Equipment command keys make no sense


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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 23rd June 2012, 22:34

Equipment command keys make no sense

I suppose this is just something we all got used to (and it was probably inherited from Nethack), but did you ever realize how stupid the equipment command keys are? For armor, you have W for "wear", and T for "take off", while for jewelry, you have P for "put on", and R for "remove". Now, why do you need four different keys for what are essentially two commands? OK, sure, it makes the list of items you can equip/unequip shorter, but Angband has a generic "wield/wear" command which works for anything (weapons, armor, and jewelry), and a corresponding "take-off" command. Even dumber is that the commands don't go together right - shouldn't "wear" go with "remove", and "put on" go with "take off"???
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 23rd June 2012, 23:06

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Apparently having slightly longer lists is too confusing or something, and a much worse crime than having a ridiculously overcomplicated interface. I think it's bad too but some devs are strongly in favour of the status quo, so it's probably not very likely to change. Then again it might be possible to get some improved behaviour available as an option. There's already equip_unequip which lets you put on and remove items from the same screen (essentially merges W with T, and P with R), so perhaps there could be another option to reduce the number of keys further.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 23rd June 2012, 23:38

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

I think I like having wear and put on as separate commands since if you miskey and accidentally try to put on armour (a very slow action) when you meant to swap rings (a quite fast action) you are in big trouble. I use equip_unequip = true though.

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Post Saturday, 23rd June 2012, 23:50

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Something that I think would help is pointing out to new players that you can do almost everything with "i".

The P, R, T, W, and w keys are all unnecessary (same goes with almost every other key for interacting with the inventory). You can do everything from the "i" screen if you're willing to put up with slightly fewer keystrokes.

I don't think the in-game documentation makes this very clear, though. Crawl's interface isn't *that* complicated if you boil it down to just the "necessary" keys. All those extra ones are just for convenience.

Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 23rd June 2012, 23:58

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

I should also add, if some sort of "universal equip/unequip" key is desired, it should be mapped to "I". The current "I" command is unnecessary - move its functionality to the z! screen or something,

Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 04:48

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

evilmike wrote:I should also add, if some sort of "universal equip/unequip" key is desired, it should be mapped to "I". The current "I" command is unnecessary - move its functionality to the z! screen or something,


Good call. Yes please!

dd

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 08:18

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

smock wrote:
evilmike wrote:I should also add, if some sort of "universal equip/unequip" key is desired, it should be mapped to "I". The current "I" command is unnecessary - move its functionality to the z! screen or something,


Good call. Yes please!


I concur.

It does seem kind of counter-intuitive that i shows inventory but I shows spells.

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 08:22

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

This is a very old topic, which has been discussed to death, undeath, and resurrection on rec.games.roguelike.development. The essential question is: easier learning curve (fewer command keys) or slightly better permance (the shorter lists you get from W/T/P/R means faster eye focus). If you see how vi and emacs work, the answer was clear when this got decided.

In any case, everyone should be aware that W/T/P/R are not an oversight but on purpose. I am a player how really likes the W vs P separation but I also play with equip-unequip, something I could never get a default.

evilmike's idea for I is good. If you wanted to, you could for the big solution (Nethack has the same for armour): I lists all items you can wield, wear, put on. It is a menu, so you can select and deselect your preferred suit; Enter will start the process. The screen should indicate how many turns the whole operation would take. The advantage of this is that deciding (which ring/amulet/armour goes with what) and choosing are performed on the same page.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 08:49

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

dpeg wrote:evilmike's idea for I is good. If you wanted to, you could for the big solution (Nethack has the same for armour): I lists all items you can wield, wear, put on. It is a menu, so you can select and deselect your preferred suit; Enter will start the process. The screen should indicate how many turns the whole operation would take. The advantage of this is that deciding (which ring/amulet/armour goes with what) and choosing are performed on the same page.

But that would require the extra keypress (Enter) any time you decide to switch a single item of armoury or jewellery. Do people really switch an entire set of armour that often?

I'm in favour of adding a "use key" as yet another option (that will have to get explained in the tutorial *groan*) but in my opinion this key should behave identically to w + W + P, i.e. no menus please. I wouldn't use it, but it's a common request, and as long as the alternative (shorter menu) commands don't get scrapped I don't mind. I like the synergy with 'i' which allows you to read items' descriptions before deciding what to do with them, and 'I' which can be use to swap items quickly if you already know what you want to do.
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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 09:34

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

jpeg: Since it was brought up that you can do all interface-related actions from the inventory anyway (at the expense of one or two more keystrokes), I thought that having a menu-style I would help on two fronts:
* a single command taking care of WRPT, in a more efficient way
* additional feature: easier planning for full re-dressing

Yes, it requires the extra Enter but Enter is a 'cheap' key ergonomically and I understand from MarvinPA and evilmike that the additional keypress is not a main concern here. Obviously, I'd stick to using WP in general, but I would use a menu-style I when re-dressing for a new branch etc.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 21:15

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

I don't really mind that WPRT are separate (even if it is ridiculous and archaic), but what really annoys me is hitting the wrong one and having the game inform me that "you can't wear that!" or whatever, when I patently can.

So I would really like it if it listed stuff as now, but if you happen to press an inventory key it's not listing, and the item in that slot is an appropriate type for the other command, then it should still equip/unequip it. For example, if I have an unequipped ring on slot v, and press Wv. Yeah, fine, whatever, I should have pressed Pv instead, but it's obvious that I want to equip the ring, so just do that, rather than giving me a useless (and factually incorrect) message and insisting I use the right synonym for "equip."
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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 22:02

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

ontoclasm wrote:I don't really mind that WPRT are separate (even if it is ridiculous and archaic), but what really annoys me is hitting the wrong one and having the game inform me that "you can't wear that!" or whatever, when I patently can.

So I would really like it if it listed stuff as now, but if you happen to press an inventory key it's not listing, and the item in that slot is an appropriate type for the other command, then it should still equip/unequip it. For example, if I have an unequipped ring on slot v, and press Wv. Yeah, fine, whatever, I should have pressed Pv instead, but it's obvious that I want to equip the ring, so just do that, rather than giving me a useless (and factually incorrect) message and insisting I use the right synonym for "equip."


Please no... The reverse can also happen... Ring in 'c' and GDA in 'C'... this can cause real problems. Your situation is just a minor annoyance.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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Post Sunday, 24th June 2012, 22:16

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

bobross419 wrote:
ontoclasm wrote:I don't really mind that WPRT are separate (even if it is ridiculous and archaic), but what really annoys me is hitting the wrong one and having the game inform me that "you can't wear that!" or whatever, when I patently can.

So I would really like it if it listed stuff as now, but if you happen to press an inventory key it's not listing, and the item in that slot is an appropriate type for the other command, then it should still equip/unequip it. For example, if I have an unequipped ring on slot v, and press Wv. Yeah, fine, whatever, I should have pressed Pv instead, but it's obvious that I want to equip the ring, so just do that, rather than giving me a useless (and factually incorrect) message and insisting I use the right synonym for "equip."


Please no... The reverse can also happen... Ring in 'c' and GDA in 'C'... this can cause real problems. Your situation is just a minor annoyance.

I would be ok with adding an option here, but if PW are going to stay separate you should not by default be able to put on armour from the P screen in any circumstance.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 25th June 2012, 02:38

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Wielding stones and chunks for spells gets annoying if used a lot (Sandblast early on, sublimation of blood) when the slot letter varies.

Same for swapping back and forth to unarmed, even if it is the hypen.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 04:20

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

What bothers me is that, purely from the perspective of English usage,

put on is the opposite of take off
wear is the opposite of remove

Thus having P pair with R and T with W sounds wrong.

Also they are mixed up on the keyboard: W is near R so it would be natural for them to be paired commands.

I have been playing for years and I still mix them up.
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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 16:46

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Grimm wrote:What bothers me is that, purely from the perspective of English usage,

put on is the opposite of take off
wear is the opposite of remove

Thus having P pair with R and T with W sounds wrong.

Also they are mixed up on the keyboard: W is near R so it would be natural for them to be paired commands.

I have been playing for years and I still mix them up.


P = 16
R = 19
T = 21
W = 23

R - P = 3
W - T = 2
W - R = 7
T - P = 5

They are closer alphabetically. Maybe this will help you... But I still screw them up too lol
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 17:27

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

You remove rings is the only one I can remember.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 17:32

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

You poor native speakers. Now I begin to understand why spelling tests are so common in the US, and at the same time so futile.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 19:07

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

dpeg wrote:You poor native speakers. Now I begin to understand why spelling tests are so common in the US, and at the same time so futile.

We used to do this thing call "dictation" in one of my English classes. It was basically a simultaneous spelling and grammar test as you wrote down whatever the professor said. You lost points for every mistake you made, of any kind (which meant, theoretically, scores could go negative, as the assignments weren't capped at 100 words / grammatical constructs).

I once scored a 5. A five out of one hundred. Lowest score I ever received on any assignment I actually completed (0's don't count- those are easy to get).

On topic: I'm not really sure how relevant T and R are. Situations where you want a empty slot (removing corroded AC penalties, early ring swapping, maybe taking of your cloak for several armor piece wear testing?) come up much less frequently than just wanting to swap something out, and W and P do that already.

Maybe it would make sense for W and P to allow slot emptying? Something like- "You are already wearing that! Remove?" ...although that's introducing another prompt. :/

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 19:15

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

mageykun wrote:Maybe it would make sense for W and P to allow slot emptying? Something like- "You are already wearing that! Remove?" ...although that's introducing another prompt. :/

That's exactly what equip_unequip does (no prompt needed).

dd

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 26th June 2012, 19:31

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Personally I don't care that much to be honest, I usually use the mouse to equip rings/amulets.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 10:30

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

I really like the short menus. I guess when I started playing I used the i-menu for everything, but as I played more and more I started to memorize more mnemonics. You have to remember >30 shortcuts to play comfortably on console anyway, so I don't think it makes the interface more complicated.
What I reaally hate though, is that normally removing a ring takes two key presses - but when one of your rings is cursed, it only takes one key press. It happens often that I didn't notice one of my rings is cursed, which killed me several times.( e.g. when the ring you want to remove is on one of the vi-keys).

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 16:36

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

ldierk wrote:What I reaally hate though, is that normally removing a ring takes two key presses - but when one of your rings is cursed, it only takes one key press. It happens often that I didn't notice one of my rings is cursed, which killed me several times.( e.g. when the ring you want to remove is on one of the vi-keys).

Yeah, that one is a very good example of a misguided attempt to make the interface easier to use while actually making it worse, imo. Not sure what others would think about changing the default behaviour, but there should definitely at least be an option to force the menus to act consistently (there are a bunch of other similar offenders).

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 18:54

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

I think it actually does make the interface easier to use, but in a very, very bad way:

I 've experimented with deliberatey cursing one of my rings so I could make swapping the other one more convenient. I actually enjoy how easy this makes it. The only problem is remove curse makes this whole thing more tedious than it's worth. It's a perk for Ashenzari followers, at least.

Obviously, I shouldn't be encouraged to curse my own inventory just to make things easier.

So, I have two suggested alternatives: one is making it so the !R inscription (prompt for remove) behave like cursed rings do now. That I way I can inscribe one of my rings with !R and use the other one for convenient swapping, instead of trying to use curse jewllery. This changes how !R behaves somewhat, so it may annoy the zero people who use it currently.

Alternatively, allow me to hit P and then < or > (rather than P, the item letter, then the ring slot). "P<" would let me put on a ring on my left finger, swapping out the current one. That way I could simply macro a key to P<, a key to P>, and have easy ring swapping. Note that regular ring-swapping (as it currently works) would still work after this change.

This sounds excessive, but I swap rings *a lot* in games, since the turn cost for doing it is so cheap.

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 19:00

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

Having access to rings via < and > is always good: it allows you to ignore the actual item slots, even if you're doing it manually (not by macro). I support this approach because it will be less arcane than the !R option: we can explain it ingame:

Remove which ring:
< or o : ring of sustenance
> or p : ring of hunger

In fact, I thought we already did this. It's been brought up ages ago, at least :)

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 19:23

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

< and > are used.

What I'm suggesting is you should be allowed to hit "P, <, [letter of ring you want to wear]" to swap your left ring. Right now you have to hit "P, [letter of ring you want to wear], <".

This would make it easier for crazy people like me, who want to macro a separate key for each jewellery slot.

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Post Wednesday, 27th June 2012, 19:56

Re: Equipment command keys make no sense

evilmike: There shouldn't be a problem to add that now, should there?

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