Demonspawn seem so incredibly weak

[pubby]

The thing about demon guardian is that its strength depends on how early you get it. If you can get it to level 2 before lair you can clear it with extreme ease. A single sunbro can kill hydras, death yaks, etc.

So by giving the mutation early it may unbalance it.

[XuaXua]

When I play Demonspawn, I HATE mutating claws because they make it really hard to type.

[Eji1700]

One question does come to mind-
Why does claws 1 let you wear gloves but horns 1 doesn't let you wear a helmet? It just strikes me as inconsistent.

[palin]

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

If it isn't already implemented, Demonspawn with the mutation should get a warning if they try to follow Okawaru.

I think this is the right and simple solution. Like attacking with a venom weapon with TSO.

[Bloax]

Wouldn't giving Demonic Guardian a On/Off switch solve the entire problem?

If you need someone to save your butt, turn it on. Otherwise keep it off so that you won't lose gargantuan amounts of piety.

[palin]

Wouldn't giving Demonic Guardian a On/Off switch solve the entire problem?

I thought about it, I concluded that I personally would forget to reactivate it in times of need.

[Cedor]

My 2 cents from a typical crawl loser :

I love Ds, for the mutation aspect, and the the decisions it force me to take. And as a yasdyer, I often base my chars on starting luck :p

I tend to consider that low lvl skills aren't really a problem since you can pick Ash that'll give you some bonus skills. Plus if you worship Ash, talons come in handy, allowing you to go to two handed non cutting weapons.

Regarding the monstruous aspect, I almays quit when it comes inline beacause I still don't know how to survive correctly with such a weak troll (it's even more glass canon than troll or ghoul because you don't have nice bonus like undead or carnivore, or high strength).

Some mutation sets are obviously more usefull than others, but the pleasure come from the surprise. I have always loved the mutation roulette, but also always found it really hard and dangerous, and Ds is a more secured way. Maybe, you could install some lineage for Ds (I think monstruous is a good idea, even if I can't play it), defining some subsets we could instantly identify, and maybe allowing us to choose it (and leave the door open for a full random Ds) during char creation.

[njvack]

If it isn't already implemented, Demonspawn with the mutation should get a warning if they try to follow Okawaru.

I disagree. The religion screen is quite explicit about what Oka dislikes, and DG procs very frequently, so you know you'll be getting allies on a regular basis.

If you follow Oka after getting the DG mutation, that's a mistake you will make exactly one time.

[tizzy]

ds used to be my fav race, it was my goal for the longest time to get a DS melee tab fighter going and its just near impossible at times. anytime I had a good one going would pretty much get monstrous when I had so much invested in weapon skill making claws pointless and then losing all my items slots, now im worthless and dead. when you get monstrous early on I would do ok but eventually with the lack of scales armor slots and bad aptitudes you just cant keep up. namelex and getting lucky with exp wonder cards is the only times i have got to the end games with one. any other god and I just suck aside oki who is great but of coarse bad luck gives you guardian shortly after

not only does the above instantly ruin a character with nothing you can do about it, getting the other skills powered by pain and aug are completely worthless to me. I dont even notice them doing anything.

Thin Skeletal Structure and Large Bone Plates are my least fav scales but they are not horrible.

hoping for some ds love. the mutations are so fun i don't mind some not so good ones, but as it is now it feels unplayable if you get a really bad combo.

[ClawlessVictory]

Maybe, you could install some lineage for Ds (I think monstruous is a good idea, even if I can't play it), defining some subsets we could instantly identify, and maybe allowing us to choose it (and leave the door open for a full random Ds) during char creation.

This is an interesting idea. Perhaps at character creation, like choosing a starting weapon, you could choose from a 'warrior lineage' or a 'caster lineage', and then your skill modifiers are tailored to your choice. I've been wanting to run a melee demonspawn character for ages, and like others I've had absolutely no success.

or...

How about picking up positive skill modifiers with certain mutations? Say for example, if you acquire demonic guardian, you get summoning +1. Spikes, fighting +1. Thin skeletal structure, dodging +1. Large bony plates, armor +1. etc...

[dpeg]

Clawless Victory: I am afraid this goes very much in the opposite direction to how we (or at least I) see DS.

The two randomised species (DS and Dr) are about adaptation, and they do that in different ways: DS with random mutations throughout the game; Dr with aptitude changes and fixed mutations at a specific, single moment (XL 7).

Letting players choose the lineage (or similarly, the Dr colour) would remove the need for adaptation and instead turn DS and Dr into a number of subspecies, picked at game start.

Furthermore, introducing aptitude modifications to DS would blur the mechanics between DS and Dr, and quite needlessly so, in my opinion.

[ClawlessVictory]

Clawless Victory: I am afraid this goes very much in the opposite direction to how we (or at least I) see DS.

The two randomised species (DS and Dr) are about adaptation, and they do that in different ways: DS with random mutations throughout the game; Dr with aptitude changes and fixed mutations at a specific, single moment (XL 7).

Letting players choose the lineage (or similarly, the Dr colour) would remove the need for adaptation and instead turn DS and Dr into a number of subspecies, picked at game start.

Furthermore, introducing aptitude modifications to DS would blur the mechanics between DS and Dr, and quite needlessly so, in my opinion.

Understood, and that makes sense. I still like my idea of picking up aptitude modifications as you mutate though

[pubby]

Letting players choose the lineage (or similarly, the Dr colour) would remove the need for adaptation and instead turn DS and Dr into a number of subspecies, picked at game start.

It doesn't have to be at the start. Allow DS two mutation choices for each mutation slot.
e.g.
"Your demonic ancestry asserts itself, [A] demonic guardian or [B] magic resistance?"

It could be reasoned that they can inherit from either their mother or father and because they're demons they get to choose.

[seth]

presumably either the mother or father was a human. and IMO the point of demonspawn is to embrace the RNG and learning to deal with whatever mutation you get

[twelwe]

"Your demonic ancestry asserts itself, [A] demonic guardian or [B] magic resistance?"

No. This is still sub-species selection. It just happens later in the game.

It could be reasoned that they can inherit from either their mother or father and because they're demons they get to choose.

this is not how balance is decided, and is a poor argument anyway

[KoboldLord]

Speaking of Demonic Guardian, I have never once been happy to get it in a real game. Regardless of build. If it comes in late, I have a retinue of useless imp-class vermin that follow me around, wandering into my firing lines for spells, bows, or wands and generally being more of a nuisance to me than to the enemy. That death yak didn't need something to tank my projectiles for it on the way over to my robe-encased flesh, thank you. If it comes in early, though, I get the unpleasantly dull experience of watching as my squad of executioners kill everything without any particular action on my part. I don't even get to hit the button that releases them on my enemy; they just come and play the game for me, and make me watch.

[dpeg]

KoboldLord: I have had games where the guardian came late in the fight, and turned the tide.

I guess what you're implying is that the DG mutation should come early (first or second slot) and grow in a not-as-random-as-now manner.

[Cedor]

Or later for the 3rd lvl of DG. Is there any stats about makleb greater demon coming online?

One thing I found incredibly strange is the fact that some mutation comes to lvl 3 before all the others mutation has appear (and DG is a good example) . I know it come from the RNG, but maybe, we could add xl requirement for mutation to level up? I mean once we know which set we have, it's only matter of progression, no more of adaptations.

[KoboldLord]

KoboldLord: I have had games where the guardian came late in the fight, and turned the tide.

I guess what you're implying is that the DG mutation should come early (first or second slot) and grow in a not-as-random-as-now manner.

No, I'm saying I don't like the feel of the current version at all. If Demonic Guardian comes early, whenever I see an interesting fight a bunch of executioners poof into existence, run ahead of me, and kill everything before I can get to it. Too much power is worse than not enough. Playing the game means pressing the buttons to make my character do things, and success depends on whether I decide to make my character do the right things. With Demonic Guardian 3 in Lair, my success is pre-ordained, and I don't get to press any buttons to make it happen. It just happens.

Compare to, say, Kiku or Yred's zombies, which follow politely behind me while I do all the important things, and only come up to encircle the enemy after I've decided the best line of approach and used a couple spells or attacks to soften them up. I can shove one of them in the way if I want to run, or I can order them to stand guard while I make things follow me into an ambush. If I mess up, I'm down a consumable resource, since corpses are limited by either piety or enemy spawns.

Demonic Guardian 3 doesn't have any of these things. Executioners don't wait for the player, and they don't need the player's help until much, much later in the game. If they die, and infinite supply of replacements follows at no cost.

[dpeg]

KL: You don't seem to understand what I mean but I'll explain again because you're blue.

If you have DG 1, you don't get executioners, you get imps. That's not a problem and often helpful -- but only early on. If you get DG 1 at XL 12, the imps will not be of much use. This is why DG should come early (so that you benefit from its first level).
On the other hand, if you get DG 3 too early, you can get the feeling that the DG 3 support plays the game for you (this is your argument). Hence, DG 2 and especially DG 3 should come rather late.

Altogether, DG should be less random: if it is selected, the first level should come early, and the later levels should come late (in a specified sense -- there 3*4+2=14 DS mutation levels).

Also, the DG mechanic can be changed. For example, it could delived subpar (for the DG level) guardians if those seem sufficient. We could also simply remove executioners from the DG list.

Personally, I think that DG is one of the more interesting DS mutations: it is unreliabe, and it can save lives, and it is thematic.

[dpeg]

minmay: It would be easy to have both Trog and Okawaru avoid DG. Should that be done?

[ClawlessVictory]

Has anyone ever had any luck whatsoever running a demonspawn skald of Okawaru? I'd love to run a demonspawn hybrid but I can barely make it to the temple after countless tries. Perhaps I'm just getting bored and relying on tab too much...

edit: actually, now that I think about it, is a hybrid even possible with demonspawn? Their aptitudes are low across the board, forcing one to focus on either one or the other. I find myself dumping points into spears, fighting and dodging and holding out on casting until I my melee skills are at an acceptable level, but demonspawn make for pretty lousy fighters... suggestions welcome.

[Tiber]

Has anyone ever had any luck whatsoever running a demonspawn skald of Okawaru? I'd love to run a demonspawn hybrid but I can barely make it to the temple after countless tries. Perhaps I'm just getting bored and relying on tab too much...

edit: actually, now that I think about it, is a hybrid even possible with demonspawn? Their aptitudes are low across the board, forcing one to focus on either one or the other. I find myself dumping points into spears, fighting and dodging and holding out on casting until I my melee skills are at an acceptable level, but demonspawn make for pretty lousy fighters... suggestions welcome.

Does this count? https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4324&p=56292

My skill management is horrible, and I managed a hybrid. I think demonspawn aren't much different than something like a high elf. They start out a little slow, but once you find your niche at killing they get by just fine. Some good mutations help too, of course. I think if you're picking a skald and ignoring magic until a point you never live long enough to reach, you basically just picked a fighter with worse equipment. I would personally try to focus on getting regen and poison weapon, and play hit and run (maybe pick up a bow from a centaur). But that would probably be better for an advice thread than a game design thread.

Anyway, I really don't have a problem with demonspawn. You're basically just picking a harder early game for a stronger late game. I do sometimes wish some of the mutations sucked less because, as someone who doesn't care about win rate, they just make me lose interest in my character (nightstalker, I'm looking at you).

5. Tentative new DS mutation: elemental attacks have a chance to temporarily provide the corresponding resistance.

I had this same idea a while back. I called it "Hellish Adaptation".

I'd also like a transmutation-based mutation that grants you a demon form when threatened (so it's actually passive) with maybe something like fire or frost branded auxiliary attacks. Sort of like a counterpart to (and mutually exclusive with) demonic guardian.

[Cedor]

Comments about Ds mutation set for dpeg. I currently play an hybrid Ds of Ash (https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5400), and got 2 mutations I can comment:

Demonic Gardian : As it was already said, if level of DG are aquired too soon, it's really over powered. I gained DG2 at xl 13, and the gardian killed lots of tought enemies for me. I gained DG3 at xl 19, and continuous 1's killed even more uniques for me. I got an army of zombies as meat shield, and the demon done the work for me. Now i'm in late game, DG is more appropriate, as it provide protection for really thougth situations (DG saved me 3 times from Mennas by blocking his way for 2 rounds allowing me to cast escape spells). To conclude, it's a great tool, but it can be over powered if aquired too soon.

Powered by pain : Honestly, I never have seen the effect of this mutation. I mean, as an hybrid, I need MP defore fights, not during, so when I need to flee, I have all MP that I need. Now I have a source of spirit shield, but i'm unsure PbP really make a difference as I never be hit enough to get MP back (I mean in usefull situation). I fear this mutation is completely useless for a pure fighter, I found it nearly useless as hybrid. And if you're a pure caster, I'm not sure your HP bar can handle the heavy hit that'll give you enough mp to flee.

[Turgon]

Ds is pretty weak early game because of a combination of the -1 apts and (this is more important, and I suspect you don't even think about it) the 150 xp apt, plus you don't have anything to make up for it at xl1

After lots of games with Ds fighter types I know this is true...

As I prefer fighter types at the moment, I looked for different buffs in the early game, like playing
- DsTm - enjoying beastly appendage,
- DsHu - for starting with javelins,
- DsVM - supposed to become a fighter, but with nice sting and cure poison.

After all I think it's important to start very carefully. "Carefully" also means to use most of the possible ressources: discovering the levels nearly completely, making use of everything that could help you. It's also useful to concentrate on one skill which is usually your primary weapon.

Things will become better when you get a punch/headbutt attack or get claws while fighting unarmed.

And when you reach Oka's heroism at 1* piety of course.

I liked playing Ds recently. And if it's hard in the beginning - well, that's crawl!

[Turgon]

Demonspawn seem so incredibly weak

After lots of my Ds died in this week without even reaching the lair I just would like to correct the topic.

Demonspawn are so incredibly weak (Edit: at least when I play them)

Edit2: In the meantime drag0n's decision to play a DsBe became more and more interesting for me.

[Turgon]

Open issue: Some player quit when they get the monstrous DS set. Is this a concern?

I don't quit and I was able to ascend a 15-runer with a monstrous Ds some weeks ago.

Imo the demonic guardian mutation is more important:

No, I'm saying I don't like the feel of the current version at all.

In the meantime that's my opinion too. With demonic guardian it's not me who plays, it's the computer. It's a difference if I want/need some help of angels/brothers or if the game mechanics does it for me whether I want/need it or not.

Nowadays I quit the game after getting demonic guardian mutation no matter how the game looks like.

minmay: It would be easy to have both Trog and Okawaru avoid DG. Should that be done?

As my Ds only worship these gods (at least in early and midgame) this sounds interesting.

[Petro]

I've had modest success with Ds but I agree they are troublesome. Here's my two cents.


* Add more utility based body slots. It would go a long way towards making people reconsider rage quitting their monstrous DsSu. Wings for example, are an oft suggested one that could work well. I'd also love to see a giant turtle shell that takes the armor slot. It'd be nigh impossible to balance but the idea of hiding from executioners like snapping turtles hide from me makes me smile.

* Another alternative fix for PbP, spell eater. Every time you resist an enemy spell you have a chance to gain MP (probably based on hit dice to avoid shenanigans). OR merge the spell eater mechanic with the magic resist mutation and make it tier 3. Magic resist is such a boring mutation anyways.

* How do people feel about the split between the t2/t3 versions of ice and fire? I can't think of a single time where wasn't hoping for the T2 versions. I mean sure hellfire is better than ignition and passive freeze is better than icemail, but the trade off of having icemail and any of the T3s is one I'd take any day of the week.

[galehar]

I've posted this on c-r-d and here are elliptic's answers (he's been quite involved in Ds mutations tweaks):

Here are the results of a not so short ##crawl-dev discussion:

1. Green/yellow scales give their resistances at level 2.

What would they do at level 3 then? Doesn't make much sense to me to make the last level boring just to give out the resistance a little bit earlier (scales already are given out fairly early). If those scales are weak/boring (and I agree they are), we can either remove them or increase the amount of AC they provide.

2. Powered by Pain is replaced by getting MP from killing casters.

This doesn't address the problem that getting extra MP is only useful for a very narrow slice of characters, which is the main issue with the mutation IMO.

3. Following Okawaru (silently) prevents Demon Guardian from coming up.

This would be good, but I'm afraid I'm not sure I see a great way of doing it... currently all the mutations are carefully chosen and scheduled at character creation, and changing this mid-game would be annoying. It can't just be replaced by a random other facet in the same tier because there are other combinations we try to avoid (like ice + fire or ignite blood + foul stench).

4. Tentative: Augmention is reversed: it buffs you while you're at high Health (akin to Sword of Power).

Sounds good to me.

Altogether, DG should be less random: if it is selected, the first level should come early, and the later levels should come late (in a specified sense -- there 3*4+2=14 DS mutation levels).

I already made some changes in this direction in 0.11 (see bc7cee15), but indeed more could be done... just a matter of tweaking the numbers.