Heroism and the skill cap...

[some12fat2move]

It's kinda ridiculous how Heroism starts turning into garbage once you get close to the caps. Particularly for 15-rune characters with one or two main skills (such as Hill Orcs pumping Axes to 26 for an executioner's axe). If Heroism could be used to surpass the skill caps then this wouldn't be a problem, though I guess that might create more problems than it solves. I think we should change Heroism to a simple STR and DEX buff, like say 1+(Inv/2)? In my opinion anything would be better than this weird skill buff we have now that arbitrarily shuts down at a certain point. (And yes, I realize the stats have caps on them too, but most players will probably never see them).

What do you think? Is this a fair point, or am I just crazy + stupid for thinking Heroism needs retooling?

[danharaj]

A strength buff would be absolutely worthless. Letting Okawaru worshipers exceed the skill cap would be broken.

Part of the usefulness of heroism is that you don't need to train everything to 27 if you use it. You can use heroism every fight without worrying about Okawaru piety after some point in the game. I still train some of my skills to 27 (mostly fighting) if I'm sticking with Okawaru, but because of Heroism I can prioritize my skills differently.

[bobross419]

Not to mention that you also get boosts to useful skills that you might not have already trained up...
Throwing for extra closing damage
Dodge/Armour (whichever you didn't train)

Additionally, its one of those things that could be seen as having helped you get to the late game.

With that said, I'm happy with Heroism as is.

[A spy]

Yeah, effectively having weapon/armour/dodge skills cap at 22 frees up quite a bit of XP to invest into Haste or cBlink

[nago]

Furthermore, not all Gods' abilities keep the same strength from game's beginning to extended - and that I believe is a good design choice. It would be quite overpowered if a cheap ability like heroism (or Makeleb's minor destruction, or similars...) was extremely good in Pan like in Lair, wouldn't it?

[some12fat2move]

Danharaj, good point about Okawaru piety being a lot less valuable late game, and therefore the player can more easily spam Heroism. I suppose it's only fair that it gets weaker in exchange. However, it still feels like a dirty trick on the player because it never mentions in-game that it won't boost skills past 27.

Thanks everybody for chiming in.

~fin

[XuaXua]

What if it boosted by a percentage, regardless of cap?

[pratamawirya]

IMO the best change to Heroism would be to let it give the Fighting HP bonus and to make it passive. Its cost means you use it in every relevant fight, and its nature is such that you activate it before these fights instead of during, so the turn cost doesn't mean much. That sounds like the sort of ability that should be made passive to me.

Interesting.

[njvack]

Hm, and maybe the passive boost level would depend on piety?

I agree, though: Heroism is cheap enough as-is that making it passive would mainly be an interface improvement. Maybe piety gain would be slightly decreased, too.

[BlackSheep]

If immediately granting perma-heroism is deemed too strong, maybe it could be a high-level power, granted at 5 or 6 stars?

[pratamawirya]

Or make Heroism power up skills more with more piety.

[ebarrett]

I think faster piety decay would be more adequate than lesser piety gain.

"Okawaru is getting BORED."

[njvack]

I think faster piety decay would be more adequate than lesser piety gain.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree there...

[The Mantis]

It is interesting to create an exception to a systemic, but this is not the way to do it. Okawaru is one of the strongest deities of the pantheon for the two Invocations and the gifts.

[cerebovssquire]

Or make Heroism power up skills more with more piety.

This was my first idea too, but I don't think making Okawaru really weak when you join him, before ** or even ***-****, is a very good idea.

[BlackSheep]

That's why I like the idea of a capstone that makes Heroism permanent. I'm not sure how well it would work with gifting messing with your piety gain, though.

[some12fat2move]

Well, one of the tradeoffs of Heroism is supposed to be about whether you train skills past 22...and if so, which ones and how far... If it was passive, you wouldn't have to think about that.

[eeviac]

worship oka for the boots of running etc etc, get all pertinent skills to 22

then swap to ash and have him finish the job

this is how I play every game that I don't go TSO

[cerebovssquire]

Well, one of the tradeoffs of Heroism is supposed to be about whether you train skills past 22...and if so, which ones and how far... If it was passive, you wouldn't have to think about that.

Let's say that once you realise what Heroism does, you don't really have to think much about it afterwards because it's rather obvious what the optimal strategy is (all except Fighting to 22 is enough). So there isn't that much of a decision involved.

[pratamawirya]

I don't know if this really matters, but some of the skills Heroism boosts are passive/non-combat, like Stealth and T&D. I mean, right now nobody activates Heroism just to make his character more stealthy and/or better at detecting traps. But if we turn Heroism into a passive ability....

[danharaj]

Turning on heroism to do the stealthings is probably less popular than to do the fightings but it's still reasonable. Invisibility is a spell for sneakery and it certainly isn't passive. Okawaru is a great god for needlestabbers as it is.

[njvack]

It'd also be reasonable if Hero didn't boost Stealth and T&D.

[XuaXua]

It'd also be reasonable if Hero didn't boost Stealth and T&D.

It is called Heroism, not Thiefism.

[some12fat2move]

Well, one of the tradeoffs of Heroism is supposed to be about whether you train skills past 22...and if so, which ones and how far... If it was passive, you wouldn't have to think about that.

Let's say that once you realise what Heroism does, you don't really have to think much about it afterwards because it's rather obvious what the optimal strategy is (all except Fighting to 22 is enough). So there isn't that much of a decision involved.

Okay, and use your executioner's axe at .9 delay instead of .7? I suppose you do use Heroism for all the important battles, but the more you train specifically for Heroism, the more threatening battles without Heroism become, and the more you have to use Heroism and risk burning up your piety (also, I believe you get less gifts the more piety you spend, not positive about it though). Granted most weapons hit their minimum delay long before 22 so this is a kind of wacky example, I'm just pointing out that a few tradeoffs do exist with "active" Heroism that would not exist with passive Heroism.

[KoboldLord]

Okay, and use your executioner's axe at .9 delay instead of .7? I suppose you do use Heroism for all the important battles, but the more you train specifically for Heroism, the more threatening battles without Heroism become, and the more you have to use Heroism and risk burning up your piety (also, I believe you get less gifts the more piety you spend, not positive about it though). Granted most weapons hit their minimum delay long before 22 so this is a kind of wacky example, I'm just pointing out that a few tradeoffs do exist with "active" Heroism that would not exist with passive Heroism.

Heroism has the lowest non-zero piety cost in the game. There's no reason to be having battles without Heroism on. You will make that piety back during the fight. In fact, since Okawaru piety decays quickly during inactivity, and you have to rest longer if you don't use Heroism, odds are you'll end up with higher piety if you do use it during every non-trivial fight than if you don't.

[galehar]

Heroism has the lowest non-zero piety cost in the game.

I wonder if that's a good thing. It's a great ability, why is it so cheap?

[BlackSheep]

If serious consideration is being given to cutting Haste, then Okawaru will not need any buffs.

[danharaj]

I wonder if that's a good thing. It's a great ability, why is it so cheap?

I think it was evilmike and others who said elsewhere that gods are in general overpowered. Do you agree with that? I think it's a valid viewpoint and hopefully you have time to review gods and their abilities to answer such questions for 0.12.

[KoboldLord]

I wonder if that's a good thing. It's a great ability, why is it so cheap?

I don't know why it's set at the cost it is, but at present it's basically similar to Ashenzari's passive bonus for having bound weapon and armor, give or take a bit and without the drawback of having cursed equipment. There's no reason to go into combat without spending a turn activating Heroism, so at the very least it would be an interface simplification to just have Okawaru give a passive skill bonus but tweak piety decay upward.

On the other hand, lacking even one ability that the player can activate until ***** piety would make Okawaru play even more boringly, so raising the cost and adjusting what Heroism does to compensate is probably the better path. More work, though, since there's more potential for things to go wrong.

I think it was evilmike and others who said elsewhere that gods are in general overpowered. Do you agree with that? I think it's a valid viewpoint and hopefully you have time to review gods and their abilities to answer such questions for 0.12.

It is axiomatically impossible for gods in general to be overpowered, because they have their own silo that is separate from all the other silos. If they are 'too strong', that just means the game is too easy in the opinion of the speaker. Certainly, deities are as strong or stronger an impact on gameplay than most background or species choices, but that's a design choice rather than an inherent problem.

[danharaj]

If they are 'too strong', that just means the game is too easy in the opinion of the speaker. Certainly, deities are as strong or stronger an impact on gameplay than most background or species choices, but that's a design choice rather than an inherent problem.

Well, yeah. Duh. I think it's obvious that's what is meant by "Gods are overpowered."

[some12fat2move]

Heroism has the lowest non-zero piety cost in the game. There's no reason to be having battles without Heroism on. You will make that piety back during the fight. In fact, since Okawaru piety decays quickly during inactivity, and you have to rest longer if you don't use Heroism, odds are you'll end up with higher piety if you do use it during every non-trivial fight than if you don't.

If the wiki is right (which it may very well not be), Heroism costs 1 piety, which is more than what it says for Makhleb's Major Destruction (0-1 piety). It also says Okawaru's piety decays on average one every 280 turns, so unless Heroism saves you 280 turns, it's going to be a piety hit. I have to agree with you though that it's so absurdly cheap that it's not far from passive as it is.

[Midpoint]

There are some cases where it can get close (high base HP, no regen or slow healing mut, bad EV/AC skills). If you only take an extra 20 damage out of smallish HP (60), you save 100 turns. The same proportion from large HP (80 out of 240) is a savings of 160 turns. If you hit bad defensive rolls, it can actually be a net positive to piety, but the expected value is still probably a small negative.
If that extra hit is the difference between you hitting o and hitting 5, that can be significant for gameplay (I at least find it more enjoyable to keep exploring, than waiting around). Probably still a small hit to piety, but over the course of a game it probably only amounts to the cost of a couple of extra animal skins or chain mails you didn't need anyway.

Also, heroism is at its most powerful when you are within 5 skill levels of min delay. Going from 20 delay to 17.5 delay is a 12.5% increase in DPT (ignoring to-hit and damage bonuses). Going from 9.5 delay to 7 delay is a 27.8% increase in DPT (same disclaimer). Note that these are also the most expensive skill levels to learn. The XP savings/redistribution can be enormous. It is a crazy powerful invocation, especially for a *, and becomes more, not less powerful with XP.

So, yeah, I don't think Oka needs to boost the skill bonus with piety. It's already baked in as it is.

As for a passive bonus, I don't like the way it would interact with spell failure rates (shields and armour skill bonuses basically). This is more of a flavour disagreement though. I can kinda get my head around you pulling off spells because of your increased acumen with your armour and shield in battle when you invoke the power of your god (active), but the passive bonus seemed more appropriate to the contemplative flavour of Ashenzari. Mechanically, I get that it is a little silly to have to doubletap 'a' before most battles, but that's the same complaint behind permabuffs as well (which, would always be easier to cast with a passive Oka bonus, which would bug me a little).