain an early DS has.

[dpeg]

Deimos: I think we have established that there isn't so much early pain for DS. If you pick a non-controversial background, that alone will help you survive until levels kick in.

Of what I've seen so far, I like the idea of giving out rPois at level 2 of its set. And the damage->MP mutation might warrant a boost, but I'd like to hear more before lobbying for this.

[evilmike]

Design-wise, it was an attempt to have a "go casting" DS mutation. That's not so easy, and there were a number of purely physical mutations already.

How about changing it to an active ability that converts some HP to MP, similar to sublimation of blood? I think something like that was discussed on ##crawl-dev a while ago.

I mentioned this in ##crawl-dev, my thought was that it would just be a bad version of sublimation. I think it would be better to have an ability that lets you use HP instead of MP for casting spells, either something you activate or something that kicks in at 0 MP.

[galehar]

galehar: But if there's only a problem with the power, we can keep it passive. In general, I think that passive abilities are better than active ones -- HP2MP wouldn't be spammed, so it'd be okay. Was someone in ##crawl-dev afraid of abuse? E.g. letting yourself hit by a puny monster to get MP back up? I cannot imagine that that's a good course in actual situations.

No, nobody was afraid of abuses. Here is the link to the log, the discussion starts at 15:45:59 (thanks |amethyst for the IRC log search!). And I misremembered. There was the idea of making augmentation an active ability with an HP cost, and there was a lot of ideas bounced for PbP.

[Tenaya]

I don't really know if mut tweaks really will help. Unless you get them early, your ability to mutate is null during the hardest part of the game. I think if we could be guaranteed a early mutation, this might ease up on the pain an early DS has.

No, please don't guarantee an early mutation ... I'm a recovering compulsive start-scummer and this would hamper my recovery.

[dpeg]

Here are the results of a not so short ##crawl-dev discussion:

1. Green/yellow scales give their resistances at level 2.

2. Powered by Pain is replaced by getting MP from killing casters.

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

4. Tentative: Augmention is reversed: it buffs you while you're at high Health (akin to Sword of Power).

5. Tentative new DS mutation: elemental attacks have a chance to temporarily provide the corresponding resistance.

Open issue: Nightstalker is strong but not always fun, as exploration takes much longer. Dismissed: a Nightstalker toggle (overlaps with Darkness spell). Also dismissed: You have full LOS but it shrinks (to Nightstalker size) if enemies come into sight (flucuating LOS size is too fiddly). Perhaps: Monsters in standard-LOS but outside of Nightstalker-LOS act like you're invisible.

Open issue: Some player quit when they get the monstrous DS set. Is this a concern?

[eeviac]

Losing 3 armour slots in exchange for losing scales seems like a straight up downside no matter how you slice the monstrous set. I've never liked it.

[Deimos]

It can be useful for UC Ds.

[crate]

I don't really think monstrous is a problem but I think making claws do something for non-UC characters could be good anyway and that would also make monstrous more attractive.

The augmentation change sounds good. The powered by pain change also sounds good for gameplay though it might make it feel kind of similar to powered by death, not sure if this is a bad thing.

[KoboldLord]

Open issue: Nightstalker is strong but not always fun, as exploration takes much longer. Dismissed: a Nightstalker toggle (overlaps with Darkness spell). Also dismissed: You have full LOS but it shrinks (to Nightstalker size) if enemies come into sight (flucuating LOS size is too fiddly). Perhaps: Monsters in standard-LOS but outside of Nightstalker-LOS act like you're invisible.

Maybe it should map terrain in standard-LOS as if the player was seeing it normally, but monsters and items need to be inside Nightstalker-LOS? It would clip off some of the extraneous exploration, and it's easy to rationalize being able to see walls and doors more easily through the gloom than monsters or loot.

Open issue: Some player quit when they get the monstrous DS set. Is this a concern?

Probably not. Body slot mutations have a bad, bad reputation which isn't at all appropriate for this particular situation. They generally are bad mutations, but with monstrous you know they're coming and can plan your build accordingly. But for most players, all they see is that they were definitely destined to get some great randart for every equipment slot and now they don't get two of them. Plus they lose out on the scales, and here they're not going to be thinking about the fact that they're definitely not getting thin skeletal structure.

There's probably nothing to be done, but one thing that could work is to rework the facet tiers for monstrous demonspawn so they're guaranteed more melee-appropriate mutations. Perhaps with some unique monstrous-only mutations or mutation versions. Three body slot mutations push a caster demonspawn into hybridization, since those mutations do nothing useful at range, but if they then get caster mutations for the rest of their facets they're going to be ignoring one or the other.

Most of the problem is probably ignorance, though, plain and simple. Loads of people still think auxiliary attacks with a body slot mutation require unarmed combat skill to function properly, and that would be pretty terrible if it were still true.

[varsovie]

My only concern with Ds, is not the final set of mutation, but the order we get them. Getting horn, then rn + then demonic guardians quite different for early surviving than guardian, rn +, then horn or horn, rn +, horn 2, rn ++ then guardian.
So my suggest would be to find a way so you don't get only the "useless" mutations first.

And for demonic guardianin particular, if you want to play Oka, getting the gardian "slot" weith another mutation at first permit you to use an early altar, getting it last means that you should choose another god or take a chance of penance. Good god ability is really important when you reach post-lair, so Oka + gardian, you are kinda screw. Thank for change no. 3.

P.S. One mutation I would like to have is "holiness" (or redemption). Tier 1, You do not receive extra dmg from holy weapons and loose extra dmg with demonic weapon. Tier 2, Can wield weapons of holy wrath, but cannot use demonic weapons. Tier 3, Can worship good gods.

[rchandra]

On a slight aside, I think it would be nice to slightly further differentiate the good goods by having Elyvilon allow demonspawn worship. After all, the demonspawn shouldn't be blamed for the sins of its parents. The Shining One and Zin would probably not be ok with that but Elyvilon could.

Note that good conducts are already somewhat different, it should be ok to further vary their tolerances.

[cerebovssquire]

Redemption/holiness has two problems IMO. First of all, you're taking away a major Ds "gimmick" and thus make them more similar to other races, which isn't a good thing because differentiation increases replayability. Second, Tier 3 is useless in most games. Why? By the time you get it you will have a different god, if you don't want to play suboptimally. And since that god is guaranteed to be non-good, you are guarenteed god wrath (and of course go back to 0* with your new god, unless Zin), and so that would always be suboptimal too.

[palin]

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

And what about it being optional? A lot of times you don't want your allies to die, but if you are in high tension a powerful demon can save your life, and you can stand some Oka penance for your life...
The interface could be as simple as a Y/N question, even if I'm concerned that a Y/N question which pops out not in response to active player action could be annoying...

[cerebovssquire]

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

And what about it being optional? A lot of times you don't want your allies to die, but if you are in high tension a powerful demon can save your life, and you can stand some Oka penance for your life...
The interface could be as simple as a Y/N question, even if I'm concerned that a Y/N question which pops out not in response to active player action could be annoying...

It would be extremely annoying considering Demonic Guardian frequency. Said frequency is also the reason why it sucks so much with Okawaru.
As long as "prevents Demonic Guardian from coming up" doesn't mean "surpresses spawning" but instead "you get a different mutation to replace it", that is a much smoother solution (and also how I read dpeg's post).

[palin]

It would be extremely annoying considering Demonic Guardian frequency. Said frequency is also the reason why it sucks so much with Okawaru.
As long as "prevents Demonic Guardian from coming up" doesn't mean "surpresses spawning" but instead "you get a different mutation to replace it", that is a much smoother solution (and also how I read dpeg's post).

Ooh I just read better. I assumed you got the mutation but not the benefits. And what happens if you worship Oka after you got the mutation?

[sanka]

I like the fact that you need to adjust your strategy with demonspawn: this is their really unique mechanic, and should be stronger rather than weaker. I do not really like the proposed changes to the demonic guardian (with okawaru) mutations. Gods should not affect mutations: mutations should affect god choice.

The suggestion of disabling some "caster" mutations for monstorus demonspawn sounds really good. Maybe guarantee one "reatilate" mutation (spines or freeze) for them.

The power of some mutations certainly should change tough. I do not want every one of them the same power, but the differences are too high.

[nicolae]

P.S. One mutation I would like to have is "holiness" (or redemption). Tier 1, You do not receive extra dmg from holy weapons and loose extra dmg with demonic weapon. Tier 2, Can wield weapons of holy wrath, but cannot use demonic weapons. Tier 3, Can worship good gods.

Resistance to holy damage might work better if it's flavored and written as the demonspawn just having a super evil aura that protects it from even the holiest of powers. Tier 1: Less holy damage, Tier 2: Can wield holy weapons, Tier 3: Melee deals "unholy" damage vs. holy creatures. Or something like that, I dunno.

Incidentally, there's an old god idea for a god of redeeming demonic and undead players, bouncing around the devwiki, and at 6 stars you're allowed to switch to a good god. I like that idea, though apparently it never went anywhere.

[galehar]

Ooh I just read better. I assumed you got the mutation but not the benefits. And what happens if you worship Oka after you got the mutation?

A very annoying game, but why would you?

[galehar]

Here are the results of a not so short ##crawl-dev discussion:

1. Green/yellow scales give their resistances at level 2.

2. Powered by Pain is replaced by getting MP from killing casters.

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

4. Tentative: Augmention is reversed: it buffs you while you're at high Health (akin to Sword of Power).

5. Tentative new DS mutation: elemental attacks have a chance to temporarily provide the corresponding resistance.

That sounds like a plan. I support all those ideas.

[palin]

A very annoying game, but why would you?

No particular reason, but I think you're penalized for a late temple and get a bonus for a early altar this way.

[galehar]

A very annoying game, but why would you?

No particular reason, but I think you're penalized for a late temple and get a bonus for a early altar this way.

An early altar to a god you want to worship is always a bonus anyway. That's the point, isn't it?

[dpeg]

sanka: regarding Okawaru: I sort of agree and I wouldn't think about how to sort the DG vs Oka affair if it wasn't for player complaints (which I consider valid: getting DG and being forced to take a god different from Oka is fine; getting DG after going Oka is not). Another proposal I made was this: DG always comes up as first or second mutation -- that way players can reliably go Okawaru after the second mutation, if DG didn't show up. But that's more spoilery, so I think the actual proposal is better.

Regarding monstrous: I was considering a bonus mutation (e.g. wings, i.e. flight, or strong tail, i.e. constriction) but got no replies on ##crawl-dev. Restricting the non-bodily mutations of a monstrous DS is also a good idea.

[sanka]

Even if a little (more) spoilery, I like the early guardian proposal better. And it can become much less spoilery if every mutation has a level limit where the first level of it can pop up (maybe determined primarily with tier level). With some playing you will get a feeling which can happen when. What are the current rules for the levels anyway?

Alternative idea: what if okawaru makes an exception for your demon helpers for some unknown reason, and do not takes piety away? Maybe change the mutation that your guardian(s) cannot die, just "sent back" to somewhere where they keep coming back to help you. Of course that makes my earlier argument just as pointless, but at least this is not spoilery, because you can display some message of them "not dying really".

About monstrous: constriction sounds really good. It also encourages melee combat, so your other body facets will be more useful. If the wings does not give permanent flight they do not sound too useful. And permanent flight maybe Tengu's domain now. (Altough I would support permanent flight for black drac and a hypotetical DS mutation - it's not so strong. Tengu gets speed and EV bonus also.)

[XuaXua]

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

If it isn't already implemented, Demonspawn with the mutation should get a warning if they try to follow Okawaru.