Double & triple sword?

[dd]

Ok, I'm totally prepared for everyone to tell me to STFU about this. I get that to some people they probably represent some kind of long-held sacred Crawl tradition or some shit, and this is only my personal opinion. But I just have to say it...

Personally, I think they're stupid. A sword with two blades? Three blades? I mean, come on. I'm pretty sure we could come up with cooler long blades that didn't feel like something from an anime written by a 12-year old.

Double and triple sword always felt to me like whoever thought of them just ran out of ideas for weapons... kind of like, someone figured "damn, we're going to need 2 more longblades for whatever reason, but i can't think of any, oh I know! Let's just add more swords but with MOAR BLADES!!!"

So again, my personal opinion and everyone is free to disagree, but I'd much rather see some cool exotic sword types, instead of these. I have a few ideas:
- claymore: Those things are badass (meaning the two-handed variety, not the later basket-hilted one)
- zweihander: Or call it a two-hander sword, whatever. Really long two-hand sword, possibly with those things on the side for stopping/catching enemy blades.
- oodachi: big japanese sword. Kind of like a longer and heavier katana.
- bastard sword: just a generic name for a sword that can be wielded with one or two hands. Could replace double sword.

[galehar]

This has been raised before. Some people think they are funny, goofy crawl's classics, others find them stupid. kilobyte has been a member of the latter group for a long time, I don't remember other devs opinion.
Personally, I think the joke is getting old, and I wouldn't mind them being replaced with bastard sword and claymore (for double and triple respectively).

[Galefury]

I didn't find this one myself, but here it is: the legendary triple sword.

I think replacing them with bastard sword and claymore would make sense, though.

[dpeg]

There is the issue that it is easier to remove humour than to add it (that's a consequence of having many developers). So I suggest that whoever renames the silly words to their boring versions has to come up with something he finds funny on his own.

(Crawl makes some attempts at humour, and I think that's good: a quick list of the top off my hat: Yiuf. Killer Klowns, death cobs. Beogh water walking. Lots of speech.)

[galehar]

I didn't find this one myself, but here it is: the legendary triple sword.

The plunger at 0:12 is funny.

[dd]

There is the issue that it is easier to remove humour than to add it (that's a consequence of having many developers). So I suggest that whoever renames the silly words to their boring versions has to come up with something he finds funny on his own.

(Crawl makes some attempts at humour, and I think that's good: a quick list of the top off my hat: Yiuf. Killer Klowns, death cobs. Beogh water walking. Lots of speech.)

The things you mentioned I have no issue with. They're funny things you might encounter in the dungeon. I wouldn't have issue with double & triple sword if they were some kind of fixedarts that were hard to find, that had humorous descriptions, but I don't think the regular weapon set should have these kinds of humorous things.

What I mean is, I think humorous things should be used as kind of "easter eggs", not the day-to-day items. For example, no one would find it funny (for very long at least) if we replaced the regular club with a rubber chicken, but it might be funny if there was a 0,1% chance of running into a rare artifact "rubber chicken" with humorous description and properties.

I guess it boils down to, any joke gets old with too much repetition.

[dd]

I wouldn't mind them being replaced with bastard sword and claymore (for double and triple respectively).

That'd be the best option IMO as well.

[galehar]

a rare artifact "rubber chicken"

Does it have a pulley in the middle?

[pubby]

I wouldn't mind them being replaced with bastard sword

Otherwise known as a long sword, which we already have.

and claymore

Otherwise known as a great sword, which we also already have.

I don't think it's acceptable to use common names for rare and powerful items. I'm surprised why you're not concerned with the other unique-ish names: quick blade, executioner's axe, evening star, and lajatang.

Anyway, I think having a double _and_ a triple sword is just too much and one should be made a fixedart.

My suggestion would be for the wavy sworrd perhaps call it a "serpentine sword" or something. It looks distinct and interesting. These were used in south-east Asia I believe.

[njvack]

My suggestion would be for the wavy sworrd perhaps call it a "serpentine sword" or something.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php? ... of+cerebov

[Stormfox]

There's always the possibility of the ridiculously overelaborate ninja weapon. But that joke's already been done.

[Jabberwocky]

I'm not sure that's a good idea in crawl. It fits with the stile of KoL but not crawl.

[pubby]

My suggestion would be for the wavy sworrd perhaps call it a "serpentine sword" or something.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php? ... of+cerebov

Heh, I forgot about that. We wouldn't want to step on Cerebov's toes now would we?

[Livor]

I wouldn't mind them being replaced with bastard sword

Otherwise known as a long sword, which we already have.

and claymore

Otherwise known as a great sword, which we also already have.

I don't think it's acceptable to use common names for rare and powerful items. I'm surprised why you're not concerned with the other unique-ish names: quick blade, executioner's axe, evening star, and lajatang.

Anyway, I think having a double _and_ a triple sword is just too much and one should be made a fixedart.

My suggestion would be for the wavy sworrd perhaps call it a "serpentine sword" or something. It looks distinct and interesting. These were used in south-east Asia I believe.

Well theres the german "Flamberge" thats would work as a replacement for tripple sword I guess. But thats more of a cermonial court-sword rather than a actual battlefield weapon. I guess some kind of middle eastern sword could replace the double sword, I think there are a few hand and a half swords there. I guess using "exotic" weapons is good for the rarer kinds of weapons.

[mageykun]

So... if double swords go the way of the dodo, does this mean katanas un-lose their redundancy battle with them? :p

a rare artifact "rubber chicken"

Does it have a pulley in the middle?

What possible use could that have?

[eeviac]

I don't have a problem with the status quo, but double swords could be renamed as katanas. Everything's better when you add more (bring back) ninja swords. you could even have tso blessed katanas called masamune!

triple swords are a little harder to replace.

[dd]

Otherwise known as a long sword, which we already have.

Nope, you're incorrect I'm afraid. Long sword != bastard sword. Bastard swords were a later development, Long swords were simply one-hand swords, while bastard swords were called "bastards" because they were neither one- nor two-handed - they could be used with one hand, but also had a longer handle so they could be gripped with two hands for thrusting.

You might have been thinking of "broadsword", which is often used synonymously with longsword?

Otherwise known as a great sword, which we also already have.

Also incorrect. Well, I guess it could be argued that Claymore is a type of greatsword, but the two are not the same.

I'm surprised why you're not concerned with the other unique-ish names: quick blade, executioner's axe, evening star, and lajatang.

Well to be honest, I don't much love the name "quick blade", and Eveningstar does sound a bit silly but at least it's a weapon that's at least plausible. I don't really see why I should be concerned about lajatang though?

As for the axes, don't get me started on them - if it were up to me I'd revamp the entire axe section, but I know that not many people would agree with me so I'll just leave that can of worms alone...

Well theres the german "Flamberge" thats would work as a replacement for tripple sword I guess. But thats more of a cermonial court-sword rather than a actual battlefield weapon

Actually that's incorrect too, they were used in battle. Flamberge is basically just a regular "zweihänder" sword with a wavy blade. There are ceremonial versions of pretty much any type of weapon, but that doesn't mean that type of weapon was used only for ceremony... there's no point in making a ceremonial weapon unless it's based on an actual combat weapon, in fact even scepters were orginally based on a type of club...

I agree though Flamberge could work, it'd at least look cool while still being a plausible weapon.

[Galefury]

Keeping triple swords would probably be fine. They are pretty rare. I think most people don't really care either way.

[ebarrett]

Triple swords are cool. Some people are staunchly anti-cool, of course, probably reported the video for historical inaccuracy and all.

Double swords are 33% less cool but still cool, by the way. And "flamberge" sounds like some dessert, a +8 flamberge doesn't look very intimidating at all to me.

[pubby]

Otherwise known as a long sword, which we already have.

Nope, you're incorrect I'm afraid. Long sword != bastard sword. [...]

Otherwise known as a great sword, which we also already have.

Also incorrect. Well, I guess it could be argued that Claymore is a type of greatsword, but the two are not the same.

I don't know much about swords, but searching for "bastard sword" on Wikipedia redirects to "long sword". Claymore is similiar as it's translation means "great sword". They certainly are different, but are they different enough?

[Jeremiah]

When I first saw a double sword, I assumed it was something like Darth Maul's lightsaber - which would make a triple sword some kind of crazy propeller type thing.

[Deimos]

When I see a triple sword I tend to think of some sort of claw-esque shape at the end of the hilt. Which is absolutely ridiculously cool.

[dd]

I don't know much about swords, but searching for "bastard sword" on Wikipedia redirects to "long sword".

Wikipedia is a bit of hit-and-miss when it comes to these things. Their definition of "long sword" is kind of broad... but the distinction is clear - a regular longsword is meant for one-handed combat, and has a handle that only accommodates one hand, while a "bastard" sword, which is also known as a "hand-and-a-half" sword, is meant for both one or two-handed wielding. I think it'd be the most suitable replacement for "double sword".

Claymore is similiar as it's translation means "great sword". They certainly are different, but are they different enough?

I don't know, how different is "different enough"?

Point is, claymore is a really big, awesome sword.

[dd]

When I see a triple sword I tend to think of some sort of claw-esque shape at the end of the hilt. Which is absolutely ridiculously cool.

Unrelated, but:



Trident dagger, mainly used for parrying

[danr]

It was never obvious to me that DS and TS were meant as jokes. For all I knew when I started playing, the devs are all 12 years old actually thought such blades would be kewl and could really exist.

This could be fixed by just putting more overt sarcasm in the item description.

Agree with putting Katanas back in in lieu of one of them - the joke of DS and TS is at least not so great that you need to make it twice.

When I was watching The Tudors, I noticed the executioner used a really big sword to lop off Ann Boleyn's head. We could have a "Beheading Sword" or "Executioner's Sword".

[cerebovssquire]

Executioner's Axe 20/200/-6
Executioner's Sword 19/190/-4

hm

[dd]

We could have a "Beheading Sword" or "Executioner's Sword".

Isn't that kind of already done with Executioner's Axe? Having a sword that's also meant for Executions would seem a bit repetitive... also I don't think the "best" weapon of a class should be one that's designed for beheading immobile targets.

[XuaXua]

It was never obvious to me that DS and TS were meant as jokes. For all I knew when I started playing, the devs are all 12 years old actually thought such blades would be kewl and could really exist.

This could be fixed by just putting more overt sarcasm in the item description.

I think there is already plenty of 100% acceptable humor in the existing descriptions of said swords.

[danr]

On the topic of adding more humour - I say replace the Orb of Zot with the Rubber Chicken of Zot. Or the Lousy T-Shirt of Zot.

I think the Foo of Zot should be something random each game, and a sign be posted "The Orb of Zot is currently in for repairs. Please enjoy this one time limited run exposition of one of our other fabulous Zotian artefacts. Please don't touch, no flash photography, and please respect your fellow visitors."

In-game effects would be the same as for the Orb.

[zasvid]

Silly humour like double swords and triple swords shouldn't be mandatory in the game. I could never play Nethack because of its silly elements (and also lack of visible walls in corridors). I like to immerse myself in the theme of the game (which is a thing you can enjoy DCSS for very much, despite what some members of this forum say) and silly stuff like that ruins the mood for me.

In fact, I have previously investigated the possibility of remedying this very situation and discovered that item names like "double sword" and "triple sword" are hardcoded and I would have to make my own branch of the game with silly stuff replaced by something nicer (bastard sword and claymore were my personal choices for this too). In the end I've decided it's a little too much effort and I just won't play any long blade users for fear of needing to use a silly sword.

However, since there seems to be quite a bit of support for the idea of silly humour removal, but also some support for silly humour, perhaps it could be made optional or customisable?

[rchandra]

On the topic of adding more humour - I say replace the Orb of Zot with the Rubber Chicken of Zot. Or the Lousy T-Shirt of Zot.

I think the Foo of Zot should be something random each game, and a sign be posted

Please don't do this, it wrecks the atmosphere at a very important moment. Something like 1/81 chance of a different item would be ok.

I'm indifferent on double/triple, but if they are removed the plutonium sword can probably remain as a triple sword.

Random artefact names are a good place for humour generation. Perhaps unIDed scrolls should have use more word-like names?

[sardonica]

I wouldn't mind them being replaced with bastard sword

Otherwise known as a long sword, which we already have.

and claymore

Otherwise known as a great sword, which we also already have.

I don't think it's acceptable to use common names for rare and powerful items. I'm surprised why you're not concerned with the other unique-ish names: quick blade, executioner's axe, evening star, and lajatang.

Anyway, I think having a double _and_ a triple sword is just too much and one should be made a fixedart.

My suggestion would be for the wavy sworrd perhaps call it a "serpentine sword" or something. It looks distinct and interesting. These were used in south-east Asia I believe.

That kind of sword/knife style is called Kris. We have them in Malaysia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Because rambutan is in the game I think it'd be funny to have another Malay/Indon thing like Kris ^_^

[BlackSheep]

I propose adding a potential randart name of "Your Mom".

But seriously, the naming conventions for a set of weapon types whose sole purpose is to allow some granularity in statistics hardly seems like a worthwhile use of time. You might as well just name them "+0 moderately sized sword" or "+4/+3 awkwardly huge sword".

[danr]

I'm just reminded of the Crysknife in Nethack - I believe it was created by enchanting a unicorn horn? Anyhow, it was a pretty cool weapon, and the ability to create such an item by the player was even cooler.

Of course DCSS already has this, with dragon hides and blessed weapons.

It's interesting that some people want humour, and others want it positively banished from the game. I think this is something that just has to be left to the devs. They are doing the hard work, and if they want to throw in something silly from time to time, that's their prerogative. If you don't like it you don't have to play the game.

But, on the topic of silly, I think avoiding a whole class of weapons because you don't like some of the names is silly. So is playing a game like this in the first place.

[dd]

It's interesting that some people want humour, and others want it positively banished from the game.

And yet others are ok with humour, as long as it's applied in appropriate situations.

I think this is something that just has to be left to the devs.

Isn't everything?

[dpeg]

Let me grind another axe in favour of cleaving: it really works, I can vouch for it. Yes, Brogue and Crawl are completely different games, but you can run around in both, wielding an axe, dispatching letters.

Even with axe cleaving (let's be generous and assume the strongest version: you attack *all* hostile neighbours), you'll almost always want to fight in corridors. But there are times when not (berserk, vampiricism, buffs) and that's why I think it can be interesting in Crawl. The one bit holding us back from just trying all-around axe cleaving is that it's a huge boost to axes, thus nerfing all other melee killing tools.

[mageykun]

Look, the obvious solution to this mess is to introduce sword-chucks. I don't even know why we're having this discussion.

@danr: I'm still mildly surprised that anyone ever bothered with anything that wasn't an artifact longsword, silver sabre, or magicbane (or quest/job artifacts, I suppose). So much floor trash. :p

[zasvid]

I'm just reminded of the Crysknife in Nethack - I believe it was created by enchanting a unicorn horn? Anyhow, it was a pretty cool weapon, and the ability to create such an item by the player was even cooler.

It was also, uh, "inspired" by Frank Herbert's Dune. Probably not a good fit for DCSS.

[eeviac]

crysknife was pretty buff in slash'em iirc. my flame mages would dual wield them with excalibur.

Cleave (and weapon differentiation in general) sounds good to me.

[Deimos]

I think Polearms will remain great; reaching is just as useful as cleaving, imho. Of course, M&F and LBlades I'd feel kind of bad about; they would be left behind. I'd suggest giving them each their own little power (Something off the top of my head: M&F would get Bashing and Long Blades would get Critical), but that feels a little too gamey for my tastes.

[galehar]

Heh, this thread is going in every directions. I doubt anything will come out of it, but whatever.

On the topic of adding more humour - I say replace the Orb of Zot with the Rubber Chicken of Zot. Or the Lousy T-Shirt of Zot.

No, not the Orb. However, there was this idea of giving some reward for finishing a Zig, and I immediately thought of a T-shirt "I finished a Ziggurat and all I got was this lousy T-shirt". Dpeg didn't like it, but now that he's out of the picture ( ), I should go for it.

I can't think of a way to do this with the base stats, though, so a better way would probably be to give axes cleaving (the "hit several adjacent enemies" kind - one of the very few weapon gimmicks I actually like, as it's clear and passive).

I really like cleave. There's an implementation btw.

[Eji1700]

I think Polearms will remain great; reaching is just as useful as cleaving, imho. Of course, M&F and LBlades I'd feel kind of bad about; they would be left behind. I'd suggest giving them each their own little power (Something off the top of my head: M&F would get Bashing and Long Blades would get Critical), but that feels a little too gamey for my tastes.

I've always been for differentiating weapons a bit more. The only difference that actually effects the course of the game for me right now is "will i have to find a way to deal with hydras?", and that's about it. Having small abilities that are maybe tied to skill in said weapon would be nice.

[nicolae]

I am against removing double and triple swords but only because I wrote their current descriptions and I kind of like 'em

[jejorda2]

What if you get to use fancy footwork with long blades to move and attack at the same time? On any successful hit, you have a chance to move. The move and the attack take place in the same chunk of time, which is the same length of time as a single attack. As to interface, you get a prompt after some hits for a direction: If you press a direction, you move that way. If you press something else, the movement is cancelled. This lets you keep hitting one orc while keeping out of range of his companions. Or you can kill something in a corridor and move into the corridor before the enemy behind the slain foe gets into the spot. Or you can swing and retreat.

Flails could get a chance to ignore shields and AC on characters wearing armour, because the chain lets the ball swing behind the shield or around to the back which isn't armoured as well as the front. Maces, clubs, hammers, and giant clubs never ignore AC or shields, but they get a chance to make dents in the armor that cause damage each turn equal to the armour's base EV penalty.

I am against removing double and triple swords but only because I wrote their current descriptions and I kind of like 'em

Keep the tiles and great descriptions for an artefact.

[Sar]

I suppose funny things like double and triple swords could be kept to artifacts. And passive attacks like cleave would be a great way to distinguish the weapon classes - there's a need for balancing it but that could be done after implementing and testing it, right?

[TwilightPhoenix]

I'd second that double and/or the triple sword should be made into fixedarts and the actual, base weapons be renamed into something else. It's a pretty good compromise in my opinion.

[Grimm]

There is the issue that it is easier to remove humour than to add it (that's a consequence of having many developers). So I suggest that whoever renames the silly words to their boring versions has to come up with something he finds funny on his own.

I'd favor a move away from humour and towards obscure facts. I like the rambutan, the latajang, the quokka, the spriggan, and other such items because they are unusual and sound fake but turn out to be real. This educational approach is consistent with the move away from Tolkien and towards genuine mythological elements (Polyphemus, etc.) On this view flamberge and zweihänder would be preferable to double and triple sword.